galacticair

Affordable racing tris vs. cats (<35ft)

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Question for the multihull racers here -- say you have good multi experience, want to race fast in medium/strong conditions,  and you're looking for an affordable second-hand fast tri/cat.  What boat would you recommend?   

This is both something I'm personally interested in (looking at boats in the US), but I'm also intrigued to learn how the answer varies internationally (NZ/AUS, Europe all have different pools of second-hand boats) -- that part is more pure window shopping, I don't see myself ever shipping internationally.

I'm assuming:

  • Accommodation not required -- dayboat is ok (though some marginal space for porta-potty / storage is nice to have)
  • Race in 12-30kts TWS (what we have here in the San Francisco Bay Area), moderate chop
  • <$50K (maybe $75K) second-hand
  • LOA <35ft (most likely 20-30ft at those prices)
  • No beachcats / supersized beachcats -- those are fun but hard to get friends/spouse onto in any conditions (i.e. no Nacra / Rolland 36; RC 27/30)
  • We have sufficient multi experience to keep a high-performance multi right side-up (you can ask me again in 5 years if that is true).  Have raced F-31R, Inter 20, and some 50ft+ racing cat/tris.

In the US I'd consider in the running: Multi 23, Stilleto 27, Viva 27 (like Cat Sass, Tyger Tyger), Reynolds 33, and Farriers/Corsairs (presumably F24, F27, Sprint 750, F28/F82, Dash 750 in that price range) - approximately in order of price.

  • I expect the Farriers/Corsairs would be the slowest of the lot (each $ spent on accommodation is one less $ spent on performance...).  Fairly easy to resell however, so potentially lower cost of ownership.  But I'd prefer something faster...
  • Multi 23 would be intriguing.  Cons are it's small LOA (yet still fast), and potentially weak mast and structural issues on unmodified boats. R2AK boat addressed all of these, but at a cost...  Hard to resell as less well-known and small.
  • Viva 27 is also intriguing.  Old 80s design, but still a rocket ship.  Likely faster than any of the boats above.  Flipped several times in windy conditions both in the Bay and PNW, so not for the faint-hearted.  Equally hard to resell as the Multi 23.
  • Reynolds 33 is probably the fastest, but too scary for the local conditions -- I've gone through all the SA threads discussing the capsizes etc.  But 16ft+ beam versions might work (would be similar beam to Viva 27) as it seems to have in Chicago-Mackinacs (Double Time), and as skipper you always have the option to reef early...
  • Stilleto 27 feels too old and slow vs. the above (except vs. Farriers/Corsairs), but I know less about them.  

What are your favorite boats among these, or others to add in the mix?  What else races faster than a Farrier/Corsair <$50-75K?

Internationally, I'd think the Granger Raiders and fast NZ 8.5+ multis (e.g .Timberwolf, Frantic Drift) would rank above any of the above.  Too far, alas!

Below are some good older threads comparing some of these options:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/47108-ls-32-v-r33-v-seacart/

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/184862-stiletto-vs-warrior-vs-viva/

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Reynolds 33 with 16ft beams cost over $125k but can be bought for under $40k, not because they are at fault but because they get a bad rap from the 14ft wide models. The x beams with the multi level positioning is brilliant, allowing lighter beams and are extremely stiff.

At a phrf of approx -65 they are reported to be able to beat formula 40s in most conditions. The rudders and daggerboards are over the top. The rigs are massive and it takes under two hours to assemble.

I have owned a f40, 36 Nacra, Stiletto 27, C class 25, Rudy Chow 36, Seawind 24, and there is nothing bang for the buck that can out sail a Reynolds.

Two of the berths are comfortable, two are a little small

Ps,  buying a used fresh water one is a bonus 

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31 minutes ago, multihuler said:

Reynolds 33 with 16ft beams cost over $125k but can be bought for under $40k, not because they are at fault but because they get a bad rap from the 14ft wide models. The x beams with the multi level positioning is brilliant, allowing lighter beams and are extremely stiff.

At a phrf of approx -65 they are reported to be able to beat formula 40s in most conditions. The rudders and daggerboards are over the top. The rigs are massive and it takes under two hours to assemble.

I have owned a f40, 36 Nacra, Stiletto 27, C class 25, Rudy Chow 36, Seawind 24, and there is nothing bang for the buck that can out sail a Reynolds.

Two of the berths are comfortable, two are a little small and if you never felt the comfort of a Reynolds back rest you are in for a suprise

Ps,  buying a used fresh water one is a bonus 

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SeaCart 30 must be the boat to have here - but they keep theirs value rather wells dont they? 

Different racing versions of Farrier may also be up there...  

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What you really want is Shadow (1987 formula 40) which is for sale in SF. But it is both longer and more expensive than you want to pay.  Given your experience, I'd stay away from the F24s, 750s, Dash; I raced an F24 and it is a dog in breeze less than 10 kts. (lots of bay races have dead or near dead air).  You didn't mention the Multi23s brother, the Diam24.  You will spend a lot of time mounting and demounting either of them, though.  You ought to take a walk in Richmond marina...lots of fast boats just sitting there; maybe find one that fits.  I also think Antrim's Erin (30 foot tri) might be for sale.

