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dylan winter

Will the American political system need tweaking post Trump?

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Dear Americans,

As an interested observer from across the seas I have watched the current disruption with much interest.  I am 62 and have never really paid much attention to the way the American system works... it has held up pretty well over the years - it has been robust, it has listened to the people most of the time and has stood out against fascism. Well done.

Also as a  Brit I feel a sort of Debt..inherited from my Parents.  They both knew that they  owed America for saving us from Fascism.   I also feel that debt.. Had it not been for the yanks intervening twice in European conflicts I would almost certainly be fluent in German because if the Kaiser had not had us Hitler would have  for sure.  A greater europe would have emerged - using German language and German laws.

Trump might turn out to be a blip in the  system that will correct itself - maybe not. The man certainly sounds like a fascist to me.   I think less of America for having put him in power. Does that matter.... well I assume that most Europeans feel the same. America has been diminished and tarnished by Trump - at least on the World stage. What he does to your gun laws, your health system, your infrastructure does not matter a jot to me. What he does with the power of the military is of massive importance.

  We, like the Aussies, Canucks and Kiwis run a parliamentary system with a leader elected by the members of the party. As soon as the leader becomes an electoral liability then that leader can be swapped out within around six weeks and the whole direction of the part in power can change.   We also have a mechanism for calling snap elections. One vote of no confidence in Parliament - a simple majority and an election is called.   America has a balance between president, senate and House of Representatives.   That is, as I understand it, is the theory. 

That balance would seem to be under some pressure at the moment. .         All I can say is that I, as an old, well educated,  Englishman feel that my faith in America to do the right thing is being diminished. 

Trump is a creature of the web, of youtube, of twitter, of blogs and podcasts.     Maybe Brexit is too.

How might the American system, and the parliamentary system, get tweaked to deal with something as dramatic as what I am doing right now - using the web to communicate with maybe 200 Americans almost face to face.  Certainly as close as pen friends.

But also in this space we have some really divisive sock puppets and genuinely angry people. The voice of the intemperate has got louder.  

  I filmed a few Trump blogs and the films were attacked by the Pepe people - who was really behind those hateful disgusting things written on my youtube channel I will never know. But this is new.

I think that the Parliamentary system might need some tweaking to deal with the web which is changing society and is now being (hateful word) "weaponised".

Does the American political system need changing in any way? In what way?

Dylan

PS - the Queen is utterly irrelevant to the smooth working of the system - she is merely a puppet of Parliament - that issue was sorted in our own civil war.

ktl_8_17_Still028.jpg

 

https://ibb.co/igbaZm

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I dont see any defects.

states are governed to the satisfaction of state residents.

the Federal government does an excellent job coordinating the states and defining rules. 

it has worked well

just compare  the performance of Brussels, Europe  ...with that of Washington Dc, the USA

 

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Our winner-take-all elections drive the two party system and much of the left/right polarization but what we're seeing now is a political backlash of elites who fear egalitarianism--powered by populist white nationalism. It's pretty bad, but I think we'll be ok. A black president, the black lives matter movement, gay marriage, stagnant wages, addiction, etc., have drawn a lot of mouth breathers out of the woodwork but their arguments are so flawed and their leaders so inept the movement will implode. It already is. As an example, a simple issue like legal pot is proving to be too much for a coalition of corporate elites, evangelicals, and anti-immigrant blue collar workers who will need medicare and social security.

This book looks more concerned:

How Democracies Die

A bracing, revelatory look at the demise of liberal democracies around the world—and a road map for rescuing our own
 
Donald Trump’s presidency has raised a question that many of us never thought we’d be asking: Is our democracy in danger? Harvard professors Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt have spent more than twenty years studying the breakdown of democracies in Europe and Latin America, and they believe the answer is yes. Democracy no longer ends with a bang—in a revolution or military coup—but with a whimper: the slow, steady weakening of critical institutions, such as the judiciary and the press, and the gradual erosion of long-standing political norms. The good news is that there are several exit ramps on the road to authoritarianism. The bad news is that, by electing Trump, we have already passed the first one.

Drawing on decades of research and a wide range of historical and global examples, from 1930s Europe to contemporary Hungary, Turkey, and Venezuela, to the American South during Jim Crow, Levitsky and Ziblatt show how democracies die—and how ours can be saved.

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Agree with the essay and love the pic , perfect reason to go for a sail .

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6 minutes ago, Mid said:

Agree with the essay and love the pic , perfect reason to go for a sail .

