Maroon

Sailors Powerboat

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2 hours ago, captpiratedog said:

 

5837652_20160927064414658_1_XLARGE.jpg&w=5312&h=2988&t=1474962289000

I've met lots of folks that said that they like or used to sail that own these

Dumb question, but what's the sail for?  Does it help with the motion, or stabilize at anchorage?  Starting to head to Mac26 territory if you ask me.

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13 minutes ago, widget said:

Dumb question, but what's the sail for?  Does it help with the motion, or stabilize at anchorage?  Starting to head to Mac26 territory if you ask me.

 

Steadying Sail, helps alleviate excessive rolling, underway, and at anchor.

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Like b b got out before me...That’s a steadying sail to keep down the roll under seaway. 

Don’t ever mention the Mac26 again.

Unless we’re going waterskiing 

BB935DE3-57DE-4320-992A-BB974E5C6398.jpeg

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A sailor's powerboat is a powerboat built by a sailor.  Greg Salthouse's take on this is brilliant.  I lust after this boat.  Outboard motor in a well (runs quietly and efficiently, easy to repair, doesn't take tons of room inside), big open cockpit, comfortable salon with views, and cozy bunks.  Not too big, not too small.  Not too fast, not too slow.  This is the Goldilocks of powerboats.  In my opinion.

pixel.gifhttp://www.salthouseboats.com/southstar-37-coastal-cruising-vessel.html

image.jpeg.5f4bbe392950c00c27705eb7754c6b7a.jpeg

image.jpeg.aff48805ccea8d0fe80c50fc5703ba2c.jpeg

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Well I am a little biased, but cruise at 15kts, tops at 21kt.  110hp yanmar turbo diesel.  Micro cruising for sure, but deliveries sure do go a lot faster.

Pompano 21-1.jpg

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1 hour ago, sailforbeer said:

A sailor's powerboat is a powerboat built by a sailor.  Greg Salthouse's take on this is brilliant.  I lust after this boat.  Outboard motor in a well (runs quietly and efficiently, easy to repair, doesn't take tons of room inside), big open cockpit, comfortable salon with views, and cozy bunks.  Not too big, not too small.  Not too fast, not too slow.  This is the Goldilocks of powerboats.  In my opinion.

pixel.gifhttp://www.salthouseboats.com/southstar-37-coastal-cruising-vessel.html

image.jpeg.5f4bbe392950c00c27705eb7754c6b7a.jpeg

image.jpeg.aff48805ccea8d0fe80c50fc5703ba2c.jpeg

Really nice.  Like everything about it except the NZ800,000 price tag (US$600k or so).  

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17 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

They haven't updated their web page to say how fast it will go with twin 370 hp diesels.

But I guess twin 315's just were not enough for some.

There was just a big gap in performance between the 315 hp diesels and the prior gas boats. It lost the "hot rod" factor with the diesels. CH Marine says that the Yanmar 370 hp will get the same top end as the old Merc 502s -- 45+ kts in flat water.  

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50 minutes ago, Scotch Caps said:

There was just a big gap in performance between the 315 hp diesels and the prior gas boats. It lost the "hot rod" factor with the diesels. CH Marine says that the Yanmar 370 hp will get the same top end as the old Merc 502s -- 45+ kts in flat water.  

 

I used to be the occasional Mate on deliveries of the one-off Shelter Island 50, Longevity.  Designed by Douz Zurn who penned the smaller boat that was originally started with Billy Joels financial help.  The hull was built of kevlar in Maine then sent to CH Marine for finishing. When my Mate Peter went north to find that work had ceased on it there, he moved it to Derektors, where it was completed.  Cool boat!  50/50/50.  50 feet on deck, 50 MPH, and 50 gallons per hour, per engine.  Two 1400 HP Mann Turbo Diesels spinning surface piercing props in a patented "Tunnel Vent" design where the large exhaust pipes emptied into chambers under the hull creating the surface piercing conditions.  Driving at speed on the ICW was like flying on instruments, constantly scanning the plotter, the gauges and the channel markers.  One time we left Rudee Inlet in VA Beach around 5:30 AM.  Stopped in Atlantic City, 6 hours later for fuel.  Then we slowly picked our way north via the Shinnecock Locks and canal on western Long Island, then arriving at Shelter Island YC at 2:30 in the afternoon to join the owners much larger Feadship there.  My mate Peter stayed with the boat from completion and the next two owners.  The third owner was not a good fit for him, so he retired from the program.

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westlawn.edu%2Fgfx%2Fgallery%2FDoug%20Zurn%2FshelterIsland50.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westlawn.edu%2Fgallery%2Fdetails.asp%3Fasset_ID%3D35&docid=qZrxhNTSMl-_kM&tbnid=FJxPRurlPzKPDM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj4j87duvHYAhVGC6wKHURABQAQMwgoKAEwAQ..i&w=500&h=500&itg=1&bih=637&biw=1366&q=shelter island 50&ved=0ahUKEwj4j87duvHYAhVGC6wKHURABQAQMwgoKAEwAQ&iact=mrc&uact=8

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjqzfTnvPHYAhUB0FMKHZemDwYQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yachtopolis.com%2Findex_details.asp%3Fid%3D38903%26show%3D1&psig=AOvVaw3Ci_DTGlOazrdFqiNZAUhe&ust=1516912816326291

