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Maroon

Sailors Powerboat

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Sorry, I wasn't planning to hijack this thread but I'll try to reply to everyone:

ProaSailor - no, we are on the same page, I wasnt saying a single person either.  I meant a builder with a team.  Feel free to private message me any of those who you think would be able to build this in your price range.  Maybe I'm missing some options.    The only way I can see that working with great efficiency is either taking pre orders and setting up a production line or investment to setup a production line.    I do not see the market being that big and have no intention to find/invest the kind of money needed to do that.          My only other point - I have never said anything along the lines of that "worthy" quote you keep mentioning.   I could not disagree with it more.

olsurfer - Something along those lines would be an option as a kit, but its hard to get away from the number of hours needed to produce that, even efficiently.     

IStream and Veeger - I dream of the dayboat version, a sailors version of a cigarette boat ;)   But it would be ridiculous.     We have drawn up a 32" version that is exactly what you are talking about - inboards, efficient at 12-15kts, cruiser with a head, small galley and a few berths.  I dont think you need to go to 40ft although the lines look better the bigger you get, and everything gets more space -  obviously.    I dont think we had it to a stage where I can send renderings, but I'll chat with Brandon and see what I can post.

I just talked to Brandon again this afternoon and we circled back round to full molds again, its hard to pick a level!   But we still have a bunch of work to do before then anyway.     I'll get in touch with anyone else about the scaled kits once we have the design nailed down.

thanks for all the thoughts!

 

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49 minutes ago, nige said:

Sorry, I wasn't planning to hijack this thread but I'll try to reply to everyone:

 

 

 

 

Your fuel economy on the trimaran is astounding.

What was her displacement (boat+persons+gear) at your quoted speed and fuel consumption?

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17 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

 

Your fuel economy on the trimaran is astounding.

What was her displacement (boat+persons+gear) at your quoted speed and fuel consumption?

So I'm going to be guessing as we never weighted the boat after it was launched.    The finished but unpainted hulls weighed about 250lbs.

Engine - 120, fuel tank, controls, seats, etc etc etc.  Conservatively the running weight of the boat was about 500lbs.    me plus some personal stuff - conservative 750lbs.

I dont have fuel flow data from that engine but I have done the same trip a large number of times to get a really good idea of the fuel use.  Friday Harbor to Port townsend is exactly 30nm.   I had a 2.5 gal fuel tank on that boat (For various silly reasons) and I'd make the one way trip with about an inch of fuel left in the tank - so worst case scenario if the tank actually held more than 2.5 gals, is 12mpg, but I think it was pretty close to 2.25 gals for the trip so 13.3 etc.

 

The cat with the same outboards actually performed almost exactly the same  - just two of them stuck together, so it has half the efficiency.     

 

The numbers for the tri though are what makes me want to build another version at some point with everything we learned.

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Tollycraft 48.  NW classic, top of the original line, happiest in displacement mode but with enough power could get up and go, cruise on plane.  Good boats- hard to go anywhere in the Salish Sea and not see a Tollycraft, even after all these years.  Last built in the early '80's?

tollycraft-48-cockpit-motor-yacht-2.jpg

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On 1/28/2018 at 11:25 AM, Red Forza said:

Can go where any race yacht can go - Gurit engineered structure, 1500 kg lead ballast and 1400 kg water ballast capacity.

42' LOA

10' beam

IMG_0787.JPG

The guy in the striped shirt looks sort of familiar. 1970's Porn Star? 

Professionally engineered structure for minimum weight / maximum strength - then add lead and water. WTF

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Nige,

If I were to get an old NACRA 5.8 and stretch it, or use old Seawind 24 hulls and put a pod on it as a poor mans emulation of your cat. What rough order of magnitude decrease in efficiency would I get against your optimised hulls?

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2 hours ago, woodruffkey said:

The guy in the striped shirt looks sort of familiar. 1970's Porn Star? 

Professionally engineered structure for minimum weight / maximum strength - then add lead and water. WTF

 

2 hours ago, woodruffkey said:

The guy in the striped shirt looks sort of familiar. 1970's Porn Star? 

Professionally engineered structure for minimum weight / maximum strength - then add lead and water. WTF

When the boat is not moving you need to sink it to make it stable.  At speed it is lightweight .

wylieskiff_brochure.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, nacrajon said:

Nige,

If I were to get an old NACRA 5.8 and stretch it, or use old Seawind 24 hulls and put a pod on it as a poor mans emulation of your cat. What rough order of magnitude decrease in efficiency would I get against your optimised hulls?

Well Russel is the source of truth for that config (I think his Skeeter with tornado hills was posted earlier in the thread)

 

that at would be a cool but different boat - a couple of things - you need to get the pod above and away from the water and the sterns don’t have the volume to support outboards so you need to have a single outboard in the center and likely significantly forward of the stern etc.

 

someone can correct me but I think Russel’s skeeter cruises at 17kts with a 15hp engine at great efficiency....

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, nacrajon said:

Nige,

If I were to get an old NACRA 5.8 and stretch it, or use old Seawind 24 hulls and put a pod on it as a poor mans emulation of your cat. What rough order of magnitude decrease in efficiency would I get against your optimised hulls?

Hi Nacrajon,

Nige's powercat "Totoro" was inspired by a ride on Russell Brown's "Grasshopper"-- Tornado hulls with a 15 hp motor that can go 17 knots and cruise efficiently at 14 knots. I had been driving a couple small commercial powerboats that summer in the San Juans and Russell's boat really opened up my eyes to the potentials of displacement power cats.  Hopefully he can post a picture of that cool boat.  My guess would be that the Nacra would do really well if you could keep it light and keep the speed bellow 16 knots.  The Seawind could be nicely efficient up to 12-14 knots or so.  Just a squint my eyes and pull a number out of my butt kind of guess.  I'm basing this on the length to beam ratio of the hulls and the sailing hull shapes that return to waterline at the transom.  But they would be more efficient at those mid range speeds than Totoro -- which is set up to push past 20 knots.

Brandon

 

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I have always been partial to straight inboard center consoles. I like the way they look and operate. Great for the kids with the swim platform, and for fishing if you are into that. much better balanced boat than an I/O.  Had a Shamrock 220 for a while, now have a 24 Rampage. 

DSCN3681.JPG

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18 minutes ago, Mike in CT said:

I have always been partial to straight inboard center consoles. I like the way they look and operate. Great for the kids with the swim platform, and for fishing if you are into that. much better balanced boat than an I/O.  Had a Shamrock 220 for a while, now have a 24 Rampage. 

