>Vernon

Storms and boat improvements

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvMVMoS4btY&t=1s

 

In preparation for going offshore in May 2018 I spend almost a month in Australia working on my new boat, getting more storage built in, a new mainsheet traveler system and finally I go sailing a few times to begin mastering my new vessel.

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Looks like a good boat...im not a fan of multi purchase mainseets and jammers.

the best solution is always  a winch and reduced purchase ..2 to 1    Even one to one is used 

offshore is mostly downwind and reaching ...your system looks hard to live with and troublesome in a jibe 

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3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Looks like a good boat...im not a fan of multi purchase mainseets and jammers.

the best solution is always  a winch and reduced purchase ..2 to 1    Even one to one is used 

offshore is mostly downwind and reaching ...your system looks hard to live with and troublesome in a jibe 

I like multi purchase mainsheets, and I also like travelers.  That is not a traveler, nor does it function like one.  How do you drop the traveler while trimming close?  How do you hike the traveler while easing the sheet?  How do you center the traveler while reaching?

All you have are two mainsheets attached in different positions.  They function only as mainsheets and nothing like a real traveler.

Can you mount a traveler on the house or behind the cockpit?

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Two mainsheets will work fine.

 

leech tension is generated with the boom vang 

angle of attack is controlled with the two mainsheet system 

this system is common on large sailboats that do not carry a traveler

Its problem is the huge amount of line..two mainsheets on multi purchase tackles.

that is a lot better rope to handle in a manouver 

many modern yachts sail without a traveler....a properly engineered vang generates the leech tension 

 

IMG_7821.png

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

Two mainsheets will work fine.

 

leech tension is generated with the boom vang 

angle of attack is controlled with the two mainsheet system 

this system is common on large sailboats that do not carry a traveler

Its problem is the huge amount of line..two mainsheets on multi purchase tackles.

that is a lot better rope to handle in a manouver 

many modern yachts sail without a traveler....a properly engineered vang generates the leech tension 

 

IMG_7821.png

It’s not only about leech tension.  The traveler also influences helm balance.  My 34’ is very responsive to it.  My 40’ slightly less so.

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Nothing wrong with a traveler.

it does dictate cockpit ergonomics.

everythi g is a trade off

 

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Also remember ...cruising 

most of time my traveler is locked off in the middle.  I only use it in special conditions.

 

if its breezy...i reef...enjoy life, no stress. 

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2 hours ago, Whisper said:

I like multi purchase mainsheets, and I also like travelers.  That is not a traveler, nor does it function like one.  How do you drop the traveler while trimming close?  How do you hike the traveler while easing the sheet?  How do you center the traveler while reaching?

All you have are two mainsheets attached in different positions.  They function only as mainsheets and nothing like a real traveler.

Can you mount a traveler on the house or behind the cockpit?

Just because you can't imagine how it works doesn't mean it doesn't work, maybe put some more thought into it. It does actually function like a traveler, but even better as I now have 50cm more width than I did before. I can have my boom out further and have much more control than before. Yes, the mainsheets are longer but there no longer traveler lines in the cockpit, for me a great trade-off. Skinning my shins on the traveler and having no-where in the cockpit to sleep was a major issue for me sailing solo. 

My spreaders are swept back a fair way so my boom is never very far out and the vang holds good leech tension.

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12 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

That’s a Sayer, right?

sweet boat.

Yep, Sayer 37, launched in 2005, single owner. I'm very happy with the purchase and can't wait to get far away from land.

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47 minutes ago, >Vernon said:

Just because you can't imagine how it works doesn't mean it doesn't work, maybe put some more thought into it. It does actually function like a traveler, but even better as I now have 50cm more width than I did before. I can have my boom out further and have much more control than before. Yes, the mainsheets are longer but there no longer traveler lines in the cockpit, for me a great trade-off. Skinning my shins on the traveler and having no-where in the cockpit to sleep was a major issue for me sailing solo. 

My spreaders are swept back a fair way so my boom is never very far out and the vang holds good leech tension.

WTF?  Of course I can imagine how it works.  Apparently you don’t quite understand how a real traveler works.  You have a mainsheet, not a traveler.  I prefer to have both.

Hint:  You can have the boom sheeted to the exact same position relative to the boat with the traveler set in different positions.  The difference in traveler positions will alter the handling of the boat, even though the boom is sheeted to the same place.

With your system, you cannot make those traveler adjustments.

 

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I remember you, the photographer and anti Paetron.  Sayer 37'. Cold molded?  Nice boat. I really liked the interior.  Good life you've got.  

