Spoonie

Bouy room (again) mixed fleet.

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OK so I'm back again with another bouy room question. 

Three boats in a mixed fleet come to a mark A, B, C.  A is overlapped and inside B.  C is overlapped and inside B. C is clear astern of A but inside to the mark.  A is 40' and a little slower than the two 30'ers,  

A reaches the zone and calls no room on C.  C then manoeuvres to give A room and in doing so loses the overlap on B.  Due to the overlap,  extra length of A, and extra speed of the outside B , B then reaches its three boat lengths and calls no room on C as well. 

Because of the extra length of A and the overlap with B, does the overlap between B and C at the point A reaches the zone entitle C to mark-room on B?  If so,  in giving A mark-room and losing an overlap outside B and C's 3 length circle, is that entitlement lost or because the zone was established by the first boat to reach the zone, the longer boat, mark room between C and B is still entitled? 

I'm sure this is covered somewhere but search on this site sucks 

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You treat each pair of boats as individual pairs. Do that and it gets easier. 

The relationship between A and B has no bearing on B and C.

Of course in practice no-one would be able to judge overlaps made and broken in such a tiny space and short time as you're describing, so it would be back to last point of certainty.

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Well, relatively slow moving yachts over 120' of ground with varying perceptions on distance. It's not hard but yeah. 

In this case we (C) had to slow down and make a fairly big change of course from inside to outside to make sure we cleared A's stern and give her room. So the point the overlap was broken was pretty definite.  Pretty much as soon as the bigger yacht hit the zone. 

Your point makes sense though.  I've spent years racing at the pointy end of OD fleets.  The mixed fleet mixed speed racing does my head from time to time.  Not that I am probably any better. 

 

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1 hour ago, Spoonie said:

OK so I'm back again with another bouy room question. 

Three boats in a mixed fleet come to a mark A, B, C.  A is overlapped and inside B

If B is still overlapped outside A when the first of them reaches the zone then B will be required to give A mark-room (rule 18.2( b )).

C is overlapped and inside B. C is clear astern of A but inside to the mark.  A is 40' and a little slower than the two 30'ers,  

A reaches the zone and calls no room on C.

Anything A 'calls' is irrelevant to the entitlement of mark-room (except insofar as hails may be evidence of reasonable doubt under rule 18.2( e )).

A is clear ahead of C when A reaches the zone, C is required to give A mark-room and to continue to do so regardless of changes in overlap thereafter (rule 18.2( b )).

C then manoeuvres to give A room and in doing so loses the overlap on B.  Due to the overlap,  extra length of A, and extra speed of the outside B , B then reaches its three boat lengths and calls no room on C as well.

Anything B 'calls' is irrelevant to the entitlement of mark-room (except insofar as hails may be evidence of reasonable doubt under rule 18.2( e )).

Presumably, B is clear ahead of C when B reaches the zone:  if so, C is required to give B mark-room and to continue to do so regardless of changes in overlap thereafter (rule 18.2( b )).

Because of the extra length of A and the overlap with B, does the overlap between B and C at the point A reaches the zone entitle C to mark-room on B?

No.

The 'chain of overlap' notion only applies between two boats when a boat between them overlaps both (Definition:  Clear Ahead, Clear Astern, Overlap).

If C had remained overlapped inside B when the first of them reached the zone, then C would have been entitled to mark-room (rule 18.2( b )), but you say that C became clear astern of B before B reached the zone:  B reaches the zone clear ahead of C, C shall give B mark-room..

If so,  in giving A mark-room and losing an overlap outside B and C's 3 length circle, is that entitlement lost or because the zone was established by the first boat to reach the zone, the longer boat, mark room between C and B is still entitled?

No, As JimC said, take the boats pairwise

I'm sure this is covered somewhere but search on this site sucks 

 

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1 hour ago, Brass said:

The 'chain of overlap' notion only applies between two boats when a boat between them overlaps both (Definition:  Clear Ahead, Clear Astern, Overlap).

If C had remained overlapped inside B when the first of them reached the zone, then C would have been entitled to mark-room (rule 18.2( b )), but you say that C became clear astern of B before B reached the zone:  B reaches the zone clear ahead of C, C shall give B mark-room..

So if you put B between A and C (so A is leading on the outside, B in the middle, C on the inside and trailing, then all three boats would be overlapped even if C's bow was behind A's transom. If this alignment pertained when A reached the zone, B would thereafter owe mark room to C (even though B had not yet reached the zone) and A would owe mark room to both B and C.

Is that correct?

