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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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janbart

Get bent, let's get rid of the jackstays !

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Simon Speirs lost his life due to him depending on the jackstay. Jackstays are a mandatory "safety feature" according to the special regulations (4.04). Whenever a safety feature is mandatory we, off-shore sailors, are supposed to feel safe whenever adhering to it. I,  for one, have always felt that the jackstay is a death trap. Whenever I am, by "law (4.04)" obligated to have these on my deck I remove these right after the starting gun of the race has fired. For the sake of the safety of my crewmembers ! Why ?? The formula F equals M times A. Force equals mass times acceleration.

If the weather is so bad that crewmembers have to rely on their safety harnesses for their safety then they should keep the distance between them and their clipping point to an absolute minimum. Go from one clipping point to next ( there should be many of these on a truly seaworthy boat) or else stay inside the cabin !

I don't know who ever dreamed up this 4.04 regulation, and a great many other stupid ones along with it, but the fact is that Simon Speirs lost his life due to it. Don't blame the tether or the hook. Don't blame Simon Speirs ! Let's learn from this and scrap this very dangerous 4.04 regulation.

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Wow, you are some next level crazybait, buddy. 

I consider my chances of dying from going overboard without being tethered in to be muchhh higher than from going overboard while tethered on. 

End of discussion.

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You are wrong my friend.

I started this tipic because i truly believe that the use of jackstays in stead of using point to pint clipping is very dangerous.

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33 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

I'll believe that when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbert

Sorry for the typo's. Tipic should be topic and pint should be point. But why these offensive replies  about purple shit and rainbow sherbert ? Totally uncalled for. If this is the only way you can respond to a very seriously posted topic, for whatever reason, then please stop it. Somehow I'm sure you won't or can't. Prove me wrong.

 

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1 hour ago, jackolantern said:

I'll believe that when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbert

Bite the soap Rabbit, make him look like a dick.  :)

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I've always thought the jackstays should only be used exclusively when moving, since it's onerous to clip / unclip every few feet.  But anytime you stop moving and start working, using your hands so can't hang on as well, you should clip a second safety line to a hardpoint.   Key is having two teathers, easily handled, with good hardpoints at working stations (mast, foredeck).  I use the wichard spring clips because they are operable single handed.  Reallly helps when standing at the mast to have a chest high short tether to lean against when reefing etc.

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I agree kenny,

It is onerous to clip / unclip every feet. But when there is green water washing over the deck regularly then being clipped on to the jackstay when moving provides a false sense of safety. When the jackstay isn't there in the first place you have no alternative but to clip / unclip when moving if you want to be safe. Off course you can choose to rely on your hands holding on to deck gear and handholds when moving which is less safe but at least you will know it and be extra alert.

 

 

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2 hours ago, janbart said:

I agree kenny,

It is onerous to clip / unclip every feet. But when there is green water washing over the deck regularly then being clipped on to the jackstay when moving provides a false sense of safety. When the jackstay isn't there in the first place you have no alternative but to clip / unclip when moving if you want to be safe. Off course you can choose to rely on your hands holding on to deck gear and handholds when moving which is less safe but at least you will know it and be extra alert.

 

 

what's your problem?  rig them to adhere to the rules then don't use them as you prefer.

(not a ) problem solved.

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I don't use them either.  I carefully get to my work spot clip in, do job, unclip and very cautiously make my way back to the cockpit.  It takes less time and its my prefered method.  However, I do not require people to operate in that manner. 

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If my skipper removed the jacklines after the start of a distance race I'd wait until he was down below asleep before turning the engine on and pointing the boat back to land.

Truly not being facetious here. 

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5 hours ago, janbart said:

Don't blame the tether or the hook.

Everyone else does incl UK MAIB, albeit jackstay location/fixing  might have contributed.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a535cfe40f0b648c72358ff/SB1_2018.pdf

If you removed jackstays after starting and lost someone you might find prison food and dropping the soap in the shower an enlightening experience.

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6 hours ago, janbart said:

Simon Speirs lost his life due to him depending on the jackstay. Jackstays are a mandatory "safety feature" according to the special regulations (4.04). Whenever a safety feature is mandatory we, off-shore sailors, are supposed to feel safe whenever adhering to it. I,  for one, have always felt that the jackstay is a death trap. Whenever I am, by "law (4.04)" obligated to have these on my deck I remove these right after the starting gun of the race has fired. For the sake of the safety of my crewmembers ! Why ?? The formula F equals M times A. Force equals mass times acceleration.

