marisca

opti's (sic) rule

Recommended Posts

The comments from an Opti parent on the front page http://sailinganarchy.com/2018/01/30/optis-rule/ fill me with horror.  An arms race in hulls, rigs and sails on a pram dinghy sailed by 10 year olds?  Aren't we trying to produce good sailors rather than over-entitled rich brats?

How about turning up at an event with a boat, pooling the entries and being allocated a hull and mast by lot for each race, but getting to use your own sail?  No arms race, no buying results, just results by ability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the reality is that you could buy a boat from any of the current manufacturers and win a world championship. Some of Winners claims are likely to be blatantly false and would likely be taken of UK TV for false advertising. They claim they use a special fibreglass. I doubt very much there is much difference between the fibreglass they can commercially buy and that to the rest of the worlds boat builders. In terms of sails you could buy a sail from any of the 3-4 lofts that are popular and again win.

If parents are stupid enough to believe that this makes a difference then more fool them and shame on the coaches for allowing this nonsense. As an engineer I know different. I personally like the choice within the class in terms of equipment as it keeps standards high and costs within reason. Would I want the laser model of sails produced for $60 US dollars at a far east factory being sold to me for nearly 10 times the price.   

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That article is the biggest load of self serving crap.

i thank god I never sailed an Opti, though I did have the misfortune of being around some Opti parents.

i wonder how many of those kids ever just go sailing, without a coach nearby. You know, just put the boat in the water by yourself and just go enjoy the experience of sailing. I think that would be a very interesting statistic to know.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never sailed them, but I coached them. It was some of my favorite times coaching. I got lucky and most of my sailors were more into the racing than their parents. It's not THAT hard to make an opti go fast, and the density of the fleet makes it the best boat to learn strategy and tactics, bar none. The optimal age range is about 11-13, right when a lot of kids hit peak focus on their extracurricular interests before they hit high school and the distractions thereof. I had a great group of kids and I'll remember those years as a club opti coach forever.

One thing I will say is that it's an imperfect boat to learn sailing in. Not every kid wants to drive the boat, and that should be OK. My biggest challenge as a beginner instructor was trying to teach kids who wanted to be on the water but couldn't care less about learning to steer a boat. We use optis for primary instruction because I think we have a mentality that small = easy, but I think a doublehanded option for those first few years might be a good idea.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sunseeker said:

That article is the biggest load of self serving crap.

i thank god I never sailed an Opti, though I did have the misfortune of being around some Opti parents.

i wonder how many of those kids ever just go sailing, without a coach nearby. You know, just put the boat in the water by yourself and just go enjoy the experience of sailing. I think that would be a very interesting statistic to know.

Fortunately it is obvious you don't have a f**ng  clue of what you're talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's another thread to talk trash about the opti somewhere in this forum BTW...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Optis are fine training boats as long as the kids don't hit puberty right away, the kids that sail them until they're 15 usually end up burned out and socially incompetent.  Some will survive though.  The parents are the fucking worst though...and they're the real reason for this arms race that's been happening in Opti racing.  They also help to make the USODA and organizations like them some of the most difficult classes to work with.

If you want your kid to be normal and a good life long sailor, take it easy on the Opti bullshit.  Great training boats though, and it's always nice that you can fit them inside the trunk of your SUV or the bed of your pickup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I built and sold Optimists for 20 years. They are simultaneously the best and worst boats in the world.

On the good side, they are absolutely the best boat to sit 5 year olds inside and start them on the journey of going out and coming back.  Unlike so many other boat, the Opitimist seems to like children. It takes care of them lie a good dog.  The first thing a kid does is sit down in the back corner and pull the stick towards him. This starts a circle of tubes and tacks and some panic in our youngster, but unlike almost every other boat, it doesn't llead to an immediate capsize with the boat on top. This is due to four things, the low rig, the short daggerboard and the wide hard- chine of the bottom and generous freeboard. I don't know how much actual study Clark Mills did for this design, or whether he just thought it up around the optimal use of plywood, but he got it spot on.  As the boat heels, there is enough buoyancy in the sides and chimes to pick the daggerboard almost clear of the water without the gunwales going under and the boat swamping. The boat skids to leeward instead of capsizing, and the rig is low enough to not compound the problem.  So our lovely child gets a little spooked, and has stop screaming long enough to learn that you hold the stick in the middle when you want to go straight. Lesson One.

All the little knots are also good for learning about taking care of your boat. Do it wrong, and it matters, but not enough to kill you.

Then some brain box says we ought to race the little fuckers and everything goes to shit. Out nice little adventures turns into dodgeball and the most aggressive bully's win. The kids that will aim their boats anywhere and yell at others to get out of the way or they will hit them and throw them out of the race.  Perversely, we tell these bully's that they are great sailors and give them trophies.  The Moms and Dads in the rest of the fleet, who probably really like sailing and really want their kids to like it to, do what all parents do. They don't call the winners dickheads, but tell their kids to keep at it and try harder. They back this up by looking for coaches who can help their child compete, and they make sure that their child has all the tools and is not being disadvantaged because of something they did or didn't buy.  They are told all sorts of crap.... Langes are lighter in the ends....McLaughlin uses uncrimped knitted fabric for better torsional stiffness....  you have to have 7000 series aluminum masts....our new sail is so much faster.    The coaches are all former bullies, so you can guess what happens, by 12 years old most of the kids have been convinced that they suck at sailing.  By this age they have also become convinced that they suck at soccer, baseball, tennis, swimming, rugby, basketball and indoor lacrosse.  They fear they will suck at everything in life, and they haven't even reached puberty and dealt with pimples. Is it any wonder they don't stick around?

The parents are exhausted and feel like they have been raped. The promise never to buy their kid another boat. If they continue to sail, they can use the Club 420s, or crew on someone else's yacht. They can feel OK because they know enough about sailing to talk to a sailing boss, or go for a day sail on a clients yacht without calling a sail a sheet.

