Maroon

Sailors Powerboat

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On 1/20/2018 at 10:07 AM, billy backstay said:

^^^^^^  Upgraded to diesel, of course!!

Mine is still gas. Inline-6 Ford 300 that was installed around '89.

I actually own genesis (which is probably what I should have named it). Potter (who designed the 29) insisted that Dyer build the plug for the plug as if it were going to be a boat so that he could finish it off. I have heard rumors that one other wood one exists, but only rumors. 

Anyway- a few pics of year one with Scout (several years back). She was pretty rough around the edges then but I still thought it was better to get her back in the water as soon as possible, so we threw some Epiphanes one-part at the hull, lettered her, and got her in. Basically I'm saying don't look too closely at some of the finish on 'er in these pictures!

870.jpg

1220.jpg

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Great read, lot's of cool boats.   One of my powerboats was called "WindDelay" for days when there was no wind.    

One theme is a "sailors powerboat" assumes you have to replace your sailboat, or you quit sailing, or it has to be a sailboat essentially with a tiny engine and light hull.  BS, I want to be on the water with different options, get there quickly, bring friends, have fridge, tunes, heat, AC, maybe a place to sit in the sun and out of the wind too. 

It's not about gas mileage.   Cost per mile of a racing sailboat is insane, your powerboat might get 1 MPG, thats $3.50-4.00 in fuel cost per mile.   Race boats buy sails to race tiny distances for very few miles per year, do the math on a fictional J/111 doing 16 beer can races, Mac race, several other p-p races and Verve.   3 new sails per year.  $29.00/mile.   Then we have delivery sails, and all the running rigging that gets replaced every year.....powerboats are CHEAP to run.

My powerboat is used for different days on the water:  Finish racing, crew loads onto powerboat to go to dinner and awards.   Want to take 10 people to fireworks 25 miles away?  Stay warm whilst watching a one design regatta?  Have lunch on the hook in the rain with hot and cold beverages?  Enjoy taking passengers that don't like the heeling motion of a sailboat but want to be close enough to take pictures of friends racing 4ksb?   

So many boats, so little time.

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17 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Mister Beer,

Proa may rub you (and others) the wrong way, but he's pretty far from dim witted. Live and let live, man. 

If you see something that you disagree with, maybe it's only your perspective.  Maybe you need a ride in a lightweight, low horsepower motorboat!

Russell, it is Proa who is disagreeing. And disagreeable. I mean really.
Also, while you brought up this intelligence thing. Proa *is* dim. He has some kind of smarts, except it is all disconnected and discombobulated. Look, I earn my living designing ships, boats, etc. I see right thru him. He's somehow got a thin skin but likes to poke a stick at people.
When he came on a thread about Perry's design, and started posting all sorts of sketches built up over Bob's 2D stuff, I knew. And the ideas were stupid. He is a disgruntled failed wannabe. He thinks that those posts are going to earn him credibility. But they backfire. I can't imagine having to deal with him in an office. My god. It would be horrible.

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10 hours ago, slug zitski said:

 

When boats are overstylized they forget form and function... lost  space with that  reverse transom for instance 

hard to justify 

Slug, in this case that transom folds down and was a design 'feature' for carrying dinghies or larger boats--actually a very cool idea.  Besides, everyone can use a little artistic license in their boats to bring a bit of appreciation to things.  It's not all about total efficiency---quite obviously (but sometimes the obviousness needs pointing out)

Besides, when you pay some multiple of 6 figures for a boat, the extra 4' of berthing length required is inconsequential.  Length is cheap, even for moorage, when put in the overall picture.  If we were really being 'smart' with our money our lives would be boring and we wouldn't have a boat.  The good news is that there are people with both the eye, the dough and the willingness to keep folks like you employed.  Too sharp of a focus on attention to 'justification'   might eliminate the hired help too....

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5 hours ago, suider said:

Mine is still gas. Inline-6 Ford 300 that was installed around '89.

I actually own genesis (which is probably what I should have named it). Potter (who designed the 29) insisted that Dyer build the plug for the plug as if it were going to be a boat so that he could finish it off. I have heard rumors that one other wood one exists, but only rumors. 

Anyway- a few pics of year one with Scout (several years back). She was pretty rough around the edges then but I still thought it was better to get her back in the water as soon as possible, so we threw some Epiphanes one-part at the hull, lettered her, and got her in. Basically I'm saying don't look too closely at some of the finish on 'er in these pictures!

870.jpg

1220.jpg

 

Lower pic reminds me of the many years we took our kids to raft up and Hamburg Cove on the lower CT River, with our friends, including a couple with a Dyer 29 with yellow topsides, and purple-pinkish boot stripe.  They put a diesel in in a few years back, then sold it for big bucks, when they decided that they were going' to retire soon, and could no longer justify the expense.  I hope that doesn't happen to us in retirement, hope to get another boat.  Dyer 29 = Great boat!!!  

We had a good 15 years from when the kids were little until when they went of to College and emigrated to South Carolina when we spent many summber weekends on a raft-up like that picture.  Now, when we go there, it  is a whole different bunches of people...

Getting older is sometimes not fun to contemplate, but getting older sure beats the alternative!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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7 hours ago, suider said:

Mine is still gas. Inline-6 Ford 300 that was installed around '89.

