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By the lee

Laser 28?

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Seem to be great boats - WVYC has a fleet of them being dry sailed. They have a good rep but are short on row away factor IMO.

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That particular boat is currently at Royal Van YC.  Owned by a friend and co-worker.

Cool boats, a little bit ahead of their time in terms of design and construction.

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got one sitting in the yard here, the guy is really old and the boat may be coming on the market this spring

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We have a fleet here in MTL. Great boat. Hate the genoa. Cockpit a bit tight for all the crew work.

A bit of a balance problem. You have to go a reef pretty quickly. 

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10 hours ago, By the lee said:

Go!...............

Image result for Laser 28

That's me driving my old boat. Best racer cruiser under 30' (Andrews 28 excepted since I have not sailed one......yet).

Buy one, you won't regret it.

 

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5 hours ago, Kevlar Edge said:

got one sitting in the yard here, the guy is really old and the boat may be coming on the market this spring

"here"

That's pretty vague...

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Yeah where? Closer than Wisc.?

Quote

Buy one, you won't regret it.

Can I move the traveler up to the companionway to make singlehanding easier? How badly will that fuck up crewed racing? Ok forget it just saw a pic of how trvlr is recessed.

Quote

A bit of a balance problem. You have to go a reef pretty quickly. 

Heard they were slightly underballsted. Some guy in the UK did...

millskeelrf.jpg

Peeps do rudder mods too I hear.

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56 minutes ago, By the lee said:

Yeah where? Closer than Wisc.?

Can I move the traveler up to the companionway to make singlehanding easier? How badly will that fuck up crewed racing? Ok forget it just saw a pic of how trvlr is recessed.

Heard they were slightly underballsted. Some guy in the UK did...

millskeelrf.jpg

Peeps do rudder mods too I hear.

Do you know who designed that keel?  Much nicer looking than the bolt on bulb package that I have seen.

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14 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Seem to be great boats - WVYC has a fleet of them being dry sailed. They have a good rep but are short on row away factor IMO.

+1

Great boats, but agree about the aesthetics thing, which is odd because Farr designs usually among the better looking boats to me

Could be due to design criteria supplied by Laser (i.e trying to pack too much room into a 28 footer) which renders ungainly proportions.

However for me, the most unsightly part of the Laser 28 is the shoebox hull/deck connection.  I've always found they look hideous - going back to  a Columbia 26 I sailed on as a pup.

Yeah, I know the false shear is supposed to break up the lines lessening the visual impact of high topsides, but the overall look is still awful in my mind.

Which is kind of odd, because a look I do like is a coloured hull with white deck and cabin (with no toerails preferably) carried down about 6" below the shear line.  Kind of the same but visually much different to my eye.

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What reach around?  From position helmsman is sitting in the pic, he could easily reach the windward primary.  To adjust leeward primary, he just has to go sit to leeward for a minute or two.  He'd need to be down there to see the telltales on the genny anyway, so not sure moving them back buys much.  I get the cut the coamings down bit, but not sure the benefit is worth the effort to cut down and then fix right...plus boat would no longer be OD, not there there is much of that going on.  Would also need to be reported to your PHRF committee, who could decided to ding you a couple 3 sec or so just to add insult to injury...

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13 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

That's me driving my old boat. Best racer cruiser under 30' (Andrews 28 excepted since I have not sailed one......yet).

Buy one, you won't regret it.

 

If you read the design brief for the Andrews 28, it was designed to be a new version of the Laser 28.

Cheers, Greg

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6 minutes ago, gcutter said:

If you read the design brief for the Andrews 28, it was designed to be a new version of the Laser 28.

Cheers, Greg

I did!

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There is a Laser 28 on Humbolt Bay that did the Trasnpac some years ago with a crew of three. 

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12 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

There is a Laser 28 on Humbolt Bay that did the Trasnpac some years ago with a crew of three. 

I'll do you one better.  Back in the mid 80's a legally blind sailor did Transpac in a Laser 28 - solo!   His name was Hank Dekker and in the early 2000's he bought another Laser 28 to sail in Punta Gorda, FL.  He sold that boat to me a few years later and I still own it now.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Crash said:

What reach around?  From position helmsman is sitting in the pic, he could easily reach the windward primary.  To adjust leeward primary, he just has to go sit to leeward for a minute or two.  He'd need to be down there to see the telltales on the genny anyway, so not sure moving them back buys much.  I get the cut the coamings down bit, but not sure the benefit is worth the effort to cut down and then fix right...plus boat would no longer be OD, not there there is much of that going on.  Would also need to be reported to your PHRF committee, who could decided to ding you a couple 3 sec or so just to add insult to injury...

I don't get the idea of the modification. The cockpit is crowded enough with helm, main trimmer and jib trimmer. Moving the winches back would put the jib trimmer on the main trimmer's lap.

