McGyver

Tether clips

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I haven't done ocean deliveries for a while, so  when last summer I did one from Portland to San Diego, it was my first contact with safety harnesses in years.  I could not believe how complicated they had become.  Instead of the old style carabiners, that only required a hard snap to clip, these required using both hands.  And the weather was not that cold, trying to do it with thick gloves, forget it.

I'm pretty sure that people remember those old style carabiners that allowed you to clip to SOMETHING while you were hanging for dear life off the other hand.

 

Image result for carabiner

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I only use approved tethers and hooks....choose glow in th dark tethers.

several brands ....only use approved equipment 

IMG_7818.JPG

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Non locking carabiners will come open if they get wrapped up with the attachment point to the point where there is pressure against the jaw.

The were discontinued on safety harnesses after one particular bad race, I can't recall if it was the 89 Hobart or 79 Fastnet maybe

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21 minutes ago, See Level said:

Non locking carabiners will come open if they get wrapped up with the attachment point to the point where there is pressure against the jaw.

The were discontinued on safety harnesses after one particular bad race, I can't recall if it was the 89 Hobart or 79 Fastnet maybe

Additionally  ..alloy and stainless hooks dont  hold up well...i have a few for general purpose stuff and they are always siezed or stiff. 

Approved hooks seem to be very rugged ...zero maintenance

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

I only use approved tethers and hooks....choose glow in th dark tethers.

several brands ....only use approved equipment 

IMG_7818.JPG

Approved by whom?

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There was a lot of discussion about the MOB in Mac last summer with promise of detailed report to come out. Did that get published somewhere?

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2 hours ago, See Level said:

Non locking carabiners will come open if they get wrapped up with the attachment point to the point where there is pressure against the jaw.

The were discontinued on safety harnesses after one particular bad race, I can't recall if it was the 89 Hobart or 79 Fastnet maybe

Suit yourself.  I'd rather had one of those "non-locking carabiners" than I can clip in a second while blind, cold and shaken; rather than a "safety one" that requires me to use both hands while in a bouncing bow at night.

Edit: I may be behind the times and your new harness comes with a third hand that keeps you on the boat and alive while you deal with the "safety carabiner"...

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2 hours ago, See Level said:

Non locking carabiners will come open if they get wrapped up with the attachment point to the point where there is pressure against the jaw.

The were discontinued on safety harnesses after one particular bad race, I can't recall if it was the 89 Hobart or 79 Fastnet maybe

79 Fastnet. Gibb came out with the first hook with the extra moving part IIRC. Works with one hand but more of a fiddle.

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29 minutes ago, McGyver said:

Suit yourself.  I'd rather had one of those "non-locking carabiners" than I can clip in a second while blind, cold and shaken; rather than a "safety one" that requires me to use both hands while in a bouncing bow at night.

Edit: I may be behind the times and your new harness comes with a third hand that keeps you on the boat and alive while you deal with the "safety carabiner"...

I have used locking hooks one-handed with no problems. Takes a bit of coordination...

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I have one that would not release from a webbing jackline without the most unrealistic and idiotic wrist and elbow contorsions.  Finally figured out it was a small spur on the end of the hook, designed into the thing for god-only-knows-what-reason. So I hear you about the difficulty of clipping-off. 

Took an angle grinder to the that f*kker and voila.

But that 'biner above looks like a great way to go swimming. 

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2 hours ago, Godzilla said:

Approved by whom?

If you hook into a ss  deck pad eye, toe rail  or somehow twist the hook while loaded , you will damage it like the photo.

the common reason i throw them away is that they have been deformed.

good idea to inspect and discard damaged hooks..

 

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

I have used locking hooks one-handed with no problems. Takes a bit of coordination...

Same here. A few times for practice and it becomes second nature. 

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1 hour ago, Looper said:

I have this safety harness:

https://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/c4-components/g11-sailing/p472-elastic-tether-double

I would love some of the experts here to provide commentary on the effectiveness of the safety hook and snap-shackle.