My kids all sailed used of rejected boats with left over sails and equipment. In part this was driven by my reluctance to have the "Sons of Vanguard" sailing around in pristine equipment and either being perceived as entitled pricks or actually acting like entitled pricks. We only raced on Narragansett Bay and avoided the whole traveling bit.  I relented when the North Americans were going to be held on the Bay, and bought them "standard" equipment. Their results were better sailing new boats than sailing the beaters, so  after all, equipment helps.

In the US we are obsessed with prodigy. We want to be the first ones to see a great one. As part of our outsourcing of parenting to dozens of service providers ( like coaches, music and dance instructors, academic enrichment etc) we inevitably hope that our kids show up at the top of something.  Sailing is one sport where you don't have to be great at it when you are 8 to be very good at it when you are 30. So the very competive nature of the Optimist class actually works in opposition to the goal of building the sport of competitive sailing.  

I couldn't do anything about it then, and I don't think we could do anything about it now. I like the approach that Nevin Sayre has charted with the BIC open. I don't think much of the boat design, but the unregatta that emphasizes skill building and fun seems like a healthy alternative.

SHC

  • Like 15

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, serioladumerili said:

just one picture.. 20+kts, up to 1,5m waves

 

gallery_44126_882_9849.jpg

The opti is by far the best learning boat I've seen for young kids, it has the largest range of conditions to sail, it's dry enough to sail in the winter, fast enough to have fun, safe enough for the smallest children, technical enough to learn more about boat and sail trim than any other boat it's size and generates incredibly tight racing. Plus it's cheap, easy to transport and fun to play with, fuck, my 6yo went fishing with it last year, try that on an Open BIC.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, RumLine said:

The parents are the fucking worst though...and they're the real reason for this arms race that's been happening in Opti racing. 

Yup, and they are the same parents you'll see on the 420 or laser fleet , only by then the kids are already in the "I hate my parents age", also known as puberty.

It has nothing to do with the boat, it's the people. Some people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

Then some brain box says we ought to race the little fuckers and everything goes to shit.

Precisely. And by the time the kids have reached 15 they've sailed is some of the biggest events they're ever going to do, they've sailed in as many different countries and international events as they're ever going to do, there's nothing to look forward to unless one of the tiny minority that goes to the Olympics. Been there done that for a lifetime sport at the age of 15. If I ruled the world I'd ban international events for junior and youth classes and heavily restrict travel radius even for National events.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, chuso007 said:

Yup, and they are the same parents you'll see on the 420 or laser fleet , only by then the kids are already in the "I hate my parents age",

Which is why any kind of competitive racing should be prohibited until the kids are old enough to say shut up Dad/Mom/Whatever you're embarassing me.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At least when the kids are on the water their parents are not around, you should see football parents... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, JimC said:

Precisely. And by the time the kids have reached 15 they've sailed is some of the biggest events they're ever going to do, they've sailed in as many different countries and international events as they're ever going to do, there's nothing to look forward to unless one of the tiny minority that goes to the Olympics. Been there done that for a lifetime sport at the age of 15. If I ruled the world I'd ban international events for junior and youth classes and heavily restrict travel radius even for National events.

Opti parents in my experience are no worse that soccer parents, volleyball parents, dance parents, tennis parents and most other parents obsessed with their kid's sport. They usually have a lot of extra money and time to drive/fly their kid around the country and world to see them compete.  This in many ways is more a problem of upper middle class parents spending insane amounts of money on their kids' sports and thereby reliving their own childhoods. Many parents seem to think that their life is validated by how successful their children are in sports even though they know that the kid will never make an honest living from that sport. In many ways it is a cop out from the actual work of parenting since hiring coaches and flying to regattas is easier than helping kids with homework and checking on how they do in school.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Rum Runner said:

Opti parents in my experience are no worse that soccer parents, volleyball parents,...

Yeah, but that's like saying paratyphoid is no worse than typhoid...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never sailed Opti’s (as a youth) but I was a coach in a few programs that used them.  Some of the sailors I coached went on to become college All Americans.  I think the Opti bashers are being unfair to the boat and maybe even to the class. 

 

First the cons – the boats are slow.  They are not technical.  At least in America too many sailors ‘weigh out’ before they ‘age out’.  And as pointed out above, there’s no room for a sailor who is happier being a crew than a skipper.  On the plus side Optis are simple and relatively cheap.  They hold their value:  A well maintained $1,500 boat with a new sail is likely to be just as competitive as a new boat with a new sail.  They are very robust, bordering on indestructible.  It’s easy for a coach to rescue.  And an Opti can be sailed by a relatively young sailor in extreme conditions.  I routinely held practices in 25 gusting to 30 with 11-year olds sailing.  I’ve escorted a team of 5 through a pass in which two powerboats flipped over including the RC finish line boat which was a 22-ft Mako.  Three of the five sailed through the pass without any problem, one actually tried to go back because she was having so much fun surfing the waves.  I towed the other two through.  In what other boat could a 11-12 year old handle such conditions?  Try towing two Lasers through 8-ft following seas.

 

What are the alternatives to the Opti? 

Sabot:  Don’t know enough about these to comment.

Laser:  Too big for small sailors.  Boat’s don’t hold their value.  Not much more technical than an opti.  Difficult for coach to rescue in strong winds / big seas.

Euro dingly:  Too expensive.  Too big for the really small sailors.

Open Bic:  Maybe, but I think it has a fatal flaw, how many of you can spot it?  

