Flotsamman

What goes wrong with opti sails?

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No stupid questions, just stupid people as the saying goes... anyway:

What is the difference between a new optisail and well used one? The sails are so teeny and the stresses relatively lower than any other sails, I can't imagine that much change with use.

And a follow up question, why aren't sails in a starter class like this, which would hopefully be economic, not be regulated sails under class rules to 1) be overbuilt and last a long time, or 2) cheap af & disposable to facilitate ease of access.

If you're already racing a slow af one design class why beat the ass with perfect expensive sails and not cheap shitty/overbuilt long lasting ones?

FFS, opti sails cost 200-600$, do ya'll like riding a sawzaw like a lover? 

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Only the best for "my kids" cuzz my kids are winners

Seriously if you cant afford a 600.00 sail for your 12 year old a few times a year you need to rethink your life and the choices you have made. 

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You can get a practice sail for $90 which I find wildly reasonable, or a high end racing sail for $600. Considering that that is the same price of a Laser sail for half the material I think it's a little silly. But, a lot of R&D, materials,production and labor, shipping across the globe, and other costs are tied in.  Having previously been a sailmaker and coach I get it. Sails stretch and age no matter what kind of boat they are, be it Opti, Laser, A-Cat or Farr 40. Find a products price bracket that works with you and go forward with it. Sailing aint cheap..

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10 minutes ago, Ross said:

You can get a practice sail for $90 which I find wildly reasonable, or a high end racing sail for $600. Considering that that is the same price of a Laser sail for half the material I think it's a little silly. But, a lot of R&D, materials,production and labor, shipping across the globe, and other costs are tied in.  Having previously been a sailmaker and coach I get it. Sails stretch and age no matter what kind of boat they are, be it Opti, Laser, A-Cat or Farr 40. Find a products price bracket that works with you and go forward with it. Sailing aint cheap..

Sailing ain't cheap, but it could be right? at least to start?

And why not regulate the class to only using sails of practice quality & price?

I understand that good opti sails are costly because They are better, but are they better in a way that matters in a shitbox onedesign?

I'd have my kids hoisting plastic bags if it was fun and worked.

Folks sail because its fun. folks don't sail because its expensive.   

Seeing as you where a sail maker do you think you could make an opti sail that over a long time of use didn't change much/wasn't at a disadvantage to a new sail of the same build?

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Stronger cloth would be heavier assuming dacron was used. All a matter of how cheap you can get materials. It's a supply and demand game. We're not exactly making pencils that go in every person's hand on the planet here. The rules would have to be consulted and changed the sail was to be spec'ed differently to allow for a more durable cloth and cut, but I think it could happen. It could happen, but you would have to have reasonably priced material, very cheap labor and the high demand to make a sail cheap.

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Look, aerodynamics matters in all boats at all times.
Deal with it.

You don't have to pay $600. But you do need a good shape that isn't stretched all to hell.

The sails are small enough that you can make them yourself if you want. Sheesh.

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EVERY kid, without exception, needs more practice. Practice until you can't practice anymore, then consider better sails.  

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1 hour ago, xonk1 said:

EVERY kid, without exception, needs more practice. Practice until you can't practice anymore, then consider better sails.  

I disagree with this. I lived what you preach--and got passed over and over upwind with bad sails.  Then I got to college and whadya know--level playing field and I'm moving right up the fleet!

Shitty sails don't go upwind. You can't learn anything useful from that--except to buy new sails.

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33 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I disagree with this. I lived what you preach--and got passed over and over upwind with bad sails.  Then I got to college and whadya know--level playing field and I'm moving right up the fleet!

Shitty sails don't go upwind. You can't learn anything useful from that--except to buy new sails.

150%! It's very hard to get anywhere well with a blown out bed sheet. That said, if you can't afford 100% brand new sails, someone's last season race sails will work wonders for your new sail. Many sailmakers sell a more durable practice sail at a cheaper price, or the ever popular Intensity practice sail which literally cost pennies.

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On 2/2/2018 at 8:51 PM, Ross said:

Stronger cloth would be heavier assuming dacron was used. All a matter of how cheap you can get materials. It's a supply and demand game. We're not exactly making pencils that go in every person's hand on the planet here. The rules would have to be consulted and changed the sail was to be spec'ed differently to allow for a more durable cloth and cut, but I think it could happen. It could happen, but you would have to have reasonably priced material, very cheap labor and the high demand to make a sail cheap.