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2 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

There is a Laser 28 on Humbolt Bay that did the Trasnpac some years ago with a crew of three. 

2010 Pacific cup.  They were in our division, I was on the J-30.

Screen Shot 2018-01-31 at 12.34.38 PM.png

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15 minutes ago, Crash said:

I think he was talking single-handing...

Yes, I believe so.  The OP was looking at a somewhat similar Hotfoot 27 a few weeks ago and I told him one of the issues I had with the HF was the location of the winches for SH sailing and was one of the reasons I ended up selling my HF.  

However, there are a few differences in the two designs.   the HF has a tub style cockpit with more of a delineated helm station and the traveller is a deck level rather than spanning the cockpit seats.  This makes reaching the winches more difficult when SH the HF.  Below is a good photo of a Laser sailing single handed and it looks much easier than the HF (which has a somewhat better fully crewed layout).

On a further note, not only would moving the winches improve the L28 much for SH sailing, but cutting down the coamings would make the seatbacks uncomfortable at best and unusable at worst.

Laser28-1-1.jpg

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12,

I concur.  Even for single-handing, I'd leave the set up just the way it is.  Good cushions on the lifelines makes sitting outboard comfy, and the coaming actually keeps you from sliding inboard if the boat is heeled.  Plus with a dodger, I'd bet at night, you'd want to spend alot of time, tucked into a corner of the cockpit, behind the dodger, letting otto drive.  Cutting down the coamings would make that less, not more comfortable - and maybe wetter too!

Crash

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There is a fleet getting going on Lake Ontario these days , west end . 3 regatta program with an over all trophy . Racing on both US and Canadian sides .  Fleet meeting is Feb 10th in Grimsby  if anyone is interested in sitting in but you don't need to make it to race  . Big bang for the Buck for US boats visiting Canada .There is a  facebook page where we all keep in touch.

Pic.jpg

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Good boat, faster than a good displacement boat, not as quick off the wind as a planing hull. Boats like the Flying Tiger will pass it easily. But still a good boat. As mentioned the cockpit can be crowded, and the helmsman can have his view blocked. It will do 10 knots with main and jib on a broad reach, and hit 12.2 with the chute up. It loses rudder control as the speed picks up. It needs more rudder area to go faster, and broaches can happen. We averaged 8 knots from Clallam Bay to Vic Harbour. Dropped the chute to go thru Race Passage. The gusts after that would have laid us flat. We lost time broaching too often. It makes a lot of spray over 10. Some boats run a bigger chute and take the penalty. We did 3 Swiftsures on David's boat, and 3 Whidbey Island race week, plus a bunch of races in the Okanogan. The large area aft to starboard is great for storing stuff. There are no opening lockers that let water in to down below. I never fell off the pointy end, so it must be relatively safe. I did not do the pointy end for Swiftsure, just pulled lines on the blunt end. I Invoked senior privilege. The single cylinder putt putt worked fine.

Unkle Krusty

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BTL,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here....

Is that the only dodger design for the Laser 28?

What was wrong with how they were trimming?  Obviously light and shifty winds, but what am I missing?

Crash

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6 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

That's Hank Dekker who was mentioned above competing in the singlehanded Transpac.

Wait. so the blind guy has a boat call Outta Sight??? Classic.

If someone is looking to buy one, I saw a neglected one on a trailer in Summerland BC last fall.

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8 hours ago, Expat Canuck said:

Wait. so the blind guy has a boat call Outta Sight??? Classic.

If someone is looking to buy one, I saw a neglected one on a trailer in Summerland BC last fall.

The one in Summerland is not neglected, it is actually in great shape , it just needs a new inboard. Not sure if it's for sale.

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1 hour ago, MR MANN said:

The one in Summerland is not neglected, it is actually in great shape , it just needs a new inboard. Not sure if it's for sale.

There used to be three boats on the big lake. The doc from Edmonton who put a lot of good stuff on board,  Ozzy Rules that has a few good sails, and the other one in Kelowna, but the boat names escape me. All would be mostly fresh water boats, with a bit of pig puddle use. And I think all of them have the single cylinder Bukh. Chances are I might have met yuse inland sailors, if you were there B4 008.

Unkle Krusty

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2 hours ago, MR MANN said:

The one in Summerland is not neglected, it is actually in great shape , it just needs a new inboard. Not sure if it's for sale.

The Buhk diesel is tough to find and not class legal if you go to something else .  Same for the saildrive .  They are stone axe simple , reliable and great engines . Few weak points , only 15 amp alternator , raw water cooled and some parts no longer available .  The hulls seem to suffer few issues - made of Kevlar and foam core . Grids can come detached and it is wise to re-enforce the chain plate where it bonds to the hull for this reason .  The rest is as simple as it comes . 

