2savage

Boatyard negotiations, could use some advice...

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Coming to the end of a MAJOR repair to my 36' C&C I am a bit stuck with how to handle the final steps.  The boat yard very recently changed hands.  The previous person who ran it and did the work to my boat wants payment of the invoice presented.  It has a dollar amount to pay and not much else.  No detail of work performed.  No detail on storage or any other fees.  But here's the real issue.  The boat is not finished.  Jobs not completed are as follows:

 

1)  The cabinetry in the rear cabin was dismantled (to do fiberglass work on the deck) and not reinstalled

2)  The rear part of the toe rail was removed to continue fiberglass work.  Although I have a new replacement purchased, it is not installed.

3)  The stern rail was remanufactured but is not installed.

4)  Three winches were removed and are no re-installed.

5)  The mast is on top of a 12 foot mast rack and is not accessible for inspection and preparation for stepping

6)  I'm still on dry land because I'm not ready to splash.

7)  There are no life lines or mounting brackets yet on the port side.

 

The repairs have taken at least four years longer than I was lead to believe it should have taken. Also,  I suspect the yard has tacked on storage fees to the bill but if you have not completed the work, how can I leave?

My feeling is to make a major payment on the bill but keep four or five thousand in reserve until these other issues can be resolved.  Also should I get a guarantee of launch without further reaming of my bank account?

 Please, less of the anger and joviality this web site is known for.  I'm about to spend between $16,000 and $20,000 based on your advice.

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8 minutes ago, 2savage said:

Coming to the end of a MAJOR repair to my 36' C&C I am a bit stuck with how to handle the final steps.  The boat yard very recently changed hands.  The previous person who ran it and did the work to my boat wants payment of the invoice presented.  It has a dollar amount to pay and not much else.  No detail of work performed.  No detail on storage or any other fees.  But here's the real issue.  The boat is not finished.  Jobs not completed are as follows:

 

1)  The cabinetry in the rear cabin was dismantled (to do fiberglass work on the deck) and not reinstalled

2)  The rear part of the toe rail was removed to continue fiberglass work.  Although I have a new replacement purchased, it is not installed.

3)  The stern rail was remanufactured but is not installed.

4)  Three winches were removed and are no re-installed.

5)  The mast is on top of a 12 foot mast rack and is not accessible for inspection and preparation for stepping

6)  I'm still on dry land because I'm not ready to splash.

7)  There are no life lines or mounting brackets yet on the port side.

 

The repairs have taken at least four years longer than I was lead to believe it should have taken. Also,  I suspect the yard has tacked on storage fees to the bill but if you have not completed the work, how can I leave?

My feeling is to make a major payment on the bill but keep four or five thousand in reserve until these other issues can be resolved.  Also should I get a guarantee of launch without further reaming of my bank account?

 Please, less of the anger and joviality this web site is known for.  I'm about to spend between $16,000 and $20,000 based on your advice.

If you are trusting this site to give an answer based on pretty limited information, you are going to deserve what you get from the two yard owners.

get a lawyer.

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The first question is did you have a written contract when the project began? What are the terms i.e. scope of work; cost of labor (by trade); storage fees; insurance; delivery schedule; procedure to review sub-contractor invoices; clean up fees; taxes; remedy for disagreements etc.  Review the contract carefully and then go to a lawyer and review with him/her.

On the refits I work with we get invoices monthly with itemized labor by trade, yard expenses (storage, waste removal, water, electricity, crane use, office rental, etc.), materials, sub-contractor invoices, etc. and a scheduling update that shows where the project is and how much time is remaining. Nothing is paid until all of this is reviewed and substantiated then we pay.

It is quite normal for the yard to expect and get full payment before the boat is launched unless a substantial portion of the work will be in the water, in which case full payment will be expected before departing.  From your description it sounds like a major stage payment may be due but not a final payment...consult a maritime attorney!

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Ask for a detailed list of work performed before payment of anything.  Any further work needs to also be addressed in writing.  You also need to ask the current owner of the yard what is his understanding of your situation, as any promises the past owner is making relative to storage and lunch moving forward is no longer in his capacity to make. 

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28 minutes ago, 2savage said:

Coming to the end of a MAJOR repair to my 36' C&C I am a bit stuck with how to handle the final steps.  The boat yard very recently changed hands.  The previous person who ran it and did the work to my boat wants payment of the invoice presented.  It has a dollar amount to pay and not much else.  No detail of work performed.  No detail on storage or any other fees.  But here's the real issue.  The boat is not finished.  Jobs not completed are as follows:

 

1)  The cabinetry in the rear cabin was dismantled (to do fiberglass work on the deck) and not reinstalled

2)  The rear part of the toe rail was removed to continue fiberglass work.  Although I have a new replacement purchased, it is not installed.

3)  The stern rail was remanufactured but is not installed.

4)  Three winches were removed and are no re-installed.

5)  The mast is on top of a 12 foot mast rack and is not accessible for inspection and preparation for stepping

6)  I'm still on dry land because I'm not ready to splash.

7)  There are no life lines or mounting brackets yet on the port side.

 

The repairs have taken at least four years longer than I was lead to believe it should have taken. Also,  I suspect the yard has tacked on storage fees to the bill but if you have not completed the work, how can I leave?

My feeling is to make a major payment on the bill but keep four or five thousand in reserve until these other issues can be resolved.  Also should I get a guarantee of launch without further reaming of my bank account?