Scotland - the Island of Handa

some-one should make a film about it

So, do you think the system will need tweaking in some way -

 

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1 minute ago, dylan winter said:

So, do you think the system will need tweaking in some way -

I'm wondering IF the lesson of protest voting will be learned ?

Appears to be a given that trump did not expect to win , and should not have .

However the famed 3 branches of government whilst under strain are holding currently .

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so Trump was just a protest vote gone wrong?

However, as a Brit "The Base" is still frighteningly big and solid.  It implies extremely upset people or extremely stupid people. Either way it suggests that the system is not working for them - around 30 per cent of American continue to think he is a good thing.

That is bloomin scary and one of the reasons why America is diminished as viewed from this side of the Atlantic

D

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22 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

so Trump was just a protest vote gone wrong?

However, as a Brit "The Base" is still frighteningly big and solid.  It implies extremely upset people or extremely stupid people. Either way it suggests that the system is not working for them - around 30 per cent of American continue to think he is a good thing.

That is bloomin scary and one of the reasons why America is diminished as viewed from this side of the Atlantic

D

Trump is exactly what everyone wanted. Left and Right have been heard to say "I am tired of the politician" "this candidate is next in line" 'She deserves it" , "we need a citizen statesman to go to Washington', " I am tired of career politicians" ad infinitum........ The left has put forth the same old tired Pols, Sanders being the exception. and the poeple didn't buy it. 

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19 minutes ago, warbird said:

Trump is exactly what everyone wanted. Left and Right have been heard to say "I am tired of the politician" "this candidate is next in line" 'She deserves it" , "we need a citizen statesman to go to Washington', " I am tired of career politicians" ad infinitum........ The left has put forth the same old tired Pols, Sanders being the exception. and the poeple didn't buy it. 

uh everyone? It's amazing the world you live in.  But keep thinking Trump will be reelected, it's just so cute to witness someone so naive. 

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Everybody is saying it is a clasic Trumpian Trope

However, that aside, has everyone learned a lesson....

There seems to be a rock solid 30 plus per cent who seem perfectly happy with him....

 

 

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9 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

Everybody is saying it is a clasic Trumpian Trope

However, that aside, has everyone learned a lesson....

There seems to be a rock solid 30 plus per cent who seem perfectly happy with him....

 

 

There's a rock solid 30% who'd think that the chocolate pie that the hired help just served them was just divine! Until they found out that it contained human feces.

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In the grand scheme of things, Trump isn’t the problem with our current political system. He’s a weird blip that’ll go away in a few years. 

The problem is that the two parties have gone so hard to each side. There is no working together to make good decisions. 

There are good liberal ideas, and good conservative ideas. Unfortunately, there is no combining of the two anytime soon. 

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2 minutes ago, Monkey said:

In the grand scheme of things, Trump isn’t the problem with our current political system. He’s a weird blip that’ll go away in a few years. 

The problem is that the two parties have gone so hard to each side. There is no working together to make good decisions. 

There are good liberal ideas, and good conservative ideas. Unfortunately, there is no combining of the two anytime soon. 

I wonder if the  web has facilitated and exacerbated that split

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3 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

I wonder if the  web has facilitated and exacerbated that split

Absolutely. Along with every media avenue. They’ve driven it to the point that you almost have to be extreme left or right to get through primaries. Rational candidates get torn apart early. 

Edit:  Forgot to mention another big offender, campaign financing. 

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15 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

There's a rock solid 30% who'd think that the chocolate pie that the hired help just served them was just divine! Until they found out that it contained human feces.

!!! So you ate at Mar a Lago too?

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The political system in the US of A has needed tweaking for some time

and the tweak is to remove the MASSIVE amounts of money from the system, which will likely never happen....

Too many politicians getting rich......

Ask Paul Ryan how to become a millionaire as a congress critter....

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11 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

I wonder if the  web has facilitated and exacerbated that split

It is certainly a good way to spread false information.  But ultimately the blame lies squarely with the fools that voted for Trump.  I believe the typical Trump voter falls into one of two categories.  The first category are hte people who feel marginalized and ignored.  I am not alking about the poor and minorities, I am talking about the working folk, the not so intelligent people, average white folks that feel they are getting shafted.  Probably fundamentally good people that are just misguided and prone to believing outrageous shit.  Basic Republican voters.  The other group are the venal, greedy, sociopath motherfuckers that saw Trump as one of them and they tripped over each other in the hopes that he would get elected and they could cash in big time.  

