• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Sign in to follow this  
By the lee

"Elitism"

Recommended Posts

This elitism post is garbage. Just another whiner asking for a hand out to build a sport that nobody other than the people that pay for it cares about. 

Let's be clear. Nobody gives a fuck about 2 billionaires suing eachother over a match race. 

Nobody gives a fuck about how many countries attended a Parent fuelled opti-worlds.

Nobody...and I mean nobody gives a fuck. 

If you wanna keep climbing/comparing the sailing/yacht ladder go ahead...but if you really want to compare it to real sports...and by real sports I mean all major leagues, golf and tennis, and the few Olympic sports that actually matter...you'd probably have to bring this tired refrain to another choir.

Edit: I forgot sports like XGames. They actually matter when talking about what a kid might think is cool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, fufkin said:

This elitism post is garbage. Just another whiner asking for a hand out to build a sport that nobody other than the people that pay for it cares about.

I think nobody hopes that sailing will be more success than baseball or soccer, but it can reach more people than a reduced set of millionaires.

Why don't you ask in France?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is that the problem? In the US you were building yacht clubs, while in Brit and Aus we were building sailing clubs? With no lead mines and whatever budget building could be managed, in the early days often by the members' own hands? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yacht Club is an unfortunate name for a group of people who like boats. Membership in a Yacht Club does not have to be expensive, especially when compared to the costs of other social or sports efforts, in fact, it is the cheapest way to have a place to keep your boat.

Not a fun enough place would be a valid criticism of lots of clubs but I disagree that the cost is a significant barrier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Quote

Where does a lot of sailing take place, yacht clubs. Where do regattas start and finish, yacht clubs. What is one of the most exclusive organizations next to country clubs, I’ll say it, yacht clubs. Who are they subsidized by, it’s members. Many purposely join just for the exclusivity, and there are some of those members that try to make clubs more inclusive, but let’s face it, most municipalities won’t subsidize the sport, because of that exclusivity. So most sailing programs cater only to the children of their members. As yacht club membership shrinks so does the interest in sailing.

Several inaccuracies in the above.

Yacht clubs are not exclusive. For every RYS or NYYC, there are many, many friendly, unpretentious local clubs that are very happy to welcome new members and don't cost an arm and a leg to belong to.

It's untrue that clubs don't benefit from public subsidies. Many (most?) clubs inhabit waterfront premises leased to them on attractive terms.

It's also untrue that clubs don't benefit the public. Most clubs' charters expressly oblige them to contribute to their communities. My own club is home to two sailing charities that assist the disabled and at-risk youth, and we regularly host regattas to raise money for good causes. Our junior sailing school, indeed all our educational programming, is open to non-members. This is quite typical.

Quote

Children today have more options than parents have time to filter them out. To be a parent these days is to be there for your child. It’s difficult to raise children, two parents are ideal, two incomes are ideal. So as families proceed through life they save for retirement, they save for college, they save for weddings, and family vacations to Disney, and they still don’t have enough.

Blah, blah, blah ... cry me a river. We all make choices and are responsible for establishing priorities.

maxresdefault.jpg

I don't see what his tedious whinge has to do with sailing, let alone "elitism". 

Quote

[T]he titans of the sailing industry should consider spending less money on cutting edge technology, and invest sustainable programs around our country so that just maybe when you ask a kid to go sailing he’ll bring is friend who just maybe your next foredeck guy.

It's so easy to spend other people's money!

Rather than lecturing others, or indulging in class warfare, Garry might better spend his own time and resources in personally involvement with a sailing charity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that there is a real concern regarding inexpensive access to water in the US, but maybe this is really a big metro area problem, where public access to water or low budget clubs that focus on sailing don't pencil out compared to a commercial development with a 60 year lease.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, JimC said:

Is that the problem? In the US you were building yacht clubs, while in Brit and Aus we were building sailing clubs? With no lead mines and whatever budget building could be managed, in the early days often by the members' own hands? 

Actually there are many many many volunteer sailing clubs in the U.S. and have been for over a century. Some are called sailing clubs, some are called yacht clubs, some even canoe clubs. My current club is called a yacht club. The dues just climbed past ten thousand pennies this year for the first time.

If you look at where dinghy sailing is active, including all across the midwest, there are many many volunteer clubs. They may say "yacht" but they are "sailing" by your measure of things. 

Some great dinghy regattas are hosted by old line "yacht" clubs. Some by volunteer clubs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, santaana said:

I think nobody hopes that sailing will be more success than baseball or soccer, but it can reach more people than a reduced set of millionaires.

Why don't you ask in France?

Because it's France 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Svanen said:

It's untrue that clubs don't benefit from public subsidies. Many (most?) clubs inhabit waterfront premises leased to them on attractive terms.

This is not correct.

I belong to two yacht clubs now, and belonged to a different one a number of years ago.

all three of these clubs own their property outright - they are not leasing it in any way.., nor do they even have mortgages on the property.

The clubs _pay_ property tax to the town at a rate equivalent to any other property owner in town. Because it is waterfront property, the assessed values are quite high. There is no subsidy of any sort. I think at one of my clubs, the property tax alone pushes $1000 per year per member...

Community sailing programs are often on public land.., but not private yacht clubs - at least not in my area

it's different in other countries though - i think in europe it's more common for clubs to operate on public land, and still be quasi-private clubs. A lot of the dinghy clubs operate this way, and that's part of the reason they are so inexpensive. The fancy clubs - Royal Yacht Squadron, for example - own their property.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Svanen said:

maxresdefault.jpg

I don't see what his tedious whinge has to do with sailing, let alone "elitism".