There is a good short thread in Gear Anarchy which covers some of the questions. Your tether setup will depend to some extent on what you are clipping to.

 

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I have one of those stamped steel hooks and will have to reexamine how that interacts with my deck hardware. But I run my jacklines from stern cleat to bow cleat, inboard of both the shrouds and the german mainsheet system. It's a pain in the ass going forward and having to duckwalk under the mainsheet but I prefer that to having to unclip and reclip at the mast. I also tie an overhand on the bight into my tether to shorten it down to three feet. There's some danger the knot or the exposed loop could snag on something but I absolutely don't want my body  going beyond the lifelines. The two headed tethers just look too busy for me and I would refuse to use the six foot pendant anyway. 

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I set up the cockpit U bolts and jack lines so I can reach every part of the deck with a short tether, less than 3’.

just go overboard once on a 6’ tether, it will change your world view.

i also set up the jack lines for a continuous run, forward half of cockpit to the inner forestay deck fitting.

fortunately there are no cleats along the jack line path, my bow cleats are near the gunwhales and that is it.

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4 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I have used locking hooks one-handed with no problems. Takes a bit of coordination...

And an opposing thumb.

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3 hours ago, Looper said:

I have this safety harness:

https://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/c4-components/g11-sailing/p472-elastic-tether-double

I would love some of the experts here to provide commentary on the effectiveness of the safety hook and snap-shackle.

Personally  I don't like the yellow. Does it come in any other colours?

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3 hours ago, Looper said:

I have this safety harness:

https://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/c4-components/g11-sailing/p472-elastic-tether-double

I would love some of the experts here to provide commentary on the effectiveness of the safety hook and snap-shackle.

I have one of those, the long tether is too long.

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I think it's mandatory for the Chi-Mac race.

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Blackdiamond Magnetron Gridlock carabiner is so much better than the impossible to use standard double action hook.  I have the very agricultural standard spinlock hook for my safety inspection, but I use the belaying carabiners for actual sailing.  The finger tip control system and belay loop are perfect, although they are not as easy to use as the Magnetron Rocklock. 

Honestly, much of the marine safety gear is very 1930s mountaineering.  Way back when everyone thought a Lirakis was about as good as it got, I was happy in my trusty chest and hip harness that had taken me to the top of some big hills.  I'd rather not be dragged along by my armpits and compromising my ability to breathe at the same time.   

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7 hours ago, Looper said:

I have this safety harness:

https://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/c4-components/g11-sailing/p472-elastic-tether-double

I would love some of the experts here to provide commentary on the effectiveness of the safety hook and snap-shackle.

 

The clip at the top looks like a traditional piston clip - probably Ronstan. Those cannot release under load. Cut it out and replace it with a Tylaska T5.

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Traditional climbing 'biners tend to open if twisted around.  That's a Bad Thing.

I use the spinlock stuff, with jacklines that run from cockpit to near the headstay.  And have never had a problem clipping in with one hand.

Takes a little practice, but sticking a finger in to release the lock, then clipping in and releasing the lock becomes one smooth/automatic move.

 

 

DW_STR_02E_MR.jpg

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14 hours ago, rogerfal said:

79 Fastnet. Gibb came out with the first hook with the extra moving part IIRC. Works with one hand but more of a fiddle.

Mike Gibb introduced the double-effect hook earlier than the Fastnet disaster. That was prior '77, when I stopped working for them.

13 hours ago, By the lee said:

Instead of stamped out of flat stainless like above maybe the hook should be forged to resist bending like this....

Gibb's hooks were investment-casting S/S, which offered the same side resistance as forged, expensive though.

 

Nota: still having mine 40years ! onwards, but never had to put it to test..

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5 hours ago, savoir said:

 

The clip at the top looks like a traditional piston clip - probably Ronstan. Those cannot release under load. Cut it out and replace it with a Tylaska T5.