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7 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

  I also think Antrim's Erin (30 foot tri) might be for sale.

I looked at Erin to buy and sailed her, but discovered some flaws and walked. She is not a light air boat and handles heavy air just fine but she steers like a semi truck and gets into irons easily. Something regarding daggerboard/mast placement. A fella from Santa Cruz bought her and snapped the carbon mast going to Santa Cruz. Might be able to get her for a reduced price now!

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There are some older F31s in your price range.  Most out of the bay area tho.  Nice thing about trailerable boats is they can be fetched easily.  

I will say that racing multis in the bay is fun.  Unless you are in a Weta, no one designs so it is best to get a design that the rating committee has some experience with, though.  That way you can be somewhat assured that your rating will be fair.  F31 is a good choice. 

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You can have this 11 metre tri foiler for nothing ... it is damaged ... but no problem for someone with repair skills. I have too many boats.

grouchomotionscreek.jpg

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Thanks everyone for the quick thoughts -- I've thought about all those boats and more or less eliminated them for various reasons (which may be wrong).

9 hours ago, Dead air said:

Why wouldn't you shop off shore,  lots of boat leaving NZ at the moment

Primarily the hassle of exponentially harder logistics - job & life in general make it hard to arrange the transport.  Though PearShapperRacing certainly did a great job moving Dragon to PNW...  I'd rather a boat I could start sailing right away.

 

2 hours ago, MultiThom said:

What you really want is Shadow (1987 formula 40) which is for sale in SF. But it is both longer and more expensive than you want to pay.  Given your experience, I'd stay away from the F24s, 750s, Dash; I raced an F24 and it is a dog in breeze less than 10 kts. (lots of bay races have dead or near dead air).  You didn't mention the Multi23s brother, the Diam24.  You will spend a lot of time mounting and demounting either of them, though.  You ought to take a walk in Richmond marina...lots of fast boats just sitting there; maybe find one that fits.  I also think Antrim's Erin (30 foot tri) might be for sale.

Yes, if budget was 2-3x, then F40, M32 or SeaCart would all start to get on the radar.  But then what I'd really want is Afterburner -- it's a steal based on the ad I still see posted, until you realize how much berthing & a new suit of sails will cost on that 82ft mast... (not to mention repairs for things that invariably break)

 

21 minutes ago, Grateful ED said:

Gougeon 32 cat might fit the bill too. I think Jan Gougeon's Pocket Rocket recently went up for sale in BC 

https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/van/boa/d/gougeon-32-g32-catamaran-for/6472075385.html

Great boat, easy to sail and trim for conditions, plus a self-righting system just in case ;) 

G32 definitely impressed me in R2AK, and it's a sure looker. Seems awesome in flat waters, but the 8.5 ft beam has got to be scary in SF Bay winds (even with water-ballast).  I remember Russell posted the boat is very "tender", which I take it to mean she's low on righting momentum... (as you would expect from the specs).  At that point I'd rather go wide-beam Reynolds 33 and reef early...
 

1 hour ago, MultiThom said:

There are some older F31s in your price range.  Most out of the bay area tho.  Nice thing about trailerable boats is they can be fetched easily.  

I will say that racing multis in the bay is fun.  Unless you are in a Weta, no one designs so it is best to get a design that the rating committee has some experience with, though.  That way you can be somewhat assured that your rating will be fair.  F31 is a good choice. 

F31s are definitely great boats -- I've sailed a lot on them.  The F31R can really move.  But my heart is in something faster (and cheaper)...  I know, it's asking for a lot!

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1 hour ago, Groucho Marx said:

You can have this 11 metre tri foiler for nothing ... it is damaged ... but no problem for someone with repair skills. I have too many boats.

grouchomotionscreek.jpg

Ive always wanted to go for a blat on that. Not own her, just go for a sail.  Whats damaged?

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The Grainger Raider 30ft cat is another option. Way more fun than any farrier ever will be. 

Not sure how many in the states but can be shipped from Aus in a container easily enough. 

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I've been lucky enough to race on just about every boat mentioned and owned a multi 23 for several years.  If I had to pick an all around racer for sf bay and ocean I'd be hard pressed to do better than an f-31r or perhaps an f-25c.  The multi 23  is certainly quick off the wind in up to about 20 kts but is too light to be pushed really hard in rough conditions and doesn't much care for going to weather in any kind of slop.  It has several other drawbacks, especially it's tendency to break in the middle of the ocean.  I've also spent many happy hours on r33s and love them tremendously but I can assure you that in typical sf bay conditions an f-31r or the like will prove almost as fast, sometimes faster and always much easier to handle.  Even with a 16 or 17 foot beam the r33 requires lots of attention and though it can be quite deadly in light air you lose that advantage when it starts blowing.  Seacarts are amazing but hard to come by and hard to store.  I got to race on and against the nacra 36 and for pure, fast sailing fun it is awful hard to beat.  I've watched the M32 scorch past me and that certainly looked quite nasty!