 Please, less of the anger and joviality this web site is known for.  I'm about to spend between $16,000 and $20,000 based on your advice.

FOUR YEARS !!!!!!

Something fishy . 

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yeah, we do multi-million dollar refits in a few weeks. Four years??

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My clients want the work done yesterday.

invoices are sent to the client as they are recieved.

all bills paid at the end of month unless agrrements   have been made 

 

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28 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

FOUR YEARS !!!!!!

Something fishy . 

I was warned by a local sail maker friend  that dates at this yard are 'elastic'.    I accepted this because at the time my re-launch requirements were also elastic.  But now it's time to close up this situation.  Problem seems to be communication.  Which yard am I dealing with?  Who?   I have had no correspondence of the change of ownership.  This seems to be an omission on behalf of the yard when it comes to the hand-off from one manager to another of a current customer.

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3 hours ago, sailronin said:

The first question is did you have a written contract when the project began? What are the terms i.e. scope of work; cost of labor (by trade); storage fees; insurance; delivery schedule; procedure to review sub-contractor invoices; clean up fees; taxes; remedy for disagreements etc.  Review the contract carefully and then go to a lawyer and review with him/her.

This is the first question, but if not then:

 

24 minutes ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

Sit down with the guy you first organised the work with and hash it out. Be honest about your concerns. 

 

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I second Alcatraz's suggestion, but might consider making the meeting a 3 way between the old guy, the new guy, and you...

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A number of posters have told you to get a lawyer. This is the only advice you need. Your problems started a long time ago and have been getting worse. The only thing left is that you are unaware of how big they are.

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4 hours ago, 2savage said:

I was warned by a local sail maker friend  that dates at this yard are 'elastic'.    I accepted this because at the time my re-launch requirements were also elastic.  But now it's time to close up this situation.  Problem seems to be communication.  Which yard am I dealing with?  Who?   I have had no correspondence of the change of ownership.  This seems to be an omission on behalf of the yard when it comes to the hand-off from one manager to another of a current customer.

How much communication have you had with the new owner? How much documentation does he have of the work done?

I would recommend talking it over with him, and point out that you have been waiting for years for the boat. With no documentation, he has no proof that you owe him a penny (although that probably shouldn't be the first words out of your mouth). I would also not mention lawyers in this first conversation, but keep it in reserve. What you want to do is approach him in good faith and be ready to demonstrate your good faith (assuming he is too).

This is a huge amount of money to spend on a C&C 36...... nice boat but you're looking at paying out half or more of what it would cost you to go buy the best one on the market. I think things went off the track quite a while back ...... actually it may not hurt to say that, and ask for the new owners help in getting things ON track. If you know for a fact work has been done that you have not paid for, then in good faith you should pay..... but not necessarily top dollar plus (on account of having to wait so long). And you shouldn't pay one dime for work that you have questions about.

Good luck, sorry to hear about your project's derailment

FB- Doug

 

 

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Lawyers for this query? Fucking idiots. You’d lose more from your wallet and any good-will would vanish before the lawyer finishes introducing themself.

Alcatraz and Crash have it right. Have a good guesstimate of what is owed to date: If yardman1 is the right guy, then you square a fair debt. If yardman2 is the right guy, then you square a fair debt to date.

...either way, you have a chance to start anew with yardman2 with a bit more sense, and give him encouragement that you pay and make it more likely he’ll want to help finish work on your boat. 

 

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1 hour ago, HFC Hunter said:

Lawyers for this query? Fucking idiots. You’d lose more from your wallet and any good-will would vanish before the lawyer finishes introducing themself.

You do need to talk to a lawyer.  You do not necessary need to introduce your lawyer to the boatyard folks. There are things you need to know before you talk to the yard.  For example, you need to know whether you're at risk of the yard taking the boat through an adverse lien action. You need to know to ask whether the new owners bought the accounts receivable.  You need to know to ask whether you've been dealing with an entity that may no longer exist.  There's lots to know. 

If you don't know a lawyer with the right skill set, call your local bar association.  They will almost certainly have a referral service that can connect you with a qualified lawyer for a nominal fee. 

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27 minutes ago, sshow bob said:

You do need to talk to a lawyer.  You do not necessary need to introduce your lawyer to the boatyard folks. There are things you need to know before you talk to the yard.  For example, you need to know whether you're at risk of the yard taking the boat through an adverse lien action. You need to know to ask whether the new owners bought the accounts receivable.  You need to know to ask whether you've been dealing with an entity that may no longer exist.  There's lots to know. 

If you don't know a lawyer with the right skill set, call your local bar association.  They will almost certainly have a referral service that can connect you with a qualified lawyer for a nominal fee. 

+100

 

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Go and have a face to face meeting with the new owners and start negotiating a final price. If this has been going on for 4 years then it will be a complete legal clusterfuck and getting lawyers on board now will just add costs for limited results.

you didn’t get a written agreement prepared and signed at the get go. Probably saved you a few hundred at the time. Going to cost you a few thousand now. Good luck.

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7 hours ago, HFC Hunter said:

Lawyers for this query? Fucking idiots. You’d lose more from your wallet and any good-will would vanish before the lawyer finishes introducing themself.