I actually own genesis (which is probably what I should have named it). Potter (who designed the 29) insisted that Dyer build the plug for the plug as if it were going to be a boat so that he could finish it off. I have heard rumors that one other wood one exists, but only rumors. 

Anyway- a few pics of year one with Scout (several years back). She was pretty rough around the edges then but I still thought it was better to get her back in the water as soon as possible, so we threw some Epiphanes one-part at the hull, lettered her, and got her in. Basically I'm saying don't look too closely at some of the finish on 'er in these pictures!

870.jpg

1220.jpg

I think I'd be proud to be seen on that boat. The boats in the background; not as much.

That piece of shit in the foreground makes me want to commit really terrible acts with a bazooka-shaped-thing.

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Top right corner. Lapsktrake hull.

Might be the one the photographer missed from the helicopter...drone

congrats! I’d be proud to own that boat!!

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6 hours ago, Veeger said:

Slug, in this case that transom folds down and was a design 'feature' for carrying dinghies or larger boats--actually a very cool idea.  Besides, everyone can use a little artistic license in their boats to bring a bit of appreciation to things.  It's not all about total efficiency---quite obviously (but sometimes the obviousness needs pointing out)

Besides, when you pay some multiple of 6 figures for a boat, the extra 4' of berthing length required is inconsequential.  Length is cheap, even for moorage, when put in the overall picture.  If we were really being 'smart' with our money our lives would be boring and we wouldn't have a boat.  The good news is that there are people with both the eye, the dough and the willingness to keep folks like you employed.  Too sharp of a focus on attention to 'justification'   might eliminate the hired help too....

Yup...reverse transom , thats is how they create a long ramp for handling the  dingy ...i have the same thing.

 

looks great, works great...but is consumes a hell off a lot of  interior space on a small boat .  In a seaway , waves, its a challenge to get the dingy launched,   stored 

i have dingy stored in the transon now.  I need to do a bit of maintenece on it , but its impossible to remove while  I am at the dock without moving the boat 

everything is a compromise...on small boats i  prefer deck or davit storage  

 

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2 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

That piece of shit in the foreground makes me want to commit really terrible acts with a bazooka-shaped-thing.

shouldn't be a court in the land that would convict .............

 

legitimate targets :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I think I'd be proud to be seen on that boat. The boats in the background; not as much.

That piece of shit in the foreground makes me want to commit really terrible acts with a bazooka-shaped-thing.

Now you're getting into the spirit of this site.

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9 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Top right corner. Lapsktrake hull.

Might be the one the photographer missed from the helicopter...drone

congrats! I’d be proud to own that boat!!

They do look like drone shots, but they were actually from the flybridge of a 120' Delta!

And, thanks! It'll likely always be a work in progress, but we have made some usability improvements over the years and it is a good size for a small family for sure. I'll try to dig up some more pics.

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31 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Get digging! Wood boats are cool

B. O. A. T. - Break Out Another Thousand.

W. O. O. D. - Wads Of Outrageous Dough.

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Ok, just a few and then I'll stop this hijack...

These were after year one... I never liked the fwd facing portlight and considering the big deck hatch empties/funnels into the exact same area it was pretty redundant- so that got removed and filled. I also always thought the bow rail was just too much so I removed that and milled some custom handrails for the cabin top (although I haven't been able to track down pictures of them installed). The deck needed some fairing and then re-nonskidded it.

I can really only get MY boat into the shop once the majority of customer boats are done, so (again) don't look too closely at the waterways- if memory serves we taped it ALL out over coffee break (15min) and then did the nonskid during lunch with one more coat over the skid after work.

scout1.jpg

scout2.jpg

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And... after year two (yeah, whatever, I never got around to pulling the tape from the portlight repair... the season is WAY too short to worry about little things like that!)...the interior was, well, yuck (the boat had sat for around 10yrs before I got it).... so I removed the cabin top frames and laminated two layers of okoume 3mm to the underside of the cabin top and clearly scrubbed, sanded and painted before the interior designer (also pictured) got her hands on it. We ended up gaining about 2" of headroom, and it certainly is at least as structurally sound as the old system was.

Ok, hijack over! I just do love the boat!

scout4.jpg

scout5.jpg

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On 1/30/2018 at 11:27 AM, Scotch Caps said:

Would you rather drive a '65 Stingray or a Prius?    

I have no response to that... because the answer undermines my original joke...

 

Edit: Wow. That is some stabbin cabin. What're the guts of this boat of yours? A Dyer 29?

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13 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I think I'd be proud to be seen on that boat. The boats in the background; not as much.

That piece of shit in the foreground makes me want to commit really terrible acts with a bazooka-shaped-thing.

I'd love to see what you could do in the way of a PWC with a Torqueedo or a Honda 2.5 and some 3mm okume ply...

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27 minutes ago, IStream said:

I'd love to see what you could do in the way of a PWC with a Torqueedo or a Honda 250 and some 3mm okume ply...

FIFY

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16 minutes ago, IStream said:

I'd love to see what you could do in the way of a PWC with a Torqueedo or a Honda 2.5 and some 3mm okume ply...

I want him to build one of these using a 3-phase 4-pole AC Induction motor and a Tesla PowerWall battery system with the cabintops covered with solar panels.

Badass.jpg

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7 minutes ago, olsurfer said:

I want him to build one of these using a 3-phase 4-pole AC Induction motor and a Tesla PowerWall battery system with the cabintops covered with solar panels.

Badass.jpg

what design is that?  