As for the Opti Class – yes there some A-hole parents.   But it’s a huge class with a lot of members; most of the parents are very nice people.   It’s not fair to indict the entire class because of a few jackasses.  An nobody forces all the kids to compete in the top level events like Lake Garda.   There are plenty of low-key regional regattas – which is all I envision doing with my son.   I mentioned the college All Americans I had the pleasure of coaching.  But I am just as proud of the kid I coached back in the day who never once won a race in the Opti class.  He is now a very competent club racer.  I have complete faith that he can handle is 32-ft boat in any conditions I could – he learned those skills and independence in an Opti.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of the parents in my kids Opti group are great, a few are a little too intense. There's one my wife and I call 'advice mom' because she's always giving us unsolicited advice for our kids equipment. The coaches are great and the kids are always having a good time. 

Dont fall for the Opti arms race, it is 90% ability just like any other sport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I second smokeandoakum, it's a huge class and most are very nice people.

I have occasionally coached optis for the last ten years at some of the top events, and did find the front page article to be somewhat tone deaf.  In the top 5 of the Team Trials last year, I believe there were three different manufacturers boats (ranging from the least to most expensive), three different types of foils, two different types of spars and two different sailmakers.  Realistically only the sail makes a difference for the most attentive kids, because all the sails have a certain way they need to be tied on/tuned.

As a coach it has been most important to me that the kids have fun, are respectful, and pick up a new skill that will serve them in not only sailing, but life in general.

Of course there are some bad apples, and they usually take on the mindset and personality of the coaches who need to produce results to justify a paycheck.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We sail on a tiny lake and have very little funds and an all volunteer program. Only a few of the kids own their own boat and the rest sail club boats at a cost of maybe 100 Euro for the year for youth membership and we organize travel to regattas as a group so it costs almost nothing for the kids. For the better sailors we have a couple of up to date Regatta Opti's. It seems to work out. Sure lot's drop out but some stay on and graduate to Lasers and what not but they all have fun. Starter boats are cheap and durable and there are a lot of them and a lot to race against. No better boat for the quite young ones.
The more advanced kids from from my club go every year to the big Lake Garda event as a group with a coach, thousand some other Opti sailors, great sailing and lot's of socializing at the campground and around the lake.
The class can't be all that bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, smokeandoakum said:

Open Bic:  Maybe, but I think it has a fatal flaw, how many of you can spot it?

Never sailed them, but our local opti kids from Vigo rejected them as being too wet.

Water here's 13ºC today, (I just checked), kid's training is from 10:00 to 14:30 hrs. 4,5 hours with your ass soaking wet at 13ºC is not as fun as it sounds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, sunseeker said:

That article is the biggest load of self serving crap.

i thank god I never sailed an Opti, though I did have the misfortune of being around some Opti parents.

i wonder how many of those kids ever just go sailing, without a coach nearby. You know, just put the boat in the water by yourself and just go enjoy the experience of sailing. I think that would be a very interesting statistic to know.

Probably NONE! Have you ever tried sailing an opti for fun? They are awful....Super slow not very comfy, and booooorrring.  I cant ever see any of my kids having asked to go leisure sailing in an opti. When they are racing optis there is something interesting to focus on instead of the painful slowness. At least with something like a sunfish or laser, you can make some distance and do some exploring. All without bailing too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Special fibreglass, eh? I had to race one of the last ply optis back in the 1970s/80s, when everybody else had already jumped on the new glass hulls. Taken together, my boat and me must have been twice as heavy as some of the competitors. Whenever there was enough wind for me to actually think about hiking, races were of course cancelled because the younger kids got scared.

Optis! Most sailors are too tall and heavy for them by the time they turn twelve and then they have to wait four more years until they can step into something like ... the Laser! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*threadjack* mad props for knowing how apostrophes work and how to present writing errors...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, chuso007 said:

At least when the kids are on the water their parents are not around, you should see football parents... 

That statement there shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.  Mom boats are everywhere. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never sailed oppies but I've worked at many opti events in safety boat or mark laying roles. This "arms race" doesn't surprise me at all, the parents were the rudest and the most competitive people I have met so far in sailing. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, GTim said:

Probably NONE! Have you ever tried sailing an opti for fun? They are awful....Super slow not very comfy, and booooorrring.  I cant ever see any of my kids having asked to go leisure sailing in an opti. When they are racing optis there is something interesting to focus on instead of the painful slowness. At least with something like a sunfish or laser, you can make some distance and do some exploring. All without bailing too.

You must have had a pretty sad childhood, sorry about that.

A laser for a ten year old? You certaily deserve the "Dad of the Year" award.

 

I wonder if it's ignorance or stupidity.

2 hours ago, Gone Drinking said:

That statement there shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.  Mom boats are everywhere. 

Maybe on your area, certainly not around here. But it's true, ten years coaching optis and five coaching soccer teams  probably means I don't know what I'm talking about.

Edit:I was talking about European football, where every parent thinks his offspring's going to sign up for Real Madrid some day and make them millionaires

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ten years coaching optis and these are your posts - the parents should ask for their money back.  As for lasers - what is wrong with that.  Sure a full rig is a bit much for racing for a 10 year old - but how about a radial or 4.7?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't have a fucking clue do you? I own a laser FFS...  The 4.7 is for a crew of 40-60 kgs. My son weighs 24kgs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I raced 4.7's for a minute. Curious how i would feel about it now but i never really liked it, even at 120lbs @ 13yo. I'm 130ish now. I ended up crewing 420's and eventually 29er's because i thought hiking was stupid.... eh, not much changed there. I still love the 29er, fast enough to hold my interest even after years and years of blasting around the course. If i still lived where dinghy access was easy and i could find some other old people to race i would definitely do it. The 420... meh. It's fun to hop in once a year and get all nostalgic, but so is plugging in my SNES. Eventually you realize why you got bored of it. Damn i miss 29er's... Getting too much lead poisoning these days. 