Trump exploited the first group's fears and the second group's greed.   Both groups are starting to see the light and when the shit hits the fan and Trump has to leave in disgrace, it isn't going to be pretty.  The average voters are going to relalize they got screwed and the rich folk will be pissed because the gravy train will stop.  The Republican party will never be the same, they will bear the shitstain of the Trump presidency for a long time to come.

There ain't enough schadenfruede in the world...

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37 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

Everybody is saying it is a clasic Trumpian Trope

However, that aside, has everyone learned a lesson....

There seems to be a rock solid 30 plus per cent who seem perfectly happy with him....

 

 

remember that it's only 30% of those who voted. The USA has one of the lowest participation rates in the developed world. 59%

It will be interesting to see if the registration numbers increase. Trumps actions may well galvanise the young and those with voting obstacles to get out and vote.  

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25 minutes ago, Monkey said:

In the grand scheme of things, Trump isn’t the problem with our current political system. He’s a weird blip that’ll go away in a few years. 

The problem is that the two parties have gone so hard to each side. There is no working together to make good decisions. 

There are good liberal ideas, and good conservative ideas. Unfortunately, there is no combining of the two anytime soon. 

The left really isn’t hard left by world views.  They make the hard right uncomfortable with abortion and not stoning gays.    The hard right is a Christian Iran, the left a moderate and Hilliary  a conservative Germany maybe?    Gerrymandered districts and the primary system select for extremes more comfortable than The median electorate.   

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19 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

 ultimately the blame lies squarely with the fools that voted for Trump. 

hear , hear .

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1 minute ago, dylan winter said:

half of the Mercan electorate are fools!

doesn't work like that , remember there is not compulsory voting .

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3 minutes ago, Lark said:

The left really isn’t hard left by world views.  They make the hard right uncomfortable with abortion and not stoning gays.    The hard right is a Christian Iran, the left a moderate and Hilliary  a conservative Germany maybe?    Gerrymandered districts and the primary system select for extremes more comfortable than The median electorate.   

Thanks for making my point. Of course, it’s only “the other side” that’s stubborn. I hate to break it to you, but I’m a conservative that supports gay marriage and a woman’s right to choose to abort. Any more examples you want to provide of how the media has trained you?

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4 minutes ago, Lark said:

The left really isn’t hard left by world views.  They make the hard right uncomfortable with abortion and not stoning gays.    The hard right is a Christian Iran, the left a moderate and Hilliary  a conservative Germany maybe?    Gerrymandered districts and the primary system select for extremes more comfortable than The median electorate.   

A good part of the problem is the Democrats run on hopes and dreams, they want to fix things, make the world a better place, and the conservatives just hear that the Democrats want to increase taxes and spend monney on social programs.  The Republicans campaign on fear.  Foreigners want to kill us, minorities want to kill us, the world is bad, we need to be strong, people on food stamps that you payed for are eating steaks every night, etc.   Sadly, to many people fear is a much stronger motivator than rainbows and unicorns.

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1 minute ago, dylan winter said:

half the American voters then

close BUT there is still the biased electoral college .

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The computer age and data mining make gerrymandering a district more effective than it was in the smoke filled rooms of old.   My county smothers a slightly smaller  number of progressives a hundred miles away.    Social media allow a few paid trolls to reach more people and organizes the unpaid lemmings,   The tinfoil hats aren’t immediately noticed.   Voter intimidation acts are equally scientific, the same people that can figure out exactly where to put that dollar store to harvest the last bit of blue collar money can figure out polling station hours and ID requirements to minimize the ability of the wrong voters to participate,   

I’ve been trying to understand how this era is different from the gilded era.  

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4 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Thanks for making my point. Of course, it’s only “the other side” that’s stubborn. I hate to break it to you, but I’m a conservative that supports gay marriage and a woman’s right to choose to abort. Any more examples you want to provide of how the media has trained you?

Around here that makes you a crazy liberal like me.  Do you also believe in climate change?   That would make you borderline dangerous.   

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Just now, Lark said:

Around here that makes you a crazy liberal like me.  Do you also believe in climate change?   That would make you borderline dangerous.   

I believe in climate change, just maybe not your preferred definition. How much is man made versus the cyclical nature of our planet is still up in the air to me. However, I’m an avid environmentalist regardless. Enjoy that mind fuck. 