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9 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

I used to be the occasional Mate on deliveries of the one-off Shelter Island 50, Longevity.  Designed by Douz Zurn who penned the smaller boat that was originally started with Billy Joels financial help.  The hull was built of kevlar in Maine then sent to CH Marine for finishing. When my Mate Peter went north to find that work had ceased on it there, he moved it to Derektors, where it was completed.  Cool boat!  50/50/50.  50 feet on deck, 50 MPH, and 50 gallons per hour, per engine.  Two 1400 HP Mann Turbo Diesels spinning surface piercing props in a patented "Tunnel Vent" design where the large exhaust pipes emptied into chambers under the hull creating the surface piercing conditions.  Driving at speed on the ICW was like flying on instruments, constantly scanning the plotter, the gauges and the channel markers.  One time we left Rudee Inlet in VA Beach around 5:30 AM.  Stopped in Atlantic City, 6 hours later for fuel.  Then we slowly picked our way north via the Shinnecock Locks and canal on western Long Island, then arriving at Shelter Island YC at 2:30 in the afternoon to join the owners much larger Feadship there.  My mate Peter stayed with the boat from completion and the next two owners.  The third owner was not a good fit for him, so he retired from the program.

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westlawn.edu%2Fgfx%2Fgallery%2FDoug%20Zurn%2FshelterIsland50.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westlawn.edu%2Fgallery%2Fdetails.asp%3Fasset_ID%3D35&docid=qZrxhNTSMl-_kM&tbnid=FJxPRurlPzKPDM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj4j87duvHYAhVGC6wKHURABQAQMwgoKAEwAQ..i&w=500&h=500&itg=1&bih=637&biw=1366&q=shelter island 50&ved=0ahUKEwj4j87duvHYAhVGC6wKHURABQAQMwgoKAEwAQ&iact=mrc&uact=8

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjqzfTnvPHYAhUB0FMKHZemDwYQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yachtopolis.com%2Findex_details.asp%3Fid%3D38903%26show%3D1&psig=AOvVaw3Ci_DTGlOazrdFqiNZAUhe&ust=1516912816326291

Nice looking boat!  Thanks for sharing the story and pics, pretty impressive for those who can afford it.

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I always wondered if those classic, narrow beamed powerboat designs were more rolly than later, beamier boats or are later designs just a concession to a market that demands maximum volume in a given slip length?

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9 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

Niiiiiicccceeee motorsailer, yacht!  What is it, and what did she motor at, and fuel consumption?

Marion du Fresne, Allan Buchanan design built for well known yacht equipment supplier in 1966 in Tasmania

Carvel and splined from new.

The engine as a true special, one the 40 Gardner 4LKs that where released from civilian use in 1966.

Prior to that supply was restricted to military use only. (Midget submarines that attacked the Turpitz were powered by 4LKs).

Used  about 100 litres (25 gallons) a day at 7.5 knots.

Had about 800 litres of fuel capacity so 2 of the 4 tanks were never used.

Rig was more for steadying sails but could reach at 6 knots if pressed in breeze

Had three great years cruising Tasmania in it.

 

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2 hours ago, @last said:

Nice looking boat!  Thanks for sharing the story and pics, pretty impressive for those who can afford it.

 

"Longevity" was the coolest power boat that I ever had the good fortune to be involved with, and it was an on and off relationship over a couple decades.  On the delivery from VA Beach to Sag Harbor, I was standing in the head taking a piss in the black custom carbon fiber head, when we hit a wave. I was immediately, and violently launched backwards into the shower door which collapsed inward where I toppled into a heap on the shower floor, still pissing as I fell!!  A couple of other times, Peter brought the boat to the Essex Boat Works, in CT, near our waterfront home of 30 years, because Bayside  Diesel, a shop not too far away in Mystic was certified to service the Mann Turbodiesels.  We would take a bunch of our mates out for joyrides on the lower CT River.  When doing a tight power turns at 35-40 knots in the flat river water, the wake would create a huge wave that would crash down on the two unsuspecting guests, sipping their cocktails, and facing aft, in the $1,500.00 Stidd Fighting Chairs near the transom.  The boat was totally tricked out with all the latest Sportfishing gear, stowed in custom built-in drawers, and an aft facing camera could film all the action from the small varnished antenna mast atop the cabin top.  They had some epic fishing days in the Bahamas with the first owner when the boat used to be berthed in the first slip on the right as you walk out the concrete pier to the Palm Beach YC dining room.  In addition, the first owner, who owned a private money management company for wealthy clients also had a large industrial building in West Palm that was renovated into a classic car restoration business along with his companies offices.  Most of the offices had lexan windows open to the showroom with all his 2 dozen or so, cool cars.  I got to drive a couple of Ferrras, including a one-off Enzo "ONE-EYED" race car from the 50's, which IIRC won a bunch of races but had a transmission that felt like a John Deere tractor, and had terrible brakes, because Enzo did not believe it brakes!!!  I drove it to a nearby parking lot, so some guys from a French car magazine could photograph for an article in their periodical.......