DSCN3681.JPG

Yes. Inboards are great for fishing!

I like this one:

 

http://www.smithmarinedesign.com/finesse27.html

finesse27machinery-large.jpg

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Funny how this thread is titled 'Sailors Powerboat", yet there are lot of powerboat's powerboats being posted here.

looking back 50 to 100 years would show lots of efficient and beautiful powerboats, but now people seem to think that a powerboat should be incredibly ugly and have twin 250's on the back. Is that cool? I don't think so and it's definitely not going to be the way of the future.

The multihull motorboats are super interesting (at least to some of us), but there is a lot going on in the world of efficient monohull motorboats too. It would be great if more of that work was being shown here. I really like Bob Perry's 60' motor yacht concept shown on post 19 of this thread and also the designs that Bieker boats has done are inspiring too. It was getting a ride on Paul's 30' "Rippler" that first turned me on to efficient motorboats. The PT skiff has some pretty amazing qualities and the "Shearwater" seems to do it all with 60 hp. Paul Bieker is about to launch a 20' single outrigger motorboat that was inspired by the 24 footer that I designed. It will eventually be a test platform for a gas/electric powered hydrofoiler, but it will start with the new lightweight Yamaha 25 hp outboard.

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This my sailor's powerboat.  1979 Sisu 22.  Full keel, prop in an aperture, rudder.  Goes anywhere at 10 knots, easy to beach, kind of thirsty though with a modded out Mopar Slant-Six.  Install the side panels and kerosene heater for winter cruising

Stogie-1.jpg

Stogie-2.jpg

Stogie-3.jpg

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13 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

Funny how this thread is titled 'Sailors Powerboat", yet there are lot of powerboat's powerboats being posted here.

looking back 50 to 100 years would show lots of efficient and beautiful powerboats, but now people seem to think that a powerboat should be incredibly ugly and have twin 250's on the back. Is that cool? I don't think so and it's definitely not going to be the way of the future.

The multihull motorboats are super interesting (at least to some of us), but there is a lot going on in the world of efficient monohull motorboats too. It would be great if more of that work was being shown here. I really like Bob Perry's 60' motor yacht concept shown on post 19 of this thread and also the designs that Bieker boats has done are inspiring too. It was getting a ride on Paul's 30' "Rippler" that first turned me on to efficient motorboats. The PT skiff has some pretty amazing qualities and the "Shearwater" seems to do it all with 60 hp. Paul Bieker is about to launch a 20' single outrigger motorboat that was inspired by the 24 footer that I designed. It will eventually be a test platform for a gas/electric powered hydrofoiler, but it will start with the new lightweight Yamaha 25 hp outboard.

Motor boats are spontanous and can cover large distances.

this is why they are popular 

as for power...the more junk in the trunk, the more power

i wouldnt be able to guess what the best power to weight ,to interior volume ,to  distance, to sea state. ratio is 

but its more than you think. 

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27 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

Paul Bieker is about to launch a 20' single outrigger motorboat that was inspired by the 24 footer that I designed. It will eventually be a test platform for a gas/electric powered hydrofoiler, but it will start with the new lightweight Yamaha 25 hp outboard.

This one?  outrigger.jpg.39f41e5bc532081e2697eb371abb72a0.jpg

From 1 min. 21 sec. to 3 min. 24 sec. in this video:

 

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23 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Motor boats are spontanous and can cover large distances.

this is why they are popular 

as for power...the more junk in the trunk, the more power

i wouldnt be able to guess what the best power to weight ,to interior volume ,to  distance, to sea state. ratio is 

but its more than you think. 

Mister Zitski, What you think is obviously different than what I think, but I wonder if you have ever experienced a fuel-efficient or multihull powerboat.

I think that a new thread titled "Fuel efficient powerboats" is in order. I'm sure it would still attract posters with nothing good to say, but it might narrow the field a bit.

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53 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

Funny how this thread is titled 'Sailors Powerboat", yet there are lot of powerboat's powerboats being posted here.

looking back 50 to 100 years would show lots of efficient and beautiful powerboats, but now people seem to think that a powerboat should be incredibly ugly and have twin 250's on the back. Is that cool? I don't think so and it's definitely not going to be the way of the future.

The multihull motorboats are super interesting (at least to some of us), but there is a lot going on in the world of efficient monohull motorboats too. It would be great if more of that work was being shown here. I really like Bob Perry's 60' motor yacht concept shown on post 19 of this thread and also the designs that Bieker boats has done are inspiring too. It was getting a ride on Paul's 30' "Rippler" that first turned me on to efficient motorboats. The PT skiff has some pretty amazing qualities and the "Shearwater" seems to do it all with 60 hp. Paul Bieker is about to launch a 20' single outrigger motorboat that was inspired by the 24 footer that I designed. It will eventually be a test platform for a gas/electric powered hydrofoiler, but it will start with the new lightweight Yamaha 25 hp outboard.

I feel like you really need go with what works best for your given situation. If you have the means to get a sail boat and a power boat, that's great. It gives you the opportunity to go boating they way you want, when you want. I agree with you on the trend toward multiple outboards. I find the one big block 454 easier to work on. 

Now I just need to move somewhere warm so I can used them more often instead of storing them half the year. 

IMG_2897.JPG

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29 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

Mister Zitski, What you think is obviously different than what I think, but I wonder if you have ever experienced a fuel-efficient or multihull powerboat.

I think that a new thread titled "Fuel efficient powerboats" is in order. I'm sure it would still attract posters with nothing good to say, but it might narrow the field a bit.

I see how the boats are used

locally the attraction...a beautiful sandy beach island is 20 miles away...40 miles round trip.  Open water

the boat needs... seating  for four, sun beds, bimini, a simple lunch galley, cold drinks  enclosed head, swim platform , a good anchor system and if possible a rubber dingy so that you can go ashore without swimming there.

this means substantial interior volume..beam...plus  a seaworth hull form that doest get everyone wet 

boats are 30 ft...powerful. 

 

You might think I have nothing to say , but I can assure you I have been in the marine industry for more than forty years...all over the world.

 

 

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Yes to both of you but Russell has a point.

As a sailor, I appreciate different powerboats for different reasons. Some are slow. Some are fast. Some are efficient. Some not.
"Sailor's powerboat" isn't a category. More an emotional or aspirational statement.