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1 hour ago, TJSoCal said:

So if you put B between A and C (so A is leading on the outside, B in the middle, C on the inside and trailing, then all three boats would be overlapped even if C's bow was behind A's transom. If this alignment pertained when A reached the zone, B would thereafter owe mark room to C (even though B had not yet reached the zone) and A would owe mark room to both B and C.

Is that correct?

 

1 hour ago, Brass said:

Yes 

So the chain of overlaps thing I was aware of, and I think a lot of people don't realise it, that is that their obligations might actually start 4,5,6 boat lengths out depending on the lengths and overlaps in play.  At the heat of the moment, I just uncertain about whether it applied in the above case.  After I read the definition re "between", I was pretty sure it didn't but wanted to make sure.

And just to be sure,  the zone for A&C  and A&B is at A's length, and the Zone for B&C in the above example is at B's length?  

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9 minutes ago, Spoonie said:

 

So the chain of overlaps thing I was aware of, and I think a lot of people don't realise it, that is that their obligations might actually start 4,5,6 boat lengths out depending on the lengths and overlaps in play.  At the heat of the moment, I just uncertain about whether it applied in the above case.  After I read the definition re "between", I was pretty sure it didn't but wanted to make sure.

And just to be sure,  the zone for A&C  and A&B is at A's length, and the Zone for B&C in the above example is at B's length?  

Yes. 

Quote

Zone. The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it.

I'll note that in your original situation C didn't need to do what they did. C could have kept sailing right at A's transom, maintaining her overlap with B. Since C is clear astern she must keep clear of A, so A is an obstruction for C. Since C remained overlapped inside B, as the inside boat approaching an obstruction she has the right to pass it on either side, and so B must give C room to go around A (this becomes, if necessary, in addition to the mark-room C gets as inside boat).

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Maybe,  Except C wasn't pointing at A's transom, she was trying ride a puff deep down the inside.  A had rolled through on an earlier breeze then parked up when the breeze dropped.  B & C had gone to split either side.  

More or less square run into the mark and coming at it from slightly different angles.  Had too much speed and a little too deep on the inside to keep poking down that side without it ending in tears later on.  The idea was to do a little s-bend, to wash a bit off and slot in between A&B (there was about 1/2 - 3/4 boat length gap there.)  thinking the hotter angle would carry me through but it didn't.  I washed too much off, too much ground covered, or B got a puff,  whatever, the overlap was lost.  

The mistake was probably back a bit in the set up if anything.  Committing to a boom or bust line deeper down the inside without much of a bailout plan.  So by the time A reached the zone, I would think the option you had suggested had gone.  

 

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6 hours ago, cremedelameme said:
6 hours ago, Spoonie said:

 

So the chain of overlaps thing I was aware of, and I think a lot of people don't realise it, that is that their obligations might actually start 4,5,6 boat lengths out depending on the lengths and overlaps in play.  At the heat of the moment, I just uncertain about whether it applied in the above case.  After I read the definition re "between", I was pretty sure it didn't but wanted to make sure.

And just to be sure,  the zone for A&C  and A&B is at A's length, and the Zone for B&C in the above example is at B's length?  

Yes. 

Quote

Zone. The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it.

I'll note that in your original situation C didn't need to do what they did. C could have kept sailing right at A's transom,

Except that, as you say, C must keep clear of A:  she has to do something:  she can't go to windward, inside A, because if she does that she will fail to give A the mark-room to which A is entitled.  So, given she's travelling faster than A, she has to avoid A by going to leeward of A.

maintaining her overlap with B. Since C is clear astern she must keep clear of A,

Yes

so A is an obstruction for C

Yes

Since C remained overlapped inside B, as the inside boat approaching an obstruction she has the right to pass it on either side,

No. rule 19.2( a ) gives the right of way boat the right to choose which side to pass the obstruction on.  Between B and C, C is the windward, give-way boat:  it's B that has the right to choose.

and so B must give C room to go around A

If B chooses to go to leeward of A, which she did, way back when B became overlapped on A, she must give C room to pass between B and A while C =is overlapped inside B  and while rule 19 applies to B and C.

Rule 19 applies to B and C with respect to A, as long as A is a right of way boat to both, that is, as long as both boats are clear astern of A.

The instant .B becomes overlapped to leeward of A, B gains right of way (rule 11), A ceases to have right of way over B, and rule 19, as between B and C ceases to apply.

(this becomes, if necessary, in addition to the mark-room C gets as inside boat).