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4 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

"Longevity" was the coolest power boat that I ever had the good fortune to be involved with, and it was an on and off relationship over a couple decades.  On the delivery from VA Beach to Sag Harbor, I was standing in the head taking a piss in the black custom carbon fiber head, when we hit a wave. I was immediately, and violently launched backwards into the shower door which collapsed inward where I toppled into a heap on the shower floor, still pissing as I fell!!  A couple of other times, Peter brought the boat to the Essex Boat Works, in CT, near our waterfront home of 30 years, because Bayside  Diesel, a shop not too far away in Mystic was certified to service the Mann Turbodiesels.  We would take a bunch of our mates out for joyrides on the lower CT River.  When doing a tight power turns at 35-40 knots in the flat river water, the wake would create a huge wave that would crash down on the two unsuspecting guests, sipping their cocktails, and facing aft, in the $1,500.00 Stidd Fighting Chairs near the transom.  The boat was totally tricked out with all the latest Sportfishing gear, stowed in custom built-in drawers, and an aft facing camera could film all the action from the small varnished antenna mast atop the cabin top.  They had some epic fishing days in the Bahamas with the first owner when the boat used to be berthed in the first slip on the right as you walk out the concrete pier to the Palm Beach YC dining room.  In addition, the first owner, who owned a private money management company for wealthy clients also had a large industrial building in West Palm that was renovated into a classic car restoration business along with his companies offices.  Most of the offices had lexan windows open to the showroom with all his 2 dozen or so, cool cars.  I got to drive a couple of Ferrras, including a one-off Enzo "ONE-EYED" race car from the 50's, which IIRC won a bunch of races but had a transmission that felt like a John Deere tractor, and had terrible brakes, because Enzo did not believe it brakes!!!  I drove it to a nearby parking lot, so some guys from a French car magazine could photograph for an article in their periodical.......

Sounds like some really epic memories of the boat and not a bad backdrop to play in either.  Was in Palm Beach briefly over x-mas, many stops close by WPB to see my favorite but forgotten pink MORC 30 in Riviera Beach, a quick stop at lighthouse point marina,  Fort Liquordale, etc before heading to Florida City/the keys.  Rarefied air incomewise for sure though in that area, reminds me of the famous JP Morgan quote, "if you have to ask how much it costs...........".

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On 24.1.2018 at 1:36 AM, kotick said:

Yeah, it's true, but we can dream, can't we?  

Hehe! Wanna ride? Just google "Venice watertaxi Riva" ! Lots of pictures... I did it last year. The drivers let you stand right behind them if you ask. Fascinating boats. The commute from airport to inner city via grand canal is breathtaking. 

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7 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

 

Hehe! Wanna ride? Just google "Venice watertaxi Riva" ! Lots of pictures... I did it last year. The drivers let you stand right behind them if you ask. Fascinating boats. The commute from airport to inner city via grand canal is breathtaking. 

Spent two days in Venice riding the water taxis in October, before a ten day Dalmatian Coast cruise on the Star Flyer, 4-masted Barque small cruise ship.  We will definitely be returning to Venice soon!!!!!

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2 hours ago, Omer said:

IMG_4515.JPG

 

I love the way those old tug hulls pull zero water or wake behind them at that cruising speed there!!

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15 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

"Creole Miss" Tug -- Essex CT.

 

 

Missus BB and I spent many a New Years Day breaking ice in Hamburg Cove on that tug, with Capt. Ned, and Carol and bunch of other mates!  Good times!!  Pity the boats not around here any more, but Dan who now owns CT River Dock & Dredge has a smaller, cuter tug now instead....

 

EDIT:  Do I know you fastyacht?

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3 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

Missus BB and I spent many a New Years Day breaking ice in Hamburg Cove on that tug, with Capt. Ned, and Carol and bunch of other mates!  Good times!!  Pity the boats not around here any more, but Dan who now owns CT River Dock & Dredge has a smaller, cuter tug now instead....

 

EDIT:  Do I know you fastyacht?

Almost certainly. We corresponded 5 or 6 years ago about frostbiting and stuff. I'm not sure we've met formally but your name is familiar. I'll probably eventually go, "oh duh, of course!"

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25 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Almost certainly. We corresponded 5 or 6 years ago about frostbiting and stuff. I'm not sure we've met formally but your name is familiar. I'll probably eventually go, "oh duh, of course!"

 

Okay thanks!  I don't recollect our conversing, but a lot can happen over 5 or 6 years.  So, you are familiar with the Creole Miss tugboat, then?

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1 minute ago, billy backstay said:

 

Okay thanks!  I don't recollect our conversing, but a lot can happen over 5 or 6 years.  So, you are familiar with the Creole Miss tugboat, then?

Only to the extent that I have admired her ever since I first landed in Essex in '01. Always liked watching the trees in the rigging or lights in the trees in the rigging or whatever that is called, carrying Santa to the dock.

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2 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Only to the extent that I have admired her ever since I first landed in Essex in '01. Always liked watching the trees in the rigging or lights in the trees in the rigging or whatever that is called, carrying Santa to the dock.