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1 hour ago, Russell Brown said:

 

 

 

No..i have done one hell of a lot of sailing ...i very seldom use a powerboat..i am on a sailboat now.

 

a big defect of the lightweights...like the speedy cat shown ...is its bow.

 

the bow of the boat has a function..people use it.

 It is very common in areas with limited dock space to motor into the dock , bow first , and let the crew off.

Very often you must creep in , bow first , upto a beach to get your crew ashore 

when you moor a boat in a port,  it is typically stern too the dock...outboard skiffs  dont like stern too, the tilted outboard is in the way, so they go bow to the dock when moored. Crew must board bow too

Not many folks are lucky enough to have an alongside the floating pontoon berth 

the bow of a boats purpose  in life is seakeeping...it slices thru a wave , then deflects the spray ...a boat with no flare will be wet 

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9 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

 

 

No..i have done one hell of a lot of sailing ...i very seldom use a powerboat..i am on a sailboat now.

 

a big defect of the lightweights...like the speedy cat shown ...is its bow.

 

the bow of the boat has a function..people use it.

 It is very common in areas with limited dock space to motor into the dock , bow first , and let the crew off.

Very often you must creep in , bow first , upto a beach to get your crew ashore 

when you moor a boat in a port,  it is typically stern too the dock...outboard skiffs  dont like stern too, the tilted outboard is in the way, so they go bow to the dock when moored. Crew must board bow too

Not many folks are lucky enough to have an alongside the floating pontoon berth 

the bow of a boats purpose  in life is seakeeping...it slices thru a wave , then deflects the spray ...a boat with no flare will be wet 

Well, if nothing else, you have spent 40 years perfecting your own view of things.

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I think where I struggle with your response is that you are describing a huge section of power boats that are already out there.   This thread wasn't started to just list the standard power boats that already exist, so although "sailors power boat" is not defined, I assumed it meant something other than the norm.

You are also stating personal choices as facts.   Things aren't that black and white, each design feature has a pro and a con that may or may not be countered by other design choices.     Most end up being valid for their use, you seem very clear on the predominant use in your area and it sounds like you have the right boats in mind but obviously there are lots of different uses.   Some things you described are totally valid and would be listed in the "con" column when making a decision, some issues you are incorrectly projecting and are not the issue you assume them to be, some issues seem to be local to you.

It would be dull if there was one perfect boat....

 

 

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26 minutes ago, nige said:

It would be dull if there was one perfect boat....

Maybe, but at least we'd all have the perfect boat.

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I put a 15 hp Yamaha 2 cycle on a 18' Solcat with a simple 2x6 / plywood hard deck that would cruise at 12 knots ~ 6 mpg.  Fun project, some observations:

It is very wet in any chop due to the long bows with no flair

Insufficient buoyancy aft means the motor needs to be well forward, just far enough in front of the aft beam so it would clear it when raised

The mid-engine made maneuvering horrible, had to use the rudders and it was still tricky

Motor sailing was interesting when the sails hooked up just right and the motor revved

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The little boat with the ama looks like a fun boat in a nice warm place with smooth water. It’s too narrow to be practical, heaves dangerously and the boat is porpoising heavily due to lack of beam, overpowering, overloading and rough seas. I can only think of seasickness as I watched the boat pitch, roll and yaw in the seaway even with the added beam of the ama. 

And the kid with his arms up in the air at 2:28 reinforces the amusement park thrill without the safety of sitting down and the one on the ama looks like he could easily become MOB. 

I could produce the same effect by putting an outboard on a flat stern canoe and smacking a Hobie hull on one side.  Wouldn’t do that either...

I’d take a Beiker boat but none of the others I’ve seen from up there. Still think Russell has some interesting designs besides that one.

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I hung a Yamaha 2stroke 9.9 just aft of the rear beam of a Hobie 18 and used it for my 'commuter' for years. I had to add a couple of 'radius rods' made from Sunfish spars to keep my motor bracket from rotating about the rear beam and a simple triangle of plywood from the bracket along the rods to where they fastened on the front end to the main beam compression post took care of most of the spray. 

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52 minutes ago, nige said:

I think where I struggle with your response is that you are describing a huge section of power boats that are already out there.   This thread wasn't started to just list the standard power boats that already exist, so although "sailors power boat" is not defined, I assumed it meant something other than the norm.

You are also stating personal choices as facts.   Things aren't that black and white, each design feature has a pro and a con that may or may not be countered by other design choices.     Most end up being valid for their use, you seem very clear on the predominant use in your area and it sounds like you have the right boats in mind but obviously there are lots of different uses.   Some things you described are totally valid and would be listed in the "con" column when making a decision, some issues you are incorrectly projecting and are not the issue you assume them to be, some issues seem to be local to you.

It would be dull if there was one perfect boat....

 

 

I am telling you what i see...my clients, sailors.  They start out with a 30 footer, they they upgrade to a 40 footer, then they get the big boy,.,the 60 footer.

then i run into them driving a  a sporty blue motorboat...

hey, whats going on ?  No more antigua , no more copa del rey, no more sardinia ?

and they tell me that once thier three kids grew up, got thier own 30 footers ...they had no crew...no more fun. 

so the sailboat got sold and now he and his wife weekend cafe hop, go to the beach  in the motorboat 

i hear the same story many times 

sailor...graduating to motor 

its not my prejudice...its is what they want..they choose the boat

IMG_8015.png

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Thats a beautiful boat!  I'm sure there are plenty of people who buy them (and cheaper versions of similar concepts)...  no argument there....  you just come across as saying there are no other options, for anyone, anywhere....

Just to be clear, I love my run about, it does almost everything I need it to, it has some great strengths, some significant weaknesses but nothing I haven't been able to plan around or that has stopped me doing something.  It is certainly not for everyone.   It wasn't built with the idea of selling it but we are considering the kits because, in person, it gets so much interest from people who watch it or have used it.    That does not mean I'd ever expect it to be a large market, but I do think something like it has a niche in the power boat market (most likely the sailor end) that I'd love to see filled.     I am interested in selling the kits or boats because I'd like to see more of these kinds of boats out there (all of them - the PT skiffs, Paul's commuter cat etc etc), not because I'm looking for a new business.

At worst they are all just seeds of ideas for the eventual perfect boat ;)

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26 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

a big defect of the lightweights...like the speedy cat shown ...is its bow.

the bow of the boat has a function..people use it.

the bow of a boats purpose  in life is seakeeping...it slices thru a wave , then deflects the spray ...a boat with no flare will be wet 

I see long and pointy bows as a huge asset in seakeeping of a powercat.  If they are full/blunt and/or flared, they will create a lot more spray and cause the boat to pitch.  If the design is setup right you slice through the waves with no fuss at all.  