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2 hours ago, dylan winter said:

so Trump was just a protest vote gone wrong?

 

I think hes doing fine judging by the whinging going on here.

Dont worry though, just give us a ring the next time you pussys cant defend yourselves and the USA will come to rescue you , again..

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1 minute ago, Moderate said:

I think hes doing fine judging by the whinging going on here.

Dont worry though, just give us a ring the next time you pussys cant defend yourselves and the USA will come to rescue you , again..

lowering the tone again - nice discussion and you come and shit on it. A point well made there old chap.

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2 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I believe in climate change, just maybe not your preferred definition. How much is man made versus the cyclical nature of our planet is still up in the air to me. However, I’m an avid environmentalist regardless. Enjoy that mind fuck. 

socially liberal, economically conservative.

actually not that hard to understand.

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6 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I believe in climate change, just maybe not your preferred definition. How much is man made versus the cyclical nature of our planet is still up in the air to me. However, I’m an avid environmentalist regardless. Enjoy that mind fuck. 

Everything you said is cool.   Everything you said is flat against the Republican platform.  In rural conservative areas it would be enough to make you a presumed tinfoil hat salesman.   If you also want to balance the budget and aren’t eager for a new war, what makes you call yourself a Republican?   

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1 hour ago, warbird said:

Trump is exactly what everyone wanted.

Bullshit - Trump is what 27% of the people wanted.

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5 minutes ago, Lark said:

Everything you said is cool.   Everything you said is flat against the Republican platform.  In rural conservative areas it would be enough to make you a presumed tinfoil hat salesman.   If you also want to balance the budget and aren’t eager for a new war, what makes you call yourself a Republican?   

It’s only some of the financial decisions that cause me to vote right. Meli described me perfectly, oddly in the exact way I’ve described myself in the past. 

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14 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

socially liberal, economically conservative.

Make up your mind - that saying is just an easy cop-out.

Social policies cost money - you can't have it both ways.

Economically responsible is a different matter. Conservative economic policies aren't that in my experience.

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15 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

lowering the tone again - nice discussion and you come and shit on it. A point well made there old chap.

Just telling the truth.

You dont understand that most Americans dont give a fuck about what Europe thinks.

We do care about the % of your GDP that you spend on defense per NATO agreements.

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1 hour ago, warbird said:

Trump is exactly what everyone wanted. Left and Right have been heard to say "I am tired of the politician" "this candidate is next in line" 'She deserves it" , "we need a citizen statesman to go to Washington', " I am tired of career politicians" ad infinitum........ The left has put forth the same old tired Pols, Sanders being the exception. and the poeple didn't buy it. 

At no point did anyone rational say, "I am tired of politicians, let's elect a fucking idiot." Although that was the end result. 

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7 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Bullshit - Trump is what 27% of the people wanted.

Got a cite for that?

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2 minutes ago, Moderate said:

Just telling the truth.

You dont understand that most Americans dont give a fuck about what Europe thinks.

We do care about the % of your GDP that you spend on defense per NATO agreements.

and that percentage will depend on what the europeans think of American leadership

so it does matter what europeans think even by your measuring stick

maybe most americans don't care about either issue.

you are a political genius

 

Dylan - real name

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4 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Make up your mind - that saying is just an easy cop-out.

Social policies cost money - you can't have it both ways.

Economically responsible is a different matter. Conservative economic policies aren't that in my experience.

But your experience is the US experience.

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Make up your mind - that saying is just an easy cop-out.

Social policies cost money - you can't have it both ways.

Economically responsible is a different matter. Conservative economic policies aren't that in my experience.

I hate you for making me defend her. She was right. Specifically referring to her explanation of me. How does gay marriage cost me money?  I don’t even mind “reasonable” costs due to environmental concerns. 

Rational people confuse people on PA. 

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9 minutes ago, bhyde said:

At no point did anyone rational say, "I am tired of politicians, let's elect a fucking idiot." Although that was the end result. 

Actually, that was exactly why I voted Trump. I’m hoping the two parties learn from this shit show and give us real leaders to choose from next time. 

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12 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

and that percentage will depend on what the europeans think of American leadership

so it does matter what europeans think even by your measuring stick

maybe most americans don't care about either issue.

you are a political genius

 

Dylan - real name

Europes NATO spending is for Europes defense, so that America doesnt have to pay in blood and treasure the next time the Kaiser comes knocking

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9 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Actually, that was exactly why I voted Trump. I’m hoping the two parties learn from this shit show and give us real leaders to choose from next time. 