 

Yes, Essex has it all going on!  The Friggin' in the Riggin', Rat Parade, Buzzard Festival, and Loser's Day Parade to commemorate the burning of the fleet, by the Brits in the War of 1812, supposedly the largest financial loss of that short war.  We lived there on South Cove for 30 years, and didn't realize how stuck up people there are, until we moved 7 miles north to Chester Village in 2016! :wacko:

 

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On 1/23/2018 at 9:13 PM, Pipe Dream said:

To me, something like this has a lot of merit.

mainpic.jpg

http://www.powercatsnz.com/public/index.cfm?fuseaction=app.showdesign&ID=162

 

Very nice boats. Nearly bought one, but it was too wide to fit on a trailer alonside my house. A longer Fountain fit with inches to spare each side. I would have needed a chain saw ...

 

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Billy, you make lots of comments that align with my experiences: that speed might seem cool, but downsides come with 20+ knots ....

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55 minutes ago, carcrash said:

Billy, you make lots of comments that align with my experiences: that speed might seem cool, but downsides come with 20+ knots ....

 

Yes, there are lots of downsides to very fast boats, most of them having to do with personal cashflow, if you are the owner! LOL!!!   But driving very cool toys, owned by very rich people, has it's place in the world.  And I know my Regressive friends will tell my very Liberal self, that I was the beneficiary of "trickle down" economics, when I was paid to operate those machines, and I would have to agree with them. 

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38 minutes ago, See Level said:

Here's one I get to play with.

Note fuel consumption.

Still not wide open.

 

 

IMG_20170428_131517744.jpg

And that's at 20 knots @ 2038 RPM. How big is this beast?

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3 hours ago, See Level said:

Here's one I get to play with.

Note fuel consumption.

Still not wide open.

 

 

IMG_20170428_131517744.jpg

I'd change the display units to $3/min.

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5 hours ago, IStream said:

I'd change the display units to $3/min.

It would be US$8.70/min for petrol where I live. Cheaper if diesel, but only a bit...

:(

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Black Tom 1950

Morton Johnson 34’

Twin 110 hp Chrysler Marine engines

Floyd Ayres Design

3E191059-D001-48E1-97AE-F9CC5233A67D.jpeg

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

An Audi drivers boat....

 

 

 

Cool commuter launch, but not so good for swimming or sunbathing or fishing?  And leather seats?  no cleats or chocks for tieing up or anchoring?  I bet for what that custom boat costs, you could buy a used Evelyn 32, AND a 25 foot Center Console both!

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17 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

Cool commuter launch, but not so good for swimming or sunbathing or fishing?  And leather seats?  no cleats or chocks for tieing up or anchoring?  I bet for what that custom boat costs, you could buy a used Evelyn 32, AND a 25 foot Center Console both!

looks to me like it has 3 popup cleats on either side.

A real sailors motor boat is the tender for their sailboat, not the BS posted in this thread ;)

 

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3 hours ago, HFC Hunter said:

It would be US$8.70/min for petrol where I live. Cheaper if diesel, but only a bit...

:(

Definitely diesel - the panel below the engine monitor panel says "Detroit Diesel".

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4 minutes ago, J28 said:

Definitely diesel - the panel below the engine monitor panel says "Detroit Diesel".

 

MTU's with  DDEC switches?

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1 minute ago, See Level said:

Detroit diesel and MTU partnered up in the 90's

I'm not sure exactly who owns who at this point.

 

I think I had heard that.  But I have not kept up with power boat stuff over the years.  Everything is becoming globalized.  Airbus just took an ownership stake in Bombardier for no apparent cost, by taking over their marketing.

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We have enjoyed our MJM 34Z built by Boston Boat Works. MJM is part of the Johnstone family. Good stable mate for the J-88 

25 knot cruise, 11 GPH

34Z.JPG

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1 hour ago, See Level said:

Detroit diesel and MTU partnered up in the 90's

I'm not sure exactly who owns who at this point.

It's MTU, at least it is on the generator side of things. 

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I was in on the design of a 45 knot, 62 fast cruising powerboat. Detroit Diesel 16V-92TA's. 1450 HP x 2. They IDLED at ~62 GPH. 

Each.

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Zonk,

     We built an aluminum 65' Deep V Cigarette in New Orleans when Halter Marine owned Cigarette. It had a pair of those Detroits and the interior was left out so we could try and break the diesel speed record (at that time). We inherited Mike Peters when we got Cigarette from Aronow and he knew a thing or two about fast powerboats. And then we all learned a thing or two more on that project. Boat ran really fast stripped but when we added drums of water down below to simulate the finished interior the speed fell way off. Lots of prop combinations were tried and those 92TA's from Stewart & Stevenson had a bad habit of eating turbos. Got to be a pretty expensive proposition and I don't think the interior ever got finished off. Company stockholders forced Halter to sell off the Cigarette Division and I think that was when Mike Peters hung out his own shingle. I never thought to ask about the fuel consumption...

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6 hours ago, House Salad said:

The Blue Star 29.9 - Mark Ellis design, Bruckmann Yachts build. Twin Yanmar 250 HP diesels. Fabulous family cruiser.