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6 minutes ago, nige said:

Thats a beautiful boat!  I'm sure there are plenty of people who buy them (and cheaper versions of similar concepts)...  no argument there....  you just come across as saying there are no other options, for anyone, anywhere....

Just to be clear, I love my run about, it does almost everything I need it to, it has some great strengths, some significant weaknesses but nothing I haven't been able to plan around or that has stopped me doing something.  It is certainly not for everyone.   It wasn't built with the idea of selling it but we are considering the kits because, in person, it gets so much interest from people who watch it or have used it.    That does not mean I'd ever expect it to be a large market, but I do think something like it has a niche in the power boat market (most likely the sailor end) that I'd love to see filled.     I am interested in selling the kits or boats because I'd like to see more of these kinds of boats out there (all of them - the PT skiffs, Paul's commuter cat etc etc), not because I'm looking for a new business.

At worst they are all just seeds of ideas for the eventual perfect boat ;)

People like me ....dont buy boats...we are so busy messing around with other peoples boats that there is no time

if i did buy a motorboat,  it would have a twist grip outboard, self bailing  and its entire electric system would be a flashlight 

as for concepts, ideas , new stuff....thats all market research...each area is different 

who knows...perhaps a sneaky , silent , no chines, low profile  cat is the perfect duck hunting platform 

you must ask the duck hunting guides

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3 hours ago, lamorak said:

This my sailor's powerboat.  1979 Sisu 22.  Full keel, prop in an aperture, rudder.  Goes anywhere at 10 knots, easy to beach, kind of thirsty though with a modded out Mopar Slant-Six.  Install the side panels and kerosene heater for winter cruising

 

 

That's a goddamn nice boat M.  What mods to the motor?

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51 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

That's a goddamn nice boat M.  What mods to the motor?

Bought it at a govt surplus auction - labeled as a re-built motor in a crate.  Opened it up and found a Slant-six lower wrapped in wax paper and grease.  Sourced all of the rest of the parts off eBay - rebuilt head, Offenhauser aluminum 4-barrel intake, Holley 4-barrel, electronic ignition module, custom dragster cam (closest thing to a marine cam I could find), wet exhaust manifold and straight pipe exhaust led out under the waterline.  

It has a wicked idle note...

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2 hours ago, slug zitski said:

I am telling you what i see...my clients, sailors.  They start out with a 30 footer, they they upgrade to a 40 footer, then they get the big boy,.,the 60 footer.

then i run into them driving a  a sporty blue motorboat...

hey, whats going on ?  No more antigua , no more copa del rey, no more sardinia ?

and they tell me that once thier three kids grew up, got thier own 30 footers ...they had no crew...no more fun. 

so the sailboat got sold and now he and his wife weekend cafe hop, go to the beach  in the motorboat 

i hear the same story many times 

sailor...graduating to motor 

its not my prejudice...its is what they want..they choose the boat

IMG_8015.png

 

That is a very sexy looking open lobster yacht!

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5 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I think that a new thread titled "Fuel efficient powerboats" is in order.

If a fuel efficient power boat (let's say 10 mpg) costs $25K more than a 5 mpg "guzzler", and fuel costs $5/gallon, it won't start paying off until the inefficient boat burns 5,000 gallons more than the fuel efficient boat, all else being equal.  That happens at 50,000 miles!  So any such discussion must include finished boat price.  Furthermore, if the fuel efficient power boat is available only to a relative few who can build them (and their labor, tools and shop space must be included in the cost), it doesn't really matter, does it.

We need a calculator like this: https://www.carmax.com/research/mpg-calculator

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Ok, this is it. 

8 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

If a fuel efficient power boat (let's say 10 mpg) costs $25K more than a 5 mpg "guzzler", and fuel costs $5/gallon, it won't start paying off until you burn 5,000 gallons (25,000 miles!), all else being equal.  So any such discussion must include finished boat price.  Furthermore, if the fuel efficient power boat is available only to a relative few who can build them (and their labor, tools and shop space must be included in the cost), it doesn't really matter, does it.

It obviously really matters to you. Yell it at the metal pole. "FINISHED BOAT PRICE."

Here, this one is a multihull, powered by the wind with tiny spinning sails and it has a windshield like you want:

 

 

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7 minutes ago, lasal said:

It obviously really matters to you.

It matters to anyone who thinks it through and gives a shit.  Too bad you quoted the erroneous number in my post, which I corrected (50,000 miles).  How many miles per year do you average on your runabout?

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I know of a ~50' powerboat with a pair of 700hp diesels fed by ~3500L of fuel on board and a bunch of bells and whistles like gensets and gyros...

It is a sailors powerboat because the owners other boat is a spectacularly large yacht (100+') complete with sails and loads of bright timberwork....

 

I guess not everybody has these things though...

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

If a fuel efficient power boat (let's say 10 mpg) costs $25K more than a 5 mpg "guzzler", and fuel costs $5/gallon, it won't start paying off until the inefficient boat burns 5,000 gallons more than the fuel efficient boat, all else being equal.  That happens at 50,000 miles!  So any such discussion must include finished boat price.  Furthermore, if the fuel efficient power boat is available only to a relative few who can build them (and their labor, tools and shop space must be included in the cost), it doesn't really matter, does it.

We need a calculator like this: https://www.carmax.com/research/mpg-calculator

ProaSailor,

That is a good reality check for an efficient power boat.  I was at the Seattle Boat show yesterday looking to see what types of new boats where out there in this range.  Boats that have equivalent rough water performance to Nige's powercat - ie deep V monohulls with enclosed cockpits, in the 22 - 24 foot range, that one would actually consider a comfortable boat to cross the Straight of Juan de Fuca -- those boats were in the $75K to $120K price range.  Fuel consumption on those boats are from 1- 2.5 nmpg at 22 knots.  Nige's boat is in the same price range and gets 5-7 nmpg.  He uses his boat more than most, with about 5000 miles per year (this is not a toy boat in that he  uses this boat as a car to get around the islands in all kinds of weather.)  Fuel cost to go 5000 miles in a deep v commuter would be about $12,500 per year ( 2nmpg , $5 per gallon fuel, 5000 miles).  Nige's powercat would cost $4167 per year in fuel (6nmpg, $5 per gallon fuel, 5000 miles).  For a savings of $8333 per year.