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Powerwall came up on a design I've been working on. Not the proper use for it and would not be feasible on a boat. We have looked at a system that is now using BMW i8 batteries for the drive. Big Bucks!

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1 hour ago, suider said:

Ok, just a few and then I'll stop this hijack...

These were after year one... I never liked the fwd facing portlight and considering the big deck hatch empties/funnels into the exact same area it was pretty redundant- so that got removed and filled. I also always thought the bow rail was just too much so I removed that and milled some custom handrails for the cabin top (although I haven't been able to track down pictures of them installed). The deck needed some fairing and then re-nonskidded it.

I can really only get MY boat into the shop once the majority of customer boats are done, so (again) don't look too closely at the waterways- if memory serves we taped it ALL out over BEER break (15min) and then did the nonskid during BEER with one more coat over the skid after BEER.

scout1.jpg

scout2.jpg

That’s how you accurately describe that wonderful job. Don’t be ashamed, a lot of us say coffee break and lunch too!!

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I'd focus on a used Tesla Model S/X pack out of a wreck or something rather than the PowerWall.  75-100kWh.  Any reason that wouldn't work?  

That's only 2-2.5gal of diesel equivalent, but you're at maybe 90-95% efficiency versus a diesel's 30% or so - probably less over normal use with idling, etc.  

So you've got around 6-10 gallons in the (1200lb) tank.  Maybe if she's of an efficient design she could get 5nmpg, assuming a reasonable displacement? 

So max range of around 25-50nm.  You might be able to pick up a few kWH from solar over the course of the day, but not more than 5-10% recharge unless the array is really big.  

Frankly, I think that range is totally reasonable for what a lot of people *actually* do, but probably not acceptable for what people *think* they will do.  Sort of like a 60mile range on an EV.  

 

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4 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Powerwall came up on a design I've been working on. Not the proper use for it and would not be feasible on a boat. We have looked at a system that is now using BMW i8 batteries for the drive. Big Bucks!

My bad, just dreaming anyways cuz I'd never be able to talk Russell into it. Guess I'll have ta go after Nige and his cool cat!

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You don't get something for nothing, especially when it comes to electric propulsion system. A 50' electric hybrid cat I designed and skippered for a year or so only got about a 10 nm range out of 12 4D lead acid batteries! That was 15 years ago and the battery chemistries have improved but still...

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5 minutes ago, socalrider said:

I'd focus on a used Tesla Model S/X pack out of a wreck or something rather than the PowerWall.  75-100kWh.  Any reason that wouldn't work?  

That's only 2-2.5gal of diesel equivalent, but you're at maybe 90-95% efficiency versus a diesel's 30% or so - probably less over normal use with idling, etc.  

So you've got around 6-10 gallons in the (1200lb) tank.  Maybe if she's of an efficient design she could get 5nmpg, assuming a reasonable displacement? 

So max range of around 25-50nm.  You might be able to pick up a few kWH from solar over the course of the day, but not more than 5-10% recharge unless the array is really big.  

Frankly, I think that range is totally reasonable for what a lot of people *actually* do, but probably not acceptable for what people *think* they will do.  Sort of like a 60mile range on an EV.  

 

If  you go to the lakes in northern Europe,  you can find many sophisticated, fast electric boats 

they dont seem to penetrate into other areas 

 

IMG_8027.png

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You probably wouldn't be see the development of those electric runabouts if it were for the fact that many lakes and waterways in Europe are now 'no fossil fuel'. Good to see it happening though. 

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1 minute ago, Rasputin22 said:

You probably wouldn't be see the development of those electric runabouts if it were for the fact that many lakes and waterways in Europe are now 'no fossil fuel'. Good to see it happening though. 

Sure...that is the reason 

i have seen electrics...very well concieved , with an onboard diesel generator to give convenience  and range..that have failed to catch on 

sophisticated  boats are expensive 

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Yeah - looks like they are using the i3 30kWh pack.  Range is 30mi at 6mph, or 10mi at 20mph.  That's obviously extremely restrictive unless your lake is really small.

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1 minute ago, socalrider said:

Yeah - looks like they are using the i3 30kWh pack.  Range is 30mi at 6mph, or 10mi at 20mph.  That's obviously extremely restrictive unless your lake is really small.

You might as well take your rowboat.

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The cat I mentioned had 2 KW electric motors and a 15KW diesel genset that couldn't keep up for long. It should have been at least a 25 KW genset to account for all the losses at each stage of the system. Even then it was depressing to have spent that much money for so little capacity. We could have bought two wrecked Toyota Prius for the cost of the Solomon Technologies snake oil. Don't bet me started though!

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What happens when the boat get wet..flooded ?

do people get electrocuted  ?

all that stored energy must be dangerous

 

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2 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

The cat I mentioned had 2 KW electric motors and a 15KW diesel genset that couldn't keep up for long. It should have been at least a 25 KW genset to account for all the losses at each stage of the system. Even then it was depressing to have spent that much money for so little capacity. We could have bought two wrecked Toyota Prius for the cost of the Solomon Technologies snake oil. Don't bet me started though!

There ought to be a rule against gensets on electric drive boats. If you're gonna put a diesel on board, attach it to the prop. Don't make the poor thing have to go through high powered electrics just to turn the screw.