Salad Days Menemsha1.jpg

 

I had forgotten that one, but I love Marks designs.  The orginal Northeast 37 I think it was, had an unconventional look, that I had a hard time getting used to, but by the time it was refined in the 40! I was sold, a true motorsailer, that did both jobs equally well.  Local stockbroker had one with a beautiful interior, including  an office, with small fireplace/stove, so he could work from his boat.  Sadly he fell into the water and drowned on New Years Eve, at the marina he was staying at in Charleston, about 5 years ago, and the boat languished and I lost track of it.  I heard recently that Mark had picked up a Northeast for his personal use.  Great guy, he lives nearby, and we see him at the pub from time to time at happy hour.  My Moms former partner at Eastland Yachts, did a lot of the interior design on his Nonsuch line, and probably other boats.  

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9 hours ago, hoppy said:

looks to me like it has 3 popup cleats on either side.

A real sailors motor boat is the tender for their sailboat, not the BS posted in this thread ;)

Thanks for pointing that out!

At age 16, I used the believe that real sailors only sailed on wooden gaff rigged Schooners.  Timed an each advancing decade, has modified my opinions greatly.  There is a place and a time for power boats, for sure!  But the Audi A4 commuter boat is indeed a BS boat, for all but the narrowest of uses, as I pointed out.

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well, I kind of like the pretty little Albury 19 runabout that we used to drift around in when I was a kid spending time in Man-o-War.  Was a perfect sailor's tender.  That and the 280 SL with the appropriate hermes-scarfed classic, of course...

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12 hours ago, crashdog said:

well, I kind of like the pretty little Albury 19 runabout that we used to drift around in when I was a kid spending time in Man-o-War.  Was a perfect sailor's tender.  That and the 280 SL with the appropriate hermes-scarfed classic, of course...

 

At age 16 or 17, I had a part time job after High School at a local Foreign Car repair shop.  At one point we had two 280SL's for sale there, both with manual trans, one in Robins Egg Blue, the other was Silver.  I got to drive them both on occasion, and that was the best thing I could imagine doing with my clothes on, at the time!!  I was known around the shop as "Billy Boat Division", as I was BN sort of, on the owners PT30, hull #1, called "Jet", so I was sent off to do boat chores quite often.  We ripped off the deck, did a cold-molded flush deck, and taller rig, and we won a shit load of pickle dishes in PHRF.  Doing bow on Jet was nearly as much fun as driving the 280 SL's!

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So I haven't been on this forum much in the last couple of years but someone mentioned this thread to me and it seems like the right place to share more ideas.

These are a couple of boats we have built and put many thousands of miles on island hopping, commuting, camping in all kinds of weather (the last comment the cat more than the tri - the tri handles it, but get wet in shitty conditions), since 2010.

The tri does about 14mpg at 20kts with a single 20hp outboard. The cat did 7mpg at 20kts with twin 20's.   This summer we changed the 20's on the cat to 40's which we can run at much lower RPM's and get full NMEA data and fuel flow from.    We changed the hull shape but ran out of time to put the foils back in (Which is bad, as the bigger fatter hull design was around getting a lit of lift), so I've put 2500 miles on it since June in the half baked configuration, which currently does about 5mpg at 23kts, 6 at 21 and not so much at 27.   When we get the new foils in in a couple of months we expect something like 25kts at 7-8mpg and a top speed somewhere between 32-35 kts.

These are definitely "sailors" power boats (although that can obviously mean a lot of things) and I love how they go through the water, the long thin bows mean they are incredibly smooth in chop and I rarely slow down for sea state in the cat, it just goes through the waves and carries on.    

So just sharing for fun and food for thought!

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMG_3982.jpg

IMG_3968.jpg

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2 minutes ago, nige said:

This is the cat

Totoro_22kts.jpg

Very cool.  Would love more details & specs - beam, length, payload, materials, etc.  Looks like a great runabout.  Can she handle unprotected waters at all?  

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Was thinking much the same ,would like to hear how it handles a bit of swell with chop? 

Very cool looking boat.

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I think for the size of the boat it handles really well with swell and chop.   As with any boat, there is a period and height that just doesn't work very well and you have to slow down a little, but shorter chop it goes straight through and swell obviously you go up and over.   

I have put 2500 miles on the boat since June and unless i'm taking my kids with me, very rarely worry about the forecast.  Its dry, the racing seats hold you in place if it gets bouncy but the boat itself doesn't slam due to the long, narrow bows.  (there is 12ft of bow in front of the driver).   Its designed to go through the waves as much as over them.   I am out in the straights between the San Juan Islands, Port Townsend, Anacortes, Bellingham and Victoria a fair bit and although its not the ocean, with the currents and winds, the water can be pretty brutal.

Its 24ft long, 8.5ft wide, weighs about 1800lbs (estimate) with the twin 40's.  (the tri is about 500lbs including the outboard)  Its all glass/foam construction other than a few carbon areas and carbon foils.   Ive had 12 people on it but that was a very short trip when some orcas were right out of the harbor and that was with the twin 20's.   It still did 17 kts with that payload (That not a designed load and I would never go far like that!).    The bench seats slide down to become a full size bed in the back.    Seats 6 comfortably although with the cover on, the rear two on the bench seats dont have too much head room - so generally kids go at the back.

Here is a video of going full throttle with the 20's in 25kts of breeze in Rosario straight.  The video doesn't do the sea state justice, but it was lumpy.   Downwind which is obviously more comfortable though.

The tri has a more violent latteral movement in rough weather due to the design of the floats being mostly out of the water and I'd slow down for comfort.   It is wet but but very comfortable.