Also, I have never been on a 24' boat that is as comfortable in chop as his boat is-- so I would choose his boat over the other ones I saw at the Boat show on ride quality alone.

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47 minutes ago, foiledagain said:

those boats were in the $75K to $120K price range

Thanks for the numbers, confirmed by the carmax.com calculator (below).  Curious about which conventional boats you refer to(?), but I understand if you'd rather not get too specific.  Even $75K sounds expensive to me for a 24' runabout, but I know nothing about the market.  It will depend very much on where each boat is on that rather wide price range.  $120K - $75K = $45K / $8.333K per year is 5.4 years to break even, for example (or nine years at $3/gallon) .  Obviously way better if the two boats are the same price, or the one with less horsepower is cheaper than the fuel guzzler.  Cheers.

mpg.png.5f984091b1608306b4e3873a63617174.png

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Okay, now this discussion is getting interesting!

I commuted on a Honda NX 125 motorcycle (100 MPG) for about a decade and the miles I put on it basically paid the cost of the motorcycle, gas, and upkeep, when compared to what it would have cost (in fuel) to drive my small 4 cylinder truck the same number of miles.

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I think most people who are interested in a fuel-efficient "sailor's powerboat" wouldn't be expecting an ROI on the efficiency.  Boats generally are terrible investments and have dismal utilization factors.  Most don't put 50,000 miles or 5,000 miles on our boats per year.  More like 0-200.  I think there are three reasons for wanting efficiency:

  • Even when you are rich, it sucks to put $500-1,000 of fuel into your powerboat for a weekend on the water.  Even if it's not rational (i.e. the boat is costing you $1000/week to sit in the marina before fuel costs), that kind of expense is psychologically painful and can keep you from going out if you're at all on the fence.  
  • If you care even a little bit about the environment, your kids, water/air quality, etc. the thought of oxidizing (and partially oxidizing) that much liquid hydrocarbon for pleasure might give you pause.  
  • Sailors and a lot of people like efficiency for its own sake.

I had to laugh at the dual Detroits consuming 120gph.  Holy crap - three hours is my annual fuel consumption for boat + car!  We're on our F405 every weekend and seem to average about 15 gallons per... year.  I wouldn't be willing to burn 120gph on a boat somebody gave me if fuel was free.  Not judging others who might, but I think others might feel the same and be more interested in something designed with efficiency in mind.  

 

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7 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

The little boat with the ama looks like a fun boat in a nice warm place with smooth water. It’s too narrow to be practical, heaves dangerously and the boat is porpoising heavily due to lack of beam, overpowering, overloading and rough seas. I can only think of seasickness as I watched the boat pitch, roll and yaw in the seaway even with the added beam of the ama. 

And the kid with his arms up in the air at 2:28 reinforces the amusement park thrill without the safety of sitting down and the one on the ama looks like he could easily become MOB. 

I could produce the same effect by putting an outboard on a flat stern canoe and smacking a Hobie hull on one side.  Wouldn’t do that either...

I’d take a Beiker boat but none of the others I’ve seen from up there. Still think Russell has some interesting designs besides that one.

I can't believe I'm responding to you, mister Beer, because the little boat with the ama would never appeal to you, no matter how it really performs, how many year round miles it has done as (the only) family car, how much weight it has carried, how fast it goes with 20 HP, even with an insane load, how it has carried this family of four on many hundreds of 50 mile round trips to town and many 400 mile round trips to the big city to the south, also with insane loads.

No, this boat will never appeal to you. You are likely one of the many who think it's your god-given right to use as much of everything as you like while you are here and there's nothing I could say to change your mind. I will tell you however, that it is very exciting to experiment with fuel efficient boats. It's quite amazing how fast a boat can go with low HP, and how well they can handle, but it's lost on you. That's too bad. Did you know that the planet is warming?

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1 hour ago, Russell Brown said:

I can't believe I'm responding to you, mister Beer, because the little boat with the ama would never appeal to you, no matter how it really performs, how many year round miles it has done as (the only) family car, how much weight it has carried, how fast it goes with 20 HP, even with an insane load, how it has carried this family of four on many hundreds of 50 mile round trips to town and many 400 mile round trips to the big city to the south, also with insane loads.

No, this boat will never appeal to you. You are likely one of the many who think it's your god-given right to use as much of everything as you like while you are here and there's nothing I could say to change your mind. I will tell you however, that it is very exciting to experiment with fuel efficient boats. It's quite amazing how fast a boat can go with low HP, and how well they can handle, but it's lost on you. That's too bad. Did you know that the planet is warming?

 

I Look forward to more info about your kits, as my retirement approaches 4 years hence.  I think it would be lovely to purchase a kit and build such a boat for local day trips, and maybe even longer on the CT River, and Eastern Long Island Sound.  I kind of don't want to retire, but it might make sense to step off the merry go round and smell the roses a bit more often with the Missus......

 

EDIT... On  calm, summer day Block Island is only 28 miles from the mouth of the river, and Greenport, Mystic, Stonington and Napatree even less.

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2 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I can't believe I'm responding to you, mister Beer, because the little boat with the ama would never appeal to you, no matter how it really performs, how many year round miles it has done as (the only) family car, how much weight it has carried, how fast it goes with 20 HP, even with an insane load, how it has carried this family of four on many hundreds of 50 mile round trips to town and many 400 mile round trips to the big city to the south, also with insane loads.

No, this boat will never appeal to you. You are likely one of the many who think it's your god-given right to use as much of everything as you like while you are here and there's nothing I could say to change your mind. I will tell you however, that it is very exciting to experiment with fuel efficient boats. It's quite amazing how fast a boat can go with low HP, and how well they can handle, but it's lost on you. That's too bad. Did you know that the planet is warming?

Mr. Beer is generally a good person. I think your approbation should be aligned elsewhere.

 

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Quote

when you moor a boat in a port,  it is typically stern too the dock...outboard skiffs  dont like stern too, the tilted outboard is in the way, so they go bow to the dock when moored. Crew must board bow too

Not many folks are lucky enough to have an alongside the floating pontoon berth 

Well except all of North America, Australia, parts of Asia, South Africa, etc. You need to get beyond the Med slug!

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Just now, Zonker said:

Well except all of North America, Australia, parts of Asia, South Africa, etc. You need to get beyond the Med slug!