Alcatraz and Crash have it right. Have a good guesstimate of what is owed to date: If yardman1 is the right guy, then you square a fair debt. If yardman2 is the right guy, then you square a fair debt to date.

...either way, you have a chance to start anew with yardman2 with a bit more sense, and give him encouragement that you pay and make it more likely he’ll want to help finish work on your boat. 

 

Yah..lawyers, what a terrible thought.

pay your bills, not lawyers 

 

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6 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Yah..lawyers, what a terrible thought.

pay your bills, not lawyers 

 

I don’t know from what Slavic country you come, so I’ll forgive your lack of understanding. He doesn’t have an itemized bill and is going to need legal help to insure he doesn’t end up with two mechanics liens against his boat for the same work.

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Yah..he left his boat abandoned for 4 years.

now he remembers about it 

on the other end of that bill is some working class guy  who did the work. 

pay the bill...then in future sharpen up your act 

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2 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Yah..he left his boat abandoned for 4 years.

now he remembers about it 

on the other end of that bill is some working class guy  who did the work

pay the bill...then in future sharpen up your act 

 

It doesn't appear that a whole lot of "work" was completed over 4 years????

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3 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

It doesn't appear that a whole lot of "work" was completed over 4 years????

Quite possibly due to lack of communication and payments. 

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Sounds like it must be one of the finer yards on City Island.....just a guess.

Did you have a signed contract? 

I think the real question is this. Who did you contract to do the work, the former yard owner or the yard? Important distinction. If you contracted with Acme Boat Works, and the owner of Acme Boat Works sells the business (the business, not necessarily the property) then it is the business you owe the money to not the now former owner. My suspicion is that the guy who drives that blue Stingray (again just a guess) is trying to get you to pay him and the new owner is none the wiser. If I were you I would ask for a pow-wow with former and new owner and while all in the same room, come to an agreement who you owe for what. Put it in writing and have all parties sign. Four years to repair (which is comical) will seem like a walk in the park when the sheriff seizes/put a lean on the boat while the courts sort out who you owe.

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13 minutes ago, Bastiat said:

Keep in mind. Withholding payment is your strongest, and perhaps only, negotiating tool.

Also a damn good way to make sure nothing gets done. Sounds as if both parties can share the blame for this situation. 

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Just now, mad said:

Also a damn good way to make sure nothing gets done. Sounds as if both parties can share the blame for this situation. 

Yah...i work with boats for living...the past 40 years. 

the typical unpaid goes like this...you are sent to a project...autopilot doesnt work....you spend 5 hours chasing down the system , everything ok, but the drive unit doesn't function ...you strip off the drive unit, bring it to the workbench , dissassmble and ...its kaput, full of water .  

Work stops , You call the client ...give him the bad news... 1000 dollars, two weeks...for a new part 

he thinks about it....

no answer after a few weeks...email again...no answer...send invoice for work performed ...no answer.

 

 

 

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I do find it odd that work has apparently been going on for four years without any stage payments. Think there's a lot more to the story.

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5 minutes ago, JimC said:

I do find it odd that work has apparently been going on for four years without any stage payments. Think there's a lot more to the story.

Yup...boats are toys...when owners grow tired of thier toy the forget about them..dont pay bills...leave them over there

then  one day they remember thier toy 

the boat business is a nasty place to make a living...you will have many unpaid invoices. Very hard to chase down the money 

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It sounds like a lot less than $16-20,000 in repair/ re-assembly of cabinetry, toe rails and lifeline stanchions. More like $5,000 at most. I’d personally ask for a breakdown of labor costs and materials and try to calmly negotiate from that point. There should have been an agreement as to yard labor /hour or a general cost estimate based on similar work on other yachts. You may be lucky if the previous yard manager has no signed agreement.

Also, if you feel that you may be getting the shaft or ripped off, there are admiralty laws that protect boat owners against consumer fraud. If you feel that is the case, going to court could get the bill cancelled and the court could find the yard liable of consumer fraud and award you up to 3x what the yard is trying to “extort” out of you.

That said, I’d try to get the work completed without a big fight so you can finally get out on the water. Sounds like easy work to complete if the ‘glass work has been finished...

My Dad got a bill for $10,000 from our local yard when the owner decided to bill after 4 or 5 years...

Thus began my marine construction career. I still have my own yard bills for storage, but the work is done by me...

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2 hours ago, Bastiat said:

Keep in mind. Withholding payment is your strongest, and perhaps only, negotiating tool.

Be very, very careful of this.  Many (most?) states have a statute that will allow the yard to sell your boat under certain circumstances if you don't pay up.  If their contract is written correctly, you may not even get notice in some states.  

Talk to a lawyer who knows this area of law in the state your boat is in.  Paying for an hour of advice might save you a lot of heartache.

Thank you, Jammer - yes, I'm a lawyer; no I'm not your lawyer. Etc.

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1 minute ago, sshow bob said:

Be very, very careful of this.  Many (most?) states have a statute that will allow the yard to sell your boat under certain circumstances if you don't pay up.  If their contract is written correctly, you may not even get notice in some states.  

Talk to a lawyer who knows this area of law in the state your boat is in.  Paying for an hour of advice might save you a lot of heartache.

Thank you, Jammer - yes, I'm a lawyer; no I'm not your lawyer. Etc.