The traveler is called a "German Sheeting" system.  Common on some cruising boats.  You would get more trim out of a proper traveller but the comfort of stretching out probably exceeds the quarter knot you'd get.

 

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1 hour ago, Whisper said:

With your system, you cannot make those traveler adjustments.

indeed you can , you need to play both sheets to do so ..................

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So, you can sheet the boom on the centerline, with all the force of the sheet   on the leeward side of the boat?  How?

The way I see it, all the force will be borne by the windward sheet, attached to the windward side of the boat.

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picture a triangle , with a fixed base ,  that being the distance between the two attachment points .

now vary the length of the two remaining sides .

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Dual main sheets is not a traveler. I've sailed a boat retro-fitted with dual mainsheets, they're a pita when tacking and jibing. Works fine just going straight. Dealing with twice the spaghetti in cockpit isn't fun. 

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Just now, RKoch said:

Dual main sheets is not a traveler. I've sailed a boat retro-fitted with dual mainsheets, they're a pita when tacking and jibing. Works fine just going straight. Dealing with twice the spaghetti in cockpit isn't fun. 

agreed , wasn't the debate however .

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58 minutes ago, southerncross said:

I remember you, the photographer and anti Paetron.  Sayer 37'. Cold molded?  Nice boat. I really liked the interior.  Good life you've got.  

The traveler is called a "German Sheeting" system.  Common on some cruising boats.  You would get more trim out of a proper traveller but the comfort of stretching out probably exceeds the quarter knot you'd get.

 

I thought German sheeting was when you led the sheet forward along the boom, then back on the deck to a cabin top winch.

The Sayer looks like it just uses a block and tackle.

my bet is the traveller will come back at some time, it’s hard to control masthead twist without one, and that boat would really respond to decent sail trim.

we have one on our Adams, pretty much the same setup, the closed cell cockpit cushions make up the height difference, so lying down is quite comfortable.

as long as the traveller car is locked in position ....

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5 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

I thought German sheeting was when you led the sheet forward along the boom, then back on the deck to a cabin top winch.

Technically, right.  Split sheet.  Double tail.  Same concept.

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59 minutes ago, Mid said:

picture a triangle , with a fixed base ,  that being the distance between the two attachment points .

now vary the length of the two remaining sides .

Right, I get that.  My point is, the force will be applied to the windward attachment point if the boom is near centerline.  What if you want that force borne by the leeward attachment point, instead?  Or what of you want to move that attachment point more to centerline?

Answer:  You can’t do that.

Question:  Why would you want to use a real traveler?

One of my boats is an Ericson 34 with a tiller.  Before I installed a tiller pilot, I would balance the helm with the traveler.  I could go below and it would steer a straight line, no hands on the tiller, in some big blows in anything forward of a broad reach.  Just by sliding the traveler car an inch or two either way, the boat sailed like it was on rails.

In a big blow with the traveler too high, it took two hands on the tiller to keep from rounding up.  Balance it, and the weather helm would go away.

Your system cannot do that.  The sheet is always tugging on the windward side, unless the boom is outboard of the leeward attachment point..  If you tighten the leeward sheet, then you have a bit of a preventer.

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30 minutes ago, Whisper said:

One of my boats is an Ericson 34

Did you ever sail a 35'?  MKII?  Wondering about how they handle?

Vernon's probably wondering what the fuck he got himself into.

 

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16 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Did you ever sail a 35'?  MKII?  Wondering about how they handle?

Vernon's probably wondering what the fuck he got himself into.

 

I think he was just pimping his video, looking for patreons.

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1 hour ago, southerncross said:

Did you ever sail a 35'?  MKII?  Wondering about how they handle?

Vernon's probably wondering what the fuck he got himself into.

 

Nope, but I was passed by one sailing back from Catalina about 10 years ago. So I ran out and bought new sails.  I haven’t been passed by one since.  (Nor have I sailed near one since).

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8 hours ago, Whisper said:

Right, I get that.  My point is, the force will be applied to the windward attachment point if the boom is near centerline.  What if you want that force borne by the leeward attachment point, instead?  Or what of you want to move that attachment point more to centerline?

Answer:  You can’t do that.

Question:  Why would you want to use a real traveler?

One of my boats is an Ericson 34 with a tiller.  Before I installed a tiller pilot, I would balance the helm with the traveler.  I could go below and it would steer a straight line, no hands on the tiller, in some big blows in anything forward of a broad reach.  Just by sliding the traveler car an inch or two either way, the boat sailed like it was on rails.