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it's a shame the Lock Crowther designed Shockwave "Nice Pair" isn't still for sale.... it was a steel

Buy Afterburner.... 

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2 hours ago, Clipper said:

Ive always wanted to go for a blat on that. Not own her, just go for a sail.  Whats damaged?

In the last savage lee shore storm Groucho tore out its mooring (like a number of boats in the bay) and went way up on the rocky terrace nearby with one float hooked up in quite high pohutukawa branches - and the main hull bashing against the concrete ramp. So the after section is split below WL. Also one foil and half one float got torn off. I think it is really burial time and have bought an electric chain saw ... but stupidly holding fire at moment. Will come to my senses later. However it could be repaired - but not by me. I'm holding on to the undamaged wing mast and expensive main sail - but the rest is going for zero.

This boat if intact, Mundt, ha, would eat any Farrier for breakfast.

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There are lots of boats, including my current tri, that can beat f-boats in certain conditions.  But in my experience the F-boats are very good at many things including going fast in most conditions and holding their value.  I really admire your work a lot Mr. Marx.  I still think it will be a few more years before foilers work as durable, dependable ocean boats.  I must say though, that frolicking on my tri with some kitefoilers yesterday I was convinced that they are the easiest, cheapest, funnest. fastest way to sail.

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In SA classified there is 2 suitable boats - the F82R - if its stripped for all extra weight should be fast - and the 9m Grainger - is the sort of fast boat you can get for that money - just a minor sea between... 

 

 

 

 

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There is nothing wrong with Farriers and for many reasons they are the smart money, but sailing phrf of 0 is not the same sport as -50 or lower.  The costs associated with -50 or lower are much greater, except for the Reynolds 33,. I never cared for them as i thought the beams looked funny, narrow overall and too expensive. After sailing one i would bet money it is the best high performance catamaran ever built, (in the US), the cats are almost free (Due to the huge depreciation, caused by the 14ft beam), and the parts are reasonable.

I do like a Gougeon 32 for solo sailing.

 

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I went and looked at that G-32. Had some issues (the typical gelcoat popping off all over), the jib is an old dacron thing, "yankee" and second main was not on board. The accommodation is about like a decent size dome tent with a tiny sink (about 2 quarts), a spot for a stove. Strings everywhere so if you like to pull strings, this is the boat for you! Haven't decided if I will make an offer on it yet. My family circumstances might make it non-viable. It's a very niche boat. Gives up a lot so it can be trailerable basically.

Yes, they are tender and need to be sailed carefully.

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I agree that in the right hands the R33 is a truly magnificent weapon!  You might call Randy Reynolds and ask about different beam options. 

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Another one who agrees... If best boat speed per $ for a US based boat under $50K USD is the question (and a foiling "beach" cat is a no go), I gotta agree with Multihuler (edit to add and Mundt) that a Reynolds 33 is the answer.

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There are two Reynolds 33s for sale on craigslist, one is Randy's and one is my friends. One is 16ft, one is 14ft wide, $39,500 and $60k. buying one from Randy would be a prize if you got to sail with him! He is bad ass.

I guess on that note i will have to buy an ad.

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I am totally biased, G32 was wonderful all around fun.  It is as tender as you want it to be.  The R33 is excellent but it is time consuming to set up, same for the Roland 36.  Used ones of any of these are bargains.  Good luck.

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1 hour ago, mundt said:

the xs 35 on craigslist (L.A.) is an absolutely astonishing missile.

Yea but that is $139K.  Sort of a whole different ballgame/price range.  Even the $60K R33 is likely going to sit for a while.

Think Multihuler is more realistic at $39K for his.  Fair deal if its in good shape and I think he had a trailer for that price too. Galactic ought to talk to him (no vested interest).

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I wonder what they want for the Grainger Trimaran "Time Machine?" http://sailinganarchy.com/classifieds/show-ad/?id=3446

That looks like a weapon to me, though the main hull is a bit short. Probably a good bit cheaper than the Seacart 30 but the one advantage the SC30 has over almost anything else (including the R33) is its offshore capability.

The other weapon of a boat that I'd love to get my hands on is an SL33 pimped with the TNZ full lifting boards...40kts capable, C-boards back in for a more pedantic ride...no cabin though so fails to meet the O.P's requirement.

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I dont like the R33 - its kind of buildt like a cheap boat - alu- grp? - no carbon - no racks to optimize the RM - heavy but narrow - but its trying to be a racer.  Think the 39K$ is more realistic yes. 139k$ for the R35 - that could be close to a SC30? 

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At 3000 lbs a r33 is not that heavy, at 700sq ft of sail to weather ( with a small jib) she has a great weight to hp ratio, add a 600 sq ft screecher or a 1100 assy spinnaker and you have a serious contender. I promise to stop pitching the R33 but there isn't another boat that can be bought at that price boat that sleeps 4, fits on a telescoping trailer in two hours and sails at -65.

The PS, on my bucket list is to WIN the r2ak, i would be interested in setting up the r33 for the race if i found the right crew, but the crew would need to be very, very, very serious, the race is not cheap.