If the weather is so bad that crewmembers have to rely on their safety harnesses for their safety then they should keep the distance between them and their clipping point to an absolute minimum. Go from one clipping point to next ( there should be many of these on a truly seaworthy boat) or else stay inside the cabin !

I don't know who ever dreamed up this 4.04 regulation, and a great many other stupid ones along with it, but the fact is that Simon Speirs lost his life due to it. Don't blame the tether or the hook. Don't blame Simon Speirs ! Let's learn from this and scrap this very dangerous 4.04 regulation.

I find it interesting that you openly confess to breaking the rules intentionally. Do you also RAF each of these races?

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The way the world works is, the big ones come exactly at the point in time you unclip.  

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5 hours ago, janbart said:

You are wrong my friend.

I started this tipic because i truly believe that the use of jackstays in stead of using point to pint clipping is very dangerous.

Your assumptions are misguided. I call them assumptions because something so wide of the mark a) cannot be based on actual experience and b ) are so completely illogical.

The biggest risk is when not clipped on at all and a series of hard eyes require clipping and unclipping.

Your "research" obviously takes no account of the people who HAVE been washed to the limit of their harness and are still here to tell the tale compared to the clearly rare event of people going over the side due to a deformed hook.

But you do what you want and the world may just find another example of the "Darwin Effect". 

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7 hours ago, janbart said:

But why these offensive replies  about purple shit and rainbow sherbert ? Totally uncalled for. 

This is going to be great...

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31 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Let me guess...you do your own electrical work at home?

IMG_20180113_120615.jpg

Do you know the fire hazard those clothes pose? He does it naked.

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28 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

Do you know the fire hazard those clothes pose? He does it naked.

I think he has that covered Gorn..look closely, there is a ground wire connected to his dick to preserve his clothes.. or maybe it's a downfucker to facilitate removal of his lifeless body.

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If you use an abrasive line and a Prussik line with carabiners  you don't have to unclip and you never go overboard.  You don't see it used in sailing much, I learned it in wall climbing. I will save your life, and it's not to restrictive.

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That is an amazing picture but I know those 4000 volt wires are very strong and I think that is a safety line not a ground wire, so he's clipped in.  Besides its a wood ladder, so he's clearly thinking risk mitigation.  I certainly would be hesitant to do it with an aluminum ladder or is that aluminium.   If you only touch one conductor at a time, no problem.  Darwin denied I assume?

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5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I think he has that covered Gorn..look closely, there is a ground wire connected to his dick to preserve his clothes.. or maybe it's a downfucker to facilitate removal of his lifeless body.

I've seen guys cooked by HV lines, if they leave him their long enough 1 short sharp smack with a broomstick and he'll come down as an ash cloud. High enough voltage he'll be vaporized.

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12 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

If you removed jackstays after starting and lost someone you might find prison food and dropping the soap in the shower an enlightening experience.

+1

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10 hours ago, 12 metre said:

I think what janbart is talking about is Risk Compensation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Essentially it says that while more safety equipment and regs DO save lives, they do encourage more risky behaviour.  Death and injury rates go down - but not to the degree expected.

Somewhat. They reckon that the gridiron players, cos they wear helmets, go in harder than if they didn't - and end up getting hurt worse anyway. Or so someone told me...

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I’m gonna put in my two bob’s worth here.

I hate using jack lines and tethers.

They get tangled on every bloody thing and one seems to spend half their life unclipping and clipping, unhooking them off things they catch on and straining  against them when the tether doesn’t allow you to reach what your trying to get to and I’m not sure how things would go if I was on my Pat Malone doing big speeds and was dangling over the side by my tether however I feel a hell of a lot safer with it on knowing that with crew they’ll help me back on and without I might be able to save myself. Also they really do help when, with tether in hand and pulling up against the jackline as one shimmys forward and back across expanses of deck,  to keep my balance. 

They are a necessary evil in big conditions especially at night, I reckon. 

I wonder if we can hear from peeps who can tell us “yep, they saved my bacon!”

It seems that the (extremely sad and tragic) failure in this case was not the use of a tether/jackline but the engineering/ specifications of the hook. Had the hook withstood a not altogether unremarkable entanglement with a common deck fitting the gentleman (Mr Speirs) would have, no doubt, got himself and/or been helped back on board. Not drowned.

He had a right to believe that in the fairly rare but, in the realm of reality, not totally unlikely scenario of ending up overboard that his harness/ tether/ jack line would keep him attached to the boat- no matter what. 

(Btw what did happen after he ended up separated from the boat? No life jacket? Knocked out? Too cold?)

But back to the hook. It obviously wasn’t designed for the way it was caught on a common deck fitting and loaded up sideways and bent out of shape, but isn’t the point that on a boat; if it can happen it will happen.