(Note on this video you can see a few drips inside, the windshield needed resealing after 5 years and the attempted vents above didnt seal 100% - both are now fixed ;) )

 

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1 hour ago, nige said:

This is the cat

IMG_1674.jpg

 

If you were to consider selling this cat, what price range would you be at? Such a cool boat.

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I am not sure what I would sell this boat for, I am not sure the numbers would work out for anyone ;)

This was built by Turn Point Design (Brandon Davis) in Port Townsend and we have been working on and off the design for the next version which we'd make as a kit.   I have 5 or 6 people interested but we haven't really got our shit together yet.  The plan was to have the mods finished for this boat  (including new foils, new glass windshield, cabin top etc) but money and time have been prioritized elsewhere.   We'll get back on it soon though.

We had a framework for a plan for the kits, different levels from the CNC cut foam panels (designed with all the markers and cut outs to make assembly as easy as possible), manual and license for $10K to pre made/skinned flat panels, CNC cut with pre made molded below waterline hull, transom and corners/beveled sections for closer to $30K.  The latter would be closer to assembly than building etc.    You'd then obviously have hours, outboards (30-50hp), controls, windows etc etc.        This was all rough but the boat would be lighter, slightly fuller and have better load carrying capacity than the current boat.

 

cheers


Nige

 

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Can go where any race yacht can go - Gurit engineered structure, 1500 kg lead ballast and 1400 kg water ballast capacity.

42' LOA

10' beam

IMG_0787.JPG

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23 minutes ago, nige said:

I am not sure what I would sell this boat for, I am not sure the numbers would work out for anyone ;)

This was built by Turn Point Design (Brandon Davis) in Port Townsend and we have been working on and off the design for the next version which we'd make as a kit.   I have 5 or 6 people interested but we haven't really got our shit together yet.  The plan was to have the mods finished for this boat  (including new foils, new glass windshield, cabin top etc) but money and time have been prioritized elsewhere.   We'll get back on it soon though.

We had a framework for a plan for the kits, different levels from the CNC cut foam panels (designed with all the markers and cut outs to make assembly as easy as possible), manual and license for $10K to pre made/skinned flat panels, CNC cut with pre made molded below waterline hull, transom and corners/beveled sections for closer to $30K.  The latter would be closer to assembly than building etc.    You'd then obviously have hours, outboards (30-50hp), controls, windows etc etc.        This was all rough but the boat would be lighter, slightly fuller and have better load carrying capacity than the current boat.

 

cheers


Nige

Both boats look amazing.  Way more appropriate for a sailor's mentality than the obscene gas guzzler's that have been mentioned in this thread.

Why not build and sell finished boats?  There are far more potential buyers than the relatively few capable of doing the work themselves and there certainly is enough talent in Port Townsend for a build team to assemble and finish them.  I have no idea what a fair market price would be for a boat like this (guesses anyone?) but am curious?  Pick a number and work backwards from there to determine feasibility.  Or do boat builders share the belief I heard thirty years ago from a friend on Martha's Vineyard, that only those who build their own boats are worthy of being considered true sailors and deserve them, while those who merely own boats are viewed with contempt?

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3 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Both boats look amazing.  Way more appropriate for a sailor's mentality than the obscene gas guzzler's that have been mentioned in this thread.

Why not build and sell finished boats?  There are far more potential buyers than the relatively few capable of doing the work themselves and there certainly is enough talent in Port Townsend for a build team to assemble and finish them.  I have no idea what a fair market price would be for a boat like this (guesses anyone?) but am curious?  Pick a number and work backwards from there to determine feasibility.  Or do boat builders share the belief I heard thirty years ago from a friend on Martha's Vineyard, that only those who build their own boats are worthy of being considered true sailors and deserve them, while those who merely own boats are viewed with contempt?

Oh, no, there is no snobbery here ;)              To have someone build one to a high standard, its unlikely there would be too much change from $100k, but its possible that number could come down the parts ever got to a semi production level.

We have talked about finished boats a bunch but its just not the core business of Turn Point Design.   They are focused on design, tooling and production of parts.  Efficiently producing finished boats is a different setup and different work.  We/they have built a number of boats (these two power boats, Felix the R2AK cat, loads of paddle boards, Scamps,  the new "Skate"  - ) but efficient production of finished boats isn't something they are setup to do.

 We figured once we have the kit plans nailed down, it would be better/more efficient to find a local ish builder who could setup to produce finished boats from the kit, this way utilizing the skills and parts production of Turn Point Design and the boat production skills of a partner.    

Either way though, that discussion is premature and up in the air.      If anyone is truly interested in one of these boats, please get in touch with me, we have just been talking in the last week about keeping the plans moving forward and I have a small list of very interested people I need to send an update too....

 

cheers

Nige

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On 1/26/2018 at 3:06 PM, Zonker said:

I was in on the design of a 45 knot, 62 fast cruising powerboat. Detroit Diesel 16V-92TA's. 1450 HP x 2. They IDLED at ~62 GPH. 

Each.

And that's why we don't see DD 2-strokes any longer.

BTW at that fuel consumption you have over 1000 bhp...something funny going on there.

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I love seeing how many of these boats look like perfect race committee boats. 