I'm hoping Trump's eventual conviction, imprisonment and/or execution for treason will send the same message to the two parties.  So that's great we're on the same page.

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Many Americans hate europe because of your thankless response for the blood we spilt 

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1 minute ago, Moderate said:

Many Americans hate europe because of your thankless response for the blood we spilt 

Many  people are saying it

 

are you from the Ukraine?

 

Dylan

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Just now, bhyde said:

I'm hoping Trump's eventual conviction, imprisonment and/or execution for treason will send the same message to the two parties.  So that great we're on the same page.

Not sure I agree. If he gets impeached, we get dingbat in charge, who might be able to ride a booming economy to reelection. I’d rather see Trump cope with a primary on reelection. 

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3 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

Many  people are saying it

 

are you from the Ukraine?

 

Dylan

Im from fuckin Chicago

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Just now, dylan winter said:

Many  people are saying it

 

are you from the Ukraine?

 

Dylan

You'll have excuse Moderate. His thinking is a bit askew since his doctor has prescribed such a strong dose of fentanyl. It seems that being that stupid is incredibly painful.

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

In the grand scheme of things, Trump isn’t the problem with our current political system. He’s a weird blip that’ll go away in a few years. 

The problem is that the two parties have gone so hard to each side. There is no working together to make good decisions. 

There are good liberal ideas, and good conservative ideas. Unfortunately, there is no combining of the two anytime soon. 

As opposed to the UK, where both sides are stealing each other’s policies and sitting on the same fence at times, it’s a miracle they all don’t have fence posts stuck up their arses. 

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3 hours ago, dylan winter said:

so Trump was just a protest vote gone wrong?

However, as a Brit "The Base" is still frighteningly big and solid.  It implies extremely upset people or extremely stupid people. Either way it suggests that the system is not working for them - around 30 per cent of American continue to think he is a good thing.

That is bloomin scary and one of the reasons why America is diminished as viewed from this side of the Atlantic

D

There are a lot of 30% groups in the UK, starting with the 30% that don’t vote. 

Thats far more frightening. 

Our system needs tweaking, and a massive shaking by the throat. 

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1 hour ago, badlatitude said:
2 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

There's a rock solid 30% who'd think that the chocolate pie that the hired help just served them was just divine! Until they found out that it contained human feces.

!!! So you ate at Mar a Lago too?

 

 

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48 minutes ago, bhyde said:

At no point did anyone rational say, "I am tired of politicians, let's elect a fucking idiot." Although that was the end result. 

Well........having nominated Hillary, the choice was pretty obvious to the electoral college...........:lol:

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

remember that it's only 30% of those who voted. The USA has one of the lowest participation rates in the developed world. 59%

It will be interesting to see if the registration numbers increase. Trumps actions may well galvanise the young and those with voting obstacles to get out and vote.  

I believe we’ve had similar turn outs at various UK elections, and don’t even ask about the polling for the voting of MEPs

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1 hour ago, dylan winter said:

that is a bitter pill

 

half of the Mercan electorate are fools!

How did you vote on Brexit?

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

socially liberal, economically conservative.

actually not that hard to understand.

A good description. 

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

It’s only some of the financial decisions that cause me to vote right. Meli described me perfectly, oddly in the exact way I’ve described myself in the past. 

You maybe the first Trump/right wing voter here that it’s possible to converse with. 

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Concentration camps with efficient solar powered furnaces.  Initially I thought reeducation camps were the right move, but these deplorables are untrainable.  Best to just remove them.

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2 hours ago, Lark said:
3 hours ago, Monkey said:

I believe in climate change, just maybe not your preferred definition. How much is man made versus the cyclical nature of our planet is still up in the air to me. However, I’m an avid environmentalist regardless. Enjoy that mind fuck. 

Everything you said is cool.   Everything you said is flat against the Republican platform.  In rural conservative areas it would be enough to make you a presumed tinfoil hat salesman.   If you also want to balance the budget and aren’t eager for a new war, what makes you call yourself a Republican?

 

I think he's just a bit behind the times. A lot of people used to call themselves "conservative" based on a preference for a strong national defense, a rational tax & budget system..... nowadays American conservatives just are required to hate-hate-hate liberals. Hate them bitterly and with such a brainless spite that the destruction of the country is preferable to any semblance of success for any liberal.