Trigger shackles are unsuitable, Dangerous...you cant be sure it has clicked close, hard to trigger open , it doesnt have a hook shape and its thick hinge will not shackle into some deck hardware and  pad eyes. .  I would not be able to clip into my aluminium perforated toe rail with that shackle

Use the recomended gear

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48 minutes ago, moody frog said:

Mike Gibb introduced the double-effect hook earlier than the Fastnet disaster. That was prior '77, when I stopped working for them.

Maybe it was the 79 Fastnet which brought the Gibb hook into wider distribution. Pretty sure there was much reference to them as the way forward post the race.

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You dont use the trigger to connect to hardware on deck.

Gosh, never followed on safety course ?

Long line, to use on jackline, only when on travel.

Short one, click into deck hardware when at work. (not many small yachts have good points though)

Trigger is on your lifejacket, you click it close, then use the velcro handle to wrap it around and secure it, or use tape.

The meaning to release yourself if dragging along the boat and are drowing.

good luck with the last scenario, but there were situations that feature was handy.

In all cases, test before use, jump overboard in port on a hot day. And see how it works.

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18 minutes ago, rogerfal said:

Maybe it was the 79 Fastnet which brought the Gibb hook into wider distribution. Pretty sure there was much reference to them as the way forward post the race.

Most probably true, from my memory chandlers looked as thinking "over complicated and expensive", in the early days

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9 minutes ago, moody frog said:

Most probably true, from my memory chandlers looked as thinking "over complicated and expensive", in the early days

That would make sense, but not, as was subsequently proved.

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1 hour ago, rogerfal said:

That would make sense, but not, as was subsequently proved.

Yup, Mike Gibb was a brilliant engineer, could be very much forward thinking if not always in line with market expectations.

Pitifully I can't remember which of his famous sailing connections had inspired that work.

Incidentally, Gibb had just heavily invested into investment casting, a technology shortly to be killed by Wichard's cheaper forged technology. (they successfully moved the casting operation into other businesses, though)

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8 hours ago, savoir said:

 

The clip at the top looks like a traditional piston clip - probably Ronstan. Those cannot release under load. Cut it out and replace it with a Tylaska T5.

I have the same tether. The chest end shackle opens under load just fine.

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Moody Frog said

Yup, Mike Gibb was a brilliant engineer, could be very much forward thinking if not always in line with market expectations.

Yep

I remember the little self tailing winch coming to the market - size 7 or 8. We sold loads of them (worked in a chandlery at the time) though I've never used one.

Certainly seemed to be an innovative and commercial success.

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As a veteran/survivor of some ill-advised water-skiing stunts, IMHO the tether should keep you ON the boat. Getting dragged is :o on a warm day in calm water. Can;t imagine it offshore!

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Of course I want the clip to be strong but I also want it easy to release with one hand almost more than it not to fail 

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24 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Modern tech has changed the MOB issue IMHO. Between an AIS mob device, a PLB, and a DSC VHF handheld, a mob should be able to be found.

Yah...we lost a man over the side.

 Top class crew, fast reactions...by the time we got back to the MOB he was in shock...a jellyfish...not able to help himself, not able to hold onto a heaving line

 

a crew had to jump into the sea to retrive him .

if you go over the side ..you are dead 

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

Yah...we lost a man over the side.

 Top class crew, fast reactions...by the time we got back to the MOB he was in shock...a jellyfish...not able to help himself, not able to hold onto a heaving line

 

a crew had to jump into the sea to retrive him .

if you go over the side ..you are dead 

Except of course if you are on board obviously...

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5 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

As a veteran/survivor of some ill-advised water-skiing stunts, IMHO the tether should keep you ON the boat. Getting dragged is :o on a warm day in calm water. Can;t imagine it offshore!

We now examine 'MOB tethered on' in a Yachtmaster exam. There are three things that can avoid ever needing to do this.

1/ Center line jack stays on foredeck.

2/ Spare, short 'changing' tethers at points where you need to unclip and reclip to a new jack stay.

3/ A robust safety culture on board. 

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On 1/12/2018 at 3:38 PM, BeerDidClam said:

I have one that would not release from a webbing jackline without the most unrealistic and idiotic wrist and elbow contorsions.  Finally figured out it was a small spur on the end of the hook, designed into the thing for god-only-knows-what-reason. So I hear you about the difficulty of clipping-off. 