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I tried to squeeze the i3 BMW battery into my new electric cat design but those are big and flat and are design to fit under the cars floorboard and they just wouldn't fit down a hatch or sit in the narrow catamaran hulls right as the need to stay flat. They are now offering the i8 batt packs which are better suited and will fit nicely in the cat. The i8 batts fit in the tranmission tunnel in the car and have less capacity because the i8 has a big powerful gas engine as the prime mover and the battery/electric is a true hybrid and more intended to creep around the Whole Foods parking lot in stealth mode to snag a parking spot or act a a booster in the passing lane at highway speeds.

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Slug, I almost welded open ended wrenches to the battery terminals unintentionally on that system. Amazing what a big chunk of metal got slagged off of the wrench. 144 volt DC (nominal, 172 V full charge!)  is impressive when it goes awry. I always imagined a charter captain or guest climbing in the battery compartment all sweaty and still wearing his gold St Christopher necklace and going up in a ball of fire and greasy smoke on that boat. I had a fire when it got saltwater in the compartment and some other adventures as well. Like I said, don't get me started...

     Istream, you hit the proverbial nail on the head with your comment.

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25 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Slug, I almost welded open ended wrenches to the battery terminals unintentionally on that system. Amazing what a big chunk of metal got slagged off of the wrench. 144 volt DC (nominal, 172 V full charge!)  is impressive when it goes awry. I always imagined a charter captain or guest climbing in the battery compartment all sweaty and still wearing his gold St Christopher necklace and going up in a ball of fire and greasy smoke on that boat. I had a fire when it got saltwater in the compartment and some other adventures as well. Like I said, don't get me started...

     Istream, you hit the proverbial nail on the head with your comment.

Seems to me the batteries should be sealed "no user serviceable components" kind of system for this reason.  I've also shorted a 120VDC pack of 6V Trojan deep cycle lead acid batteries (3am college design project, not enough coffee, etc.) and yeah - scary as hell.  

I still think there's an application where this makes sense, keeping in mind that storage costs have dropped 80% in the past 5 years and continue to fall.  Batteries will never make sense for long hauls, but combined with an efficient hull that doesn't do a lot of mileage (i.e. most pleasure boating) it could make sense.  

Even in conjunction with a genset (ducking)... Here's a use case from San Diego: 99% of the time you're putting around in a bay (1-10nm) or out past Pt. Loma (10-15nm) for fishing or swimming.  But every once in a while you might want to go 85nm to Catalina.  A 30nm range from a Tesla pack covers the 99%.  If you go to Catalina, you bring a genset with fuel on board, fire it up when you set off and run for the 8hr trip.  Once you're there you can re-charge via solar and/or genset as your boat sits & you go kayaking/diving.  It's less efficient during that trip, but more efficient for the other 99% of your boating.  

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Hard to get a genset get that last 10-15% towards fully charged. The charge controllers taper off as the voltage goes up and few gensets have the 'smarts' to go the last lap to fully charged. Batteries in series are hard to keep evenly charge throughout as well. One bad apple spoils the whole barrel so to speak. 

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

What happens when the boat get wet..flooded ?

do people get electrocuted  ?

all that stored energy must be dangerous

 

All stored energy is dangerous right?  How many boat fires/explosions are caused by propane or gas?   I'd love to not have gas on my boat for many reasons.

As the capacity and practicality become more feasible, the  issue of "stored" energy safety will continue to be addressed.

I have no practical experience with the torqueedo batteries, but we have been looking at them for a while for our boats.   Im not rich enough get into that game quite yet though, or tolerate the decrease in range, but they appear to have put a lot of thought and development into the safety around flooding, and i'm excited about the possibility in 5, 10 or 20 years:

 

"Waterproof Housing to IP67
Even if battery submersion should generally be avoided, all Torqeedo batteries are without exception completely waterproof and can withstand – in accordance with the definition of the IP67 standard – immersion at a depth of 1 m for at least 30 minutes without suffering any damage. The waterproof characteristics of each battery are individually tested in production prior to delivery."

"Water Sensor
If battery poles are under current when submerged, significant electrolysis will take place in saltwater in particular that is some 10,000 times faster than normal galvanic corrosion. This rapidly degrades the contacts and creates dangerous electrolytic gas. The integrated water sensor detects when a battery is submersed. In this case the battery switches off automatically, preventing electrolytic corrosion and the development of electrolytic gas."

 

https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/technology-and-environment/battery-technology.html

 

https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/products/batteries-1

 

Its obviously a concern but it would be something you looked at when choosing a manufacturer etc.  (I assume electric cars have something similar as they must be designed to be safe if driven into the water of flooding etc?  - Huge assumption but I'd be shocked if not)

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1 hour ago, olsurfer said:

My bad, just dreaming anyways cuz I'd never be able to talk Russell into it. Guess I'll have ta go after Nige and his cool cat!

You too! Yeah I can’t get Russell to buy into all sorts of great ideas I have thrown at him these last couple years.

I just traded emails with him this week about doing a super simple 30-35 foot light weight powercat, but he won’t bite.

Maybe if we joined forces and ganged up on him?

(He is great to work with, I had a wonderful time with him on the SLIVER project. Great guy and super skilled.)

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28 minutes ago, nige said:

(I assume electric cars have something similar as they must be designed to be safe if driven into the water of flooding etc?  - Huge assumption but I'd be shocked if not)

Heh, heh.  Good one.

22 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

I can’t get Russell to buy into all sorts of great ideas I have thrown at him these last couple years.