 

As for the optis and youngins, the only thing i'll add is: there are kids who want to race. There are kids who don't want to race. There are kids who think they don't want to race that ultimately enjoy the shit out of it once they do. There are kids who want to race/be competitive, don't get the outlet to race/be competitive, and go to soccer camp instead. There is no one size fits all. The other thing is, ever stand on the sidelines of peewee football? american football, to you ferreners. If i ever talked like that to my sailors i'd have been fired on the spot! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

Special fibreglass, eh? I had to race one of the last ply optis back in the 1970s/80s, when everybody else had already jumped on the new glass hulls. Taken together, my boat and me must have been twice as heavy as some of the competitors. Whenever there was enough wind for me to actually think about hiking, races were of course cancelled because the younger kids got scared.

Optis! Most sailors are too tall and heavy for them by the time they turn twelve and then they have to wait four more years until they can step into something like ... the Laser! 

My kids both raced plywood optis--just a couple  7 years ago! (Man does time fly when you do the maths.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

I raced 4.7's for a minute. Curious how i would feel about it now but i never really liked it, even at 120lbs @ 13yo. I'm 130ish now. I ended up crewing 420's and eventually 29er's because i thought hiking was stupid.... eh, not much changed there. I still love the 29er, fast enough to hold my interest even after years and years of blasting around the course. If i still lived where dinghy access was easy and i could find some other old people to race i would definitely do it. The 420... meh. It's fun to hop in once a year and get all nostalgic, but so is plugging in my SNES. Eventually you realize why you got bored of it. Damn i miss 29er's... Getting too much lead poisoning these days. 

 

As for the optis and youngins, the only thing i'll add is: there are kids who want to race. There are kids who don't want to race. There are kids who think they don't want to race that ultimately enjoy the shit out of it once they do. There are kids who want to race/be competitive, don't get the outlet to race/be competitive, and go to soccer camp instead. There is no one size fits all. The other thing is, ever stand on the sidelines of peewee football? american football, to you ferreners. If i ever talked like that to my sailors i'd have been fired on the spot! 

+ +

Most of the problems that people describe saying "Optis Suck!" or whatever is due to poor coaching, not the boats' fault. Kids can sail Optis and hav a blast. That can include racing or not. Kids can sail ultra-modern sleek-looking whatevers, bored and just waiting for the day when Daddy stops making them sail. YMMV

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My humble Opinion -  Optis SUCK.  Horrible boat to learn in - you have to have the latest stuff to be competitive.  The kids figure it out if they are not in a few races; then start asking for better stuff.

 My daughter hates is less than BIC so we sail the Opti.  We are leaving the Opti for the 420 so she can sail with her 14 yr old brother.  She told be "best day in my life dad".

Just my thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

+ +

Most of the problems that people describe saying "Optis Suck!" or whatever is due to poor coaching, not the boats' fault. Kids can sail Optis and hav a blast. That can include racing or not. Kids can sail ultra-modern sleek-looking whatevers, bored and just waiting for the day when Daddy stops making them sail. YMMV

FB- Doug

those are the kids that need to race. Or sail/race 29er's when they age out of optis (whatever age/size you/they set as a threshold...)... I was sailing 420's at orange bowl one year, had a particularly good race and we're up in the top 5. I'm hiking. My body is hurting from days of this shit. And i'm thinking... damn i can't wait for this regatta to be over. Aside from any time i was in physical pain due to injury (or had cheaped out/lazied out on a repair that just bit me in the ass), i was always happy racing the 29er - even when my muscles were on fire. Even if i wasn't out front. 

 

On a side note, i have not been impressed with any other little boats. The bic is too heavy, too low, and mylar for a learn to sail boat is asinine. The bug is just a worse version of the opti... combined with the worst features of the bic. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Opti isn't all bad. It surely shaped my style. I still like to point a little too high (you could get away with that in an Opti), I still like a little more weather helm (Opti rudder is almost as big as the centerboard), and I always pay closest attention to weight trim. When going ddw in displacement boats, I square out the main as much as possible, I run a little by the lee, and hike to windward (I capsized my Opti to windward once on a calm day because I overdid it...). Oh, and if annybody yells anything at me I yell back: "MAST ABEAM ! ! ! ! ! (That somehow doesnt work as good as it did back in the day, must be the missing sprit boom...)

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, 10thTonner said:

The Opti isn't all bad. It surely shaped my style. I still like to point a little too high (you could get away with that in an Opti), I still like a little more weather helm (Opti rudder is almost as big as the centerboard), and I always pay closest attention to weight trim. When going ddw in displacement boats, I square out the main as much as possible, I run a little by the lee, and hike to windward (I capsized my Opti to windward once on a calm day because I overdid it...). Oh, and if annybody yells anything at me I yell back: "MAST ABEAM ! ! ! ! ! (That somehow doesnt work as good as it did back in the day, must be the missing sprit boom...)

 

Try yelling "SNOTTER !!" and see if that works any better.

FB- Doug

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol: My oldest did the Opti International travel circuit for awhile, beat some current world this and that champs, had a Collegiate All American coach for a bit and all on stock gear. He was calm and smart enough to go fast in the right direction fairly often and a coach smart enough to teach him that the special blades and masts were  a distraction to the goal. And yes, many of the parents where complete asshats.  I think the Opti an excellent platform for learning helming, starting, tactics etc for the right kid. He declined to continue with college sailing but still hauls his laser to Wed night races,  and crews on anything fun.  HE loves the sport.

OTOH my second son asked to quit sailing at age 11. While competent on the Opti race course, it didn't excite him. fair enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've coached kids in Sabots and Opti's. Both have done their jobs equally well. Both kids have complained about both boats, and both kids have loved their boats. But both have taught sailing. It doesn't matter what kind of boat they sail, they just need to get out there and learn.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

 If anybody yells anything at me, I yell back: "MAST ABEAM !!!!!"

If you want to vary it up a bit, just yell "STARBOARD!!!" ... regardless of which tack you or the other boat are actually on.