I adgree withe the babey.                                                                            :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, us7070 said:

This is not correct.

I belong to two yacht clubs now, and belonged to a different one a number of years ago.

all three of these clubs own their property outright - they are not leasing it in any way.., nor do they even have mortgages on the property.

The clubs _pay_ property tax to the town at a rate equivalent to any other property owner in town. Because it is waterfront property, the assessed values are quite high. There is no subsidy of any sort. I think at one of my clubs, the property tax alone pushes $1000 per year per member...

Community sailing programs are often on public land.., but not private yacht clubs - at least not in my area

it's different in other countries though - i think in europe it's more common for clubs to operate on public land, and still be quasi-private clubs. A lot of the dinghy clubs operate this way, and that's part of the reason they are so inexpensive. The fancy clubs - Royal Yacht Squadron, for example - own their property.

I suspect Svanen is painting with a narrow brush limited to his own local experience and may not realize the landscape is very different elsewhere, in particular up and down the east and west US seaboards.  Not sure what the impact is on other continents...

In the Greater Toronto area, there are 30+ yacht clubs, but there's only one I can think of that owns the land they sit on (Frenchman's Bay Yacht Club).  All others occupy sites owned and leased from assorted government entities.

Cheers!

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, CriticalPath said:

I suspect Svanen is painting with a narrow brush limited to his own local experience and may not realize the landscape is very different elsewhere, in particular up and down the east and west US seaboards.  Not sure what the impact is on other continents...

In the Greater Toronto area, there are 30+ yacht clubs, but there's only one I can think of that owns the land they sit on (Frenchman's Bay Yacht Club).  All others occupy sites owned and leased from assorted government entities.

Cheers!

 

As I indicated.., I know that outside the US leasing arrangements are more common...

but that by itself doesn't necessarily imply a subsidy - the question is whether the lease was at market rates when it was executed. The lease may be a benefit to the town, as it is a way to get revenue from land, without selling it, reducing the tax burden on residents.

The issue is further complicated by the fact that in some countries it's pretty common for private houses and commercial buildings to be sold without ownership of the underlying land.., which is leased on a long term basis. This is extremely unusual in the USA - basically trailer parks, and some apartment buildings in big cities.., but almost never for regular houses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I belong to three yacht clubs, all of which include non-members in their youth programs. That is one of the reasons that I belong to them. Admittedly, only one enrolls kids who could not otherwise afford to participate for free. But still, the programs are heavily subsidized. I did resign from one club when I found that the club was providing only token funding to its youth program, while pi**ing away money on loss-making F&B.

As far as leasing is concerned, two own their land and one leases. The leasing is expensive. There is no government subsidy.

Yes, there are a lot of municipal golf courses. The US Dept. of Defense is the largest operator of golf courses in the world. But the sport is on life support because youth programs are virtually non-existent as far as I can tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, F'g Dinosaur said:

Too funny.......Frenchman's Bay is beside the city shit factory and sits on reclaimed fecal matter.......what a joke.

your opinion would mean so much more had you launched your boat this season and spent more time on it than you did at the Crown and Beaver.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, F'g Dinosaur said:

Too funny.......Frenchman's Bay is beside the city shit factory and sits on reclaimed fecal matter.......what a joke.

Saw a great sign at the entrance to the Ashbridges Bay Treatment plant, “No dumping permitted” almost drove off the road laughing.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, basketcase said:

your opinion would mean so much more had you launched your boat this season and spent more time on it than you did at the Crown and Beaver.

David BProbable, back again. Dammit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Deed said:

David BProbable, back again. Dammit.

like a bad smell, or a dinosaur that hasn't found the tar pit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Yacht Club does not own any real estate, buildings, docks or anything that resembles them. We use local restaurants, pubs and halls for meetings. Or members houses. Yearly dues are $65-. $10- of that goes to marine conservation group. The local marinas and docks are all privately owned and operated. I keep my boat on a mooring buoy which I own, and tie to the dock during the winter months sometimes. 

In a quiet and pretty bay, does the guy on the mega yacht, enjoy his morning coffee on the aft deck, more than a guy on a regular boat. I encounter many of them on the most excellent summer cruises. Theo Foss is still the nicest of all old boats.

Unkle Krusty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Deed said:
8 hours ago, basketcase said:

your opinion would mean so much more had you launched your boat this season and spent more time on it than you did at the Crown and Beaver.

David BProbable, back again. Dammit.

Goode cache,  :) thack you.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, us7070 said:

it's different in other countries though - i think in europe it's more common for clubs to operate on public land, and still be quasi-private clubs. A lot of the dinghy clubs operate this way, and that's part of the reason they are so inexpensive. The fancy clubs - Royal Yacht Squadron, for example - own their property.

I don't know what the situation is in the rest of Europe but as far as the UK goes, most clubs, fancy or not,  own their premises and the ones that do not generally have private landlords. The term "public land" doesn't really mean much in the UK as large areas of land are publicly accessible but privately owned. The government or quasi-government bodies that own land will in general be required to seek a market rent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What bullshit  - we have several sailing clubs around here all catering for different needs. It is not elitism at all. There is my own wonderful Royal yacht Squadron, the second hand yacht club, the poker machine sailing club and the bogan wife beater dinghy club.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

What bullshit  - we have several sailing clubs around here all catering for different needs. It is not elitism at all. There is my own wonderful Royal yacht Squadron, the second hand yacht club, the poker machine sailing club and the bogan wife beater dinghy club.

Now thats funny.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this