In a big blow with the traveler too high, it took two hands on the tiller to keep from rounding up.  Balance it, and the weather helm would go away.

Your system cannot do that.  The sheet is always tugging on the windward side, unless the boom is outboard of the leeward attachment point..  If you tighten the leeward sheet, then you have a bit of a preventer.

Hi Whisper.

The force is always coming from the windward side, obviously. To bring my boom further toward or past centreline I haul on the windward sheet then tighten down the leeward sheet, creating a triangle and a tight leech.. I can put my boom anywhere inside the 2 attachment points and still control the sail shape and as the attachment points are now wider than the traveler was I actually have more control. Outside the points it comes down to the vang to help with downward pressure but thats the same on any boat. 

I have sailed and owned boats with travelers obviously, my current boat had one until recently. With the new system I have yet to sail down wind but on all other points she has handled beautifully. On my last day of the season my folding prop decided to jump ship somewhere in the bay and to get back I had to tack 24 times up a narrow channel against wind and current. It worked perfectly.

My boat also has a tiller and I have no problem at all getting her balanced enough to sail with one finger.

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I do the same thing with the main  travelor car centered.  

Form a triangle with a preventer

I use a preventer to leeward  that can tighten the leech as i ease the mainsheet. Unloads the boom vang 

works ok...and since you are always handling and shifting preventor leeds it doesnt cause to much work to shift the preventor forward when broad reaching.

your leeward leg of the  double mainsheet could cause chafe issues on lifelines and whatnot..

 

you should also do a good survey of your vang and it attachment points, they take tremendous abuse and loading when generating leech tension on a windy cracked sheet beat,  close reach  

you will notice that oceanic racers dont use vangs for this reason 

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10 hours ago, olaf hart said:

I thought German sheeting was when you led the sheet forward along the boom, then back on the deck to a cabin top winch.

The Sayer looks like it just uses a block and tackle.

my bet is the traveller will come back at some time, it’s hard to control masthead twist without one, and that boat would really respond to decent sail trim.

we have one on our Adams, pretty much the same setup, the closed cell cockpit cushions make up the height difference, so lying down is quite comfortable.

as long as the traveller car is locked in position ....

Bigger Hanse's use this system but they have it forward of the cockpit and in my opinion this is purely out of comfort not practicality. I was on a new Hanse 58 recently, hard on the wind in 15kts and the boom was bending like a banana. Funny thing is, they upgraded to  200kg heavier boom as they said the original bent like a banana. Hate to see the boom after a crash gybe. 

I have kept the traveler to hedge my bets,  but as of now I feel I can control sail twist even better than before and at wider angles. 

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10 hours ago, RKoch said:

Dual main sheets is not a traveler. I've sailed a boat retro-fitted with dual mainsheets, they're a pita when tacking and jibing. Works fine just going straight. Dealing with twice the spaghetti in cockpit isn't fun. 

I guess for racing there are some advantages to a "normal" traveler. I am very happy if I can sail for 24 hours without tacking once and even more happy if I don't trip over stuff in the cockpit while going to make a sandwich. Before I had a traveler and 3 lines(mainsheet and 2 traveler lines) to trip over now I have 2 mainsheets only and flat surfaces. I love simplicity and this system gives me that with really losing anything. 

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11 hours ago, southerncross said:

I remember you, the photographer and anti Paetron.  Sayer 37'. Cold molded?  Nice boat. I really liked the interior.  Good life you've got.  

The traveler is called a "German Sheeting" system.  Common on some cruising boats.  You would get more trim out of a proper traveller but the comfort of stretching out probably exceeds the quarter knot you'd get.

 

Haaa..., if I was anti Patreon I wouldn't have an account there. I'm anti people using it to BEG! If you have to go on Patreon with sob stories of things breaking or having no fuel filters and crying because you are stuck somewhere then I think you should go work, save some money then kit out your boat in a proper way before setting off. Still, it seems to work as many viewers seem to have amazing amounts of sympathy for idiocy. 

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Nice looking boat Vernon.

One other thing about a traveller is that it can share the load with the mainsheet and the vang across a spectrum of trimming.  It also spreads the load along multiple attachment points at deck/cockpit level. In your two point set-up you are point loading (for the most part) to one spot.  Then again, single point mainsheet attachments are not all that uncommon so I guess it comes down to a variety of factors.