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10 hours ago, nige said:

I am not sure what I would sell this boat for, I am not sure the numbers would work out for anyone ;)

This was built by Turn Point Design (Brandon Davis) in Port Townsend and we have been working on and off the design for the next version which we'd make as a kit.   I have 5 or 6 people interested but we haven't really got our shit together yet.  The plan was to have the mods finished for this boat  (including new foils, new glass windshield, cabin top etc) but money and time have been prioritized elsewhere.   We'll get back on it soon though.

We had a framework for a plan for the kits, different levels from the CNC cut foam panels (designed with all the markers and cut outs to make assembly as easy as possible), manual and license for $10K to pre made/skinned flat panels, CNC cut with pre made molded below waterline hull, transom and corners/beveled sections for closer to $30K.  The latter would be closer to assembly than building etc.    You'd then obviously have hours, outboards (30-50hp), controls, windows etc etc.        This was all rough but the boat would be lighter, slightly fuller and have better load carrying capacity than the current boat.

 

cheers


Nige

 

 

very cool boats!  You mention "foils", but they are not in evidence in the pics.  Do these boats rise up on hydrofoils?

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12 hours ago, nige said:

Oh, no, there is no snobbery here ;)              To have someone build one to a high standard, its unlikely there would be too much change from $100k...

Heh, heh.  That's substantially more than a new, finished F-22 trimaran with sails?  Just another rich man's toy then, nothing for us peasants to drool about.  Move along folks.

Best Runabout Boats of 2017
https://www.boatingmag.com/best-runabout-boats-2017

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Heh heh. Another interaction where you get stabbed in the face by Proa Joea.

you are a fucking peasant

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10 hours ago, nacrajon said:

Nige, that cat is beautiful. It would complement my sailboat very well.

Both the cat & the tri!  These are the first non-traditional boats i've seen in the thread which I actually like.   The cat reminds me of a taller more seaworthy version of the cats they use to coach the rowers on the rivers.

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22 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Heh, heh.  That's substantially more than a new, finished F-22 trimaran with sails?  Just another rich man's toy then, nothing for us peasants to drool about.  Move along folks.

Best Runabout Boats of 2017
https://www.boatingmag.com/best-runabout-boats-2017

Ouch - thats a little dismissive.   My posts weren't trying to sell them (until someone asked about prices), I thought they were interesting enough to add to the conversation.  I haven't seen an F-22 price list in at least 5 or 6 years but I'd have no reason to think it would be cheaper.   Im sure if there was the market to consider making tools for 100 boats you could be looking at some very different numbers, but I don't believe this is a big market, which is why the kits make a lot of sense.  The higher priced kits would not require much skill to put together, so maybe my estimates for someone else finishing are overstated.  Im not sure, I was just sharing my thoughts as they stand right now.

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3 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

very cool boats!  You mention "foils", but they are not in evidence in the pics.  Do these boats rise up on hydrofoils?

No they dont fully rise up.   The one pic of the boat running, it had the old foils in which were too small and too far forward (you can see the bows are being lifted and we were not getting enough lift off the outboard foils).     The new ones will be larger in all dimensions, so they are deeper, stronger and more forgiving.    They will also actually be in the right place ;)   and should lift about 75% of the displacement at 25kts, the idea to leave the "planing" stern sections skimming the water.    So they are foil assisted, not fully foiling.     I have some longer term plans to build another tri that would be a better platform for playing with fully foiling....

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, nige said:

No they dont fully rise up.   The one pic of the boat running, it had the old foils in which were too small and too far forward (you can see the bows are being lifted and we were not getting enough lift off the outboard foils).     The new ones will be larger in all dimensions, so they are deeper, stronger and more forgiving.    They will also actually be in the right place ;)   and should lift about 75% of the displacement at 25kts, the idea to leave the "planing" stern sections skimming the water.    So they are foil assisted, not fully foiling.     I have some longer term plans to build another tri that would be a better platform for playing with fully foiling....

 

 

 

Thanks for 'splaining it, Nige!!  Would be wonderful if someone brought that concept to market!!  OTOH, we all know that a small fortune in boatbuilding begins with a much larger fortune! LOL!

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14 minutes ago, nige said:

Ouch - thats a little dismissive.   My posts weren't trying to sell them (until someone asked about prices), I thought they were interesting enough to add to the conversation.  I haven't seen an F-22 price list in at least 5 or 6 years but I'd have no reason to think it would be cheaper.   Im sure if there was the market to consider making tools for 100 boats you could be looking at some very different numbers, but I don't believe this is a big market, which is why the kits make a lot of sense.  The higher priced kits would not require much skill to put together, so maybe my estimates for someone else finishing are overstated.  Im not sure, I was just sharing my thoughts as they stand right now.

Dismissive, yes, personal attack, no.  The boats are very interesting and relevant to the conversation except for two little things: availability and price.  The only customers in your business plan are builders and having one built is likely to be extremely expensive, for a 24' runabout.  Even these scenarios are only possibilities at this point, so "for the rest of us", this boat is effectively unobtainium.  Still a very nice boat, just way out of reach for 99% of us.