So it might be time to specify/engineer those hooks to handle that type of uncontrollable scenario. 

As for you owners who leave jack lines fitted 24/7 on deck out in the sun and weather when not in use please chuck them out in the bin, get new ones and wash, dry and store them after use- please. As it is they seem barely strong enough in good condition to me let alone after months/ years being rooted by sun, sea and rain. 

Stephen  

 

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7 hours ago, LionIsland said:

As it is they seem barely strong enough in good condition to me let alone after months/ years being rooted by sun, sea and rain. 

WTF? 

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“WTF?”

What bit are you struggling with, LB 15? 

It’s just a bit of one inch webbing. Sure, it’s not normal one inch webbing but specified for the purpose but hardly something that seems overly engineered when a few big burly blokes are clipped on to it and getting washed along by big waves. 

They have been known to break. However I don’t know what condition it was in.

Some people prefer to use spectra rope instead.  

That’s the fuck what. 

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7 minutes ago, LionIsland said:

“WTF?”

What bit are you struggling with, LB 15? 

It’s just a bit of one inch webbing. Sure, it’s not normal one inch webbing but specified for the purpose but hardly something that seems overly engineered when a few big burly blokes are clipped on to it and getting washed along by big waves. 

They have been known to break. However I don’t know what condition it was in.

Some people prefer to use spectra rope instead.  

That’s the fuck what. 

You may want to look up the breaking strength of 1" tubular webbing.  Even that is often doubled up for jacklines.

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10 hours ago, carcrash said:

Staying inside the lifelines is critical. If you can go over the lifelines while clipped in, you are in a dangerous situation, only marginally / argualbly safer than no harness.

 

+1.

If I go over the side and am being dragged along at 10 knots plus in the wash of the yacht, I reckon its about 90 seconds to death.

I'm 75% certain that the method I have planned of detaching my PFD from my tether will work. Unfortunately I'm not game to test it out! It will only not work if I'm unable to get an arm to my PFD whilst being dragged, which is still a significant risk. My PFD has a PLB in a pocket and I'd much rather take my chances floating it out If I decide that having my throat filled with high speed water from the wake is no fun.

Staying on the boat is the best solution...

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8 minutes ago, stufishing said:

I'm 75% certain that the method I have planned of detaching my PFD from my tether will work.

Though not approved, snap shackle tether connections at PFD work and can be purchased from reputable tether makers like Wichard.

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2 hours ago, LionIsland said:

“WTF?”

What bit are you struggling with, LB 15? 

It’s just a bit of one inch webbing. Sure, it’s not normal one inch webbing but specified for the purpose but hardly something that seems overly engineered when a few big burly blokes are clipped on to it and getting washed along by big waves. 

They have been known to break. However I don’t know what condition it was in.

Some people prefer to use spectra rope instead.  

That’s the fuck what. 

WTF is with 'months/years in the sun' - I'm guessing.  (btw - try spectra webbing).

 

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34 minutes ago, stufishing said:

Therien lies the problem for racing situations

Not compliant with CE and ISO. However compliant with EN 1095 and follow OSR - ISAF/WS recommendations for offshore racing. They are therefore no longer a problem for offshore racing, though at one stage they were.

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Great news. Id better do some digging so have some proof if questioned by a scrutineer, or someone worse like an insurance person!

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I think the snap shackle to your harness gives you atleast half a chance of emergency release if getting dragged and drowned or caught under which is a whole heap better chance than with any other set up I’ve seen (and it would be a worthwhile exercise to try them out- kite up- get it up to speed and now...jump over the side or between the hulls or off the back...solo) but I could never understand why only Wichard snap shackles were the only ones approved on tethers Afaik. Baffling

They make nice stuff, for sure, and it’s real metal not the brittle crappy stuff characteristic of Chinese (mostly) metallurgy, but some other manufactures make good quality snapshackes too. 

Maybe the market for that usage is too small to bother getting approval. Dunno. 

Anyways, not the cause of the death in this case. Quite the opposite it seems. So friggin unlucky. If only the story was different...the hook deformed, which released him from a drowning situation. The boat went back and they picked him up. All was well....if only.

Back to webbing strap. Agreed r.finn It’s unbelievably strong when it’s fresh and cared for. But not worth a pinch of pooh, nor is the stitching for that matter, when permanently rigged and left out on deck as is the case on quite a few boats I’ve seen. 

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Whilst I won’t be removing my jacklines, on balance I don’t think they add a lot of value. You are trading a sub-standard arrest system at the expense a spare hand, entanglement and the threat of being dragged under.