 

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59 minutes ago, Unplugged said:

The Buhk diesel is tough to find and not class legal if you go to something else .  Same for the saildrive .  They are stone axe simple , reliable and great engines . Few weak points , only 15 amp alternator , raw water cooled and some parts no longer available .  The hulls seem to suffer few issues - made of Kevlar and foam core . Grids can come detached and it is wise to re-enforce the chain plate where it bonds to the hull for this reason .  The rest is as simple as it comes . 

 

I do remember a boat in Toronto that had replaced his Bukh with a Yanmar. Given the age of the boat and the difficulty finding a replacement engine, I wouldn't mind if an owner replaced a broken Bukh with anything similar. 

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My Bukh's head cracked and no replacements are available.  I was 'this close' to going electric because I don't cruise and 95% of the time I just need to get in and out of the slip.  My idea was to fabricate and adapter plate and bolt the electric motor to the sail drive.  I planned to carry enough battery power so that the electric motor and batteries would equal the weight of the old engine and a half full fuel tank. 

I had looked high and low for a diesel engine that would fit without major modification of the boat.  My recollection was that the Yanmar would require moving the hole through the hull aft because the Yanmar has a horizontal shaft.  I also think the Yanmar would necessitate complete replacement of the fiberglass box molded to the inside of the hull the motor sits on.  I even thought of using a Hatz air cooled engine which is a vertical shaft diesel used for industrial equipment and lawnmowers, but I wasn't sure how I would supply sufficient cooling airflow to the engine.

In the end I found a used Bukh in England and had it shipped over.  I'm repainting it now and hope to have it in the boat by summer.

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4 minutes ago, smokeandoakum said:

My Bukh's head cracked and no replacements are available.  I was 'this close' to going electric because I don't cruise and 95% of the time I just need to get in and out of the slip.  My idea was to fabricate and adapter plate and bolt the electric motor to the sail drive.  I planned to carry enough battery power so that the electric motor and batteries would equal the weight of the old engine and a half full fuel tank. 

I had looked high and low for a diesel engine that would fit without major modification of the boat.  My recollection was that the Yanmar would require moving the hole through the hull aft because the Yanmar has a horizontal shaft.  I also think the Yanmar would necessitate complete replacement of the fiberglass box molded to the inside of the hull the motor sits on.  I even thought of using a Hatz air cooled engine which is a vertical shaft diesel used for industrial equipment and lawnmowers, but I wasn't sure how I would supply sufficient cooling airflow to the engine.

In the end I found a used Bukh in England and had it shipped over.  I'm repainting it now and hope to have it in the boat by summer.

Some places can repair a cracked cylinder head, if it's not bad. A few years ago I had to have some gelcoat repair work in the late fall. Since the guy didn't get the work done before the snow came I asked him to winterize the engine. He either didn't do it or did a lousy job. The head cracked. A machine shop just outside of Toronto  specialized is this type of repair. 

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3 hours ago, Expat Canuck said:

If weight is the issue, have them carry the difference in lead in the bilge near the engine

Seems unlikely that one could find a diesel inboard saildrive, lighter than a Bukh.

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4 hours ago, CAN217 said:

I do remember a boat in Toronto that had replaced his Bukh with a Yanmar. Given the age of the boat and the difficulty finding a replacement engine, I wouldn't mind if an owner replaced a broken Bukh with anything similar. 

What would be similar ?  They have a vertical shaft and a sail drive .   The engine is not unavailable , you can find them used and I hear you can order from Australia . It would be the sail drive that might be impossible .  I think though that if I had to replace I might go electric. 

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4 hours ago, smokeandoakum said:

My Bukh's head cracked and no replacements are available.  I was 'this close' to going electric because I don't cruise and 95% of the time I just need to get in and out of the slip.  My idea was to fabricate and adapter plate and bolt the electric motor to the sail drive.  I planned to carry enough battery power so that the electric motor and batteries would equal the weight of the old engine and a half full fuel tank. 

I had looked high and low for a diesel engine that would fit without major modification of the boat.  My recollection was that the Yanmar would require moving the hole through the hull aft because the Yanmar has a horizontal shaft.  I also think the Yanmar would necessitate complete replacement of the fiberglass box molded to the inside of the hull the motor sits on.  I even thought of using a Hatz air cooled engine which is a vertical shaft diesel used for industrial equipment and lawnmowers, but I wasn't sure how I would supply sufficient cooling airflow to the engine.

In the end I found a used Bukh in England and had it shipped over.  I'm repainting it now and hope to have it in the boat by summer.

Heads are not unavailable - try Cinmar in Kingston , he is closing up but might have just what you are looking for if not you may need to get shipped from australia or UK - note DV1 is the same engine . Here is a whole engine and drive  , shipping is going to hurt though https://boats-from.co.uk/not-specified/bukh-dv8-sme-saildrive-boat-diesel-engine-4517

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4 hours ago, Unplugged said:

Heads are not unavailable - try Cinmar in Kingston , he is closing up but might have just what you are looking for if not you may need to get shipped from australia or UK - note DV1 is the same engine . Here is a whole engine and drive  , shipping is going to hurt though https://boats-from.co.uk/not-specified/bukh-dv8-sme-saildrive-boat-diesel-engine-4517

That ad is a year old and collection only. Fail.