Yes....be very careful.

failure to deliver services is a legitimate reason for a client  to withhold payment 

again...be careful if you try that routine 

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I see a lot of advice to sit down and reach an agreement.  I see a lot of advice to lawyer up.  All of that is premature.

First, sit down and ask lots of questions.  You need to arm yourself with info before you can plan the next step.  What was done?  By whom?  What are the rates?  Did you agree to all of the above in advance?  What will it cost to finish the job?  Etc.  Agree to nothing at that stage.  Go home and think.

If everything makes sense, pay for the work done.  If not, call a lawyer for advice.  Don’t let the lawyer talk to the yard if you want to see your boat completed in a satisfactory fashion.

Yes, the yard can sell the boat to satisfy a mechanics lien.  The hoops they have to jump through to accomplish that will depend on whether the boat is USCG documented, and on state law.  If they haven’t threatened that yet, don’t worry about it, yet.

You’re in a sticky situation for negotiation since the boat is unfinished and you have to rely on them until completion.  If it were completed, you could play hardball, give them a percentage as payment in full, and part ways.

I am not your lawyer.

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On 1/28/2018 at 9:06 AM, slug zitski said:

Yup...boats are toys...when owners grow tired of thier toy the forget about them..dont pay bills...leave them over there

then  one day they remember thier toy 

the boat business is a nasty place to make a living...you will have many unpaid invoices. Very hard to chase down the money 

BINGO!

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On 1/28/2018 at 8:20 AM, BillDBastard said:

Sounds like it must be one of the finer yards on City Island.....just a guess.

Did you have a signed contract? 

I think the real question is this. Who did you contract to do the work, the former yard owner or the yard? Important distinction. If you contracted with Acme Boat Works, and the owner of Acme Boat Works sells the business (the business, not necessarily the property) then it is the business you owe the money to not the now former owner. My suspicion is that the guy who drives that blue Stingray (again just a guess) is trying to get you to pay him and the new owner is none the wiser. If I were you I would ask for a pow-wow with former and new owner and while all in the same room, come to an agreement who you owe for what. Put it in writing and have all parties sign. Four years to repair (which is comical) will seem like a walk in the park when the sheriff seizes/put a lean on the boat while the courts sort out who you owe.

The boat is not in the yard, that is owned by the guy in the blue stingray, if it were there would be no issues.

The work would have been done and the yard owner has integrity. It's in the yard next door behind Doyle.

I am sure there is another side to this story. 

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The yard is right below Doyle sails.I picked up a boat there last year. While I was getting the boat loaded on my trailer at the travel lift the yard guys started spraying a white hull in the shed 20’ upwind of me with Dark blue Awl Grip-door wide open. I was really pissed off!! I think the furious cursing got him to close the door. He was wearing a paper suit and spraying without a mask. What a fool. 

The sales guy there is nice from what I remember.

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Wow this thread got quiet :o

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On 1/29/2018 at 6:26 PM, Sail4beer said:

The yard is right below Doyle sails.I picked up a boat there last year. While I was getting the boat loaded on my trailer at the travel lift the yard guys started spraying a white hull in the shed 20’ upwind of me with Dark blue Awl Grip-door wide open. I was really pissed off!! I think the furious cursing got him to close the door. He was wearing a paper suit and spraying without a mask. What a fool. 

The sales guy there is nice from what I remember.

If that was a real shipyard ...you would speak to a lawyer, the lawyer would send a surveyor to look for overspray  on your boat and if its found.....somebody would have a bad day 

at do it yourself yards its more difficult .....your only defense is a baseball bat and an angry dog 

 

 

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Wow - a LOT of issues to unpack here.

1. First off, WTF happened to the boat?

2. How did 4 years go by with no payment? What exactly did they do?

3. What person or business entity did this work?

4. Does the new yard owner know about all this?

You do have some leverage, as the boat sits she is worth scrap metal for the keel and maybe $$$ for the engine if it runs. It isn't like anyone sane would want the boat instead of money.

So keep in mind you can buy another working boat for that much money.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/C-%26-C--3131217/Stamford/CT/United-States#.WnN0geZOneQ

Might be easier to just buy that one  ;)

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1 hour ago, jesposito said:

Wow this thread got quiet :o

Too weird; not enough data; all the advice already given anyway...

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36 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

It isn't like anyone sane would want the boat instead of money.

Yeah, but that's universally true...

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15 minutes ago, sshow bob said:

Yeah, but that's universally true...

I mean as a business decision. You can have an old half-fixed boat that might be worth $25K-$35K in GOOD condition which this one is clearly not in yet, or $15,000 + in cash. An old damaged boat is about as non-liquid as asset as I can imagine.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Wow - a LOT of issues to unpack here.

1. First off, WTF happened to the boat?

2. How did 4 years go by with no payment? What exactly did they do?

3. What person or business entity did this work?

4. Does the new yard owner know about all this?

You do have some leverage, as the boat sits she is worth scrap metal for the keel and maybe $$$ for the engine if it runs. It isn't like anyone sane would want the boat instead of money.

So keep in mind you can buy another working boat for that much money.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/C-%26-C--3131217/Stamford/CT/United-States#.WnN0geZOneQ

Might be easier to just buy that one  ;)

This wouldn't be an issue if the boat had insurance on it before it went up on the bricks 

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38 minutes ago, jesposito said:

This wouldn't be an issue if the boat had insurance on it before it went up on the bricks 

I assumed there was no insurance or this issue would have been handled years ago.