Many people are so embarassingly hazy about the RRS - not to mention sailing fundamentals - that they can easily be psyched out.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Svanen said:

If you want to vary it up a bit, just yell "STARBOARD!!!" ... regardless of which tack you or the other boat are actually on.

Case 47
Rule 2, Fair Sailing
A boat that deliberately hails “Starboard” when she knows she is on port tack has not acted fairly, and has broken rule 2.
Facts
An experienced helmsman of a port-tack boat hails “Starboard” to a beginner who, although on starboard tack, not being sure of himself and probably being scared of having his boat holed, tacks to port to avoid a collision. No protest is lodged.
 
One school of thought argues that it is fair game, because if a helmsman does not know the rules, that is his own hard luck. The other school rejects this argument, on the grounds that it is quite contrary to the spirit of the rules to deceive a competitor in that way.
 
It is known that such a trick is often played, particularly when novices are involved.
 
Question
In such a case, in addition to breaking rule 10, has the port-tack boat broken rule 2?
 
Answer
A boat that deliberately hails “Starboard” when she knows she is on port tack has not acted fairly and has broken rule 2. The protest committee might also consider taking action under rule 69.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Svanen said:

If you want to vary it up a bit, just yell "STARBOARD!!!" ... regardless of which tack you or the other boat are actually on.

Many people are so embarassingly hazy about the RRS - not to mention sailing fundamentals - that they can easily be psyched out.

That could get a bit soggy & hard to light. Depends on the situation.

Of course, you could say the same about "Mast Abeam"

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Piran, Slovenia.  Optis having fun. Just fun.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Try that, with that weight and age, on a 4.7 laser

This is here in Vigo, if they sailed any other boat these kids would've been on shore playing with their smartphones that day:

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

Ok, "starboard" is out. What about something like "RULE NINETY-THREE!"  ...?

Tell the other skipper, "You're on double secret probation!"

AnimalHouse-Grades.jpg

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the FP post really brought me back to my own opti days when the class was just starting to gain traction in the late 80's and early 90's.  Back then the boats were actually different enough from one manufacturer that you could see and feel the difference when you sailed the different boats.  Blades actually were different from one manufacturer to another, and when you got fancy blades from a company that specialized in them... they were actually nicer than stock blades.   Now all of this being said, I agree with the comments above that this is generally a distraction in many ways, and not exactly healthy.  IODA has standardized the rules significantly since I was sailing the boats, and the fact is that the rules are almost completely prescriptive.  This means that any marketing by one company or another claiming that their boats have some kind of technical difference or edge, or any perceived technical difference or edge is complete BS.  Sadly, the intended result of these rule changes (to make things more level and cost effective) has largely backfired.  The boats are just as expensive as they were before and there are the same "high end" suppliers out there hawking products for an insane markup to gullible optiparents who have been convinced by their private Argentinian coach that to use anything else would put their precious child at a serious disadvantage.  

  I know Steve has already weighed in here on his thoughts about Optis, and I'll relate a story he told me a while back that speaks to what I've already written.  I forget the exact details, but basically at one point Steve was curious about the stiffness of the famously expensive black and gold Opti spars vs the cheapest extrusions that he could source as a builder.  The results of his testing showed that the cheapest anodized alloy (6061?) that he could get actually outperformed the super expensive black and gold spars that were marketed to parents as a must have accessory to Opti success.  I just checked the price of Optimax spars at Sturgis boatworks and they are over $700!  Sorry, but this is simply ridiculous, and doesn't really help in the battle to stop sailing from dying out completely.

  To all the people that are convinced that kids HAVE TO SAIL OPTIS in order to attain high level sailing skills, I say that that is hogwash, and simply ignores basic logic and the evidence at hand.  I consider myself lucky that I have competed in sailing for more than 2/3ds of my life at this point.  The more you race and the better you get and the further you travel and the better you do, you begin to get a pretty darn good feel for who the good sailors are all over the country.  A rather large number of these sailors HAVE NEVER SAILED AN OPTIMIST.... and somehow these guys and girls are winning international events!  Jim C also raised a point that I have been making to parents for years now about fleet sizes.  The success of the Optimist as a class has fostered this notion that it is really important that kids race in races like the Opti New Englands (which my dad founded btw) which can have 300+ boats.  Now this is great fun when you are a kid going to these large events, mostly because it's a real scene both on and off the water.  But to say that this experience is somehow representative of the competitive sailing that these kids will experience throughout their lives is insane.  The skills required to manage a 100+ boat fleet vs sailing in a 20 boat fleet are a lot different.  I know in my personal case, I became a top 5 Opti sailor when I figured out how to get a consistently good start at the favored end of the line.  I could make my boat go reasonably well, but when you have that much leverage on such a large line where there are 4 rows of boats along its entire length, the start becomes far more important overall than it is on a smaller line.  Also, just because I figured out how to start in such large chaotic lines didn't really speak to me actually having any real depth of skills when it came to starting tactics.  It was much more about managing large groups of boats than it was about knowing how to execute a dip start or a port approach or a pin end start etc. 

 I know this is rambling a bit, but I have pretty strong feelings about sailing and boats as I think all of us here do.  While I can look back at my life of sailing so far and certainly point to my Opti days as important to my development as a lifelong competitive sailor, I can also say that Optis are not what cemented my love of sailing and the water, and not where I became a technically good sailor, despite being internationally successful in the class.  I sailed for three years in Dyer Dhows, Flying Terns, Widgeons, Lasers and Rhodes 19's before I ever jumped into an opti.  My brother and I were lucky enough to have a Boston Whaler that we commuted across Salem Sound to go sailing in.  We were not only very privileged  to have that boat, but we were blessed with parents that allowed us to be kids and find trouble at such a young age (I was 11 when we started plying the waters unassisted in our whaler).  This, and walking around the local boat yards and getting rides on bigger more exotic looking boats, and water skiing and outrunning the harbormaster was what really cemented my overriding love of messing about in boats.  I couldn't care less if my kids become awesome racers or not (although it would be a real thrill to compete with them), but it will be a real disappointment if they can't see how magical just going for a sail can be.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/31/2018 at 2:01 PM, Gone Drinking said:

Ten years coaching optis and these are your posts - the parents should ask for their money back.  As for lasers - what is wrong with that.  Sure a full rig is a bit much for racing for a 10 year old - but how about a radial or 4.7?  