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12 hours ago, Unplugged said:

Heads are not unavailable - try Cinmar in Kingston , he is closing up but might have just what you are looking for if not you may need to get shipped from australia or UK - note DV1 is the same engine . Here is a whole engine and drive  , shipping is going to hurt though https://boats-from.co.uk/not-specified/bukh-dv8-sme-saildrive-boat-diesel-engine-4517

I do assure you heads are not available.  Crinmar closed this past December - I placed one of the last orders for parts.  The company out in Australia that sold refurbished engines isn't selling them anymore.  And the ad you linked to is the engine I purchased.

 

It is possible if you scoured e-bay or similar you'll get lucky, but I tried for months before I finally found the one in the ad you posted.

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8 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

That ad is a year old and collection only. Fail.

I said they were not unavailable , not that they were readily available - bit of a difference . Funny enough the owner of the boat said he got one - the one I mentioned 

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25 minutes ago, smokeandoakum said:

I do assure you heads are not available.  Crinmar closed this past December - I placed one of the last orders for parts.  The company out in Australia that sold refurbished engines isn't selling them anymore.  And the ad you linked to is the engine I purchased.

 

It is possible if you scoured e-bay or similar you'll get lucky, but I tried for months before I finally found the one in the ad you posted.

 Yes they are rare , but they do come up. My good friend bought a spare out east in canada about 3 years ago  .  My post was more of an encouragement to all out there that it is not impossible to get one , just hard . Kinda like rare old car parts can be .  It is a shame Cinmar closed , however I heard he still had used  parts left .  I too placed a final order . 

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22 hours ago, Unkle Crusty said:

There used to be three boats on the big lake. The doc from Edmonton who put a lot of good stuff on board,  Ozzy Rules that has a few good sails, and the other one in Kelowna, but the boat names escape me. All would be mostly fresh water boats, with a bit of pig puddle use. And I think all of them have the single cylinder Bukh. Chances are I might have met yuse inland sailors, if you were there B4 008.

Unkle Krusty

There's actually 4 on the lake 1 in Penticton (Controlled Skid), 1 in Summerland ( Farr Out), and 2 in in Kelowna ( Woo Hoo  Ex Aussie Rules & Supernova) 

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1 hour ago, MR MANN said:

There's actually 4 on the lake 1 in Penticton (Controlled Skid), 1 in Summerland ( Farr Out), and 2 in in Kelowna ( Woo Hoo  Ex Aussie Rules & Supernova) 

I was also thinking one of them might be a boat that did Swiftsure  ( Clallam Bay ) a few times and used a larger chute. They were coast folks and knew the course well. We raced against it with Aussie Rules. Ozzy David now has an S2 7.9 out of Summerland, that is on his lot on Gabriola.

They are a good boat all round boat for the lake.

Unkle Krusty

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2 hours ago, Unkle Crusty said:

I was also thinking one of them might be a boat that did Swiftsure  ( Clallam Bay ) a few times and used a larger chute. They were coast folks and knew the course well. We raced against it with Aussie Rules. Ozzy David now has an S2 7.9 out of Summerland, that is on his lot on Gabriola.

They are a good boat all round boat for the lake.

Unkle Krusty

There is a nice little fleet of them on western lake Ontario Canada  right now  . 6 Racing in a 3 event program plus in their home clubs .  Great boat and while having a reputation as being lightly ballasted they perform just fine when it's windy . Raced in the club championships blowing  a steady 24 gusting to  37 .  A Laser finished first over the line in the first 2 races , 3rd canceled- beating the likes of a a figaro 30 over the line  .  They do need weight on the rail though to go to weather  and you have to shift gears sooner than in many other boats , however this means light air performance is good too . 

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Rounding the top mark, nope offset -  in 2016 I believe . Nice close racing and a good group of guys  back at the dock . 

one.jpg

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5 hours ago, K9u20 said:

Been up for sale for quite a while . I hear it is cheap but needs lots of loving . It is a donated boat to the sailing center and I understand it is all there but have not seen it myself . We tried to do the math to buy it as a group and fix it to add to the fleet here but it just did not work . 

 

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8 hours ago, K9u20 said:

The pics made me realize I got the sides mixed up in an earlier post. The dunny is to starboard, and the big empty space to port. Maybe there is empty space to starboard.

Unkle Krusty

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I saw that boat and doing the work myself, still didn't add up.

Friend has interest in another boat they have for sale. They are hard to reach and not very interested in selling anything, as the don't return his calls.