 

How many people get washed off in transit compared to being washed off whilst in position ? I think it is much more important to have solid points of attachment at the locations you are likely to be working. It’s really difficult to retrofit a high quality fall arrest transit system on a yacht.

 

In the Australian power industry  where workers climb electricity pylons, there was huge debate about the value of fall arrest systems to protect workers whilst climbing towers. Ironically, there were virtually no recorded incidents of workers falling whilst climbing, but heaps of occasions once in position. Where concentration is divided between holding on and fixing something the risks are much higher.

 

It’s a difficult problem and think this is a good debate.

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we need some sailing employee of an ozzie company to die in oz waters so the coroner can take a look and come up with a better idea

maybe half a dozen need to die at the same time then it might get looked at internationally ( which is usually the only time sea survival rules get updated)

( water tight bulkhead in front of the rudder shaft might be a thread as well....)

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3 hours ago, Third Reef said:

 

In the Australian power industry  where workers climb electricity pylons, there was huge debate about the value of fall arrest systems to protect workers whilst climbing towers. Ironically, there were virtually no recorded incidents of workers falling whilst climbing, but heaps of occasions once in position. Where concentration is divided between holding on and fixing something the risks are much higher.

 

It’s a difficult problem and think this is a good debate.

it's a similar thing in entertainment rigging. when climbing large trusses, there is a fall arrest system on each upright (just in case) then steel catenary wire strung above each horizontal truss for clipping onto. if working on the upright, or in an awkward location on the horizontal, everyone has dedicated work positioning kit.

I guess the big difference for us is that there's not tens of thousands of volt running through our trusses :D

going back to the deformation of the carabiner though, none of the ones we use are rated for side loading. the bow of the 70s is a pretty cluttered place, even though it's better now they got rid of the f*&%in' pole....

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On 1/13/2018 at 11:13 PM, r.finn said:

You may want to look up the breaking strength of 1" tubular webbing.  Even that is often doubled up for jacklines.

The best solution is tubular webbing with a Dyneema core pulled through it.  That way you can make it very strong, low stretch while not rolling underfoot when stepping on it.  Ideally use tubular webbing with luminous tracers in it so it glows in the dark.  With a solution like that, they last a long time since the structural core is shielded from UV and abrasion by the webbing.

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I never liked them...you trip on them, sails , deck harware , sheets are in the way..

they slide under foot 

one person coming , the other going , traffic jam.

No easy answer, every boat is different.  Its up to the operator to figure out how best to keep crew attached to the boat .

i prefer to have attachment   points in the main work areas and safety tethers prepositioned ...you clip the tether to your harness. Mast , innerforestay and stern rail. 

keeping the whole rail crew tethered is always a problem...jacklines work there.  But you have to wonder what would happen if the lifelines broke , all rail crew fall over and overload the jackline 

The best way to protect crew is to not do stupid things.  When racing everything you do is stupid.  

Crew working on the leeward deck is stupid. Crew on deck in rough conditions is stupid.  Reefing the main or striking a sail upwind is stupid. 

When cruising  you dont do stupid things and you protect the crew by choosing the correct course to the wind and waves and using your best helmsman to keep it until the manouver is complete. 

 

 

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I'd like to see data on MOBs while moving vs MOBs while working on something.  If all MOBs happen while working, I'd consider using jacklines less and really focusing on good attach points at working stations.  I've always worried about getting on the wrong side of things with a jackline attachment, like a lazy sheet and accidental jibe.

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When itis cold and wet your hands and brain no longer function well.  The advantage of jacklines is you need only one hook in.....less brain  and hand work 

its really difficult to come up with the best.....works all the time for everyone ...solution 

if its your boat , over time you get to actualy observe the use of safety gear and see  what difficulties the crew are having with your layout 

for small boats jacklines seem to be the best compromise ...once you get bigger it's hard to make them work 

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Every time somebody falls overboard and dies you hear all about it. But your never hear about every time somebody doesn't fall overboard... every time somebody uses jacklines to safely traverse from the cockpit to the bow and back... or even every time somebody slips and the jacklines do save them... none of that gets plastered all over the media. I'm guessing that the "good" outcomes around jackstays outnumber the bad ones by a factor of around 10 million to 1, but we just don't hear about them.

Empirically, I've used jackstays when offshore for 20+ years and I haven't died even once...

 

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On 1/17/2018 at 11:33 PM, inebriated said:

how about some sailing brands invest into magnetic boot technology???

That just might affect your compass heading.

 

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On 1/18/2018 at 5:03 PM, inebriated said:

how about some sailing brands invest into magnetic boot technology???

The take up has been a little slow.

 

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