Details. He has 40 years of experience. I bet he's annoying as fuck in a bar.

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17 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Interesting. Is the engine so far forward for the IOR rating?

Nope.  The engine had a better Union agreement and demanded a cabin of its own, not a small box!

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Lovely looking boat.

Except the engine. The note on it says SABB. Not the car company, the small diesel company with flywheels the size of an extra large pizza. Also looks like a variable pitch prop.

Even though it doesn't make sense, I'd like Bob Perry's new long and lean powerboat to be a double ender too.

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16 hours ago, slug zitski said:

 

 

No..i have done one hell of a lot of sailing ...i very seldom use a powerboat..i am on a sailboat now.

 

a big defect of the lightweights...like the speedy cat shown ...is its bow.

 

the bow of the boat has a function..people use it.

 It is very common in areas with limited dock space to motor into the dock , bow first , and let the crew off.

Very often you must creep in , bow first , upto a beach to get your crew ashore 

when you moor a boat in a port,  it is typically stern too the dock...outboard skiffs  dont like stern too, the tilted outboard is in the way, so they go bow to the dock when moored. Crew must board bow too

Not many folks are lucky enough to have an alongside the floating pontoon berth 

the bow of a boats purpose  in life is seakeeping...it slices thru a wave , then deflects the spray ...a boat with no flare will be wet 

I thought docks would be more of a problem than they turned out to be in the Cowmaran, especially after it got twin engines. Docking it with one was a bit sporty in a crosswind.

I'd think your last comment would always be true but it's not a wet boat at all. You'd think it would be, but it slices waves with so little fuss and spray and the sides are so high that spray coming back aboard is rare.

The exception was when we overloaded it. It was wet, slow, pounded hell out of the bridgedeck, and was generally miserable. We returned to the dock to offload (mostly my) stuff. I still get crap about it. Hey, I wanted to carry a foldable kayak along, OK? Is that so weird?

10 hours ago, foiledagain said:

I was at the Seattle Boat show yesterday looking to see what types of new boats where out there in this range.  Boats that have equivalent rough water performance to Nige's powercat - ie deep V monohulls with enclosed cockpits, in the 22 - 24 foot range, that one would actually consider a comfortable boat to cross the Straight of Juan de Fuca -- those boats were in the $75K to $120K price range.  Fuel consumption on those boats are from 1- 2.5 nmpg at 22 knots.  Nige's boat is in the same price range and gets 5-7 nmpg.  He uses his boat more than most, with about 5000 miles per year (this is not a toy boat in that he  uses this boat as a car to get around the islands in all kinds of weather.)  Fuel cost to go 5000 miles in a deep v commuter would be about $12,500 per year ( 2nmpg , $5 per gallon fuel, 5000 miles).  Nige's powercat would cost $4167 per year in fuel (6nmpg, $5 per gallon fuel, 5000 miles).  For a savings of $8333 per year.

Also, I have never been on a 24' boat that is as comfortable in chop as his boat is-- so I would choose his boat over the other ones I saw at the Boat show on ride quality alone.

That's a lot of miles, leading to quite a savings, but the reality is that most people don't go that far and the reason people don't care that much about fuel efficiency is because it's really not a big part of overall boat math. We took a hard look at a new Blue Wave 22 tunnel hull before buying our latest boat. New because used ones are rare. It was over $60k. Probably 70 by the time I finished buying stuff for it. Plus a $30k building because I can't just let it sit outside. Does it really matter that the fuel bill per fishing trip is going from about $4 average in the skiff to about $40 in a flats boat?

The boat we bought, a used Twin Vee 22, shares some characteristics with the super-efficient multihulls in this thread, including the Cowmaran. Like the boats in foiledagain's post, it likes to go 20 knots. But unlike the efficient boats, it doesn't really care if an extra hundred pounds or so of Tom's stuff is thrown aboard. It doesn't care if the 20 gallon livewell is full or empty. It will be OK if I change the 24 volt trolling motor (two big batteries) for a heavier 36 volt with three big batteries. Or if I put a jack plate and associated hydraulics right on the transom. It doesn't care how ridiculously big and heavy my friend's tackle box is. Or that my wife carries three tackle boxes.

Of course it's not completely insensitive to weight. It can just carry more and is a lot less weight sensitive than the 27 foot Cowmaran, despite being quite a bit smaller. Yes, thirsty 150 hp instead of twin 20's. The real expense there is not the fuel. It's maintenance and replacement costs. You simply can't have a $2,500 problem with a $3,000 engine. There are a list of $2,500 problems we could have with the 150. The 150 costs a lot more to run than twin 20's, again in the $4 vs $40 per day range, but it REALLY costs a lot more to fix and maintain (and, yikes, replace). A new lower unit costs like a whole bunch of $40 days.

 

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10 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I can't believe I'm responding to you, mister Beer, because the little boat with the ama would never appeal to you, no matter how it really performs, how many year round miles it has done as (the only) family car, how much weight it has carried, how fast it goes with 20 HP, even with an insane load, how it has carried this family of four on many hundreds of 50 mile round trips to town and many 400 mile round trips to the big city to the south, also with insane loads.

No, this boat will never appeal to you. You are likely one of the many who think it's your god-given right to use as much of everything as you like while you are here and there's nothing I could say to change your mind. I will tell you however, that it is very exciting to experiment with fuel efficient boats. It's quite amazing how fast a boat can go with low HP, and how well they can handle, but it's lost on you. That's too bad. Did you know that the planet is warming?

For the record, I didn’t say it was a lousy boat, just not what I would want. There is no insult being thrown at you or your family. I live and work on the Barnegat Bay. I’m a workaholic. I work about 8 hours a day 7 days a week on boats and have never see anything multihull around here other than Skateaway and a Mainecat 30’. 

I have traditional wooden sloops, traditional Fiberglass sloops and a sport boat. Some have deisel power, a couple of 5 hp outboards and that’s it. 

I’ve read your posts, seen your boats and respect what you do. Read that part again- it’s very important for you to understand that. But at the end of the day, the multi hullers- especially Proa, go out of your way to insult the regular folk here who state their opinion regarding their personal preference. It always eroded into a shit fight and for once I stated my opinion in regard to an unusual concept boat. 

I also know that I will never see another one in my entire life...

Also, I go to church with my family every Sunday, grew up so fucking poor That we didn’t have Christmas presents, unless they were hand me downs and thrift shop clothes, lived in a shithole city, been stabbed for being white. I’ve had to crawl out from under the rubble of that shitty upbringing...You probably haven’t had it that hard, so think about that. 