Took an angle grinder to the that f*kker and voila.

But that 'biner above looks like a great way to go swimming. 

That spur is what actually locks the carabiner on certain types - without it the load bearing capability is probably only 1/4-1/3 of the unmodofied version.  You most likely rendered your harness a worthless POS.  Please don't lend it out to anybody.

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On 1/12/2018 at 3:29 PM, Ishmael said:

I have used locking hooks one-handed with no problems. Takes a bit of coordination...

Devils advocate, that is really a fine motor skill to manipulate. 

When your fatigued, cold and panicked. You lose fine motor skills and dexterity. That will be very difficult to manage.

 

either way every product has its ups and downs. But I’m with you locking ones are much better. 

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1 hour ago, Cape_taco12 said:

Devils advocate, that is really a fine motor skill to manipulate. 

When your fatigued, cold and panicked. You lose fine motor skills and dexterity. That will be very difficult to manage.

 

either way every product has its ups and downs. But I’m with you locking ones are much better. 

You have to use them enough so it's muscle memory instead of trying to remember how the hell you did it once.

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5 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

You have to use them enough so it's muscle memory instead of trying to remember how the hell you did it once.

Muscle memory doesn’t help fine motor skills that much. Only gross movements. Your fingers manipulating anything is a fine movement where moving your whole arm is gross. 

In tough conditions you cannot perform fine motor skills (hypothermia, stress, fatigue). critical tasks you need to remember should be instilled so they are gross movements as much as possible. IE grab with whole palm v. Only thumb and forefinger.

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16 minutes ago, Cape_taco12 said:

Muscle memory doesn’t help fine motor skills that much. Only gross movements. Your fingers manipulating anything is a fine movement where moving your whole arm is gross. 

In tough conditions you cannot perform fine motor skills (hypothermia, stress, fatigue). critical tasks you need to remember should be instilled so they are gross movements as much as possible. IE grab with whole palm v. Only thumb and forefinger.

Grabbing a safety clip with your palm isn't going to do much. At the point that I have limited motor skills I am either pulling the beads to unclip the snap shackle or counting my beads. I know I can unclip a double action hook when I'm cold and tired and wet because I have done it many times. It's memory to me, whatever you want to call it. 

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24 minutes ago, Cape_taco12 said:

Muscle memory doesn’t help fine motor skills that much. Only gross movements. Your fingers manipulating anything is a fine movement where moving your whole arm is gross. 

In tough conditions you cannot perform fine motor skills (hypothermia, stress, fatigue). critical tasks you need to remember should be instilled so they are gross movements as much as possible. IE grab with whole palm v. Only thumb and forefinger.

Fine motor skills?  Hardly.  Once you get used to them (3-4 uses), you can do it one-handed at 3:00 am in the freezing cold of the middle of a three-week passage.  It becomes second nature.

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Really hoping that the Spinlock tethers pictured so far in this thread are not what people are actually using.  All three don't have a quick release. 

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2 minutes ago, dash34 said:

Really hoping that the Spinlock tethers pictured so far in this thread are not what people are actually using.  All three don't have a quick release. 

Quick release is a knife or a tether cutter

IMG_7838.PNG

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5 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Quick release is a knife or a tether cutter

IMG_7838.PNG

Picture yourself being dragged through the water at 7 knots.  Now try to find the knife. Even if you can find it - now try to cut the tether which requires that the knife be perpendicular to the tether.

I think it would be very difficult compared to pulling the cord on a quick release. 

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trip the shackle or cut the  tether and you become food for seagulls

Id rather haul you in dead , strip my valuable saftey gear off your body , then call your mom and tell her to swing by and pick you up. 

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6 hours ago, Whisper said:

Fine motor skills?  Hardly.  Once you get used to them (3-4 uses), you can do it one-handed at 3:00 am in the freezing cold of the middle of a three-week passage.  It becomes second nature.