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4 hours ago, Unkle Crusty said:

The pics made me realize I got the sides mixed up in an earlier post. The dunny is to starboard, and the big empty space to port. Maybe there is empty space to starboard.

Unkle Krusty

The big empty space is a walk in sail locker . Fantastic feature where you can have the complete set of sails on board in sausage bags and none in the way or littering  the main cabin . Used to race a C&C35 and the only way to use the cabin when all the sails were on her was to put them on deck . Most have also put in a row of hooks on the side and hang all the lines / sheets on them - nice and neat .  Behind the cooler is an open hanging spot for foul weather gear . Tons of cooler space too , and I changed my cooler to a fridge /freezer one - fits perfect - beer is already cold when I get there .  Pretty good boat for cruising  considering it  is  a great a racing  boat. 

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4 hours ago, LarryE said:

I saw that boat and doing the work myself, still didn't add up.

Friend has interest in another boat they have for sale. They are hard to reach and not very interested in selling anything, as the don't return his calls.

The trouble is you can get a good one sitting on a trailer with decent sails , class legal and an OK interior for around 20-25 k .  My math , 5k for boat , 1 k for cushions, 3k for trailer , 1 k to fix interior , 2k for electronics , 10k for sails, anti skid, redo bottom ...battery - the list is long  . That's 22+-k and no fuel to tow it home or $ for your time . But you would end up with a mint boat - all new sails , new cushions , restored interior and new instruments radios etc  . Add that the rigging probably needs replacement as it is a salt water boat .  Tempting though . 

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16 minutes ago, Unplugged said:

The trouble is you can get a good one sitting on a trailer with decent sails , class legal and an OK interior for around 20-25 k .  My math , 5k for boat , 1 k for cushions, 3k for trailer , 1 k to fix interior , 2k for electronics , 10k for sails, anti skid, redo bottom ...battery - the list is long  . That's 22+-k and no fuel to tow it home or $ for your time . But you would end up with a mint boat - all new sails , new cushions , restored interior and new instruments radios etc  . Add that the rigging probably needs replacement as it is a salt water boat .  Tempting though . 

thanks for that breakdown. I think your numbers are correct but you left out the engine.

A local boat. L28, ended up spending 5K + rebuilding the engine and sail drive. Remember it's a salt water boat, if everything is kept up, they still go bad quickly.

Just keep my 7.9 and go sailing. Problem the 7.9 is in A1 shape. As a retired engineer and fabricator, getting bored.

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12 minutes ago, LarryE said:

thanks for that breakdown. I think your numbers are correct but you left out the engine.

A local boat. L28, ended up spending 5K + rebuilding the engine and sail drive. Remember it's a salt water boat, if everything is kept up, they still go bad quickly.

Just keep my 7.9 and go sailing. Problem the 7.9 is in A1 shape. As a retired engineer and fabricator, getting bored.

Boat has been repowered with a yanmar at some point  - thats why not class legal . Engine is reported to run well but have not heard it myself .  Supposed to be sails with it and cushions but I doubt they are any good .  Also overlooked the missing hanging lockers - add $800 bucks .... won't be any required safety gear either .  Be a fine PHRF boat for someone local . 

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1 hour ago, Hitchhiker said:

How many O/D fleets are there in North America for the Laser 28?

As far as I know 1 fleet  in Montreal , and there is a fleet on the west end of Lake ontario - 3 regatta program with an overall trophy . 

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On 2/1/2018 at 1:07 PM, Unplugged said:

The Buhk diesel is tough to find and not class legal if you go to something else .  Same for the saildrive .  They are stone axe simple , reliable and great engines . Few weak points , only 15 amp alternator , raw water cooled and some parts no longer available .  The hulls seem to suffer few issues - made of Kevlar and foam core . Grids can come detached and it is wise to re-enforce the chain plate where it bonds to the hull for this reason .  The rest is as simple as it comes . 

 

I think it would be a wise move with a 30year old boat to have a provision about inboard replacement so the boat can remain class legal.  

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14 minutes ago, USA 236 said:

I think it would be a wise move with a 30year old boat to have a provision about inboard replacement so the boat can remain class legal.  

Could be a good idea . Lots of saildrives out there that one could put in but hard to find an equal to what is in it . There are some guys that went to an outboard ( yuk) . For me I think this would be neat -http://www.nauticexpo.com/boat-manufacturer/electric-saildrive-motor-35993.html.   

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Why penalize a guy and lose a boat on the line because an engine dies or an owner gets fed up sourcing parts for the buhk?  Seems like a no brained.

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19 minutes ago, USA 236 said:

Why penalize a guy and lose a boat on the line because an engine dies or an owner gets fed up sourcing parts for the buhk?  Seems like a no brained.

True , almost any engine swap is going to be heavier and at least the same drag short of an outboard .  

