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GXMarsh

SuperFoiler Grand Prix 2018

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1 hour ago, F15 AUS said:

If you can’t deal with tide, don’t go sailing 

Comments like that make you look a complete dickhead. Last weekend, we saw world class sailors having issues with the tide. It was one of a number of reasons why the venue wasn't suited to that type of racing. 

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Sailng dangerous? Not really.  I’ve been watching on board footage of Isle of Man TT. Now that’s dangerous! 

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21 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Comments like that make you look a complete dickhead. Last weekend, we saw world class sailors having issues with the tide. It was one of a number of reasons why the venue wasn't suited to that type of racing. 

Euroflex didn't seem to have any problems with the tide. Some well known sailors made some elementary mistakes that made them look a bit foolish. You obviously know nothing about sailing in tide either.

And calling someone a dickhead because you don't agree with his/her POV is hardly intelligent discourse.

As F15 said if you don't like sailing in tide then don't, and we will all be the better for it.

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20 hours ago, cosmicsedso said:

Euroflex didn't seem to have any problems with the tide. Some well known sailors made some elementary mistakes that made them look a bit foolish. You obviously know nothing about sailing in tide either.

And calling someone a dickhead because you don't agree with his/her POV is hardly intelligent discourse.

As F15 said if you don't like sailing in tide then don't, and we will all be the better for it.

I have grown up sailing in tide and tide can make even the best look foolish. I think that if you need to use 3 of the best sailors in the world to illustrate conditions were manageable, you have already lost the argument. When you have a boat that is so hard to sail that you cannot get your head out of it, as is happening with 5 out of 6 of the boats, tide like we saw in this event makes the venue unsuitable to this type of racing. What was the Outteridge line? Something about like holding F1 in the car park. This is meant to be one of the pinnacles of the sport. Choose venues accordingly.

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On 2/23/2018 at 11:44 AM, F15 AUS said:

The sabot association had a titles at hollywell the same weekend. I’m assuming they had use of the deep hole for the weekend.

I think they raced in the 6 kn zone directly off the dinghy club, so very restricted for them too (and a lot of traffic to contend with). I didn't see the course but there were comments from parents and kids that the wing mark wasn't much of a reach.

I can only guess that the SF course was where it was to keep the Deep Hole open for other boats and to keep a navigable channel from the eastern side of Crab Is through the Deep Hole to the western side of Wave Break Is. I've been in races there with 50 or so boats of various classes and 40' stink boats sailing right through the middle of the course and fleets, swilling their Chardonnay and yelling at anyone who might get in their way, I guess claiming right of way due to restricted manoeuvrability. Fuck wits, all of them.

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On 24/02/2018 at 9:08 PM, Team_GBR said:

 This is meant to be one of the pinnacles of the sport.

Says who?  World Sailing don't claim that, and the sailing public haven't shown much interest.

It's nothing of the sort, it's just a commercial Australian race series in a butt ugly design that is proving hard to sail and not especially quick.  How many people in the UK, US, France, Japan, Brazil or wherever have even heard of it? About 4 people.

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it will be interesting to know if it's the same stuff as take2. (rudder brakes down the back of the boat)

 

Talking about Sydney, does anybody know if the mothies (Nathan, Goobs, Josh McNight, Steve Thomas, etc) will be there.? 2 my understanding some of them are doing the moth worlds and I guess it's not that easy to do both (worlds start the day after Sydney, but few km away :D )

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7 hours ago, 17mika said:

Talking about Sydney, does anybody know if the mothies (Nathan, Goobs, Josh McNight, Steve Thomas, etc) will be there.? 2 my understanding some of them are doing the moth worlds and I guess it's not that easy to do both (worlds start the day after Sydney, but few km away :D )

So far, they're not entered. https://www.regattatoolbox.com/entryList?eventID=WYEX9X6zFL

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My understanding is that Goobs and Tom Slingsby are going to Bermuda, only Aust boats making the trip this year.

 

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Saturday's races,  even if wind was light and patchy, were pretty enjoyable. Having Outerridge on the mic helped a lot

 

 

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Lots of fun! Gusts here, lulls there, and unpredictable finish to the final race. A couple near misses, a port/stb protest that wasn't honored... so a bit of a mess, too, compared to more serious sailing -- say WS winter series which ran here in Miami a month ago -- but fully in line with the 18f skiffs gp era.