And your right about one thing, you will never change my mind You have used way more petrochemical products and fuel than I have in the past 5 years. Your carbon footprint is bigger. You can’t make your boats out of logs and twigs and power them with perpetual motion

Go pick on someone else

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And I didn’t check out your profile, I hit your avatar by mistake and immediately hit the back button

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9 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Details. He has 40 years of experience. I bet he's annoying as fuck in a bar.

Briefly. Then he's the guy alone at the end of the bar.

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6 hours ago, Zonker said:

Lovely looking boat.

Except the engine. The note on it says SABB. Not the car company, the small diesel company with flywheels the size of an extra large pizza. Also looks like a variable pitch prop.

Even though it doesn't make sense, I'd like Bob Perry's new long and lean powerboat to be a double ender too.

IIRR the designer or the owner  had the engine lying around for a while, and designed the boat around it.  Pretty heavy, at any rate.  I bet the weight up there was good in chop, and may have influenced squatting? As well as the prop lifting the stern a bit- maybe-

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8 hours ago, Trevor B said:

How do you get to the head? 

Who cares? :lol: It would be a warm head!  And engine noise would be creating ‘social privacy’!

 

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6 hours ago, Zonker said:

Lovely looking boat.

Except the engine. The note on it says SABB. Not the car company, the small diesel company with flywheels the size of an extra large pizza. Also looks like a variable pitch prop.

Even though it doesn't make sense, I'd like Bob Perry's new long and lean powerboat to be a double ender too.

There’s a lot to be said for 64’ displacement sailing...

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On 1/26/2018 at 7:46 AM, Sail4beer said:

Black Tom 1950

Morton Johnson 34’

Twin 110 hp Chrysler Marine engines

Floyd Ayres Design

3E191059-D001-48E1-97AE-F9CC5233A67D.jpeg

The boat in the background was my sailor’s powerboat for a couple of years. It was a Herreshoff America cat that had run out of lives. I chopped the top off, cut out the centerboard trunk and cabin liner and installed slat benches fire and aft. I used a 5hp Tohatsu outboard in the engine well as both power and steerage and did away with the barn door rudder.

It was mocked when I launched it by the Commodore and vice Commodore until they took their turns with it respectively. It was one of the prettiest boats and was able to manouver in basically any direction with the motor rotation 360degrees. I was going to donate it to our club as a committee boat until it sank during Sandy and the “work party” they had clearing the marine basin of that boat only after the storm resulted in those same people ripping the deck off the boat trying to haul it with the boat lift. Someone forgot to start, prime and run the massive trash pump that they brought to pump the boat out as they raised it. I told them to leave it alone since I was dealing with my devastated home...wish they had listened. 

But the story has a good ending since I still have it and is an upcoming project that will once again be a thing of beauty and grace. 

That is my personal idea of a good sailor’s powerboat. Such a good boat, in fact, that it is worth all of the time and money I’m going to have to re-invest. That should make Russell a little less upset with me...a boat that I will recycle for the 2nd time!!!

I will get some pic of interior off of my computer and post them at some point 

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Since when did a proper sailor's powerboat have to be fuel efficient and affordable? The ability to attract deck fluff in port and transport back to the mothership should be a consideration, no?

image.thumb.jpeg.a6a8be977cc83e50def9f7da9268db90.jpeg

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12 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

I Look forward to more info about your kits, as my retirement approaches 4 years hence.  I think it would be lovely to purchase a kit and build such a boat for local day trips, and maybe even longer on the CT River, and Eastern Long Island Sound.  I kind of don't want to retire, but it might make sense to step off the merry go round and smell the roses a bit more often with the Missus......

 

EDIT... On  calm, summer day Block Island is only 28 miles from the mouth of the river, and Greenport, Mystic, Stonington and Napatree even less.

Funny that you mentioned Block Island and our kits. We took one of our PT Skiffs back East in 2010. I can't remember where we started from (somewhere in Rhode Island), but it was a fine day and we cruised out to Block island. We checked that out and then decided that there was time to go to Newport (power boating can be cool in that way). It got a bit rough on the way there, but next thing we knew, we were checking out the Newport waterfront. We looked for a place to buy some gas, as our 6 gallon tank was getting a bit low but couldn't find any, so headed off to where we started from (Point something) and got back with fuel to spare. I think our fuel consumption at cruising speed was about 1.5 GPH at 18 knots. The Yamaha 20 can be a bit of a gas hog when wide open (about 2 GPH). 

I'm sorry I got mad at Mister Beer last night (sorry mister beer). I get snarky when people make blanket comments about something they don't really understand.

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On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 10:20 AM, jackolantern said:

You forgot to post a photo of your tender: 

 

ba81facfb41270dcec1257ec031ffe65-Copy.jp

Would you rather drive a '65 Stingray or a Prius?    

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I traded in a Corvette on a Prius; salesman said it was the first time he'd seen that.  My commute was 62.5 miles each way 5 days per week.  The last full month with the 'vette my gas bill alone was $725 USD, the first full month with the Prius the gas bill was $140.  Not as much fun to drive but left me with extra boat money each month!

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1 hour ago, fufkin said:

Since when did a proper sailor's powerboat have to be fuel efficient and affordable? The ability to attract deck fluff in port and transport back to the mothership should be a consideration, no?

image.thumb.jpeg.a6a8be977cc83e50def9f7da9268db90.jpeg

A proper sailor should have an appropriate boat for each occasion/use?   A dock full of them so you can make the decision on the day, depending on where you are going, what you are doing, what the weather is like and the sophistication level of the fluff in question....

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One of the paradoxes of boat finance is that the maths when you start out is not necessarily where your life ends up 2 3 or 5 years later. In other words you spend some dough to own something--new or used--and then later you have much lower income, or other expenses, and the gas goes up etc and now you find yourself owning an asset you can no longer use. Compounding this is the cost of selling. Often the owner finds that there is so little to be had for the boat that there  isn't enough to get something else more efficient. So the boat just sits for a while. We see this all the time.

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13 hours ago, billy backstay said:

I look forward to more info about your kits, as my retirement approaches 4 years hence...  I kind of don't want to retire, but it might make sense to step off the merry go round and smell the roses a bit more often with the Missus...

Billy, I encourage you (and everyone else) to strongly consider retiring earlier, rather than later.

I have not yet met someone who feels they retired too early. Very typically, retired people wish they would have quit sooner.