OP said that, as a result of manoeuvering to keep clear of A, which she was required to do, C lost her overlap, that is, became clear astern of B, and, AIUI, that this was before B reached the zone.  C, clear astern of B when B reached the zone is required to give B mark-room.

IF, on the other hand, C had managed to get around A while still remaining overlapped on B, then C would have been overlapped inside B when the first of them reached the zone and B would have been required to give C mark-room..

 

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Actually, we were all on starboard heading to a port rounding.  B is technically to windward.  At least until she Gybes...   which brings a host of other questions similar to the "closing the door" discussion we had earlier.  

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40 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

Ime am starteng to secant guesse my undestaneng of RRS.

IMHO, the appeals cases are a great read.  

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21 minutes ago, Spoonie said:

Actually, we were all on starboard heading to a port rounding.  B is technically to windward.  At least until she Gybes...   which brings a host of other questions similar to the "closing the door" discussion we had earlier.  

Would have been handy if you had sad that in the OP.

Bit of a rewrite is in order

44 minutes ago, Brass said:

I'll note that in your original situation C didn't need to do what they did. C could have kept sailing right at A's transom,

Except that, as you say, C must keep clear of A:  she has to do something:  she can't go to windward,leeward inside A, because if she does that she will fail to give A the mark-room to which A is entitled.  So, given she's travelling faster than A, she has to avoid A by going to leewardwindward of A.

maintaining her overlap with B. Since C is clear astern she must keep clear of A,

Yes

so A is an obstruction for C

Yes

Since C remained overlapped inside B, as the inside boat approaching an obstruction she has the right to pass it on either side,

No. rule 19.2( a ) gives the right of way boat the right to choose which side to pass the obstruction on.  Between B and C, C is the windward, give-wayleeward right of way  boat:  it's Band, as you say, C has the right to choose.

and so B must give C room to go around A

But if B is overlapped to windward of C, B must keep clear of C while so overlapped anyway.

If B chooses to go to leeward of A, which she did, way back when B became overlapped on A, she must give C room to pass between B and A while C =is overlapped inside B  and while rule 19 applies to B and C.

Rule 19 applies to B and C with respect to A, as long as A is a right of way boat to both, that is, as long as both boats are clear astern of A.

The instant .B becomes overlapped to leeward of A, B gains right of way (rule 11), A ceases to have right of way over B, and rule 19, as between B and C ceases to apply.

(this becomes, if necessary, in addition to the mark-room C gets as inside boat).

OP said that, as a result of manoeuvering to keep clear of A, which she was required to do, C lost her overlap, that is, became clear astern of B, and, AIUI, that this was before B reached the zone.  C, clear astern of B when B reached the zone is required to give B mark-room.

IF, on the other hand, C had managed to get around A while still remaining overlapped on B, then C would have been overlapped inside B when the first of them reached the zone and B would have been required to give C mark-room..

 

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8 hours ago, Brass said:

Would have been handy if you had sad that in the OP.

Bit of a rewrite is in order

Sorry, at the time I didn't think it wasn't relevant to the question.  Though it was kind of implied in a later post when I talked about sailing deep down the inside. 

I will take this opportunity to ask my question though, because it's the "Gybe mark conga line"  that irks me.   Boats clear ahead come into the mark (on stbd), spread out, gybe, form a neat little conga line nose to tail into the mark (on prt).  any boat coming in clear astern has little or no where to go other than around the outside of the conga line.

Now the rules cand cases are crystal clear when it comes to overlapped boats.  The mark-room boat can't sail beyond the course she needs to sail the course (and keep clear, and provide mark-room).  It's less clear about a boat clear astern, but with right of way, except one (US Case 89), which talks about a boat clear astern boat and room to tack, but importantly that "When B became overlapped with M, M had left the mark on its required side"

So I'm thinking, In a gybe mark scenario, if you are clear head, sail past the mark for whatever reason (tactics, boat handling, traffic), then gybe on to port:

1) your proper course may be, but in a downwind gybe mark scenario nominally isn't likely to sail to the mark, but to the next one

2) The boat clear astern is obligated to provide mark-room to allow a Clear ahead boat room to sail on the required side of the mark, to gybe, then to sail her proper course, whether that's close to the gybe mark if that's her proper course, or to the next mark, but it must be her proper course

3) the boat clear astern, while not entitled to mark room, is entitled to right of way if appropriate, within her obligations to mark-room as per above.

That is within the bounds of mark-room, a boat clear ahead at a gybe mark, can not sail above her proper course after she has gybed , unless she has right of way to do so.  If after both boats have gybed,  the clear-ahead boat is now clear astern, she must still comply with rule 17, however does not have to grant the fromerly clear astern boat mark-room

???