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Thanks everyone for the thoughts.  It's a good discussion (and a nice change from comparing the >$150K rocket ships that we all like to see pictures of, but realistically can't afford, and certainly cannot afford to capsize / dismast, a-la M32).

Multihuler - you never said, what's your R33 mast height?  (they seem to vary a lot -- 45, 48ft...)  Are you pretty sure of the 3000 lbs weight, and is that sailing weight or light weight (no sails, etc).  I've seen 2,250 to 3,000 mentioned in different sources.  Mast height and weight obviously make a big difference in how tender the boat is.

Any one want to venture opinions on the Viva 27 (Cat Sass, Tyger Tyger)?  More affordable than R33 though older.  Beam/Length ratio and SA/D are closer to your typical race cat (either a 16 or 18ft beam, depending on the source; and boat is older so proportionately heavier than an R33) -- though the mast certainly is proportionately as high or higher than an R33 (~44-45ft on Cat Sass based on old ratings).  Has pitchpoled a few times -- that tall mast will do that to you, I'm sure.  But once you reef, the B/L ratio and displacement should give you a bit more response time than on a R33... 

I would have said R33 is too extreme for R2AK, but Team Mad Dog Racing (M32) clearly proved that isn't the case, if you sail conservatively...  Not on my to-do list anytime soon however.

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R33 vs M32 - in R2AK- maybe similar scary - but then the M32 is much faster than all mentioned -also the SC30 when the conditions are light or moderate.

As all other winner has showed a fast tri is the answer. 

 

 

For the Frisco Bay - with strong/scary conditions I think a tri is also the best answer here; easier to sail in strong and shifting conditions- more stability and easier to react.

But for the price - its an older modified tri - some of them already mentioned.

 

By the way.. we have a R33 thats going to be raced here next summer - so we will see how it does against my 35ft 1300kg tri.

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Luck is very important in the r2ak, and yes, Mad dog was not only a incredible boat/ team, but luck was on their side, after the race they broke their mast in San Francisco.

The skill level in the r2ak is off the charts, which makes it an incredible race, but it is biased to the fastest boats. Mad dog was -100 or so, but Nice Pair still owns the record to Victoria, yes, some luck was involved.

M32s are not only wicked expensive to buy, they are wicked expensive to fix. There are no beds and are only 40 seconds a mile faster, alot for a day sailor, but when it is time to sleep, not so much. $200k /$40k used.

As far as trimaran being safer, yes the extra ama works like a governer, but a phrf of 15 or even 0 is a long way from -65.  Bring the skill level to the table and a r33 can allow you to play with the big boys at a fraction of the cost.  The Antrim 40 trimaran has a phrf of -65 but it cost $600k to build.

Want to have fun and call it safe? The F27 in Susanville looks brand new and under $40k, (not my boat).

It is hard to see god under phrf -50, but not impossible.

Here comes the PS, 

I prefer trimarans, but you will not beat the r33 for speed/$/thrill

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, multihuler said:

Luck is very important in the r2ak, and yes, Mad dog was not only a incredible boat/ team, but luck was on their side, after the race they broke their mast in San Francisco.

As far as trimaran being safer, yes the extra ama works like a governer, but a phrf of 15 or even 0 is a long way from -65.  Bring the skill level to the table and a r33 can allow you to play with the big boys at a fraction of the cost.  The Antrim 40 trimaran has a phrf of -65 but it cost $600k to build.

I prefer trimarans, but you will not beat the r33 for speed/$/thrill

 

 

 

The R33 was not cheap new either - now used the 39K$ is reasonable - my boat is also somewhere round that figure - its 25years old. It sleeps 5 - is lighter than tha R33 amd has more sail and more stability - its a race for that money to speed/trill. For touring its rather good too. 

 

And its more of them - old fast tris that someone has used tons of money on - ref. the Grainger - electric canting carbon mast - new C-foils, bows, centerboard, and rudders - its a lot work and money - and that boat is faster than R33. 

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Not in the US,

, Mama tried was around $80k and she is outrageous, but a r33 will wax her. I would rather own her than the r33 but not at twice the price.

I would love to see more pictures of your boat and see a price, Dragonfly just came to Canada and she looks like a hoot, we will see her in the r2ak 2019

 

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3 hours ago, multihuler said:

As far as trimaran being safer, yes the extra ama works like a governer, but a phrf of 15 or even 0 is a long way from -65.  Bring the skill level to the table and a r33 can allow you to play with the big boys at a fraction of the cost.  The Antrim 40 trimaran has a phrf of -65 but it cost $600k to build.

It's probably the vaka that works like the governor...that's the hull that is always dragging (at least until you get into the 65 foot range with big foils).  Yes, a quibble; sorry.  I admit to preferring tris; but I sail for fun and the occasional thrill.  I tried a cat (a slow one) but never could relax when sailing solo; hence I bought another tri.  The wind is typically gusty and shifty and in the 20s in the Carquinez...great fun on a tri, scary on a cat.