Agree

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8 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

Agree

The reason you use standard, approved,  safety gear is that everyone who may use the gear is familiar with its operation, defects..whatever.

this is the same reason why you only perform , by the book, standard,  approved maneuvers

 

your crew are already familiar with them , success rate will by high. 

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11 hours ago, Christian said:

That spur is what actually locks the carabiner on certain types - without it the load bearing capability is probably only 1/4-1/3 of the unmodofied version.  You most likely rendered your harness a worthless POS.  Please don't lend it out to anybody.

Wrong.  Sorry Christian, you're way off-base here.  First of all, it's not a harness.  2nd of all, not the model you're thinking of.  3rd, the removed piece has zilch to do with the unit's load bearing capacity.  

4th, I don't lend safety equipment out.  

[edit]  - hmmm....maybe you're right, I'll take a 2nd look at it.  Thanks.

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On 1/14/2018 at 6:40 AM, SailBlueH2O said:

Of course I want the clip to be strong but I also want it easy to release with one hand almost more than it not to fail 

So you'll be looking some something like this ...easy to use clips one-handed, glow in the dark release tab, no knife needed

http://www.glowfast.com/product.php?productid=16220&cat=258&page=1

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I really like glow in the dark safety gear.   I wish i could buy sail tie stock ,glow in the dark .

its probably made but whenever i ask i get ...huh?

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On 2018-01-12 at 1:10 PM, carcrash said:

If you are using a harness to allow you to, say, stand on the leeward life lines to change a sheet on a jib top, you are doing something that is dangerous.

No kidding!

On 2018-01-12 at 3:47 PM, By the lee said:

Instead of stamped out of flat stainless like above maybe the hook should be forged to resist bending like this....

0995 Hercules Carabiner

Except for the absence of a positive lock, that looks pretty good. What is the make and model? 

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11 hours ago, dash34 said:

Picture yourself being dragged through the water at 7 knots.  Now try to find the knife. Even if you can find it - now try to cut the tether which requires that the knife be perpendicular to the tether.

I think it would be very difficult compared to pulling the cord on a quick release. 

+ 1,000

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I have one of the tethers that has a 6' and a 3' leg, and my jacklines are far enough away from the side that it's really hard for me to go over, even on the low side as I always use the 3' for almost everything.

Sometimes at a pinch when I need to switch tether leg I loop the 6' under the jackline and clip on to my harness, creating another 3' leg in effect. I also use the 6' to go around the mast or boom and clip to the harness when working there.

The fact that no-one else does this makes me wonder if there is a danger to doing it that I'm unaware of - anyone got any opinions on it?

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1 hour ago, alctel said:

I have one of the tethers that has a 6' and a 3' leg, and my jacklines are far enough away from the side that it's really hard for me to go over, even on the low side as I always use the 3' for almost everything.

Sometimes at a pinch when I need to switch tether leg I loop the 6' under the jackline and clip on to my harness, creating another 3' leg in effect. I also use the 6' to go around the mast or boom and clip to the harness when working there.

The fact that no-one else does this makes me wonder if there is a danger to doing it that I'm unaware of - anyone got any opinions on it?

Just make sure you aren't accidentally creating an unsafe situation when you stow the unused hook.  We noticed on the way to Maui that a few crew were clipping the unused hook on in such a way that if you blew the quick release you would still be dragged.  Clip the unused hook to the loop on the quick release, not the stainless loop on your harness.

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I’ve got one of those super complicated safety harnesses and the complex tethers (wichars, maybe), but what I value the most is my 403EPIRB just so my fam gets closure.  I know how it usually ends when you get in the drink.

My addend

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45 minutes ago, Caca Cabeza said:

I’ve got one of those super complicated safety harnesses and the complex tethers (wichars, maybe), but what I value the most is my 403EPIRB just so my fam gets closure.  I know how it usually ends when you get in the drink.

My addend

My best argument for buying good MOB gear is it shortens probate.

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On 2018-01-14 at 5:30 PM, Ishmael said:

It has a squeeze lock. According to the picture, it's a Camp 0995. http://www.camp.it/prodotti3.aspx?CAT=32&CDV=09&B=&ART=~90

Thanks!