Same here.

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1 hour ago, nige said:

All stored energy is dangerous right?  How many boat fires/explosions are caused by propane or gas?   I'd love to not have gas on my boat for many reasons.

As the capacity and practicality become more feasible, the  issue of "stored" energy safety will continue to be addressed.

I have no practical experience with the torqueedo batteries, but we have been looking at them for a while for our boats.   Im not rich enough get into that game quite yet though, or tolerate the decrease in range, but they appear to have put a lot of thought and development into the safety around flooding, and i'm excited about the possibility in 5, 10 or 20 years:

 

"Waterproof Housing to IP67
Even if battery submersion should generally be avoided, all Torqeedo batteries are without exception completely waterproof and can withstand – in accordance with the definition of the IP67 standard – immersion at a depth of 1 m for at least 30 minutes without suffering any damage. The waterproof characteristics of each battery are individually tested in production prior to delivery."

"Water Sensor
If battery poles are under current when submerged, significant electrolysis will take place in saltwater in particular that is some 10,000 times faster than normal galvanic corrosion. This rapidly degrades the contacts and creates dangerous electrolytic gas. The integrated water sensor detects when a battery is submersed. In this case the battery switches off automatically, preventing electrolytic corrosion and the development of electrolytic gas."

 

https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/technology-and-environment/battery-technology.html

 

https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/products/batteries-1

 

Its obviously a concern but it would be something you looked at when choosing a manufacturer etc.  (I assume electric cars have something similar as they must be designed to be safe if driven into the water of flooding etc?  - Huge assumption but I'd be shocked if not)

Sure...fuel needs to be treated with respect 

how to respect a large bank of electricity in a water environment is more difficult 

what are the regulations ?

Obviously a small toorqeedo is different from some large  internal storage with plenty of wires, switches, relays ...a bilge environment .....for both the user and anyone swimming in the water nearby 

 I know little of electric boats 

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4 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Sure...fuel needs to be treated with respect 

how to respect a large bank of electricity in a water environment is more difficult 

what are the regulations ?

Obviously a small toorqeedo is different from some large  internal storage with plenty of wires, switches, relays ...a bilge environment .....for both the user and anyone swimming in the water nearby 

 I know little of electric boats 

These are large internal banks, torqueedo isn’t just small outboards...

 

 

no idea idea what the regulations are but this is the stuff I’d be looking for if I was purchasing.

id imagine any decent mfr will too?

 

if the regulations aren’t there now, they will be but obviously it’s been thought about.

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2 hours ago, socalrider said:

Seems to me the batteries should be sealed "no user serviceable components" kind of system for this reason.  I've also shorted a 120VDC pack of 6V Trojan deep cycle lead acid batteries (3am college design project, not enough coffee, etc.) and yeah - scary as hell.  

I still think there's an application where this makes sense, keeping in mind that storage costs have dropped 80% in the past 5 years and continue to fall.  Batteries will never make sense for long hauls, but combined with an efficient hull that doesn't do a lot of mileage (i.e. most pleasure boating) it could make sense.  

Even in conjunction with a genset (ducking)... Here's a use case from San Diego: 99% of the time you're putting around in a bay (1-10nm) or out past Pt. Loma (10-15nm) for fishing or swimming.  But every once in a while you might want to go 85nm to Catalina.  A 30nm range from a Tesla pack covers the 99%.  If you go to Catalina, you bring a genset with fuel on board, fire it up when you set off and run for the 8hr trip.  Once you're there you can re-charge via solar and/or genset as your boat sits & you go kayaking/diving.  It's less efficient during that trip, but more efficient for the other 99% of your boating.  

Okay, so you said that with the i3 30kWh battery they quote a 30 nautical mile range at a speed of 6kt/hr. That equates to 5 hours of operation at 6kW of draw. Your round trip distance is 85nm, of which only 30 is covered by the batteries, leaving 55nm for the genset. That's basically a 60kWh deficit for the genset to cover. A Honda EU7000 generator is about the smallest that'll do the job, running flat out for 10 hours, allowing for charging inefficiency. That unit weighs 261lbs and is about 30" on a side. It'll use about 10 gallons of gas to do the job and will require a refill about halfway through the day due to its 5 gallon tank.

Is it doable? Sure, but it's not like you'll be toting your quiet little EU2000 suitcase over to the boat for the day. It's gonna be a big operation to get that beast on board. It's going to be running flat out all the way there and all the way back at a leisurely 6kts, and you and everyone else in the anchorage or marina are going to be listening to it all day.

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Torqeedo has partnered with BMW on the i3 and i8 battery packs. Hopefully they will have some news on that front at the Miami Boat Show.

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11 minutes ago, nige said:

These are large internal banks, torqueedo isn’t just small outboards...

 

 

no idea idea what the regulations are but this is the stuff I’d be looking for if I was purchasing.

id imagine any decent mfr will too?

 

if the regulations aren’t there now, they will be but obviously it’s been thought about.

I suspect  the regs are there now...but for commercial registered boats.

a local harbour ferry is one hundred percent electric...catamaran ....covered in solar panels ..and is rated for something like one hundred paasengers ...i see a big crowd on that  cat . .

must be some kinda regulation 

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

Heh, heh.  Good one.

Same here.

Russell is a reluctant genius. Let me know if you ever figure out how to get him excited about a project.