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5 hours ago, Unplugged said:

Could be a good idea . Lots of saildrives out there that one could put in but hard to find an equal to what is in it . There are some guys that went to an outboard ( yuk) . For me I think this would be neat -http://www.nauticexpo.com/boat-manufacturer/electric-saildrive-motor-35993.html.   

inboard electric motor / saildrive / permanent magnet / synchronouselectric saildrive motor / permanent magnet / synchronous

Which has less drag?

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7 hours ago, By the lee said:

inboard electric motor / saildrive / permanent magnet / synchronouselectric saildrive motor / permanent magnet / synchronous

Which has less drag?

No Idea, but the white one looks to be a weed collector while having less wetted surface ...... . Certainly would be a pain figuring it out when Lasers fleets often finish overlapped - 3 lasers and a committee boat in this finish - you can't see the other one because he is behind me and got me by about 2 feet. That same guy had the boot come loose on his sail drive in his first year and he was 1/4 knot lower than us . In this case , not making excuses I had an issue with a bad repair on the keel and while I was well out in front from better luck/tactics (depends on who you ask)  I just could not hold him off boat for boat . Further up the thread you will see a shot of 5 lasers all hitting the offset at the same time .

So while I agree totally on a boat at this age it is time to start giving a break for mods that are beyond your control like re-powering it is beyond me how one would keep the wonderful benefit of one design where the boats are so equal and  where  unfair advantages/ disadvantages are kept to a minimum.  I suppose as long as it was a sail drive in the same location and no smaller dimensionally it would be OK , but things get odd if you change to a shaft or outboard . Adding = weight down below will not be = if the drag is different .  In fact adding weight down low could make you faster as the boats are lightly ballasted and benefit strongly from meat on the rail. 

finish2.jpg

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Way over thinking this....  rule would be something like propulsion:  diesel inboard with saildrive. Horsepower must be equal to or greater than____hp or a minimum weight of______ (whatever the original buhk was in terms of power and weight) although the boats may all appear similar, I assure you they are not all created equal.

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2 hours ago, USA 236 said:

Way over thinking this....  rule would be something like propulsion:  diesel inboard with saildrive. Horsepower must be equal to or greater than____hp or a minimum weight of______ (whatever the original buhk was in terms of power and weight) although the boats may all appear similar, I assure you they are not all created equal.

The boats are pretty well matched out of the factory  , and the construction quality was quite good however some are all kevlar and some glass ,most  have closed mold decks, the first few do not  . Performance seems to be near as the same across them . Naturally owner neglect is the biggest issue leading to varrience between boats apart from repowering . The salt can be hard on them . Masts are also unavailable - it was custom .  The thing with the engine that would make the most difference is drag . 

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17 minutes ago, Unplugged said:

The boats are pretty well matched out of the factory  , and the construction quality was quite good however some are all kevlar and some glass ,most  have closed mold decks, the first few do not  . Performance seems to be near as the same across them . Naturally owner neglect is the biggest issue leading to varrience between boats apart from repowering . The salt can be hard on them . Masts are also unavailable - it was custom .  The thing with the engine that would make the most difference is drag . 

Granted it was about 12 years ago, but Ballenger had no problem making us a mast. He’s the original builder. 

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On 2/2/2018 at 3:07 PM, Hitchhiker said:

Post up laser 28 pics!

This was winning the PHRF Champs 2010.  All of the boats behind, bar one, owed us time!

IMG_0616.jpg

Here’s one from when we decided to take the Laser for the 100th Chicago Mac. 

967C5EE0-8689-4A21-A427-A33E7941ABCC.jpeg

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I would go for a bigger rudder immediately, before shopping around for a stiffer rig.

But the boats are pretty great already.

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

Granted it was about 12 years ago, but Ballenger had no problem making us a mast. He’s the original builder. 

I have not tried to get one , but that is what is reported on the Laser 28 site . They are pretty good on that stuff . 

 

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29 minutes ago, Schnick said:

I would go for a bigger rudder immediately, before shopping around for a stiffer rig.

But the boats are pretty great already.

There are two different rudders on them , purported to have the same surface area so no hit and both class legal  . I have two slightly different versions sitting in my driveway right now . I find with my boat when I wipe out I deserved it, remember lightly ballasted boat and she will be over pretty far before the rudder lets go . So you do get a warning , you can get  laid down by a sudden gust  or regaining wind as you pass a bigger and supposed to be faster boat (tip dig as you come out from their shadow ) .  When on the edge crew movement can screw you too-  It's fun though power reaching with the chute up the whole crew in the back corner of the boat steady 11's -12's all day long .  Not sure what she will hit dead -ish down wind surfing down waves , so far never hit the limit . 