In a lot of boats of this size with an end-boom sheeting set-up with traveller going cross-cockpit, the traveller is recessed in the seats to allow stretching out over a cushion or whatever...it seems to work better with a wheel where the traveller can go right in front of the binnacle, so I can see in your case with the tiller, it leaves the traveller right in the middle of the cockpit all on its own.

Anyway, good luck with the new set up and interested to hear a comparison after more use.

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7 hours ago, >Vernon said:

Hi Whisper.

The force is always coming from the windward side, obviously. To bring my boom further toward or past centreline I haul on the windward sheet then tighten down the leeward sheet, creating a triangle and a tight leech.. I can put my boom anywhere inside the 2 attachment points and still control the sail shape and as the attachment points are now wider than the traveler was I actually have more control. Outside the points it comes down to the vang to help with downward pressure but thats the same on any boat. 

I have sailed and owned boats with travelers obviously, my current boat had one until recently. With the new system I have yet to sail down wind but on all other points she has handled beautifully. On my last day of the season my folding prop decided to jump ship somewhere in the bay and to get back I had to tack 24 times up a narrow channel against wind and current. It worked perfectly.

My boat also has a tiller and I have no problem at all getting her balanced enough to sail with one finger.

I have no reason to dispute anything you just said, and I’m glad it works for you.  I see how it works, it’s pretty intuitive.

My only nit-picky quarrel was with your system being equivilent to an actual traveler because it does lack that one function that I frequently use.  Many don’t need it or even know how it works.

Smooth sailing

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20 hours ago, Whisper said:

WTF?  Of course I can imagine how it works.  Apparently you don’t quite understand how a real traveler works.  You have a mainsheet, not a traveler.  I prefer to have both.

Hint:  You can have the boom sheeted to the exact same position relative to the boat with the traveler set in different positions.  The difference in traveler positions will alter the handling of the boat, even though the boom is sheeted to the same place.

With your system, you cannot make those traveler adjustments.

 

If the boom is in the exact same spot relative to the boat, handling will be the same. It does not matter what system you use to get it there. One system may be more cumbersome to move but once there the overall force on the boat is the same.

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6 hours ago, ride2live said:

If the boom is in the exact same spot relative to the boat, handling will be the same. It does not matter what system you use to get it there. One system may be more cumbersome to move but once there the overall force on the boat is the same.

Not exactly.

Dumping traveler is not the same as dumping sheet and adding vang.  You might acheive the same sail trim and twist, but there is a different effect on the helm.

This might vary by boat and traveler location fore/aft, but the effect is there.

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7 hours ago, ride2live said:

If the boom is in the exact same spot relative to the boat, handling will be the same. It does not matter what system you use to get it there. One system may be more cumbersome to move but once there the overall force on the boat is the same.

What's the name of that movie, Wag the Tail?...Wag the Dog?// Can't remember....If you've got your traveller sheeted high side, centre, or low side, there will be three different forces on the helm...I think even regardless of main twist...so I'm gonna disagree for now. And for now...back to the football game.

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7 hours ago, ride2live said:

If the boom is in the exact same spot relative to the boat, handling will be the same. It does not matter what system you use to get it there. One system may be more cumbersome to move but once there the overall force on the boat is the same.

This is the correct answer. Getting rid of the mid-cockpit traveler is a good idea for cruising. Sure there are some downsides, but so what? The exact same trim can be achieved.

There can be some huge upward forces on those padeyes when the boom bangs around unexpectedly. Might make sure the laminate is up to the task.

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44 minutes ago, daddle said:

The exact same trim can be achieved.

Nobody disputes that.  But that isn’t the issue.

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6 hours ago, daddle said:

This is the correct answer. Getting rid of the mid-cockpit traveler is a good idea for cruising. Sure there are some downsides, but so what? The exact same trim can be achieved.

There can be some huge upward forces on those padeyes when the boom bangs around unexpectedly. Might make sure the laminate is up to the task.

Exactly, every single thing on a boat is a compromise, everything has a downside if you search for it. As long as the up-sides outweighs the downsides the I'm happy and this new system easily tics that box. 