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19 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

Russell is a reluctant genius. Let me know if you ever figure out how to get him excited about a project.

Agreed on reluctant genius.  I'll consider myself lucky if I ever figure out how to not offend him with a proposal.  ;)

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40 minutes ago, IStream said:

Okay, so you said that with the i3 30kWh battery they quote a 30 nautical mile range at a speed of 6kt/hr. That equates to 5 hours of operation at 6kW of draw. Your round trip distance is 85nm, of which only 30 is covered by the batteries, leaving 55nm for the genset. That's basically a 60kWh deficit for the genset to cover. A Honda EU7000 generator is about the smallest that'll do the job, running flat out for 10 hours, allowing for charging inefficiency. That unit weighs 261lbs and is about 30" on a side. It'll use about 10 gallons of gas to do the job and will require a refill about halfway through the day due to its 5 gallon tank.

If you are stealing parts from a BMW i3 you might as well get the generator out of the range extended model.  It is a 2cylinder motorcycle engine tied to a large alternator (23.3kw).  It is already practically marinized since it has a heat exchanger for cooling.  I'd guess they are pretty cheap from a junked car.  I keep wondering when I'll see one installed in a boat, with the primary downside being that it is a gas engine.

I put some technical docs for the engine and i3 electrical system here: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AqokoOqNPTKZkJMgKyx-UdURDYYQag

alex

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26 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

Russell is a reluctant genius. Let me know if you ever figure out how to get him excited about a project.

PTW, R2AK, family time, there's just not enough hours. Can we clone him?

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Stealing BMW parts? 

Deep Blue, Torqeedo‘s award-winning 40 and 80 horsepower propulsion system, is the cornerstone of powerful electric mobility - from the tried-and-true plug-in electric to the highly customizable hybrid solution that provides complete energy management on board. With the new BMW i8 high-power battery, boats with limited space can now take advantage of state-of-the-art automobile battery technology and the highest energy density available in the marine market.

image.png.16814e4c3af23aae8cff6a0b04def129.png

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16 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Stealing BMW parts? 

Deep Blue, Torqeedo‘s award-winning 40 and 80 horsepower propulsion system, is the cornerstone of powerful electric mobility - from the tried-and-true plug-in electric to the highly customizable hybrid solution that provides complete energy management on board. With the new BMW i8 high-power battery, boats with limited space can now take advantage of state-of-the-art automobile battery technology and the highest energy density available in the marine market.

image.png.16814e4c3af23aae8cff6a0b04def129.png

I’m excited!   Not that I can afford that, but the direction and speed of progress will likely mean it’s feasible and (to each his own) affordable in the not too distant future...

 

the silence and and lack of vibration creates SUCH a different experience.

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5 hours ago, jackolantern said:

I have no response to that... because the answer undermines my original joke...

 

Edit: Wow. That is some stabbin cabin. What're the guts of this boat of yours? A Dyer 29?

Looks of a Dyer but the heart of a lion. The boat was designed by Doug Zurn (who does all of the MjM boats). Semi-custom series of about 57 boats built by Peter Needham on Shelter Island, NY. Design brief was a down east style boat with hot rod performance. We have twin Mercruiser 502s into Bravo 3 outdrives. Light-weight composite hull. 800 hp of snarling marine bliss. It's time efficient -- we cruise at 35 kts. On a flat day, it is literally faster to Newport, RI on a Friday afternoon than taking my car on I95.  

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6 minutes ago, Scotch Caps said:

Looks of a Dyer but the heart of a lion. The boat was designed by Doug Zurn (who does all of the MjM boats). Semi-custom series of about 57 boats built by Peter Needham on Shelter Island, NY. Design brief was a down east style boat with hot rod performance. We have twin Mercruiser 502s into Bravo 3 outdrives. Light-weight composite hull. 800 hp of snarling marine bliss. It's time efficient -- we cruise at 35 kts. On a flat day, it is literally faster to Newport, RI on a Friday afternoon than taking my car on I95.  

Sorry, AB I meant the grey dyer-looking-boat above with the cute girl in the main berth.

Shelter Islands are nice but anything by Lyman Morse would be my go for a sailors powerboat with an unlimited budget! This S&S is pretty nice too...

01_Predacious_MAIN_1340x600.jpg

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Kim and Nige,

     I have been going back and forth with the owner of this new build on the electric options for about three years now and I keep telling him that at the pace he is making decisions, there will be batteries available that will have the energy density of Plutonium! 

    He is really into 'cutting/bleeding edge' stuff until he sees the price. The Torqeedo US rep has about given up on us but it might be worth going to Miami to see what is developing with the BMW partnership. Also, Torqeedo got bought up by Deutz recently which is a big diverse engine company.  The nice little 'sustainer' diesel genset that Torqeedo has is powered by a small Lombordini diesel but that will get replaced by something within the Deutz lineup I image. I'm not too fond of the Lombardini myself and would feel better with something by Deutz but I can't find anything comparable it their lineup.

    Kim, you know that I am a big Steyr fan and I found a great little 2 cyl by them that is used as a APU which looks like it would be a perfect match for the Torqeedo charger unit and I have begged them to consider but we'll see.

image.thumb.png.095467bbe558049c822425ad191e891d.png

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Here is some info on the i3 and i8 BMW batts

image.png.09bf1b6d4ece116a18502acaad85650b.png

 

Here is the 'range extender' 20KW unit that I wish they would mate up to the Steyr motor.

image.png.db984d9ebf793a99fd741f59f671d7ad.png

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Here is the sailor's Crock Pot. It's diesel electric. Quiet, smooth, and you can switch to range extender mode but be warned that raw food increases your risk of food born illness. I'm working on one that will run in reverse and power the boat with gumbo.

image.png.7d27c8c7b5ac14ac317d45dc4e828578.png

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Looked very closely at the diesel electric retro fit.