 

On 1/31/2018 at 2:11 PM, chuso007 said:

You don't have a fucking clue do you? I own a laser FFS...  The 4.7 is for a crew of 40-60 kgs. My son weighs 24kgs. 

10 year olds in Spain are only 24kgs??  We really should do more to help the less fortunate, malnourished children of 3rd world countries.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Mark Set (BIMBO Local 713) said:

 

10 year olds in Spain are only 24kgs??  We really should do more to help the less fortunate, malnourished children of 3rd world countries.

My son, as I said earlier , is six (and a month) and he started saling on  his 40yo opti last summer.  An average 10yo weighs around 32 kgs., which is about 60% of the ideal weight for a laser 4.7.(on the low side)

We really should do more to help first world fucking dimwits who can't read, let alone understand such  a simple concept

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The boat sucks, some of the parents are worse, but at this point i look at racing them more as a rite of passage.  If the lad can keep the little shitter going in light air and chop, better boats will be far easier for them down the road...

Santa brought my nearly 3 year old son a decent used opti. gonna splash it on the bay next weekend, we'll see how a little doublehanding w/ dad goes...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing I can’t stand about the Opti is the rampant self righteousness that eminates from far too many people associated with the class. It’s as if you didn’t or don’t sail an Opti and if you do don’t make any of the international travel teams, you suck.

well fuck all of you self righteous cunts.

there happen to be people who prefer to sail with other people, on more interesting boats and do something besides sail a crappy boat on the same courses over and over with a bunch of overpaid obnoxious self centered coaches and class administrators who are really nothing more than dorky playground supervisors with clipboards and whistles.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

The thing I can’t stand about the Opti is the rampant self righteousness that eminates from far too many people associated with the class. It’s as if you didn’t or don’t sail an Opti and if you do don’t make any of the international travel teams, you suck.

well fuck all of you self righteous cunts.

there happen to be people who prefer to sail with other people, on more interesting boats and do something besides sail a crappy boat on the same courses over and over with a bunch of overpaid obnoxious self centered coaches and class administrators who are really nothing more than dorky playground supervisors with clipboards and whistles.

 

It is not all like that.
It can be a wonder fun experience.
My kid is in the yellow boat.
https://c-40050040461.http.atlas.cdn.yimg.com/flickr6/32459531@N06/40050040461/40050040461_288p.mp4?dt=flickr&x=1517620768&m=video%2Fmp4&fn=40050040461_700&bt=0&a=flickr&d=cp_d%3Dwww.flickr.com%26cp_t%3Ds%26cp%3D792600246%26mid%3D40050040461%26ufn%3D40050040461_700&s=3dc6f59c4d35c48ad69c63530c1b0dc7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Your experience is different than mine I guess. Though link doesn’t work, but if your kid is having fun, great. Just get them out of there before the Opti bullies get to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With a reasonably intelligent purchase of middling price, with one set of spars and one good racing sail, a opti racer can win most regattas.  The insanity only kicks in at the very very top of a massive massive global fleet. Anybody in a local or even regional regatta going to those extremes is certified nuts and almost surely not getting value for money. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, sunseeker said:

The thing I can’t stand about the Opti is the rampant self righteousness that eminates from far too many people associated with the class. It’s as if you didn’t or don’t sail an Opti and if you do don’t make any of the international travel teams, you suck.

well fuck all of you self righteous cunts.

there happen to be people who prefer to sail with other people, on more interesting boats and do something besides sail a crappy boat on the same courses over and over with a bunch of overpaid obnoxious self centered coaches and class administrators who are really nothing more than dorky playground supervisors with clipboards and whistles.

For some reason, in the sailing world we 'eat our own' by all-too-often putting down anyone whose experience and skills don't match ours. E.g., if you haven't crossed an ocean / sailed a catamaran / done the Hobart, or don't know how to do wire splicing / celestial navigation / marine electrical repairs, you are deemed "not a 'real' sailor".

It's exclusionary, self-defeating, and kinda pathetic. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, sunseeker said:

The thing I can’t stand about the Opti is the rampant self righteousness that eminates from far too many people associated with the class. It’s as if you didn’t or don’t sail an Opti and if you do don’t make any of the international travel teams, you suck.

well fuck all of you self righteous cunts.

there happen to be people who prefer to sail with other people, on more interesting boats and do something besides sail a crappy boat on the same courses over and over with a bunch of overpaid obnoxious self centered coaches and class administrators who are really nothing more than dorky playground supervisors with clipboards and whistles.

 

You must live in a nice place surrounded by nice people. I feel sorry for you mate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I inherited my first opti (10 yo or so), my best friend inherited one too. I had sailed before on my dad's boats so I was more than able to sail and explore the bay by myself. Until I was 15 and excanged it for a windsurfer (it was the 80's..) we would rig our boats every day of the summer and sail the shit out of them, we put spinnakers on them, we went fishing, even we got stranded with no wind about three miles away and caused a total commotion on  the club until they found us at 23:30 hrs. and I also won my first races (and met Chuni Bermúdez, who would regularly beat everyone by a mile).

For almost zero money, I had some of the best times of my existence and became hooked for life to this sport, that's why I love these little shitboxes, by far, the best boat there is for little kids.