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Memorable Laser 28 race wipeouts:  

2002 Coastal cup, San Francisco to Catalina. Laser 28 "Takeoff". Easy start on Thursday into the kite shortly after we left the bay.  Wind quickly built into the mid 20's with gusts into the high 20's may be even low 30's.  Pretty big waves, big enough that when you were down in the troughs it got pretty quiet. Two up two down, easily reeling off constant 15's to 18's, but every hour or so the wrong combo of wave and gust would come and over we went.  Off watch hustle's up to hike the boat flat and off we'd go again. No sleep at all, the motion below decks was so violent and you just knew there was going to be an imminent crash anyway.  Finally around 2 am after maybe the 14th wipe out, we all look at each other and go, maybe we should take the kite down.   Jib on a stick for a couple of hours then back into the kite.  Friday was some of the best surfing I have ever experienced. Going past Santa Cruz Island on these beautiful swells, finger tip control the whole way. Finished off Long Point, Cat island on Saturday morning.  The Express 37 who was scratch in our division owed us 4 hours, we finished 4 mins behind them.  1st in class and 3rd overall.  Epic.

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One Swiftsure to Clallam Bay and back, 40 miles each way, lowest breeze 18, highest 32, return run steady at around 25. Very confused wave patterns and close together. Estimated wipe outs, more than 20. We were maintaining 10 fairly easily, the stern would pick up and get kicked about. Then we would accelerate until we hit the wave in front. 10  11  12 was common, with 12.2 the fastest. To go faster, which we are sure we could, we needed a bit bigger and more even waves, and more distance between them, and a rudder that provided more control. 40 miles in 5 hours, nearly all in darkness. The last 5 miles no chute. Chatting with some of the lighter weight boats. They were getting lift off sooner and hitting 14, and then getting slowed. Doing around 10 with main and jib, we got passed by a TP52, doing about 18 it appeared to us. Makes you feel slow.

Unkle Krusty

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6 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Memorable Laser 28 race wipeouts:  

2002 Coastal cup, San Francisco to Catalina. Laser 28 "Takeoff". Easy start on Thursday into the kite shortly after we left the bay.  Wind quickly built into the mid 20's with gusts into the high 20's may be even low 30's.  Pretty big waves, big enough that when you were down in the troughs it got pretty quiet. Two up two down, easily reeling off constant 15's to 18's, but every hour or so the wrong combo of wave and gust would come and over we went.  Off watch hustle's up to hike the boat flat and off we'd go again. No sleep at all, the motion below decks was so violent and you just knew there was going to be an imminent crash anyway.  Finally around 2 am after maybe the 14th wipe out, we all look at each other and go, maybe we should take the kite down.   Jib on a stick for a couple of hours then back into the kite.  Friday was some of the best surfing I have ever experienced. Going past Santa Cruz Island on these beautiful swells, finger tip control the whole way. Finished off Long Point, Cat island on Saturday morning.  The Express 37 who was scratch in our division owed us 4 hours, we finished 4 mins behind them.  1st in class and 3rd overall.  Epic.

Here is the thing  about your wipeouts -  not many 28 foot cruising boats doing 18 knots in waves that big won't wipe out occasionally .  Particularly anything from the early 1980's  era . Heck , not a lot of 37 foot boats that would not be wiping out , I suppose  you can find a  sport boat that would do 18 knots  without wipeouts  but the list is short . Laser has a bit of a rep for wipeouts , but it is an easy boat to handle , you put the kite up in anything where others won't even dare and carry double digits for hours on end  . When it does crash the cockpit comes up dry and at 4000lb she accelerates again in a flash . It is the gusts  that usually does you in where a more heavily ballasted  boat might give  you more wiggle room , cept you would not still have the kite up on it or be doing 18 knots . 

Not perfect , and there might be better out there but I have no  idea what can match it for the same bucks .   

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To continue what Unplugged said. Two nice things about the broaches. They were all what I call polite broaches, as in boom in the water and rounding up to the wind on the pole side. Not one backwards wipeout. And, no solid water in the boat.  The only dangerous action was one crew member that translated ease the pole, to let the pole go and smash the forestay. The owner and I did decide we needed more bite from the rudder, but he sold the boat, and moved to this Island near me.

Unkle Krusty

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11 hours ago, Unkle Crusty said:

To continue what Unplugged said. Two nice things about the broaches. They were all what I call polite broaches, as in boom in the water and rounding up to the wind on the pole side. Not one backwards wipeout. And, no solid water in the boat.  The only dangerous action was one crew member that translated ease the pole, to let the pole go and smash the forestay. The owner and I did decide we needed more bite from the rudder, but he sold the boat, and moved to this Island near me.

Unkle Krusty

Do you know which rudder you had? I find that the rudder is not small so much as the rig is powerful . The rudder is not tiny  but both the keel and the rudder are minimal and you can stall the flow on both. As for upsizing the rudder , well at  18 knots you do need a safety valve of some sort , it is a 28 foot  80's racer /cruiser displacement hull after all  .  