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1 hour ago, nige said:

Ouch - thats a little dismissive.   My posts weren't trying to sell them (until someone asked about prices), I thought they were interesting enough to add to the conversation.  I haven't seen an F-22 price list in at least 5 or 6 years but I'd have no reason to think it would be cheaper.   Im sure if there was the market to consider making tools for 100 boats you could be looking at some very different numbers, but I don't believe this is a big market, which is why the kits make a lot of sense.  The higher priced kits would not require much skill to put together, so maybe my estimates for someone else finishing are overstated.  Im not sure, I was just sharing my thoughts as they stand right now.

Thanks for sharing, both boats look phenominally cool. The cat reminds me a bit of the commuter cat Bieker designed, and similar design brief from the sound of things. Those kit prices sound totally reasonable to me. Look at what the typical aluminum runabout goes... Good boats don't come cheap. 

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

Dismissive, yes, personal attack, no.  The boats are very interesting and relevant to the conversation except for two little things: availability and price.  The only customers in your business plan are builders and having one built is likely to be extremely expensive, for a 24' runabout.  Even these scenarios are only possibilities at this point, so "for the rest of us", this boat is effectively unobtainium.  Still a very nice boat, just way out of reach for 99% of us.

Ok, they seem relevant to the discussion despite those things rather than except them.  There are fare more expensive and unavailable boats in this thread.    Obviously they wont be for everyone but any low volume semi custom boat isn't going to be cheap.

It seems better to discuss now while the plans are still forming. 

One thing that we are geekily excited about is a model kit version for anyone interested, we are toying with the idea of selling 24" or 36" kits for something like $200, (3d printed parts that would be molded at full size, cut ply for the flat sections) full miniature versions of the kit that would be available so anyone interested would have a good idea of what the build steps would consist of as well as then having a visual model of the final product before they dive into it.

 

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9 minutes ago, nige said:

There are far more expensive and unavailable boats in this thread.

Unlike the absurd guzzlers, I took your design seriously.  If only...

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10 minutes ago, nige said:

Ok, they seem relevant to the discussion despite those things rather than except them.  There are fare more expensive and unavailable boats in this thread.    Obviously they wont be for everyone but any low volume semi custom boat isn't going to be cheap.

It seems better to discuss now while the plans are still forming. 

One thing that we are geekily excited about is a model kit version for anyone interested, we are toying with the idea of selling 24" or 36" kits for something like $200, (3d printed parts that would be molded at full size, cut ply for the flat sections) full miniature versions of the kit that would be available so anyone interested would have a good idea of what the build steps would consist of as well as then having a visual model of the final product before they dive into it.

 

 

Sounds like a cool retirement project, when I am 66 in 4 years!!

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Nige, ignore Proa. He can't compliment anyone or anything without using the back of his hand.

I love the design concept and you can sign me up for one of those 24" kits.

Just for shits and giggles, have you thought about what you could do with a scaled-up version? I'm thinking 14' beam so it could fit in a standard slip which proportionally puts it at around 40' LOA. My SWAG at the scaled weight is about 5500 lb. 

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Cats move nicely ...but they arent friendly boats.  

You cant climb out of that cockpit and walk around the deck , you cant fend off  from that needle bow,  dockage is 1.5 times normal...if you can find a spot 

If you just need a boat that drives like a car...sit behind the wheel and step on the gas .....they are OK

if you need something utalitarian...no 

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Kit boats are attractive for multiple reasons. For one, the buyer turns into a boatbuilder. Building a well designed kit boat can be a very rewarding experience, especially with CNC cut parts. The builder also ends up with a new skill set, especially so if the kit comes with a manual that does a good job of teaching those skills.

Shipping kits costs a fraction of what it would cost to ship finished boats. We have shipped many kits to far away countries successfully.

The most attractive thing to me about kit boats is that wood/epoxy boats can be built so lightly. This would be a huge advantage for the proposed multihull motorboats. To beat the weight of a well designed plywood/epoxy boat, one would have to use exotic materials (cored carbon), the engineering would have to be done carefully, and still the wood/ epoxy boats may come out lighter.

Plywood/epoxy is attractive in many other ways as well. As an engineering material, it is very forgiving. What doesn't seem like it could possibly be strong enough probably is. Lots of thin skinned plywood boats have been around the world. Old, lightly built plywood sports fishing boats have been studied extensively because they weren't failing when newer cored boats were. Plywood boats don't dent when you bang into a dock, where a lightly skinned cored boat will, etc, etc.

Longevity is the next question of course and my feeling is that wood/epoxy boats can last as long or longer than any other method. This is obviously dependent on how one embraces the current technology. One can't "throw something together" and expect it to last a long time. Lots of the work involved is related to longevity. See my book EPOXY BASICS, one of my building manuals, or the Gougeon's bible to see what I'm talking about.

For examples of longevity, consider "Adagio", Meade Gougeon's 35 foot trimaran. It has been raced hard every year for 50 years, is still very competitive and weighs just 2400 pounds! My latest proa is now half that age and has never showed any signs of stress, despite having been sailed hard for 40 some thousand miles and put away wet always. 

My assertions on weigh and longevity of wood/epoxy boats are only based on my own observations, but I feel strongly about both aspects. I have also come to really love working with these materials and the results appeal to me much more than any production boat ever will. 

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49 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Unlike the absurd guzzlers, I took your design seriously.  If only...

You didn’t sound like a dick every time you post

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