And my dad never got me anything I didn't really need, BTW.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

circa. 1985. no coaches, no help, just a couple of 12yo friends

CopaAmerica.jpg

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One last thought... in the US between Optis and college double handed racing in mostly light air, many bigger kids are left a bit out of the mainstream. My son is 6’, 145 lbs.  he is 12.  And much taller than all of the instructors and coaches who are in the area. All of whom are accomplished college sailors. No more opti for him. All the kids his age who are crazy into sailing are sailing Optis. He is probably going to try and race Laser radials against 16 year olds this summer. 

 

Sailing is ridiculously rich in variety.  It is difficult to strike a balance between one design and opening the door to a much broader experience and set of opportunities.  Kids I taught to sail 25+ years ago have gone onto to evererthung from the Americas cup to Volvo ocean racing to puddle ducking in cat boats. None of them were Opti gods. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yesterday I was walking around the harbor in Santa Barbara, and the only noise was the Opti coaches bull horns yelling at the kids to "sail more aggressively", the kids were from 6 to 10 years old.  It was a nice day, until that.  One time I was surfing big Rincon and a dad was out there yelling at his son to be a man [the kid was scared, we were all scared, big Rincon can be a brutal].  The kid was about 10 years old. My friend, the enforcer, told the dad that he had learned nothing from the sea, he would help the son make it to the beach, and if he ever saw him[the dad] there again he would beat the shit out of him.  The kid still surfs for fun and is now sharing that fun with his kids.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, chuso007 said:

My son, as I said earlier , is six (and a month) and he started saling on  his 40yo opti last summer.  An average 10yo weighs around 32 kgs., which is about 60% of the ideal weight for a laser 4.7.(on the low side)

We really should do more to help first world fucking dimwits who can't read, let alone understand such  a simple concept

I think a number of people on this thread think that we should just give 10 year olds international moths. This would spice youth sailing up no end. Hopefully the dimwit suggesting lasers will find out that your average 10 year old is not heavy enough to right the fucking thing let alone sail it on his own kid and not a group of unsuspecting kids. Maybe the clue will be when they can't move it on the shore as the boat and trolley weighs two to three times that of the sailor.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, bdu98252 said:

I think a number of people on this thread think that we should just give 10 year olds international moths. This would spice youth sailing up no end. Hopefully the dimwit suggesting lasers will find out that your average 10 year old is not heavy enough to right the fucking thing let alone sail it on his own kid and not a group of unsuspecting kids. Maybe the clue will be when they can't move it on the shore as the boat and trolley weighs two to three times that of the sailor.

Generally speaking in the east coast, 12 year olds can sail Lasers. 10 year olds you need two of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

kids can't walk across the street without both parents and a nannies supervision you really think you could send preteens out in a boat unsupervised in 2018. Any youth sport with a large amount of participants is going to have some asshats in it just ignore and move on.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Lake Shark said:

kids can't walk across the street without both parents and a nannies supervision you really think you could send preteens out in a boat unsupervised in 2018. Any youth sport with a large amount of participants is going to have some asshats in it just ignore and move on.

I was ice fishing today with my daughter. We had a thaw for a few days earlier this week in the 50s. Then it got cold aagain was 5F last night. The ice was 10" thick last Saturday. We are out on the ice, it is 8" thick.  Two teenage boys amble along and start going out on it. A few minutes later the parents show up and are yelling out to them to get over here now. Go around the pond. I see this going on so I start jumping up and down on the ice. Haha. The parents would not set foot on the ice.

Cotton wool. Buy stock in cotton wool.
New Englanders with no sense or knowledge of ice. They should move to Florida and plug themselves into feeding tubes.

Rant off.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/3/2018 at 5:04 AM, chuso007 said:

circa. 1985. no coaches, no help, just a couple of 12yo friends

CopaAmerica.jpg

a coach probably would have nipped that bow-up trip and windward heel though :rolleyes:

On 2/3/2018 at 6:52 AM, frostbit said:

One last thought... in the US between Optis and college double handed racing in mostly light air, many bigger kids are left a bit out of the mainstream. My son is 6’, 145 lbs.  he is 12.  And much taller than all of the instructors and coaches who are in the area. All of whom are accomplished college sailors. No more opti for him. All the kids his age who are crazy into sailing are sailing Optis. He is probably going to try and race Laser radials against 16 year olds this summer. 

 

Sailing is ridiculously rich in variety.  It is difficult to strike a balance between one design and opening the door to a much broader experience and set of opportunities.  Kids I taught to sail 25+ years ago have gone onto to evererthung from the Americas cup to Volvo ocean racing to puddle ducking in cat boats. None of them were Opti gods. 

maybe crew 420's (mixed with some driving), then drive later or transition to 29er's? nothing says your kid needs to sail singlehanders. in a crewed boat he could sail with someone older and learn a bit. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Generally speaking in the east coast, 12 year olds can sail Lasers. 10 year olds you need two of them.

i wouldn't put a 12yo out in a lser in +20kts no matter how good they think they are. But an opti? No problem for a competent sailor. Even 15kts the laser can get squirly downwind, especially if you don't have the strength to pump the main and flatten it back out. And gybing? fuck that... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Lake Shark said:

kids can't walk across the street without both parents and a nannies supervision you really think you could send preteens out in a boat unsupervised in 2018. Any youth sport with a large amount of participants is going to have some asshats in it just ignore and move on.

the best thing parents can do is to let the kids go out and sail without coaches. I'm a racer, i appreciate the coaches i had, but there where also plenty of days we went out on our own and either just sailed around or ran our own drills. The time we went out in 20kts and put up a flying scott spinnaker on a 420 will always be a standout memory... 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

i wouldn't put a 12yo out in a lser in +20kts no matter how good they think they are. But an opti? No problem for a competent sailor. Even 15kts the laser can get squirly downwind, especially if you don't have the strength to pump the main and flatten it back out. And gybing? fuck that... 