Either way, the OP is being presented with a yard bill that exceeds the current value of the boat. He has some more leverage than usual, because if he has the cash to pay the bill he also can get another boat and the yard is not going to recover their costs by executing a lien and selling the boat.

* just got an idea. Tell the yard to pound sand and sign the boat over to them. Wait for the auction and buy the boat back for likely under 50% of the yard bill and maybe a lot less than that :D

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2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I assumed there was no insurance or this issue would have been handled years ago.

Either way, the OP is being presented with a yard bill that exceeds the current value of the boat. He has some more leverage than usual, because if he has the cash to pay the bill he also can get another boat and the yard is not going to recover their costs by executing a lien and selling the boat.

* just got an idea. Tell the yard to pound sand and sign the boat over to them. Wait for the auction and buy the boat back for likely under 50% of the yard bill and maybe a lot less than that :D

That's great advise, you are 100% correct on that.

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Are you guys sure the yard cannot pursue him directly for the excess? The yard probably could do that here in  Maine - the lien sale reduces the amount due by the sale price, but doesn't eliminate the difference between the total amount due and that the sale price.

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On 1/27/2018 at 8:06 AM, 2savage said:

Coming to the end of a MAJOR repair to my 36' C&C I am a bit stuck with how to handle the final steps.  The boat yard very recently changed hands.  The previous person who ran it and did the work to my boat wants payment of the invoice presented.  It has a dollar amount to pay and not much else.  No detail of work performed.  No detail on storage or any other fees.  But here's the real issue.  The boat is not finished.  Jobs not completed are as follows:

 

1)  The cabinetry in the rear cabin was dismantled (to do fiberglass work on the deck) and not reinstalled

2)  The rear part of the toe rail was removed to continue fiberglass work.  Although I have a new replacement purchased, it is not installed.

3)  The stern rail was remanufactured but is not installed.

4)  Three winches were removed and are no re-installed.

5)  The mast is on top of a 12 foot mast rack and is not accessible for inspection and preparation for stepping

6)  I'm still on dry land because I'm not ready to splash.

7)  There are no life lines or mounting brackets yet on the port side.

 

The repairs have taken at least four years longer than I was lead to believe it should have taken. Also,  I suspect the yard has tacked on storage fees to the bill but if you have not completed the work, how can I leave?

My feeling is to make a major payment on the bill but keep four or five thousand in reserve until these other issues can be resolved.  Also should I get a guarantee of launch without further reaming of my bank account?

 Please, less of the anger and joviality this web site is known for.  I'm about to spend between $16,000 and $20,000 based on your advice.

Lots of good advice so far, but I'm curious as to whether it is a 36 or a 34+. As Kent Island says, you can buy another boat for those numbers if it's an older 36.

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36 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

* just got an idea. Tell the yard to pound sand and sign the boat over to them. Wait for the auction and buy the boat back for likely under 50% of the yard bill and maybe a lot less than that :D

I'm pretty sure that, over here at least, if the sale of the boat doesn't make the sum of the bill you are still responsible for the balance.

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Presenting a bill for *4 years* worth of work that reads "Did some shit, please give me $16,000" might not work out real well in court. This does beg the question of what kind of "business" would work that way anyway. It is beyond gross incompetence to work on something that long without billing anyone*

* or maybe the work was done 4 years ago and the OP is just now trying to get the boat back??????

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:
12 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I think the OP has vanished.

Goodbye, you're welcome.

If he comes back and fills in some blanks, we might come up with better advice.

I think he fucked up. I think the former yard owner / contractor also fucked up. He has to identify his goals and yes, fill in some blanks.

-DSK

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Either a fine bit of trolling, and/or a confession of neglect/distraction. Letting your boat be 4 years in repair and not getting monthly billing is a tad extreme to say the least. 

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Is this a 60s era centerboard 36 footer, the 70s era 36, the 34+ (36 feet long), or the 110 (also 36 feet long). The latter two could be worth quite a bit more than $50K, but if she is one of the first two then the total yard bill is going  very close to the value of the boat when repaired.

I have been in the middle of these messes before. Mr A hires me to fix the radar and add a thru-hull. Boat comes out and has blisters. A wants them fixed too while the boat is out, so I hire shop B to peel and redo the bottom. Unknown to me, they sub out to Mr. C. C does a crap job, the owner doesn't want to pay me, I don't want to pay B, B already paid C, and the yard isn't doing shit until THEY get paid. I ended up forcing B to redo the bottom on their dime because we had no agreement at all in regards to C and that issue should never have been my problem. The owner was on the phone with me almost daily. If he had vanished for 4 years who knows what would have happened.

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10 minutes ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

If you were acting as a general contractor then A dosnt give a fork about the rest of the alphabet. His deal is with you.  Your prob to fix. 

Yes exactly and that is what I did. Likewise I told B I didn't give a shit about C, his employees and contractors were not my issue.

Back to the OP - at this point we have no idea if the new yard owner knows anything more than that a 2/3s fixed boat is sitting there taking up space. Or he could think he "bought" that job AND the original person/company might ALSO think they are owed the money. You could pay the old guy and have the new guy refuse to launch.

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9 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

Hold the phone!