 

 

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Can anyone find the day 1 footage? They did a highlight reel and it looked like like platinum-grade carnage. Can't find the full coverage anywhere, though. I will say, Record Point's breakaway in the port side pressure from 1:34:00 to about 1:36:05 in the livestream is an EXTREMELY entertaining zero to hero moment. I am loving this show.



DRC

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They have not provided Friday streaming for any of the events. Only Saturday and Sunday.  I wonder if it is because they are not bringing in the drones and full film crew on Fridays?

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FFS guys, I have always been on the front foot about being positive about the whole thing, but this is amateur hour.

The "people's boat" - give me a break.

Commentator Nick Vindin, please just be quiet, please...

 

 

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generally the racing has been improving but WA was a bit of a fail.  Great location, but no wind was pretty much a fail for the event.  ok you can't control the wind but this is what happened with AC45s that they kept running regattas for the tv and forgot about the sailing.  

The decisions to race were questionable and potentially damaging to the concept.  

 

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On 05/03/2018 at 7:42 AM, Qman said:

generally the racing has been improving but WA was a bit of a fail.  Great location, but no wind was pretty much a fail for the event.  ok you can't control the wind but this is what happened with AC45s that they kept running regattas for the tv and forgot about the sailing.  

The decisions to race were questionable and potentially damaging to the concept.  

 

Its why they host GBRW down there at this time of year, it's nothing like the Freo Doctor from Nov-Feb, it just gives up, and can be a limp 4-8 knots with the odd thumper of... 15.

Needs to be pushed forward a bit. As the best sailing here is Nov-Feb, With Oct and March being alright, but a little less consistent.

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I think they took a punt with live streaming the events and it probably isnt the best way to go about it. I know it generated a bit of interest in the sailing community, but there is so much down time. If we were watching the post produced version straight up I think we would look at it differently. The post produced version actually looks good, we have just been tainted a bit by the slow live stream and big blow outs early in the series. 

Its like watching the daily videos or post produced heats from the WSL. They are exciting and all you see is the action. Try watching the live feed on fox or on the website, there is a lot of sitting in the water doing nothing. 

Its the same as the fox post produced version of the NFL where the add breaks are taken out and the just roll into the plays. Its much better to watch a game of NFL over an hour and a half then 3-4 hours. 

I think next year they may use the live stream differently. 

 

I hope they get through this period to next year and refine the boats to make them more race ready. I think they are good upwind, down-wind they are lacking a 3rd sail, to allow 3 point foiling all the time and some extra excitment to make downwind more entertaining. 

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On 2/3/2018 at 10:35 AM, A Class Sailor said:

Sorry, Groucho, its nothing to do with the depth of foils. In theory, the deeper the foils the more forgiving the set up, because as the boat rises, there is more time for the foils to self correct and for the sailors to adjust the amount of lift in the foils. Weighed against that is the idea that the less foil there is in the water, the less drag and therefore the faster you go, meaning that for speed you want to be high but for safety you want to be low. The way the foils work, you don't actually need that much foil in the water to stop leeway.

The real problem you have with this type of boat is that ride height is as much a function of rig load as it is the foils. The lighter the boat and bigger the rig, the more the loads from the rig come into play. My take is that at the moment, the rig is too big, cannot be played fast enough due to poor sheeting systems and the foils need to be set up with too much lift to compensate. In simplified terms, with the A, you need to move huge amounts of mainsheet, easing it right out to unload the foils and get up and then pulling on the sheet really fast in order to stop the boat rising too high. You then sheet to control ride height - ease to go higher and sheet in to keep the boat down. The less you ease to get foiling, the more lift you need in the foils because of the loads and the more likely the boat is to jump out.

The Superfoiler is in a bit of a viscous circle. It's rig is big and heavy, making the boat heavier than it should be and over powered. It needs the power to get going, but once it is going the rig is way too big and dominates. Without any proper calculations, my guess is that you could  go with a rig that is 2/3rds the size, build a boat that ends up as being half the weight and it would have been easier to sail. The other thing i would have done from scratch is to go with a 4 point foiler, so you don't need to lift the windward foil. It would have had 2 benefits. I think it would have produced more stable and controlled flight and made the boat a lot safer, with nothing to hit on the way to the bow when things go wrong. Unfortunately, the boat was designed by M&M, whose models seem to be flawed in the way they predict 3 point V boards being faster than so called 4 point Z foils.I think this is due to lack of experience with Z foils - their Nacra 17 Z foils are really average.