Who said anything about 20 knots?
Durning summer junior fleet season, one or two days a year is all you ever see of that in the Chesapeake, or LIS.
We sailed lasers at that age. Alone. 12. Was not a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Who said anything about 20 knots?
Durning summer junior fleet season, one or two days a year is all you ever see of that in the Chesapeake, or LIS.
We sailed lasers at that age. Alone. 12. Was not a problem.

In 5 sure... Where I coached we regularly had +10, and several days of +15. I sailed radials at 14 and 120ish, maybe lighter. Could be a problem ... I did have one race where if I didn't have my coach come up behind me and coach me (race abandoned ) I might not have made it back in without rescue... Once he proved I could in fact handle it I was put on tow. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mustang__1 said:

In 5 sure... Where I coached we regularly had +10, and several days of +15. I sailed radials at 14 and 120ish, maybe lighter. Could be a problem ... I did have one race where if I didn't have my coach come up behind me and coach me (race abandoned ) I might not have made it back in without rescue... Once he proved I could in fact handle it I was put on tow. 

Strange. Maybe we had a lot of 5 or less. I guess we did. But we all managed to sail the laser full rig no real problem. Back then we even had regular junior regattas in them all over the bay! I think you simply learn how to depower and how to handle a boat.  Technique is more important than weight to staying sailing. Weight matters upwind for speed.

I guess the Optimist has recalibrated people to thinking you just can't sail a freaking laser as a 12 year old.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Strange. Maybe we had a lot of 5 or less. I guess we did. But we all managed to sail the laser full rig no real problem. Back then we even had regular junior regattas in them all over the bay! I think you simply learn how to depower and how to handle a boat.  Technique is more important than weight to staying sailing. Weight matters upwind for speed.

I guess the Optimist has recalibrated people to thinking you just can't sail a freaking laser as a 12 year old.

I never stepped foot in an opti. I should have but I started racing when I was 13 so was sort of a gray area (spent a moment tooling around in 420s before the laser before the 420s again (properly) before the 29er). A laser is no big deal in 5, 15 and you start needing some weight to make it go, and weight and technique to make it go in waves (see previous anecdote). At 27 I suspect the laser would still give me a run for.my money if I had to sail it downwind in big waves and wind, as far as being able to pump my way out of a deathroll. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

the best thing parents can do is to let the kids go out and sail without coaches. I'm a racer, i appreciate the coaches i had, but there where also plenty of days we went out on our own and either just sailed around or ran our own drills. The time we went out in 20kts and put up a flying scott spinnaker on a 420 will always be a standout memory... 

If kids don't.... or won't..... go sailing just for the fun of it, then you can bet that they don't enjoy it very much. And then what?

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/2/2018 at 5:11 PM, chuso007 said:

My son, as I said earlier , is six (and a month) and he started saling on  his 40yo opti last summer.  An average 10yo weighs around 32 kgs., which is about 60% of the ideal weight for a laser 4.7.(on the low side)

We really should do more to help first world fucking dimwits who can't read, let alone understand such  a simple concept

Yes, and you're the one comparing 6 year olds with 10 year olds for no reason

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

If kids don't.... or won't..... go sailing just for the fun of it, then you can bet that they don't enjoy it very much. And then what?

FB- Doug

i think the real issue is parents letting them. That said, if you've got the situation where the kids don't want to go out alone, that's also a problem... 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/31/2018 at 5:46 PM, fastyacht said:
On 1/31/2018 at 11:49 AM, 10thTonner said:

Special fibreglass, eh? I had to race one of the last ply optis back in the 1970s/80s, when everybody else had already jumped on the new glass hulls. Taken together, my boat and me must have been twice as heavy as some of the competitors. Whenever there was enough wind for me to actually think about hiking, races were of course cancelled because the younger kids got scared.

Optis! Most sailors are too tall and heavy for them by the time they turn twelve and then they have to wait four more years until they can step into something like ... the Laser! 

My kids both raced plywood optis--just a couple  7 years ago! (Man does time fly when you do the maths.)

I had a wood Opti but had learned in the Coral Reef Yacht Club's fiberglass boats prior to buying it. My wood boat was lighter.

That was 1977 and I'm not sure how old the boat was when I bought it.

I never raced it and never really intended to race it. I bought it because it was cheap and available and a friend had one. We had a ball in those boats.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/31/2018 at 8:07 AM, smokeandoakum said:

What are the alternatives to the Opti? 

Sabot:  Don’t know enough about these to comment.

Laser:  Too big for small sailors.  Boat’s don’t hold their value.  Not much more technical than an opti.  Difficult for coach to rescue in strong winds / big seas.

Euro dingly:  Too expensive.  Too big for the really small sailors.

Open Bic:  Maybe, but I think it has a fatal flaw, how many of you can spot it?  

Another alternative.... 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, sazx said:

Another alternative.... 

 

I think this boat sums up sailing at present. £2500-3000 depending upon options for a rotomoulded boat with some alloy extrusions and the odd bit of injection moulded plastic and a sail worth a tenner. If this was not for people with too much disposable cash this would be £1000 tops. When you can buy a new optimist for £3000 keep it for 10 years and sell it for £700-1000 then this looks like pretty bad value. Basically a little bit faster because it is a little bit longer. Good news is you can pick up a 5 year old one of these rotting in some ones garden for about £200 if you are into this sort of thing. You wont win anything though as its hull underwater lines will be as bent as and 80s met cop. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/31/2018 at 11:52 PM, sunseeker said:

That article is the biggest load of self serving crap.

i thank god I never sailed an Opti, though I did have the misfortune of being around some Opti parents.

i wonder how many of those kids ever just go sailing, without a coach nearby. You know, just put the boat in the water by yourself and just go enjoy the experience of sailing. I think that would be a very interesting statistic to know.

Well my kids and the other Opti kids at our club did - most afternoons in summer. As you stated you have a very limited experience with Opti's or the families of those that sail them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now