I contacted the boat designer before making the changes and he said the cockpit sides would handle the loads if reinforced from the inside. Having done that I feel reasonably confident. Thanks for watching and commenting

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Today Im fixing leaking hatches.  The hatch seals are always OK.    Its the thru plexi hatch dogs that cause trouble.  They are waterproof via O rings.  Seems that only after a few season those O rings wear flat, compress and Drip Drip, Drip...right ontop of my head. I suspect that your hatch details are the same 

might be a good idea to buy a jar full of the correct O rings .

a set of lee sheets or some other clever detail that allows you to chill out on the windward side of the cockpit when standing watch is a nice detail.  On some boats a V...wedge shaped cushion works OK...it can be used as both windward and leeward wede

You might bore a hole then seat a drain plug , stopper in your new aft store area.  Nothing worse than flooded lockers spoiling your stored gear 

Pipe berths, adjustable bunks dont seem to find thier way onto cruisers.   An inflable beach type mat...wedge under the bunk cushion gives just enough help to keep you from rolling port starboard  in your bunk downwind and helps keep you from sleeping in as sweating ball wedged into the lee side when upwind  

mosquitos love to feed on cruisers

also worthwhile to make your boat rat proof....ss screen...all air intakes. Use strong stuff..rats can eat right thru household screen 

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We’ve got a similar setup on a big heavy gaff rigged boat and it really works well. An unexpected side effect for us is that the leeward sheet, either hard on or just snugged up works as a preventer, enough to keep the boom off the runners in the case of an “urgent” tack or gybe. 

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11 hours ago, Whisper said:

Nobody disputes that.  But that isn’t the issue.

Um, is this the same thinking as the sailor that once tried to explain to me that he moved where the sheet was cleated to change how the boat healed? Didn’t want the sheet pulling the stern around. Heh.

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5 hours ago, Mr. Ed said:

We’ve got a similar setup on a big heavy gaff rigged boat and it really works well. An unexpected side effect for us is that the leeward sheet, either hard on or just snugged up works as a preventer, enough to keep the boom off the runners in the case of an “urgent” tack or gybe. 

Good to hear it works for you too. I know exactly what you mean, I love that about it, the boom is sort of fixed in place. 

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5 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Today Im fixing leaking hatches.  The hatch seals are always OK.    Its the thru plexi hatch dogs that cause trouble.  They are waterproof via O rings.  Seems that only after a few season those O rings wear flat, compress and Drip Drip, Drip...right ontop of my head. I suspect that your hatch details are the same 

might be a good idea to buy a jar full of the correct O rings .

a set of lee sheets or some other clever detail that allows you to chill out on the windward side of the cockpit when standing watch is a nice detail.  On some boats a V...wedge shaped cushion works OK...it can be used as both windward and leeward wede

You might bore a hole then seat a drain plug , stopper in your new aft store area.  Nothing worse than flooded lockers spoiling your stored gear 

Pipe berths, adjustable bunks dont seem to find thier way onto cruisers.   An inflable beach type mat...wedge under the bunk cushion gives just enough help to keep you from rolling port starboard  in your bunk downwind and helps keep you from sleeping in as sweating ball wedged into the lee side when upwind  

mosquitos love to feed on cruisers

also worthwhile to make your boat rat proof....ss screen...all air intakes. Use strong stuff..rats can eat right thru household screen 

Damn, I have exactly that problem with the forward hatch. I found it the morning I was leaving to Europe. As I didn't have any o-rings I just siliconed it up and will sort it out on my return in May. I does take a while to find out and source all spare parts after acquiring a new boat. Work in progress.

I have measured and orders fabric for either side of the cockpit, will fix to the safety lines up top and toe-rail on the bottom. They will run the length of the cockpit. I've designed them to be detachable so in a blow I can take them off to reduce windage. They will give some shelter while sailing and privacy while at anchor. 

I glassed and sealed each of the storage areas. I thought about some sort of drain but as there is no bilge/sump in my boat the aft quarters are where water would end up. I figured if water gets into one of the areas I'd rather just have that wet rather than all of them. Might be a work in progress though.

There were two very well designed pipe bunks in side at the rear. They were comfortable but I just couldn't keep them and maximise the storage space. They had to go. The new mattresses will have lee-cloths to stop crew falling out of bed.

Yet to get onto insect security. I have a couple of mozzie nets and loads of coils. I think I'll just take a bunch of stuff with me and figure it out on the go. 

Thanks for all your tips, much appreciated!

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5 minutes ago, ride2live said:

I wonder if anyone thinks end boom v mid boom sheeting changes helm?

Well if the boom snaps because of the lousy sheeting position then yes, that would drastically change how the helm reacted;;;;

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1 hour ago, daddle said:

Um, is this the same thinking as the sailor that once tried to explain to me that he moved where the sheet was cleated to change how the boat healed? Didn’t want the sheet pulling the stern around. Heh.

Love to see that and hear the explanation, NOT!