On 2018-01-14 at 6:57 AM, slug zitski said:

The reason you use standard, approved,  safety gear is that everyone who may use the gear is familiar with its operation, defects..whatever.

this is the same reason why you only perform , by the book, standard,  approved maneuvers

your crew are already familiar with them , success rate will by high. 

You keep on saying variations on this same theme: “use the recommended gear ... I only use approved tethers and hooks ... use standard, approved, safety gear”.

There are a multitude of different authorities, government agencies, industrial organizations, etc., issuing “approvals” for various gear; so many that the word has very limited meaning. “Recommended” is even less significant.

The gear issue aside, it’s ludicrous to speak of “by the book, standard, approved maneuvers”. Haven’t you ever heard the expression “different ships, different long splices”? There are invariably two or more ways to accomplish almost every sailing task: different methods have different pros and cons, but none are “approved” (by whom?), “standard” (whatever that means) or “by the book” (there are literally hundreds if not thousands of sailings texts, and we all have our preferred authors).

On 2018-01-12 at 2:59 PM, McGyver said:

Suit yourself.  I'd rather had one of those "non-locking carabiners" than I can clip in a second while blind, cold and shaken; rather than a "safety one" that requires me to use both hands while in a bouncing bow at night.

As several others have already said, personally I’ve never had difficulty manipulating (i.e., opening or closing) self-locking carbine hooks. But if you have trouble with this, you might prefer Wichard’s “ErgoLock System”.

 

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19 hours ago, alctel said:

I have one of the tethers that has a 6' and a 3' leg, and my jacklines are far enough away from the side that it's really hard for me to go over, even on the low side as I always use the 3' for almost everything.

Sometimes at a pinch when I need to switch tether leg I loop the 6' under the jackline and clip on to my harness, creating another 3' leg in effect. I also use the 6' to go around the mast or boom and clip to the harness when working there.

The fact that no-one else does this makes me wonder if there is a danger to doing it that I'm unaware of - anyone got any opinions on it?

I do all of the same stuff.

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On 1/12/2018 at 6:05 PM, McGyver said:

I haven't done ocean deliveries for a while, so  when last summer I did one from Portland to San Diego, it was my first contact with safety harnesses in years.  I could not believe how complicated they had become.  Instead of the old style carabiners, that only required a hard snap to clip, these required using both hands.  And the weather was not that cold, trying to do it with thick gloves, forget it.

I'm pretty sure that people remember those old style carabiners that allowed you to clip to SOMETHING while you were hanging for dear life off the other hand.

 

Image result for carabiner

Your user name is McGyver, figure it out FFS!!!!   

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Unfortunately there are no statistics to support either position, but it is worth to wonder how many sailors drowned because their safety clip got open by a weird twist versus how many drowned because their super-safe system required an instant move that they did not have.

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The former may be difficult to ascertain but I would think there's pretty good data on the latter. It's kinda hard to ignore the floater behind the boat if crewed or the tether-as-chum-line behind the ghost ship that eventually turns up on the beach.

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I believe that sailing at night and in conditions that require a harness as an extreme sport. As such there are risks. I do other things that are dangerous and probably stupid, in the world we live in. I drive the thundercat in waves on a bar, I drive my truck to fast, I rarely wear a seatbelt, and even though I have a life vest and harness on I rarely clip the fucking thing on. 

Every time I do I end up all chicken winged up and off balance so I choose not to.

i choose not to. 

I understand the risks, my wife and kids understand that I choose not to. My wife knows that when I step on a yacht to do a race, I may never step back off, and she respects my choice to take that risk. 

 

As you were. 

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3 minutes ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

I understand the risks, my wife and kids understand that I choose not to

where to start .  :wacko:

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13 minutes ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

I believe that sailing at night and in conditions that require a harness as an extreme sport. As such there are risks. I do other things that are dangerous and probably stupid, in the world we live in. I drive the thundercat in waves on a bar, I drive my truck to fast, I rarely wear a seatbelt, and even though I have a life vest and harness on I rarely clip the fucking thing on. 