Similar rig issues for the new AC boats then. 

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Some of the on board live audio suggests some are not happy with the venue

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Just watched race 4, some of the best racing I’ve ever watched. These guys have really got their act together compared to earlier venues, Plenty of wind and boatspeed and chop but no big stops, awesome viewing. Hope it happens next year now that they’re getting their heads around sailing these things.

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I have not seen today's racing yet. 

Viewing from yesterday was pretty cool ,though! Sometimes it felt just scary to watch.. Sydney is always a pretty congested venue.

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1 hour ago, 17mika said:

I have not seen today's racing yet. 

Viewing from yesterday was pretty cool ,though! Sometimes it felt just scary to watch.. Sydney is always a pretty congested venue.

@51:32, "this place is a fucken shit place to sail these boats" - Nathan Outteridge.

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Real question: Short of an AC boat, what else out there would beat a (perfectly sailed) Super Foiler around a course? The footage doesn't track the speeds, so its hard to tell boat speed & VMG but they are clearly faster than a Moth, A-Cat, Phantom, etc.. How bout the GC32? Probably the closest comparison that I can think of off the top..?

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23 minutes ago, LotsO'Knots said:

Real question: Short of an AC boat, what else out there would beat a (perfectly sailed) Super Foiler around a course? The footage doesn't track the speeds, so its hard to tell boat speed & VMG but they are clearly faster than a Moth, A-Cat, Phantom, etc.. How bout the GC32? Probably the closest comparison that I can think of off the top..?

foiling kiteboard

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1 hour ago, LotsO'Knots said:

Real question: Short of an AC boat, what else out there would beat a (perfectly sailed) Super Foiler around a course? The footage doesn't track the speeds, so its hard to tell boat speed & VMG but they are clearly faster than a Moth, A-Cat, Phantom, etc.. How bout the GC32? Probably the closest comparison that I can think of off the top..?

From what I can see, the GC struggles to go consistently faster than 12 upwind (A). Meanwhile the Superfoiler goes mid-teens to very low 20's upwind (B). So unless I'm drastically misjudging the angles, the performance is somewhat similar downwind and the Superfoiler makes massive gains on every upwind. The upwind numbers for the GC have always shocked me because that means I can potentially gun down a poorly sailed one in my UFO. 

Worth noting. The moth is still probably faster than the Superfoiler thanks to seemingly comparable speeds on all headings and better maneuvers (C). True A-cat loyalists will probably lodge the same claim about their boat, too, but I haven't seen any full race data to back it up.

Citations:
(A) All the GC livestreams. They do not move upwind.
(B) In screen speed graphics (rare) in the Superfoiler livestreams
(C) Live moth tracking from 2014 (they are faster now) http://www.tractrac.com/viewer/index.php?target=http://em.club.tractrac.com/events/973041f0-d6f2-0130-9b9c-10bf48d758ce/races/0ea1e130-8e6f-0131-3582-10bf48d758ce.json

Bitchin' last event. I really hope this keeps going. I only get one day off a week, if I'm lucky, and the livestream plays perfectly on a Smart TV. Not quite as awesome as the America's Cup. However, for it's budget, it overdelivered. Definitely cooler than the extreme series.

DRC

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The boats are cooler for sure, and better wipe outs, but the extreme series was a good watch too. Closer racing.

I'd love to see one of the Super Foilers drag race a Moth.

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I think Groupama C is just as quick.  A bit slower through tacks and gybe because of only two sets of hands.

Certainly the boat that beats Groupama C has to be faster than Superfoilers.

I'm working on it.

Volunteers send PM.

SHC

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I quite enjoyed the final, super variable but that sort of made for snakes and ladders.  overall i like it if the conditions are good.  shortening of races midstream is sort of unfair i think but i understand it.   There was lots of faffing yesterday with breakages and injuries.  The cream rose which is good.  There is still massive deltas in some races 1.5km in some cases.

The boats are fast but not sure about their VMG, particularly downwind their VMG must suck.  

Bring on more of it.  Interesting to me is M32 racing is pretty good even without the foiling.  

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Hey there,

 

Do you guys know if there will be a new racing season this southern hemisphere summer? I really enjoyed the first one and hope would be very interested in watching how a second one could unfold, with much more experience from all crews!

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Great to read! Has there been any official announcement about a schedule, and teams involved? Looks like there is no update on the official website either. For instance, will Glenn Ashby and Nathan Outteridge be back?

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