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Every boat has advantages in different wind speeds and i would love to hear about your experience with Mama tried but when i raced against her with Nice Pair she was faster than me but not by much.

I am sure to get the most out of a r33 you have to fly a hull, so a certain skill level is mandatory. What is mamas rating?

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just for giggles I looked up the ORCA ratings on a few boats in the 30ish range.  Remember, ORCA ratings are based on accumulated real world data from ocean racing in southern Cali.  in a variety of conditions.  The skill of skippers and crew is a factor as is luck. 

Mama Tried = -70

Fastest R33 with Randy driving = -114

Viva 27 = -17

F32SRX = -97

my Multi 23 = -25

Multi 23 with better skipper = -35

Seacart 30 = -98

F31R = -41

I tend to think these ratings are pretty reasonable because they are based on lots of real data, the biggest variable being skill.  For example, you won't beat Randy Reynolds driving his super turboed R33 with experienced crew, especially in light air.  You won't touch Pete Melvin driving Mama Tried.  Kind of like the fat old guy sitting in his Lazy Boy drinking a 40 oz.  thinking he could handle Lebron...

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How is that "super turbo R33" ? Lighter, wider, more sail? And how is the skipper of the SC30? Guess that is close to std - for a SeaCart...

 

At 28ft Mama Tried the R33 should have an advantage... but how does sail areal, weight and rm compare? 

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the super turboed r 33 has ridiculous sail area and very tall mast with a horribly skillful pilot and very experienced crew.  The Seacart is being handled by very experienced ocean racers.  Though I'm the farthest thing from being a naval architect the waterline difference between Mama and an R33 probably isn't such a big factor, in my experience it's the power/weight ratio that is most important and of course one's ability to control the power, in which case I feel like the trimaran is always going to have the advantage. 

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On 4.2.2018 at 10:53 AM, galacticair said:

 

  • Accommodation not required -- dayboat is ok (though some marginal space for porta-potty / storage is nice to have)
  • Race in 12-30kts TWS (what we have here in the San Francisco Bay Area), moderate chop
  • <$50K (maybe $75K) second-hand
  • LOA <35ft (most likely 20-30ft at those prices)
  • No beachcats / supersized beachcats -- those are fun but hard to get friends/spouse onto in any conditions (i.e. no Nacra / Rolland 36; RC 27/30)
  • We have sufficient multi experience to keep a high-performance multi right side-up (you can ask me again in 5 years if that is true).  Have raced F-31R, Inter 20, and some 50ft+ racing cat/tris.

 

I bought an old seacart 15 months ago and I believe she wonderfully meets your expectations. Except budget.

Though I sail off the German Baltic coast. Can be choppy but not like your place. 

Had no idea sailing a boat could make one so happy!

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14 minutes ago, Kalimotxo said:

I bought an old seacart 15 months ago and I believe she wonderfully meets your expectations. Except budget.

Though I sail off the German Baltic coast. Can be choppy but not like your place. 

Had no idea sailing a boat could make one so happy!

Can I ask about the price? - and where you got it from? 

 

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4 minutes ago, SeaGul said:

Can I ask about the price? - and where you got it from? 

 

90.000 euros - from a messy divorce settlement. Had no nerve to negotiate. Did need a lick of paint. sails were splendid.

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1 hour ago, mundt said:

just for giggles I looked up the ORCA ratings on a few boats in the 30ish range.  Remember, ORCA ratings are based on accumulated real world data from ocean racing in southern Cali.  in a variety of conditions.  The skill of skippers and crew is a factor as is luck.

... these ratings are pretty reasonable because they are based on lots of real data, the biggest variable being skill.  For example, you won't beat Randy Reynolds driving his super turboed R33 with experienced crew, especially in light air.  You won't touch Pete Melvin driving Mama Tried.  Kind of like the fat old guy sitting in his Lazy Boy drinking a 40 oz.  thinking he could handle Lebron...

Concur that ORCA has a decent rating system that is designed to get people out racing.  In an amateur sport, folks deserve a chance to get better and still look forward to playing.  Personally,  I use the basic AU formula (omitting all the tweaks that make it hard) to determine a GOOD GUESS which boat could be faster.  It is a variation on SA/D and I use internet published numbers so no weighing or other excrement.  All measurements in meters/kgs  (Take Length to the 0.3 power multiplied by the total sail area (including downwind sail) to the 0.4 power) Divided by (weight in kg plus weight of crew) to the 0.325 power.   Faster boat will be the one with the largest number.  All the tweaks that Texel and AU use are to adjust for different wing sails/high aspect ratio sails...yadda yadda.  Not worth my time/effort since (as ORCA knows) skippers do make a difference. 

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12 hours ago, multihuler said:

Not in the US,

, Mama tried was around $80k and she is outrageous, but a r33 will wax her. I would rather own her than the r33 but not at twice the price.

I would love to see more pictures of your boat and see a price, Dragonfly just came to Canada and she looks like a hoot, we will see her in the r2ak 2019

 

You mean Dragon, not Dragonfly?

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Yes, sorry.