Every time I do I end up all chicken winged up and off balance so I choose not to.

i choose not to. 

I understand the risks, my wife and kids understand that I choose not to. My wife knows that when I step on a yacht to do a race, I may never step back off, and she respects my choice to take that risk. 

 

As you were. 

Good for you adventure guy. Better to live free and leave your family without a father than to live your life oppressed and harnessed. If you pass away your family can take comfort that you died doing what you loved. Speaking shit on a an Internet forum.

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56 minutes ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

I believe that sailing at night and in conditions that require a harness as an extreme sport. As such there are risks. I do other things that are dangerous and probably stupid, in the world we live in. I drive the thundercat in waves on a bar, I drive my truck to fast, I rarely wear a seatbelt, and even though I have a life vest and harness on I rarely clip the fucking thing on. 

Every time I do I end up all chicken winged up and off balance so I choose not to.

i choose not to. 

I understand the risks, my wife and kids understand that I choose not to. My wife knows that when I step on a yacht to do a race, I may never step back off, and she respects my choice to take that risk. 

 

As you were. 

LOL, this is satire, right?

Night sailing in a blow is an extreme sport?  No more so than night putting with the Dean’s daughter.

But seriously, you CHOOSE not to wear a seatbelt?  That is some Grade A Ichibon stupidity right there.

As for the chicken wing thing, perhaps some practice walking and chewing gum is in order.

LB 15 summed it up best.

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Whatever. I make choices that are different to yours, at no point did I tell anyone they were stupid for the choices they make, or tell anyone that they should do what I do. Other choices I make are not to drink, do drugs, smoke, gamble etc, so are those ok?

Oh hold on, go fuck yourselves. 

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10 hours ago, Whisper said:

I believe that sailing at night and in conditions that require a harness is an extreme sport.

Jesus wept.

P.S. Sorry Whisper for misquoting you ... Alcatraz is the poster with the above view.

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3 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

Whatever. I make choices that are different to yours, at no point did I tell anyone they were stupid for the choices they make, or tell anyone that they should do what I do. Other choices I make are not to drink, do drugs, smoke, gamble etc, so are those ok?

Oh hold on, go fuck yourselves. 

Well, as someone who defended automobile manufacturers for decades in product liability lawsuits, damn right you better wear your seatbelt.  The minute you're ejected from the vehicle and splattered across the tarmac, and some dumbass lawyer tells your heirs to sue everybody else involved in the accident, and the product manufacturers, they you've fucked up a lot of lives in addition to those of your heirs.  I don't care what else you do in life, but wear that fucking seatbelt!

 

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6 hours ago, Whisper said:

Well, as someone who defended automobile manufacturers for decades in product liability lawsuits, damn right you better wear your seatbelt.  The minute you're ejected from the vehicle and splattered across the tarmac, and some dumbass lawyer tells your heirs to sue everybody else involved in the accident, and the product manufacturers, they you've fucked up a lot of lives in addition to those of your heirs.  I don't care what else you do in life, but wear that fucking seatbelt!

 

This is my point. My heirs know I'm a dumbass who makes choices in life that most people don't. They won't sue anybody as they respect the choices I make. 

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24 minutes ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

This is my point. My heirs know I'm a dumbass who makes choices in life that most people don't. They won't sue anybody as they respect the choices I make. 

It looks to me like you want to die, you just don't want to do it outright.  So you engage in risky behaviors, the seatbelt thing bring the worse, knowing that your luck will run out at some point.  Whatever, life is about choice.

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3 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

Whatever, life is about choice.

and the children probably choose to have a father .

 

now lets stop feeding the troll .

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12 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

Whatever. I make choices that are different to yours, at no point did I tell anyone they were stupid for the choices they make, or tell anyone that they should do what I do. Other choices I make are not to drink, do drugs, smoke, gamble etc, so are those ok?

Oh hold on, go fuck yourselves. 

Ah you don't drink. Now it makes sense.