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13 hours ago, fufkin said:

What's the name of that movie, Wag the Tail?...Wag the Dog?// Can't remember....If you've got your traveller sheeted high side, centre, or low side, there will be three different forces on the helm...I think even regardless of main twist...so I'm gonna disagree for now. And for now...back to the football game.

Sure if you pull the Traveller up it changes the helm. But if you put the boom back exactly where it was before by easing the sheet and tightening the vang you will get the original helm back.

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I assume you will be a tropical guy....sailing around in hot places.

dealing with interior heat is worthwhile .

When  You run the engine it generates  quite a bit of airflow, heat is not a big problem , marine engines run cool.

as soon as you turn the engine off, airflow stops and that big lump of steel  begins bleeding heat into the interior  or the boat for hours.

to suck this engine  heat out you need a fan system, very low power, that you turn on when the engine is turned off.

this system is typically dc brushless fan, a timer switch so that the fan only runs for one hour or so after you trigger it and somekinda  hose to air vent to get the heat outside.   Its a simple cheap system .

all weather, waterproof  air vent  systems are complex and not necessary...

a simple vent  hose to a circular inspection hatch type hole  , cut in some convenient location  in the cockpit  does the trick...close off for sailing 

 

 

 

 

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The double sheet system isn't that bad and used sometimes on proper offshore cruising boats.

If you dump the windward sheet, it will be equivalent to dumping the traveller except that you open the sail a bit which isn't bad as you are depowering. You can close the sail again by tensioning a bit the leeward sheet..

For a gybe you can use what will be the leeward sheet to get the boom on the other side and the other sheet will prevent the main crashing in the shrouds.

For a tack it doesn't work that well as you have to release the new windward sheet and tighten the leeward one.

In light winds + swell it works very well as you can stop the boom flapping around.

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3 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

The double sheet system isn't that bad and used sometimes on proper offshore cruising boats.

If you dump the windward sheet, it will be equivalent to dumping the traveller except that you open the sail a bit which isn't bad as you are depowering. You can close the sail again by tensioning a bit the leeward sheet..

For a gybe you can use what will be the leeward sheet to get the boom on the other side and the other sheet will prevent the main crashing in the shrouds.

For a tack it doesn't work that well as you have to release the new windward sheet and tighten the leeward one.

In light winds + swell it works very well as you can stop the boom flapping around.

I still prefer an internal preventor, topping lift,  mainsheet to triangulate the boom and keep it stable 

IMG_7842.png

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36 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

I still prefer an internal preventor, topping lift,  mainsheet to triangulate the boom and keep it stable 

IMG_7842.png

When going downwind with a 2 sheets system you can still rig a preventer. Not too sure about the topping lift as it adds compression in the boom for no real advantage.

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To keep the boom from going down.   You may need a open leech  when sailing .

 

if you tighten mainsheet and preventor to stabilize the boom you will pull the boom down .   Tighten leech 

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2 hours ago, slug zitski said:

To keep the boom from going down.   You may need a open leech  when sailing .

 

if you tighten mainsheet and preventor to stabilize the boom you will pull the boom down .   Tighten leech 

Why do you need to tighten the preventer? It's an honest question!

As far as I am concerned an open leech will tend to make the boat roll downwind which is when the preventer is the most needed and used. True, sometimes you want to open the leech but that is to depower temporarily doesn't work on a run and the boom will naturally lift in these circumstrances.

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Upwind, close reaching in a lumpy  sea...the boom is moving around like crazy.

 

you cant have good sail trim..leech tension, angle of attack ...if the boom is moving around 

sometimes on smaller boats, lightweight carbon booms,  the reverse pressure in the boom vang is enough to act as a topping lift.

not on bigger boats..the reverse  gas charge in the vang is not powerful enough to counteract the boon weight, inertia , as it rolls 

 

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OK, never had this issue but I've mainly sailed on boats of a reasonable size.

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2 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Upwind, close reaching in a lumpy  sea...the boom is moving around like crazy.

 

you cant have good sail trim..leech tension, angle of attack ...if the boom is moving around 

sometimes on smaller boats, lightweight carbon booms,  the reverse pressure in the boom vang is enough to act as a topping lift.

not on bigger boats..the reverse  gas charge in the vang is not powerful enough to counteract the boon weight, inertia , as it rolls 

 

Exactly where my system excels. on the wind, lumpy seas my boom can't jump around!

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Full triangulation is good in sloppy seas. Especially with a gaff adding to the momentum. 

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