I would love to sail against her and she will be the boat to beat in the r2ak.

I am looking for crew on one of my boats, but it is a lot of work and the grandchild arrives in June..  nothing trumps a new baby!

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11 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Personally,  I use the basic AU formula (omitting all the tweaks that make it hard) to determine a GOOD GUESS which boat could be faster.  It is a variation on SA/D and I use internet published numbers so no weighing or other excrement.  All measurements in meters/kgs  (Take Length to the 0.3 power multiplied by the total sail area (including downwind sail) to the 0.4 power) Divided by (weight in kg plus weight of crew) to the 0.325 power.   Faster boat will be the one with the largest number.  All the tweaks that Texel and AU use are to adjust for different wing sails/high aspect ratio sails...yadda yadda.  Not worth my time/effort since (as ORCA knows) skippers do make a difference. 

I also spend a fair time playing with OMR, Texal and similar formula-based rating systems to evaluate relative boat speeds.  However, I've never quite understood why the rating systems never account for beam, given how important righting moment is to sail-carrying capacity on a multi. 

For example, a M32 has a crazy high SA/D, as do SL33s, D-class, etc.  In contrast the R33 is fairly pedestrian -- until you start factoring in beam...  Arguably in stable conditions the lower righting moment may be an advantage to lift the windward hull earlier, but the moment it gets windy it's hard to ignore that more beam = more power.  Thus why Mama Tried, Seacart 30 and other tris perform so well despite a lower SA/D than a R33 (which translates into the tris having significantly slower TCF ratings in OMR, but the cats having a harder time sailing to their rating).

This thread has been very insightful.  Thanks everyone for your contributions!  (and since this is SA, your civility)

Still unsure what to make of all the great input -- if in Socal or another light wind area, definitely R33 or Multi 23 would provide a great bank for the buck, for well under $50K, and I wouldn't over-think it.  Pick your level of adrenaline rush...  However in the SF Bay, it still feels like a bigger tri would be the better answer, but then the budget goes up 50% for an F82R, and more for a F31.  More mulling over required!

 

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12 hours ago, Kalimotxo said:

90.000 euros - from a messy divorce settlement. Had no nerve to negotiate. Did need a lick of paint. sails were splendid.

Lucky you, that sounds like a bargain for that boat, and more so with good sails.  I'm assuming this was a Seacart 30, not 26...

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14 minutes ago, galacticair said:

I also spend a fair time playing with OMR, Texal and similar formula-based rating systems to evaluate relative boat speeds.  However, I've never quite understood why the rating systems never account for beam, given how important righting moment is to sail-carrying capacity on a multi. 

For example, a M32 has a crazy high SA/D, as do SL33s, D-class, etc.  In contrast the R33 is fairly pedestrian -- until you start factoring in beam...  Arguably in stable conditions the lower righting moment may be an advantage to lift the windward hull earlier, but the moment it gets windy it's hard to ignore that more beam = more power.  Thus why Mama Tried, Seacart 30 and other tris perform so well despite a lower SA/D than a R33 (which translates into the tris having significantly slower TCF ratings in OMR, but the cats having a harder time sailing to their rating).

R33 narrow version - seem like a good idea - to easy get up on one hull - but then in a narrow cat - its a very short line before it gets over. In a tri that sail on one hull - ref. SC30 - it so much wider that it give you time to react. 

And the trim-factor - you can put the crew on different palces - to trim the boat to sail on one hull even in lighter winds, so you dont have to be narrow - but light. Light is the factor that R33 lacks - the M32 and SC30 has that - and some other well buildt boats.  The Marstrøm boats also has the stiffness and building quality to make the the ultimate weapon for those who can handle it.

And a tri has so many more trim possibilities with the main hull and the wide beam - and a decent cabin - so they have a value when not raced too. 

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How bout this, faster than a sea cart 30,  4 bunks, reliable , safe little cat, has not tipped.  Fits in a normal marina berth.  Possibly could be for sale for a far cheaper price than anything comparable for the same speed.  In nz thou.

CE56A7DF-3D55-444C-8A6E-B760497E3654.jpeg

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1 hour ago, galacticair said:

Lucky you, that sounds like a bargain for that boat, and more so with good sails.  I'm assuming this was a Seacart 30, not 26...

I know. Yes 30 feet and I did spend more money this winter. You can even take her cruising for a few days and she reacts with swedish composure. 

The boat that is. The ladyfriend less so.

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33 minutes ago, Kalimotxo said:

I know. Yes 30 feet and I did spend more money this winter. You can even take her cruising for a few days and she reacts with swedish composure. 

The boat that is. The ladyfriend less so.

You got a gem for a reasonable price - take a trip up the swedish west coast for some more salty water- and up the Oslo fjord - some nice races to attend in mid august.... 

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40 minutes ago, ShaneBell said:

How bout this, faster than a sea cart 30,  4 bunks, reliable , safe little cat, has not tipped.  Fits in a normal marina berth.  Possibly could be for sale for a far cheaper price than anything comparable for the same speed.  In nz thou.