I believe the ex name of the C&C was 'Starship Enterprise' and it could be worth well more than that in spare parts alone. The nuclear Warp Drive Impulse engine  alone is worth $100m.  There are probably Phasers lying in the bottom of lockers, Particle Beam Transporters, those cool WalkyTalkies.  (Prob won't work on VHF signals though) And then there is the cache and pedigree of the prior owner's iconic racing history in the ALIR non spinnaker division.  Don't be too quick to sell. Get a NAMS certified surveyor with Star Trek endorsement credentials to inspect her! 

 

Yeah, but what about all the bad karma from the dead red shirts laying around?

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1 hour ago, BillDBastard said:

Not Enterprise, different boat owned by a different whack job.

The old Enterprise was a C&C 34, not 36.

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Trainwreck or not, how does someone claiming to hail from PNW know or claim to know the histrionics of boats sailing in the puddle that is Eastchester Bay? That I think is the bigger question of this particular thread's drift.

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Ten years ago I went through the same wringer.  I was new in town so picked the yard closest to my marina; they'd been in business for fifty years.  Unbeknownst to me the yard had been bought out by a rival yard in town and all employees would lose their jobs in 60 days, so they were less than enthusiastic.  The "contract" was a signed punch list of tasks with estimates.  It turned into a carnival of errors:

  • Replace gate valve with ball valve  on cockpit drain  turned into replace through hull and install ball valve.  Ostensibly the gate valve was stuck but sawsalling it off would have left plenty of thread on the through hull for a new ball valve.  Reason;  the yard boss shrugged  his shoulders, didn't think of that.  5 times the cost of just the ball valve replacement estimate.
  • Bottom paint with  Pettit Trinidad,  dropped by the boat to discover they were applying  cheap "yard paint" so I said start over using Trinidad per the "contract."  Reason:  the painter wasn't told to use Trinidad.  I got billed for 1/2 gallon of yard paint & labor in addition to the Pettit application because "the yard paint is also on your boat so you're charged for it."
  • Install 1/2" u-bolt on bow below stemhead for anchor snubber, with glassed in backing plate.  They installed a 1/4" u-bolt with washers, because "it'll be strong enough".  I insisted they tear it out and install 1/2" u-bolt per punch list because I'd ran the numbers and 1/2"  w/backing plate met anticipated load specs.  Ended up with a 1/2" u-bolt with a tiny backing plate bedded in 5200.  Billed for labor and parts to install the 1/4" u-bolt,  and the 1/2" one, twice the estimate.  Also they didn't trim the 2 inches of excess threads in the anchor locker, which would have caught on the anchor rode,  I got to do that myself later.
  • Paint on new bootstripe.  Excellent job, but  came in at 2 1/2 times the estimate.  Reason; near the end of the job it turned out the tape job was misapplied and the bootstripe was misaligned by 3" between port and starboard  They decided to strip and redo it.  "Hey, labor is labor, and an estimate's only an estimate."  What really pissed me off is they didn't inform me. I probably could have lived with the original job.
  • Pull and straighten or replace shaft.  Well done, except see below.
  • Compound and buff job.  They burnt off all the vinyl  badging.
  • 1 week job estimate turned in to 5 weeks.  Reason;  "all the problems and high absenteeism."  They didn't charge for laydays because it was all yard labor, so I can't complain, so they said.
  • Billed for pricey skeg fairing (speed flaps) done on the boat next to me.  Woops, their mistake, removed it from my bill.

When it was all said and done the bill came in 80% above estimate.  No additional work was done upon discovery of a problem.  I'd been cool as a cucumber during this debacle, but I complained mightily about the bill considering the added costs were their fault, not due to acts of God.  They said "no pay, no splash"  and starting now I would be charged laydays till I paid.  I was already pissed off because I ended up taking a half hour off of work  3 times a week to drive to the yard and try to keep things under control, which wasn't too hard because many days my boat hadn't been touched.  I had a consult with my marine surveyor who said pay 'em and walk away, lesson learned.  Next time I should ask around before hauling.

Paid them and had one more appalling experience.  When I showed up to take the boat it was sitting rather low in the water, turns out the stuffing box had not been tightened (nut only finger tight) and the bilge was full of water and spilling out of the floorboards, the cabin sole was becoming awash.  Unbelievably the bilge alarm cockpit horn wires had been cut which they admitted doing "because there was a loud siren going off in your boat" which they thought was related to an engine alarm.  When I ran up to the yard super yelling my head off I admit they were shocked and became very interested in dewatering my boat, using two AC pumps.  They even cancelled the two laydays they'd charged me for paying late.  Two weeks later they yard was gone, travelifts gone, etc.  Later the whole site was bulldozed and declared a hazardous waste site, which really goofed up the new owner's plan to sell it to a condo developer,  who also ran afoul of the Coastal Commission's ruling that housing was improper zoning for a marine commercially zoned parcel.  Ten years later it's still a dirt lot; karma's a bitch.

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26 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Trainwreck or not, how does someone claiming to hail from PNW know or claim to know the histrionics of boats sailing in the puddle that is Eastchester Bay? That I think is the bigger question of this particular thread's drift.

Histrionics? " exaggerated dramatic behavior designed to attract attention. " ?

I'm on the same C&C email list as hundreds of other C&C owners all over the world, word gets around.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, likely story, tell it to the Marines and all that............ hey, wait a second, you aren't one of them there Cliffie sock puppets now are ya? Holy Cow, you are!!! It all starts to make sense....all comes into focus. Slip in one or two clam digger comments to Expo and it is a done deal.