Surprisingly simple using new ZF gear boxes that also had a built in electric drive.

There where only about 6 inches longer than my existing boxes so no major mods.

Without a stupid battery bank I could cruise at 6 knots about 25 miles and plug back into the marina power on Sunday night.

So most weekend cruising needs would be covered.

But that was about the limit.

We weight 23 tonne dry ship

 

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I should say the engines will always run on anything from EN590 to Jet A1 but I am not collecting old cooking oil yet.

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1 minute ago, lydia said:

I should say the engines will always run on anything from EN590 to Jet A1 but I am not collecting old cooking oil yet.

Local gas station which is also an excellent independant repair shop, has a waste oil furnace and they just burn the oil they drain out of Customers cars when they perform an LOF.  Probably not terribly environment friendly, but the fuel is FREE!  This is in Chester, CT, and they are one of only 2 stations in the entire state that pump the gas for you, the other is in the next town  over, Deep River, run by a guy I went to high school in the '70's.  I run 93 octane in the 268 HP WRX, and the Chester station is always a few cents the stations where I have to pump my own.  Even the Shell station with car wash, where they take of 10 cents a gallon, if I buy a ten dollar touchless car wash is higher!!!  And it takes weeks to get an appointment at the other two local independent repair shops, but they got the Missus X3 in, in just 4 days recently, for a blown exhaust gasket repair.  Some things about small town New England Village living are just priceless!

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17 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

That DAMNED Crock Pot will burn your house down!

 

A good gumbo has some serious potential energy. Be careful.

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Yanmar has a nice 'pancake' generator that bolts between the block and the transmission much like the ZF unit that we considered replacing the standalone genset on the ill fated electric cat but the numbers didn't work. Steyr has a similar pancake generator now too. 

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1 minute ago, Rasputin22 said:

Yanmar has a nice 'pancake' generator that bolts between the block and the transmission much like the ZF unit that we considered replacing the standalone genset on the ill fated electric cat but the numbers didn't work. Steyr has a similar pancake generator now too. 

I haven't tried pancakes in the crock pot, but that could work.

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11 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 has a waste oil furnace and they just burn the oil they drain out of Customers cars when they perform an LOF.  Probably not terribly environment friendly 

Say what? Dowunder recyclers take it away for SFA. Does Al Gore & Arnie know what they are up to. I'm no greenie but that's crazy. 

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6 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

Say what? Dowunder recyclers take it away for SFA. Does Al Gore & Arnie know what they are up to. I'm no greenie but that's crazy. 

Waste oil heaters are not all that uncommon. Looks like your normal home oil burner unit.  Google it.  I think the oil that a lot of giant ships burn is even less refined, but not sure. 

 

OWH-75-Front-Left-Bigger-Burner.jpg

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You said Furnace. If they are using it to heat the place I understand though that's a lot of oil to burn. 

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18 hours ago, olsurfer said:

I want him to build one of these using a 3-phase 4-pole AC Induction motor and a Tesla PowerWall battery system with the cabintops covered with solar panels.

Badass.jpg

Why cover the roof with solar? And where will the real power come from?

How many solar panels to make 25 kw?

17 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

The cat I mentioned had 2 KW electric motors and a 15KW diesel genset that couldn't keep up for long. It should have been at least a 25 KW genset to account for all the losses at each stage of the system.

That's a lot of power.

17 hours ago, IStream said:

There ought to be a rule against gensets on electric drive boats. If you're gonna put a diesel on board, attach it to the prop. Don't make the poor thing have to go through high powered electrics just to turn the screw.

The best reason I can see for it is to have one engine that powers the boat by day and the air conditioner by night. Carrying around two engines sucks.

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Reading Tom's quote of my statement about the electric motors I see I forgot to spec the size of the motors I meant to say that there were 2 9KW electric motors paired with a 15 KW genset. 18 is greater than 15 so that is why I suggest that a 25 KW genset would have been a better match due to inefficiencies in the system. 

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I helped a buddy put an 80 hp Torqueedo on his 47' Kenner with 3 of the big battery packs.  Fun project, but spendy.  It's also got a junk rig and we drop a pair of pulse jets (like WW2 buzz bombs) on it for the 4th of July etc.  Probably the only junk rigged, electric powered, pulse jet boat in the universe?

Range extender option is a 8 horse high thrust Yamaha outboard instead of the genset.

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4 minutes ago, Kenny Dumas said:

I helped a buddy put an 80 hp Torqueedo on his 47' Kenner with 3 of the big battery packs.  Fun project, but spendy.  It's also got a junk rig and we drop a pair of pulse jets (like WW2 buzz bombs) on it for the 4th of July etc.  Probably the only junk rigged, electric powered, pulse jet boat in the universe?

Range extender option is a 8 horse high thrust Yamaha outboard instead of the genset.

10 years ago I wanted to put a pair of torqeedos on a cat. But they were none too helpful with real torque data. So I passed.