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A few words on balance and control.  My dad had a Laser 28 and spinouts were common.  Laser had produced a deeper rudder, which had more bite when the boat was heeled.  Dad was able to find one and that helped.  The rig had a lot of rake, we reduced that to more modest proportions and that helped too.  Those two things made the most difference.  Finally, he got tired of how tender the boat was without five guys on the rail (it would slow down in a gust), so he had the Farr office design him a 400 lb bulb.  Once he put that on, the boat was very well mannered.  We only spun out twice after that, once in a gale with just the double-reefed main up, and another time in maybe 25 kts with single reefed main and chute.  The broach with the chute was as stated above, gentle.  The bulb really helped get the boat back up again.  I don't think we went past 60 degrees.  The boat is sold now and dad is gone.  The new owner reports that he lengthened the forestay to increase rake on the recommendation of Bill Layton, who is a big promoter of the class and was at one time involved in the production IIRC.  The new owner didn't mention any spinout issues, so I expect the greater righting moment afforded by the bulb is sufficient. 

Our best was 14.2 kts with 2 up shortly after the aforementioned broach.  A friend in So. Africa with the same bulb added, reported 17 kts, but it blows like stink there much of time.

Zapatero1.jpg

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As for the funky raised deck, I generally find that atrocious, but somehow the Lase 28 still looks decent with it.  It would have looked better with about 2" higher topsides and 1.5" higher cabin trunk for the same headroom.  There are many decent looking boats with higher topsides these days.

As for the bulb or a deeper keel, both my dad's boat and our South African friend's boat eventually needed extensive work on the structural grid.  It was designed to be sufficiently strong according to the Farr office, but I guess something was lost in production.

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Quote

As for the bulb or a deeper keel, both my dad's boat and our South African friend's boat eventually needed extensive work on the structural grid

Quote

he had the Farr office design him a 400 lb bulb. 

Was this done in conjunction with grid work as above?

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On 2/7/2018 at 8:01 PM, By the lee said:

Was this done in conjunction with grid work as above?

No.  Farr said it would be ok, but after a while the grid started failing.

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On 2/7/2018 at 8:59 PM, Shu said:

As for the funky raised deck, I generally find that atrocious, but somehow the Lase 28 still looks decent with it.  It would have looked better with about 2" higher topsides and 1.5" higher cabin trunk for the same headroom.  There are many decent looking boats with higher topsides these days.

As for the bulb or a deeper keel, both my dad's boat and our South African friend's boat eventually needed extensive work on the structural grid.  It was designed to be sufficiently strong according to the Farr office, but I guess something was lost in production.

I have thought that if I ever short hand cruise my laser I would go with the bulb = to 2 guys on the rail . Do you have the drawings ?  As for the grid , I believe that it has more to do with 1980's glues than the grid not being strong enough . They glued the grid in and now 30 years later of hard sailing and being put away wet the glue is failing .  The chain plates are a particular concern - so you tab em in  - takes a few hours and then stronger than new .  Will next year tab my whole grid in- take about  a weekend  and for the heck of it the hull to deck joint while at it . It's all so easy to get at after all , except for behind the breakers - rest is easy . 

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3 hours ago, Unplugged said:

I have thought that if I ever short hand cruise my laser I would go with the bulb = to 2 guys on the rail . 

So, wouldn't that have to be a couple of really really big dudes on the rail to match the leverage of 400# on the end of the keel?

 

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3 hours ago, Unplugged said:

I have thought that if I ever short hand cruise my laser I would go with the bulb = to 2 guys on the rail . Do you have the drawings ?  As for the grid , I believe that it has more to do with 1980's glues than the grid not being strong enough . They glued the grid in and now 30 years later of hard sailing and being put away wet the glue is failing .  The chain plates are a particular concern - so you tab em in  - takes a few hours and then stronger than new .  Will next year tab my whole grid in- take about  a weekend  and for the heck of it the hull to deck joint while at it . It's all so easy to get at after all , except for behind the breakers - rest is easy . 

Umm. Really? A weekend to tab the whole grid in?  You have to empty the entire boat. Grind back all of the areas to be tabbed. Clean up all of the FRP dust.  Then apply new lams of FRP and resin. Maybe paint to finish if you want it to look decent. Clean out boat again. Then put interior back in. If you can do that in say 24 to 36 hours, I have a metric crap load of work for you. 

When I re-powered my Laser 28, I was in it for well over 20 hours and that did not include the FRP work for the new engine bed.

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Perhaps he means only the lamination part, not the prep ahead of time, nor the finish work afterwards???

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3 hours ago, By the lee said:

So, wouldn't that have to be a couple of really really big dudes on the rail to match the leverage of 400# on the end of the keel?

 

Up to maybe 30 degrees of heel, 400 lbs of rail meat  generates more additional RM than a 400 lb bulb.

The additional RM generated by rail meat is a function of cos HA while for a bulb it is a function of sin HA

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