In 2016 the "conservatives" in the US decided it was better to let Donald Trump shit on their heads, just so all the libby-rulls would have to smell it. And of course, the racists among them love him for his personality, too.

-DSK

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To the OP - it's Friday and I'm not going to read the replies.

Dylan, I think the system is fine. It's time like these that poke the bear. The people will speak and things will change.

The Founding Fathers set it up to be contentious. They wanted that. Don't forget that they were rebels. Smart ones though.

During WW2, Americans didn't care for you. We were isolationists. We wanted nothing to do with the war. Until Pearl Harbor. When that happened, the court of public opinion went ape shit for war and we built a massive military industrial complex. We went all in.

So, I think it's all constructed to have a placated society until bad shit goes down. Race riots, Womens Rights, Union Riots. Everything is cool until it's not. Then, it goes like this -

 

Just watch. It was all designed to give people a kick in the ass when they needed it. The upwell has started. BLM, #MeToo etc. The engines are revving.

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6 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

But your experience is the US experience.

Try again.

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6 hours ago, bhyde said:

You'll have excuse Moderate. His thinking is a bit askew since his doctor has prescribed such a strong dose of fentanyl. It seems that being that stupid is incredibly painful.

If only it was.

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6 hours ago, Monkey said:

I hate you for making me defend her. She was right. Specifically referring to her explanation of me. How does gay marriage cost me money?  I don’t even mind “reasonable” costs due to environmental concerns. 

Rational people confuse people on PA. 

"she"'s the cat's motherB)

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1 hour ago, austin1972 said:

To the OP - it's Friday and I'm not going to read the replies.

Dylan, I think the system is fine. It's time like these that poke the bear. The people will speak and things will change.

The Founding Fathers set it up to be contentious. They wanted that. Don't forget that they were rebels. Smart ones though.

During WW2, Americans didn't care for you. We were isolationists. We wanted nothing to do with the war. Until Pearl Harbor. When that happened, the court of public opinion went ape shit for war and we built a massive military industrial complex. We went all in.

So, I think it's all constructed to have a placated society until bad shit goes down. Race riots, Womens Rights, Union Riots. Everything is cool until it's not. Then, it goes like this -

 

Just watch. It was all designed to give people a kick in the ass when they needed it. The upwell has started. BLM, #MeToo etc. The engines are revving.

That's all very well but since Pearl Harbor you decided the checks and balances were strong enough to prevent this.

image.jpeg.c9b634d15f7a982143da06529e606799.jpeg

without testing I might add.

Since the Cuban Missile Crisis   the checks and balances are just to dam unwieldy to remove a madman before he goes full retard.

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"I’ve been trying to understand how this era is different from the gilded era.  "

A few differences; People in general tended to trust the federal government.  While there was wide spread corruption during the Gilded Age, with the growth of the Populist and later Progressive parties in response,  LBJ and Nixon had not yet destroyed the baseline trust Americans had.  Also, the problems that needed addressing were obvious to the majority of people; local corruption via the political bosses, unsafe products from consolidated companies, extreme economic swings, urban poverty, predatory RR rates etc.  Finally, at the heart of Progressive thought was the belief that the scientific method applied to social problems would result in progress toward a solution (that old Puritan belief in perfection of society) and a fundamental faith in the goodness of the American people so that expanding the franchise would result in a better government focused on providing a bulwark between the predatory capitalism of the trusts/pools/corporations and the working class.  

 

Unless, of course, you were black.

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"socially liberal and fiscally conservative" Is a crock of shit people sell themselves to feel good about being an asshole.  Aww, I feel bad you're poor...but .. NO SOUP FOR YOU!

The guy above who said he's a staunch environmentalist but a republican is another case of self deception.  How can you be for this administration in the light of all their anti-environment policies (Keystone XL, Offshore drilling, Mining dumping, National monument stripmining, etc).  YOU are the problem; in order to get your tax cut, you knowingly elected a guy that is going to RAPE the environment.  It's not just 'Joe Sixpack' that elected Trump, it's you selfish conservatives that held your noses and elected him anyway.  

 

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I consider myself a social liberal, fiscal conservative. I think you paint with too broad a brush. Illinois has hundreds of agencies, many being redundant or stupid. I think that's fiscally irresponsible. For example, there's an agency that oversees the length of registered business names. Really? I'm paying someone for that?

I'm more than willing to pay for infrastructure, social welfare, safety...that kind of stuff. I'm not willing to pay someone to count up to 25 characters.