 

9F27821C-1F3A-461D-AC19-9369A0541A4C.jpeg

Some data would be nice - so the "experts" can judge it and finally conclude.... looks right - but its not a tri...

 

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That breathed on Formula 28 is very. very quick, Name is Charleston. And it has gone exceptionally well in Auckland/Russell Coastal Classic. I don't know these guys but have watched them go giant killing. On another note; that stern is fugly

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If its a F28 its not suitable for Frisco Bay og R2AK - too extreme. A M32 is probably much better choice for both with its easier handling.

 

We had at least 3 F28s here some years ago - and 2 tris was designed and buildt here - one of them was a World Champion (XOZ Per Ferskaug) - later they all was sold to sweden - and I think they still race there.

http://www.luxuryatch.com/1994-multiboat-trimaran-f28/

In fact it seems like XOZ  was used to test out some concept for the SeaCart 30 project - later Per Ferskaug raced a SC30 to succes. 

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Hey @samc99us - Its a great thread that doesn't deserve to be derailed so I don't understand the motivation for your comment.  While I have nothing other than a casual association with both owners you backed your bus up over for no reason... simply put your comments are not fair; maybe delete them.

17 hours ago, Kalimotxo said:

90.000 euros - from a messy divorce settlement. Had no nerve to negotiate. Did need a lick of paint. sails were splendid.

Great deal!  That's just over $100K USD.  Nice!!

5 hours ago, galacticair said:

Still unsure what to make of all the great input -- if in Socal or another light wind area, definitely R33 or Multi 23 would provide a great bank for the buck, for well under $50K, and I wouldn't over-think it.  Pick your level of adrenaline rush...  However in the SF Bay, it still feels like a bigger tri would be the better answer, but then the budget goes up 50% for an F82R, and more for a F31.  More mulling over required!

 

I am an R33 fan (for light air environment bang for the buck) so agree with you above.  Seems most here do.  That said I'm not sure I would walk away from a great deal on a Multi 23 just cause I was in San Fran breeze.  Problem is none of the tris mentioned - not the Multi or the F82 or 31 are going to be as responsive as what you seem to want.  They are all great boats for what they do but it sounds like you want a SeaCart 30.  Alas they can't be had for $50K and other than Kalimotxo not even for double that.  Good luck!!

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I beat a multi 23 boat for boat in probably 7 out of 10 races with my F-27. That varied from point to point racing, around the cans, lots of chop, to smooth water. Not particularly impressed. Why is the F-25C not on the list here. Those things are wicked fast and should be relatively cheap purchase/operate. 

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15 minutes ago, Wess said:

Hey @samc99us - Its a great thread that doesn't deserve to be derailed so I don't understand the motivation for your comment.  While I have nothing other than a casual association with both owners you backed your bus up over for no reason... simply put your comments are not fair; maybe delete them.

Great deal!  That's just over $100K USD.  Nice!!

I am an R33 fan (for light air environment bang for the buck) so agree with you above.  Seems most here do.  That said I'm not sure I would walk away from a great deal on a Multi 23 just cause I was in San Fran breeze.  Problem is none of the tris mentioned - not the Multi or the F82 or 31 are going to be as responsive as what you seem to want.  They are all great boats for what they do but it sounds like you want a SeaCart 30.  Alas they can't be had for $50K and other than Kalimotxo not even for double that.  Good luck!!

Miss Mizzmo and I love the R33 owners, but I think they would be the first to admit that they dont sail that boat to its potential. They seem to have more fun than just about anybody on the bay though. I will pile on another reccomendation for the R33, we seriously considered buying one, but with two kids under 3 the extra accomodations of the F-27 won out. Its also a great boat for hosting the dock party as well, like a floating lounge. 

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Hey @Mizzmo -

I can't imagine why you would make such a foolish decision to buy an F27, LOL.  :lol:  I still think its the best overall bang for the buck of any boat ever.

The F25C can be pricey, no (?) and wow the build quality did vary a lot.  I will stay out of the SamC comment other than to say we disagree and his cheap shot was apparently aimed at the other owner.  Didn't know you had looked at purchasing the R33 as we did as well.  Nice boat at the right price for our location.  Might be down your way this weekend.  Hope all is well with your clan.  Bit nutso up here.

Cheers,

Wess

PS - Want to go halvies on a $100K SeaCart 30!?

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17 hours ago, samc99us said:

Local Reynolds 33 rarely manages to stay upright, but at least the one time the crew were stepping aboard 2 out of 4 had/have very little multihull experience. Its funny how the fastest multihull sailors on the bay rarely get called up to race the bigger cats/tris. Of course the local SC30 is generally raced by experienced offshore sailors and manages to stay upright and fast at the same time...that points pretty clearly to trimarans as the answer for most people.

Finding a used SC30 for under $100k is a big ask, and the boat must be kept out of the water because of the honeycomb core.

The F82R in the classifieds looks like a pretty nice weapon for the price distance (relatively speaking). Something in that category is probably on my radar screen eventually for the option to race plus go camping with the family for the weekend.