Its an awful lot cheaper to not work, than it is to work. For me, I find I don’t lust after things like nice cars if ai am not following them around in traffic. That sort of effect is pervasive. Being a consumer is tightly coupled to working 8-5 5 days a week.

But, you have to be serious about cash flow. When you stop working, people stop doing automatic direct deposits. So things like $1000 gas fill-ups for a day on the water will start to seem insane. That is why my powerboat is gone: sold it within four months of stepping away from my 40 years of high presure work.

Its a simple and small business that brings in a few thousand a month, as you wait for retirement checks. Lots of simple little businesses work. Its easier to set up a cash machine (small business) before you are physically, mentally, emotionally, consumed by the profession of your youth.

I dont have to do anything, be anywhere today. Unless I want. Owning my time, energy, location, and the people I hang out with, is amazingly more satisfying than winning some corporate battle.

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There are a lot of powerboats that look the same at the Seattle Boat Show-- going on right now.  The only power boat I really liked was the Surf Scoter 23 by Sam Devlin.  It seemed to be the perfect combination of small enough to be easy to trailer, but big enough to spend the weekend on.  Also it had the required inside pilot house and is efficient for its size and type.  If I wasn't so into powercats for their efficiency and comfortable ride, I would be trying to figure out how to make one of these next.

Surf-Scoter-23.jpg

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13 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Mr. Beer is generally a good person. I think your approbation should be aligned elsewhere.

Two serious flaws in that statement.  The word you wanted is "disapprobation" (disapproving), not "approbation" (commendation, praise, approving).  And Sail4beer has repeatedly shown himself to be a bloodthirsty, deplorable dimwit.

 

16 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I commuted on a Honda NX 125 motorcycle (100 MPG) for about a decade and the miles I put on it basically paid the cost of the motorcycle, gas, and upkeep, when compared to what it would have cost (in fuel) to drive my small 4 cylinder truck the same number of miles.

Serious flaws in this analogy, Russell, compared to the fuel efficient boats discussed so far in this thread.

  • The price of the Honda scooter was far below the price of the truck, making it a no brainer, even if they got the same mileage.
  • The scooter is inferior to the truck in terms of hauling loads, traveling safely at highway speeds and protection from bad weather.
  • You didn't have to assemble the scooter yourself.

The Annual Savings of $8,333 in foiledagain's comparison of 2 mpg vs. 6 mpg boats is based on 5,000 miles/year (20 miles/day 5 days/week) at $5/gallon .  If you run only 1,000 miles/year at $3/gallon, that annual savings drops to $1,000, so if the fuel efficient boat costs only $10K more than the guzzler, it will take ten years to break even.

It's an inconvenient truth that in practical terms, economic constraints will prevail over environmental concerns.  Only fuel efficient boats that "pay off" will win the day.

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10 minutes ago, Grabbler said:

"Sailor's powerboat"?...howzabout Hobie's own"Katie Sue"...

5878896893.jpg

Ok. I would get a catamaran! But I’d have a pretty long line in front of me to pick up That gem

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4 minutes ago, Grabbler said:

"Sailor's powerboat"?...howzabout Hobie's own"Katie Sue"...

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That has always been one of my favorite big power cats--- amazing passage maker with plenty of bridgdeck clearance and beam.  After owning a big multihull that we ran crewed charters on, I'm burned out on all the maintenance of a big complicated boat. I'm more interested in simpler and more manageable boats now... something you can put on a trailer in the winter and forget about till spring.

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16 minutes ago, foiledagain said:

There are a lot of powerboats that look the same at the Seattle Boat Show-- going on right now.  The only power boat I really liked was the Surf Scoter 23 by Sam Devlin.  It seemed to be the perfect combination of small enough to be easy to trailer, but big enough to spend the weekend on.  Also it had the required inside pilot house and is efficient for its size and type.  If I wasn't so into powercats for their efficiency and comfortable ride, I would be trying to figure out how to make one of these next.

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Very nice.  https://www.devlinboat.com/wordpress1/2016/02/surf-scoter-22-2/

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With a 90 hp outboard on the stern, the top speed is 26mph and a cruising speed of 18 mph is quiet and economical with a fuel burn of less than 4 gph at speed. [~4.7 mpg]
[...]
The Surf Scoter 22 version is available in study and construction plans. Also available as a CNC cut kit.

 

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2 minutes ago, foiledagain said:

That has always been one of my favorite big power cats--- amazing passage maker with plenty of bridgdeck clearance and beam.  After owning a big multihull that we ran crewed charters on, I'm burned out on all the maintenance of a big complicated boat. I'm more interested in simpler and more manageable boats now... something you can put on a trailer in the winter and forget about till spring.

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11 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

The Annual Savings of $8,333 in foiledagain's comparison of 2 mpg vs. 6 mpg boats is based on 5,000 miles/year (20 miles/day 5 days/week) at $5/gallon .  If you run only 1,000 miles/year at $3/gallon, that annual savings drops to $1,000, so if the fuel efficient boat costs only $10K more than the guzzler, it will take ten years to break even.

It's an inconvenient truth that in practical terms, economic constraints will prevail over environmental concerns.  Only fuel efficient boats that "pay off" will win the day.

Its not an inconvenient truth, its just reality.    You are certainly focused on this aspect but I think you are a very small percentage of any hypothetical market.    As another poster wrote above, that is not the reason the vast majority of people interested in these types of boats will buy them.    ROI is not the big driver, Its all emotional and personal, it about the style that fits you personally, what makes you feel good (whether that is reality or not).    None of these boats IS the future, they are all potential stepping stones, at best.    I put a ton of miles on these boats but have spent far more in each modification and upgrade than I save in fuel, its a project, its a goal, its a desire to see what you can do.      In the same was as buying a production boat, people are not buying for actual nM/G numbers - they may be a fun talking point, but if someone is buying an efficient boat, its because they feel it aligns with their life choices (again, which may be completely misguided based on all their other life choices).

I didn't get into these boats because I thought I'd save money, I got into them because as a racing sailor and design enthusiast, I just couldn't stand seeing all the equivalent boats out there digging big holes in the water, burning gas faster than i can pour it out of a jerry can and I wanted a boat that I felt went through the water in a way that put a smile on my face.   I think that is the more common driver (in this niche of a niche market) than actual ROI numbers. 

That is not discounting your buying choices at all, you have your factors that drive your decisions, there are plenty of others too though.

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