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Just now, BillDBastard said:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, likely story, tell it to the Marines and all that............ hey, wait a second, you aren't one of them there Cliffie sock puppets now are ya? Holy Cow, you are. It all starts to make sense....all comes into focus.

No, but I remember Cliffie from the list in the good old days, before he started dressing in women's clothing.

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Give him the C &C 36 in lieu of payment. That will teach him. And if you take business advice from Slug then you are even stupider that he is...if that is posiable.

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16 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Give him the C &C 36 in lieu of payment. That will teach him. And if you take business advice from Slug then you are even stupider that he is...if that is posiable.

Great advice my good man.....might I suggest in the future  it would have had a bit more credence if you were to have spelled "posiable" correctly. 

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17 hours ago, Ishmael said:

No, but I remember Cliffie from the list in the good old days, before he started dressing in women's clothing.

Oh he's always done that, he just came out more recently. NTTAWWT.

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3 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

Great advice my good man.....might I suggest in the future  it would have had a bit more credence if you were to have spelled "posiable" correctly. 

I am a member of the D.N.A. The National Dyslexics Association. And I don't give a fuck about 'credence' mate. I am here purely for my own entertainment. 

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23 hours ago, axolotl said:

Ten years ago I went through the same wringer.  I was new in town so picked the yard closest to my marina; they'd been in business for fifty years.  Unbeknownst to me the yard had been bought out by a rival yard in town and all employees would lose their jobs in 60 days, so they were less than enthusiastic.  The "contract" was a signed punch list of tasks with estimates.  It turned into a carnival of errors:

  • Replace gate valve with ball valve  on cockpit drain  turned into replace through hull and install ball valve.  Ostensibly the gate valve was stuck but sawsalling it off would have left plenty of thread on the through hull for a new ball valve.  Reason;  the yard boss shrugged  his shoulders, didn't think of that.  5 times the cost of just the ball valve replacement estimate.
  • Bottom paint with  Pettit Trinidad,  dropped by the boat to discover they were applying  cheap "yard paint" so I said start over using Trinidad per the "contract."  Reason:  the painter wasn't told to use Trinidad.  I got billed for 1/2 gallon of yard paint & labor in addition to the Pettit application because "the yard paint is also on your boat so you're charged for it."
  • Install 1/2" u-bolt on bow below stemhead for anchor snubber, with glassed in backing plate.  They installed a 1/4" u-bolt with washers, because "it'll be strong enough".  I insisted they tear it out and install 1/2" u-bolt per punch list because I'd ran the numbers and 1/2"  w/backing plate met anticipated load specs.  Ended up with a 1/2" u-bolt with a tiny backing plate bedded in 5200.  Billed for labor and parts to install the 1/4" u-bolt,  and the 1/2" one, twice the estimate.  Also they didn't trim the 2 inches of excess threads in the anchor locker, which would have caught on the anchor rode,  I got to do that myself later.
  • Paint on new bootstripe.  Excellent job, but  came in at 2 1/2 times the estimate.  Reason; near the end of the job it turned out the tape job was misapplied and the bootstripe was misaligned by 3" between port and starboard  They decided to strip and redo it.  "Hey, labor is labor, and an estimate's only an estimate."  What really pissed me off is they didn't inform me. I probably could have lived with the original job.
  • Pull and straighten or replace shaft.  Well done, except see below.
  • Compound and buff job.  They burnt off all the vinyl  badging.
  • 1 week job estimate turned in to 5 weeks.  Reason;  "all the problems and high absenteeism."  They didn't charge for laydays because it was all yard labor, so I can't complain, so they said.
  • Billed for pricey skeg fairing (speed flaps) done on the boat next to me.  Woops, their mistake, removed it from my bill.

When it was all said and done the bill came in 80% above estimate.  No additional work was done upon discovery of a problem.  I'd been cool as a cucumber during this debacle, but I complained mightily about the bill considering the added costs were their fault, not due to acts of God.  They said "no pay, no splash"  and starting now I would be charged laydays till I paid.  I was already pissed off because I ended up taking a half hour off of work  3 times a week to drive to the yard and try to keep things under control, which wasn't too hard because many days my boat hadn't been touched.  I had a consult with my marine surveyor who said pay 'em and walk away, lesson learned.  Next time I should ask around before hauling.

Paid them and had one more appalling experience.  When I showed up to take the boat it was sitting rather low in the water, turns out the stuffing box had not been tightened (nut only finger tight) and the bilge was full of water and spilling out of the floorboards, the cabin sole was becoming awash.  Unbelievably the bilge alarm cockpit horn wires had been cut which they admitted doing "because there was a loud siren going off in your boat" which they thought was related to an engine alarm.  When I ran up to the yard super yelling my head off I admit they were shocked and became very interested in dewatering my boat, using two AC pumps.  They even cancelled the two laydays they'd charged me for paying late.  Two weeks later they yard was gone, travelifts gone, etc.  Later the whole site was bulldozed and declared a hazardous waste site, which really goofed up the new owner's plan to sell it to a condo developer,  who also ran afoul of the Coastal Commission's ruling that housing was improper zoning for a marine commercially zoned parcel.  Ten years later it's still a dirt lot; karma's a bitch.