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Navy ships used to run on a precipitate (as opposed  to distillate) fuel called Navy Special; essentially the tar you sometimes find on the beach after a crude carrier pumps tanks offshore. It had to be preheated to get it to flow properly and of course it was dirty as hell, which is why the Navy eventually got rid of it, but compared to that stuff, getting motor oil to burn efficiently would be child's play. 

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8 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Why cover the roof with solar? And where will the real power come from?

How many solar panels to make 25 kw?

 

Sorry, I'd just had a beer and was blowin some silly boat gas.

I grew up drunk on the power density of fossil fuels and have toyed with electric vehicles enough to know it's like drinking near beer. It might get you there, but why bother.

Thank goodness I didn't say I wanted to put a diesel sipping 50 ton Gardner in it! 

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On 2/1/2018 at 9:49 PM, jackolantern said:

 anything by Lyman Morse would be my go for a sailors powerboat with an unlimited budget! 

Was waiting for somebody to mention LM.  Took care of this 48' for two years. Starting up those 2 x Detroits 6V92TI's 550 Hp/each was pure porn and it was a lovely boat overall.

It didn't have a problem getting through the juice though :-)

 

 

 

lyman-morse-48

 

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9KW is equivalent to 12 HP. So 24 electric horsepower for the 50' catamaran. That powered it up to about 8 knots before the range suffered too bad. The snake oil salesman who was selling that system the 12 HP from the electric motor claimed that it was equivalent to a 50 HP diesel. The client drank the Kool-Aid. 

Boat was not commercial.

For you guys who like graphs

http://ikanostech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/ST37_Tests_8-05.pdf

      

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23 minutes ago, Laser1 said:

Was waiting for somebody to mention LM.  

 

For $55K

 

5380994_20161202155340375_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

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An observation on powerboat efficiency:

I've noticed plenty of planing-type powerboats motoring around in flat water at just past hull speed, i.e. with the stern wave just aft of transom.  I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish.  Fuel economy in mpg is most likely the worst at that speed, and the wake they generate is humungus.  I figure it is relatively easy to be a clueless powerboat operator, so maybe it's just cluelessness.

Regarding PWC's:  I don't particularly like them.  The thing that bothers me most is seeing a few of them showing off for each other.  I envision one of them looking back at their buddies and plowing into me at high speed.

I saw a group of PWC's coming back from Catalina one weekend.  I was actually impressed.  They were travelling together at a conservative speed and one was out of commission being towed by another.  I saw the same group (I think) on the beach at Catalina another weekend, and they had appropriate safety gear, handheld VHF, etc.   If PWC and seamanship could ever coexist, that was it.

 

 

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Overlay

    I had left out the 9 in my original post so it read as '2KW'. Those motors had torque like you wouldn't believe. With the little joystick controllers you could glide up to the dock with a good speed still on and anyone on the foredeck would run to the bow as if to fend off. I would tell everyone to 'hold on' and then flip the motors into about half reverse and anyone standing on the bow would nearly go right over the front. You had to be careful as we pulled a shaft almost out of the coupling in that manner. Those motors with todays Li-Po batteries and a 25 KW genset would have been just fine. I eventually found that AutoProp propellers were a perfect match for the system and even allowed a much improved regeneration while under sail than any other prop. 

    That boat generated a lot of interest and shortly after we launched it a charter company in Tortola sold several similarly equipped charter cats. They were a nightmare in a bareboat fleet and all but a couple of them were repowered at the builder/brokers expense. 

   I'm not sure what became of the boat I designed and built. The owner got really mad at me for pulling the AutoProp that I had borrowed to try out and returned it to the prop lender. I was upset that he was too cheap to just by a pair of those AutoProps since the loaner was such a proven improvement. We had burned through a couple sets of batteries after a year and it is a good thing that the boat was such a stellar sailer. Last I saw it was in Isla Mujeres.

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5 hours ago, Hovertank said:

  I don't think anyone's mentioned SeaPiper yet.  Neat looking (At least to me.) 35 footer with a massive range, shallow draft, optional trawler style sailing rig. 

 

 

SeaPiper-35-3-Views-1187pix.jpg

 

http://www.seapiper.com/seapiper-35/specifications/

That's a lot of boat for USD $169,000.  Let's see, 2000 NM range / 270 USG fuel capacity = 7.4 NM/gal. at 6.8 knots!?

Quote

Fuel: 270 USG / 1025 liters
Range: approx. 2,000 NM at SL1.2 (6.8 knots)

http://www.seapiper.com/4163/seapiper-35-launched-first-time/

 

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Im not so sure about the long range powerboat concept except for really rich people, Superyacht style. A motorsailer, perhaps, but what is the reward one gets from just motoring that damn long? I bet the crew develops permanent hearing damage. Some times, its perfect for sailing. Sometimes, having the sails up while powering improves the ride and saves fuel. So I get the motorsailer concept.

In fact, James Beebe, who wrote the book and got all this long range powerboat cruising thing going, in fact had a motorsailer, not a motor boat.

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The range boat is fore sale here: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2009/Custom-RANGE-BOAT-39-CRUISER-3003135/Marseille/France

I sold my Beneteau First 35 and bought a Axopar 28 AC and a Archambault Grand Surprise, so no more cruising in the sailboat just racing, and cruising in the motorboat.

 

20150402T13482108516600300Axopar-28-AC-gallery-32-E8A0970-copy.jpg