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2 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

. My heirs know I'm a dumbass who makes choices in life that most people don't. 

Your heirs know they will be inheriting sooner rather than later. But I doubt anyone as stupid as you could have made much of their life so no point in them getting too excited.

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Holy shit guys, this is sailing "anarchy" remember. I choose to live my life a little differently and take different risks and suddenly I'm a suicidal cunt with no feelings and who has made nothing of my life? 

I just know and understand the risks I take. I don't jump in a car and buckle up and then believe that now I am invincible, I don't clip on and suddenly leave my life in the harnesses hand, thinking that I am perfectly safe with no risk at all. 

Do any of you guys ride bikes and share the road with cars?

any of you have a few to many and drive home? 

Whatever. 

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1 hour ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

Holy shit guys, this is sailing "anarchy" remember. I choose to live my life a little differently and take different risks and suddenly I'm a suicidal cunt with no feelings and who has made nothing of my life? 

I just know and understand the risks I take. I don't jump in a car and buckle up and then believe that now I am invincible, I don't clip on and suddenly leave my life in the harnesses hand, thinking that I am perfectly safe with no risk at all. 

Do any of you guys ride bikes and share the road with cars?

any of you have a few to many and drive home? 

Whatever. 

Motorcycles?  No.

Drive drunk? No, Never. After even one small one? Of course not.

 Is that clear, now? Driving for well over thirty years, lost count of how many different countries (one of them NZ, BTW.. .), and have never, ever got behind the wheel (or ridden a bike) after a drink.

 Get a grip, son.

Cheers,

                  W.

Edited by WGWarburton
Added local detail

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1 hour ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

Whatever. 

exactly the respect you show your children .

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1 hour ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

Do any of you guys ride bikes and share the road with cars?

any of you have a few to many and drive home? 

Whatever. 

Not any more; and no, never in my lifetime of driving. 

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2 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

Holy shit guys, this is sailing "anarchy" remember. I choose to live my life a little differently and take different risks and suddenly I'm a suicidal cunt with no feelings and who has made nothing of my life? 

I just know and understand the risks I take. I don't jump in a car and buckle up and then believe that now I am invincible, I don't clip on and suddenly leave my life in the harnesses hand, thinking that I am perfectly safe with no risk at all. 

Do any of you guys ride bikes and share the road with cars?

any of you have a few to many and drive home? 

Whatever. 

Do what ever you want and let your family grieve for it.

BUT DON'T BE A SELFISH CUNT AND KILL SOMEBODY ELSE!

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6 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

Holy shit guys, this is sailing "anarchy" remember. I choose to live my life a little differently and take different risks and suddenly I'm a suicidal cunt with no feelings and who has made nothing of my life? 

I just know and understand the risks I take. I don't jump in a car and buckle up and then believe that now I am invincible, I don't clip on and suddenly leave my life in the harnesses hand, thinking that I am perfectly safe with no risk at all. 

Do any of you guys ride bikes and share the road with cars?

any of you have a few to many and drive home? 

Whatever. 

Well, since you asked. I got my motorcycle license from Mr Mellsop in New Lynn in 1961. Can I assume you know where that is? It flooded a bit not too long ago. Zero crashes on the public highways for me. Rode a bike in Hawaii, OR and WA, IOM, Scotland, England, NZ and currently Canada. Was pissing down yesterday when I returned from the Vancouver boat show. I recently started a thread about safety gear. That is our theme for this years cruise.  I was the passenger in a pick up, that turned in front of a Pontiac doing 50 mph. Hit my door. I was wearing my seat belt and was mostly unscathed.

I am lenient enough to give you some time to work on your safety procedures. For a while I was thinking you might be George Wilder reincarnated. BTW. I played for Suburbs. How about you?

Unkle Krusty

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My point being, we choose our own risks. I'm just honest with myself and my loved ones about what they are. Most people look at the risks that others take and think they are lunatics whilst at the same time ignoring the risks they put themselves in to do the things that they love and that makes them feel alive. 

Good on you for riding motorbikes for years, I believ