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51 minutes ago, Spoonie said:

Sorry, at the time I didn't think it wasn't relevant to the question.  Though it was kind of implied in a later post when I talked about sailing deep down the inside. 

I will take this opportunity to ask my question though, because it's the "Gybe mark conga line"  that irks me.   Boats clear ahead come into the mark (on stbd), spread out, gybe, form a neat little conga line nose to tail into the mark (on prt).  any boat coming in clear astern has little or no where to go other than around the outside of the conga line.

How does the scenario you describe below relate to the 'conga-line'?

How about you diagram you scenarios

Boat Scenario  http://boats.sourceforge.net/pages/Download

Protestdraw  http://pathealy.com/cpctools/protestdraw/default.html

Now the rules and cases are crystal clear when it comes to overlapped boats.  The mark-room boat can't sail beyond the course she needs to sail the course (and keep clear, and provide mark-room)

Not exactly.  You seem to be mixmastering rule 18.4 and the definition of mark-room, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to mark.

It's less clear about a boat clear astern, but with right of way,

Won't a boat coming in to a gybe mark clear astern be on the same tack as the boat ahead, and required to keep clear (rule 12)?  How can a boat clear astern be the right of way boat?

except one (US Case 89), which talks about a boat clear astern boat and room to tack, but importantly that "When B became overlapped with M, M had left the mark on its required side"

An Appeal about boats tacking at a windward mark, with the interaction of rules 18.1( b ), rule 13 and rule 18.2( d ) isn't very helpful at a wing mark with boats sailing downwind and gybing.

So I'm thinking, In a gybe mark scenario, if you are clear head, sail past the mark for whatever reason (tactics, boat handling, traffic), then gybe on to port:   Still in the zone or have you sailed out the other side?

Assuming the boat initially clear ahead (A) gybes while still in the zone

1) your proper course may be, but in a downwind gybe mark scenario nominally isn't likely to sail to the mark, but to the next one

Agree, so A's mark-room entitlement does not include room to sail to the mark, but includes room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course (Definitions:  Mark-room ( b )), and during her bear away and gybe, A will have become overlapped outside the boat that was clear astern ( B ), and B is thus required to give A room to sail her proper course (rule 18.2( c )(2))

2) The boat clear astern is obligated to provide mark-room to allow a Clear ahead boat room to sail on the required side of the mark, to gybe, then to sail her proper course, whether that's close to the gybe mark if that's her proper course, or to the next mark Agree, typed the above before I read this., but it must be her proper course Doesn't mean that A is required to sail her proper course, just that B is not required to give A room to sail other than A's proper course, but why would A not want to sail her proper course?

3) the boat clear astern, while not entitled to mark room, is entitled to right of way if appropriate, within her obligations to mark-room as per above.

Assuming that this is a port rounding, then boats will be approaching on starboard, then gybing onto port.  The boat originally clear astern ( B ) will be on starboard, the boat originally clear ahead ( A ), after gybing willl be on port and required to keep clear, but,  while she is taking the mark-room or room to which she is entitled she shall be exonerated if she fails to keep clear (rule 21( a )).

That is within the bounds of mark-room, a boat clear ahead at a gybe mark, can not sail above her proper course after she has gybed , unless she has right of way to do so.  If after both boats have gybed,  the clear-ahead boat is now clear astern,

You seem to be talking about a room given room taken situation as in Case 63, where B gybes inside A at the mark.  In the compressed  time and space available, I wouldn't like B's chances of proving that A, after gybing was sailing above her proper course and not keeping clear

she must still comply with rule 17, however does not have to grant the formerly clear astern boat mark-room

Mmmm.  But as Case 63 says, B goes in there at her own risk:  if she can get in and out clear, OK, but she's going to have evidential difficulties proving that A failed to keep clear and wasn't within the room or mark-room to which she was entitled.

???

 

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1 hour ago, Brass said:

but why would A not want to sail her proper course?

I'll do some diagrams in a bit, but to answer this point. 

People in general don't like feeling like they've just lost something they feel they're entitled to.  The first reaction is to try and aggressively protect it.  So if they've say, left a fat hole at a gybe mark, the default response will be to tell the guy behind he has no rights and can't take that space.  This may or may not be followed by the first guy trying to "close the door" in order to protect what they think they feel they own.  That's the Red Mist psychology of it.

 

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19 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

Ime am starteng to secant guesse my undestaneng of RRS.

Somewhat celestial tangent. 

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