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1 hour ago, Kirwan said:

"socially liberal and fiscally conservative" Is a crock of shit people sell themselves to feel good about being an asshole.  Aww, I feel bad you're poor...but .. NO SOUP FOR YOU!

The guy above who said he's a staunch environmentalist but a republican is another case of self deception.  How can you be for this administration in the light of all their anti-environment policies (Keystone XL, Offshore drilling, Mining dumping, National monument stripmining, etc).  YOU are the problem; in order to get your tax cut, you knowingly elected a guy that is going to RAPE the environment.  It's not just 'Joe Sixpack' that elected Trump, it's you selfish conservatives that held your noses and elected him anyway.  

 

 

Yes and no. There's varying degrees of self-deception....... from siply not paying attention to actively ignoring things that are pointed out. For example, A_Ches_Guy has gotten very angry with me a bunch of times, and accused me of mega-partisanship and lying and misquoting him, when I have pointed out the stupidly damaging things the Trump Administration is doing. There are a fairly large number of people who are convinced by polluting industries ad campaigns, just like there are still people who don't believe smoking cigarettes is really bad for you (even though the ads are long gone). There's an even larger number of people who will make excuses because it's convenient.

Remember, most people on the Titanic refused to believe the ship was really sinking.

 

1 hour ago, austin1972 said:

I consider myself a social liberal, fiscal conservative. I think you paint with too broad a brush. Illinois has hundreds of agencies, many being redundant or stupid. I think that's fiscally irresponsible. For example, there's an agency that oversees the length of registered business names. Really? I'm paying someone for that?

I'm more than willing to pay for infrastructure, social welfare, safety...that kind of stuff. I'm not willing to pay someone to count up to 25 characters.

Sure. And that's actually a good attitude, the check and balance on that was that when one party came in, they would get rid of all the other parties' patronage jobs & sinecures. Doesn't happen that way any more.

And there is no political will to get rid of patronage jobs. Sure, there is a lot of talk about more efficient gov't and getting rid of intrusive redundant over-regulation. But the big money is all in pollution and worker safety. So what are the gov't regulations that get tossed? Not the redundant inefficient ones, the ones that cost our corporate overlords the most money; and the ones that provide the most inarguable benefit.

-DSK

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18 hours ago, mad said:

You maybe the first Trump/right wing voter here that it’s possible to converse with. 

That’s just because I’m honest and don’t drink the Kool-Aid being fed from either side. I’d probably be about a 50/50 voter between parties if they’d field moderate candidates. Both parties have some good policies and some shit ones. I’ll openly confess to voting in the direction of what affects me most. (My Trump vote was just a “go fuck yourself” message to both broken parties)

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The Dotard lost the popular vote by millions.  He was/is clearly a piece of shit demagogue.  The electoral college was supposed to stop him.  It didn't.  Time to get rid of the electoral college. 

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50 minutes ago, Clove Hitch said:

The Dotard lost the popular vote by millions.  He was/is clearly a piece of shit demagogue.  The electoral college was supposed to stop him.  It didn't.  Time to get rid of the electoral college. 

74 posts and the first suggestion about a change

 

so chaps... does the electoral college system need changing. There does seem to have been a lot of gerrymandering too....

 

dangerous stuff chaps

 

D

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On 1/12/2018 at 3:56 PM, dylan winter said:

Dear Americans,

As an interested observer from across the seas I have watched the current disruption with much interest.  I am 62 and have never really paid much attention to the way the American system works... it has held up pretty well over the years - it has been robust, it has listened to the people most of the time and has stood out against fascism. Well done.

Also as a  Brit I feel a sort of Debt..inherited from my Parents.  They both knew that they  owed America for saving us from Fascism.   I also feel that debt.. Had it not been for the yanks intervening twice in European conflicts I would almost certainly be fluent in German because if the Kaiser had not had us Hitler would have  for sure.  A greater europe would have emerged - using German language and German laws.

Trump might turn out to be a blip in the  system that will correct itself - maybe not. The man certainly sounds like a fascist to me.   I think less of America for having put him in power. Does that matter.... well I assume that most Europeans feel the same. America has been diminished and tarnished by Trump - at least on the World stage. What he does to your gun laws, your health system, your infrastructure does not matter a jot to me. What he does with the power of the military is of massive importance.