This is easier to do with a SMOD class. Optimists are built all over the world and are sailed by a bunch of different weight kids, probably from 30kg through to 55kg in completely different weather conditions. Although there is only a 25kg weight spread it is almost a 100% difference between heaviest and lightest weights. This means that most reputable sailmakers are making 2 or 3 different cuts for different weight bands, the cloth also needs to be light enough so you can manipulate the shape to have a workable sail for any given weight for any wind condition. Moving to a cheaper, heavier cloth would make this almost impossible to do, favoring a narrow wight band helm for a particular set of conditions.

Saying  this, it would appear that once a certain make of sail does well at a world championships, then most of the top sailors from all over the world tend to move to that brand, making it easier for that sailmaker to raise their prices accordingly as there is a good chance they will continue to dominate as they have an almost monopolistic control over the potential regatta winners.

J sails would be a good example of this.

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In 1964 my Mom arranged a twenty Sail Optimist Pram purchase from Morgan sails. She was trying to use our changeover from cotton to Dacron as an opportunity to create a more truly one design Fleet. 

The purchase price was $21.50 per sail. This is easy to remember for me because Broderick Crawford on highway patrol drove #2150 and regularity said into his radio microphone, “2150 to headquarters.”

anyway, the decimal place  has moved. The pram sail didn’t have a batten but it was a little bit bigger and the material was definitely much heavier than today’s Opti sails. 

Mover fifty years later, it annoys / disappoints me We sailors have not figured out how to supply ourselves with very inexpensive and durable sails. 

 

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If you don't want to spend a lot then get a cheap sail... You can still race. Can't do that with a smod.

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We all get it: you need the best sails to win.  You can practice all year long in bedsheets, but my kid, who is also practicing all year long, will beat you with his new sails.

This is why my family owns 11 Opti sails.  And 14 C420 sails. And 13 J22 sails.  And brand new sails in every class we sail in.

You want to change the nature of the game in Optis?  Consider that the international Opti class gets $50 per Opti sail sold in the world.  Now go try and convince that class organization that they don’t need that money. 

Good luck.

 

and it’s not USODA, it’s the IODA

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On 03/02/2018 at 10:28 PM, xonk1 said:

EVERY kid, without exception, needs more practice. Practice until you can't practice anymore, then consider better sails.  

How much time do you think that the top international Oppy sailors spend on the water?

Cheers,

                 W.

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Reminds me of the time Luke Lawrence forgot his sail at a Laser Regatta. I loaned him my old beater sail and he went out and won every race in the regatta with it.

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On 2/3/2018 at 2:28 PM, xonk1 said:

EVERY kid, without exception, needs more practice. Practice until you can't practice anymore, then consider better sails.  

We have been invaded by Opti mums

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2 hours ago, Foxy said:

Reminds me of the time ------------   -----------  forgot his sail at a Laser Regatta. I loaned him my old beater sail and he went out and won every race in the regatta with it.

FIFY

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my kid is out there in his 3 year old beater practice sail placing 3rd or so, beating kids with sparkling, crisp, radial cut race sails. Pretty sure skill has more to do with it, but I still want to buy him a new sail. Any opinions? Seems like all of the class sails are $500 no matter where they come from. 

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On 3/5/2018 at 7:28 AM, Foxy said:

Reminds me of the time Luke Lawrence forgot his sail at a Laser Regatta. I loaned him my old beater sail and he went out and won every race in the regatta with it.

neither part of that statement surprised me... 

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There are only maybe 20 kids in the whole US who squeeze the last 5% of speed out of their sails. The most important part of choosing the sail is getting one for the appropriate weight range and tying it on properly.  Not all sails should be tied on the same way either.

That being said, as sails age they obviously get slower. Draft moves too far aft and the leech tapes shrink quite a bit, affecting the sails speed more so than degradation of the cloth.

The reality is that a kid with a new sail will beat an equally skilled kid with a tired sail of the same model. That's just the nature of equipment intensive sports.  

 

 

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I am using an old one as a shower curtain right now and it works pretty good for that.

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opti sail shower curtains? That will be a nice touch in my seaside AirBnB to go along with the fishing net wall hanging and seashell coffee table!

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I am using an old one as a shower curtain right now and it works pretty good for that.

Which make of Opti sails makes the best shower curtain?

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This one was competition approved, "1997 Olimpic Sails Italy". No longer has it's window. The kid  who had it later campaigned for the olympics ( didn't make the cut ) I found it nailed to a tree in his back yard. Now it keeps water off the bathroom floor.

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On 3/23/2018 at 3:12 PM, Major Tom said:

Which make of Opti sails makes the best shower curtain?

J sails, they have the least luff curve 

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