If someone screwed a *pipe thread* gate valve onto a *straight thread* thru-hull, odds are fairly good the fitting is hosed up. I would't saw the thing apart and try and re-use it. No way I would want my name on that if it comes apart later and sinks the boat.

 

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26 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

If someone screwed a *pipe thread* gate valve onto a *straight thread* thru-hull, odds are fairly good the fitting is hosed up. I would't saw the thing apart and try and re-use it. No way I would want my name on that if it comes apart later and sinks the boat.

 

 

So long as the threads are cleaned up properly with the correct thread die, where it was sawed off, and new valve properly fitted with adhesive sealant, there should be no problem.  Not sure whose tool box has taps and dies that large, but it can safely be done, so long as there was enough threads left so the new fitting can be got at and easily turned.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

If someone screwed a *pipe thread* gate valve onto a *straight thread* thru-hull, odds are fairly good the fitting is hosed up. I would't saw the thing apart and try and re-use it. No way I would want my name on that if it comes apart later and sinks the boat.

 

Yeah well (cough cough) not officially kosher but I've done it a number of times. The problems with bronze pipe threads is that it's easy (well, not "easy" but I can do it and I'm just a junior caveman) to buckle the pipe by overtightening. You can do that with female pipe thread fittings much less straight thread.

Besides, shit like this is why you have plumber's putty and duck tape.

FB- Doug

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Back to the OP for a moment, when the new guy bought the business, he presumably bought your debt, so your beef is now with him. Get a detailed invoice and start negotiating with him. Make him a reasonable  offer and I am sure he would be happy to get your boat out of his yard to free up space for a paying customor.  

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2 hours ago, LB 15 said:

I am a member of the D.N.A. The National Dyslexics Association. And I don't give a fuck about 'credence' mate. I am here purely for my own entertainment. 

This explains a good deal sir.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

If someone screwed a *pipe thread* gate valve onto a *straight thread* thru-hull, odds are fairly good the fitting is hosed up. I would't saw the thing apart and try and re-use it. No way I would want my name on that if it comes apart later and sinks the boat.

 

Yup, you're absolutely right.  Gate valve threading is a tapered fit,  which is deformed threads metal to metal gas tight without gaskets or dope.  A ball valve is (usually a) straight screw on until it bottoms out, usually with a gasket and pipe dope.  My bitch was that even after sawsalling the gate valve off there was plenty of thru hull thread  left for  a solid ball valve installation.  I think the real reason they pulled the thru hull is that access was a real problem, hard to get a sawsall in there or even a carbide disc cutter, and the gate valve was totally stuck after 30 years of service.

If they'd told me doing the repair was 3x the estimate, I probably would have left the gate valve in place, it still could be opened and closed and was a few inches above the waterline, except in following seas.

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Is the beat up Ensign in the yard still available?

They wanted to give it away last year

you still here, 2sav?

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On 2/5/2018 at 8:42 AM, Steam Flyer said:

Yeah well (cough cough) not officially kosher but I've done it a number of times. The problems with bronze pipe threads is that it's easy (well, not "easy" but I can do it and I'm just a junior caveman) to buckle the pipe by overtightening. You can do that with female pipe thread fittings much less straight thread.

Besides, shit like this is why you have plumber's putty and duck tape.

FB- Doug

Not that it matters but I put all mine on with bolted flange fittings bedded in Blue Maxx and the threaded connections with Loctite pipe thread sealer. No teflon tape or similar crap.

Worst case if the nuts seize onto the bolt threads you can cut the bolt heads off and drive out the corroded bits, not that it'll happen anyway because I used proper thread lubricant on the bolts before putting it all together.

As an old ships engineering type you'll know why I did it like that & not the 'yachty' way.....

FKT

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On 2/6/2018 at 4:51 AM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Not that it matters but I put all mine on with bolted flange fittings bedded in Blue Maxx and the threaded connections with Loctite pipe thread sealer. No teflon tape or similar crap.

Worst case if the nuts seize onto the bolt threads you can cut the bolt heads off and drive out the corroded bits, not that it'll happen anyway because I used proper thread lubricant on the bolts before putting it all together.

As an old ships engineering type you'll know why I did it like that & not the 'yachty' way.....

FKT

Oh yes, I love proper flanges but it's expensive and takes up more space. And teflon thread tape can be perfectly good stuff, if used properly. The problem is that it's always tempting to use too much, or to use it in a hurry and get it wrapped the wrong way or overlapped something it shouldn't etc etc. I've picked shreds of thread tape out of many a delicate place.............

FB- Doug

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3 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Oh yes, I love proper flanges but it's expensive and takes up more space. And teflon thread tape can be perfectly good stuff, if used properly. The problem is that it's always tempting to use too much, or to use it in a hurry and get it wrapped the wrong way or overlapped something it shouldn't etc etc. I've picked shreds of thread tape out of many a delicate place.............

FB- Doug

Loctite 5331 for plastic pipes and Loctite 567 for metal pipes, problem solved. The thing I hate about teflon tape is, you can never be *quite* sure you won't have a small leak under pressure. Or the fittings won't index as they should, which is why I make liberal use of unions for rigid pipework and camlocks for hose tails to fixed pipes that experience tells me *will* need to be disconnected sometime.

I'll send you some updated boat pix soon. Waiting on the non-skid paint for the cabin tops ATM. Everything else I know about is done.

FKT

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