  We, like the Aussies, Canucks and Kiwis run a parliamentary system with a leader elected by the members of the party. As soon as the leader becomes an electoral liability then that leader can be swapped out within around six weeks and the whole direction of the part in power can change.   We also have a mechanism for calling snap elections. One vote of no confidence in Parliament - a simple majority and an election is called.   America has a balance between president, senate and House of Representatives.   That is, as I understand it, is the theory. 

That balance would seem to be under some pressure at the moment. .         All I can say is that I, as an old, well educated,  Englishman feel that my faith in America to do the right thing is being diminished. 

Trump is a creature of the web, of youtube, of twitter, of blogs and podcasts.     Maybe Brexit is too.

How might the American system, and the parliamentary system, get tweaked to deal with something as dramatic as what I am doing right now - using the web to communicate with maybe 200 Americans almost face to face.  Certainly as close as pen friends.

But also in this space we have some really divisive sock puppets and genuinely angry people. The voice of the intemperate has got louder.  

  I filmed a few Trump blogs and the films were attacked by the Pepe people - who was really behind those hateful disgusting things written on my youtube channel I will never know. But this is new.

I think that the Parliamentary system might need some tweaking to deal with the web which is changing society and is now being (hateful word) "weaponised".

Does the American political system need changing in any way? In what way?

Dylan

PS - the Queen is utterly irrelevant to the smooth working of the system - she is merely a puppet of Parliament - that issue was sorted in our own civil war.

ktl_8_17_Still028.jpg

 

https://ibb.co/igbaZm

Our system gets tweaked all the time. Senators (sort of House of Lords-ish) used to be appointed and now they are elected for one example.

IMHO the issue is not the details of the process, both the UK and USA were easily led by Russian bullshit propaganda into hugely self-damaging votes. Brexit is just as stupid as Trump and may actually do more lasting damage. Our deplorables are your National Front types. Somehow their rampant stupidity has emerged as a force in politics.

BTW, you are welcome for WW II. We collectively saved the world. WW I, not so much. The Kaiser was not marching into London. I am very convinced the whole thing would have fizzled out with perhaps much better long term results than what we got out of Versailles.

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19 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

BTW, you are welcome for WW II. We collectively saved the world.

It's only the French who are ingrates about having their asses saved in WW II. Most of that can be laid at de Gaulles feet.

All the other countries are still grateful - the Dutch just love a Canadian flag on a backpack.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Our system gets tweaked all the time. Senators (sort of House of Lords-ish) used to be appointed and now they are elected for one example.

IMHO the issue is not the details of the process, both the UK and USA were easily led by Russian bullshit propaganda into hugely self-damaging votes. Brexit is just as stupid as Trump and may actually do more lasting damage. Our deplorables are your National Front types. Somehow their rampant stupidity has emerged as a force in politics.

Trump was the first person to start beetling on about Brexit and trumpism being linked.....I am yet to be convinced

 

of course his version of events was a wave of popularism sweeping both countries....as on many things he was wrong about that.

 

Did the Russians interfere in any significant way with the Brexit vote?

Dunno - I  have not seen any good evidence

however, the evidence that they interfered big time in the 2016 Mercan election is, I believe, overwhelming

 

D

 

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11 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

Trump was the first person to start beetling on about Brexit and trumpism being linked.....I am yet to be convinced

 

of course his version of events was a wave of popularism sweeping both countries....as on many things he was wrong about that.

 

Did the Russians interfere in any significant way with the Brexit vote?

Dunno - I  have not seen any good evidence

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/04/brexit-ministers-spy-russia-uk-brexit

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Our system gets tweaked all the time. Senators (sort of House of Lords-ish) used to be appointed and now they are elected for one example.

IMHO the issue is not the details of the process, both the UK and USA were easily led by Russian bullshit propaganda into hugely self-damaging votes. Brexit is just as stupid as Trump and may actually do more lasting damage. Our deplorables are your National Front types. Somehow their rampant stupidity has emerged as a force in politics.

BTW, you are welcome for WW II. We collectively saved the world. WW I, not so much. The Kaiser was not marching into London. I am very convinced the whole thing would have fizzled out with perhaps much better long term results than what we got out of Versailles.

Lets not go there again.  The Soviets won WW  II, the British and American forces didn't cover themselves in glory for the most part.  Got bogged down in Italy, didn't invade the main part of the continent until 1944.  Montgomery was a big dick, all talk and not much else, etc. To cautious and casualty averse.  Granted the US provided a lot of material support but the Russians supplied an awful lot of blood.  

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