I think tThe R33 you're referring to is basically no more - it dragged an anchor during a storm and got holed badly, insurance write-off, and bought back from salvage for a project.  Not sure if it will see water again soon.  There is another R-33 on the Bay that races CMA - it's the wide beam with short rig.  It stays upright and seems to be a really very nice boat - races in Multihull A Fleet mixing it up with the F-31s and Triple Threat.  Maybe not the fastest on the water in that config but for all-around it's a great package.  The SC30 was donated to St Marys sailing team and occasionally shows up in races crewed by the college kids and sometimes the original owner I believe.

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52 minutes ago, kbcH20 said:

I think tThe R33 you're referring to is basically no more - it dragged an anchor during a storm and got holed badly, insurance write-off, and bought back from salvage for a project.  Not sure if it will see water again soon.  There is another R-33 on the Bay that races CMA - it's the wide beam with short rig.  It stays upright and seems to be a really very nice boat - races in Multihull A Fleet mixing it up with the F-31s and Triple Threat.  Maybe not the fastest on the water in that config but for all-around it's a great package.  The SC30 was donated to St Marys sailing team and occasionally shows up in races crewed by the college kids and sometimes the original owner I believe.

I was talking about the dragged super R33, not the boat with wide beam and manageable shorter rig.

@Wess, I was making an observation that the tall rig, narrow R33 when sailed with inexperienced crew can be a recipe for disaster. It is not a boat I would advise for SF Bay, even in the hands of the OP who is clearly experienced, unless he has a crew of rock stars at his disposal. If my comments further offended, I apologize, but this being SA the edit button is no longer an option.

I also stand by my SC30 comments, as others have said that is what the O.P is looking for but unfortunately they usually aren't in the budget. That is one of the big reasons the NZ boats like Mama Tried are getting imported to the U.S, higher bang for buck ratio.

 

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2 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

I beat a multi 23 boat for boat in probably 7 out of 10 races with my F-27. That varied from point to point racing, around the cans, lots of chop, to smooth water. Not particularly impressed. Why is the F-25C not on the list here. Those things are wicked fast and should be relatively cheap purchase/operate. 

Interesting, we have generally raced boat for boat with the F-31's & F-85SR in day racing, they tend to be quicker upwind and we are faster downwind, our ratings are pretty close so it's close on corrected time too. Never even been close getting beat boat for boat by an f-27, having said that we optimized our M23 and it has a bigger kite. 

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10 hours ago, multihuler said:

Yes, sorry.

I would love to sail against her and she will be the boat to beat in the r2ak.

I am looking for crew on one of my boats, but it is a lot of work and the grandchild arrives in June..  nothing trumps a new baby!

getPart-225.jpeg

Tell me you aren't putting sweeps on the bow.

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I'm in a similar situation to the OP but looking for something with more accommodation and willing to trade some speed. Have you looked for a TRT 1200? Not sure on the pricing but seems like a cool boat. Other options are more dated multihulls, especially in SF bay. I owned and raced a 35' Crowther tri on the Bay and it was fast in the ocean, but not all that competitive otherwise (a big part of that is due to me being a total hack). 

I'm surprised the Antrim tri Erin didn't seem all that great? I would have thought that would be a heavy air / ocean weapon.

@multihuler's Antrim tri is the dream. Any idea on rating?

 

For what you want it is pretty tough to beat the F-31. They are available in your price range, race well in the Bay and ocean, and they are not completely terrifying when it blows over 20 knts. Or you could just say fuck it and buy afterburner?

 

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I have offered the Antrim for $1 in sa classifieds in the right non equity partnership, i am getting old, have too many boats and it is too much work.

getPart-225.jpeg

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2 hours ago, 40Plus said:

Interesting, we have generally raced boat for boat with the F-31's & F-85SR in day racing, they tend to be quicker upwind and we are faster downwind, our ratings are pretty close so it's close on corrected time too. Never even been close getting beat boat for boat by an f-27, having said that we optimized our M23 and it has a bigger kite. 

I was surprised as well. One thing about multihulls that people forget is that because of the huge difference in speed between being sailed exactly in the groove, and just a little bit out of it, crew make a huge difference. Much more so than on mono's I think

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9 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Some data would be nice - so the "experts" can judge it and finally conclude.... looks right - but its not a tri...

 

That would be Charleston, a (significantly) modified seb schmidt F28 that gets raced as hard as anything else in NZ. Speed wise, it smashes Dragon (it , it's arguably the fastest multi in NZ under 50' bar the foilers (assuming they can ever actually foil consistantly), and its done plently of racing outside the harbour as well. You could do a lot worse..

Race history here

http://racetrack.org.nz/boat.php?boatid=376341

 

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Impressive history there - and showing speed - and results. And the mods - which way - faster and even more scary than a orig F28 - or  a little more sedate? Well the times shows it can be much slower than an orig F28. 

 

But for Frisco or R2AK - needs really experienced crew....

 

Some mentioned TRT1200 - thats our race opposition here- locally designed but buildt in Bulgary- vinylester sandwich- carbon mast rudders and daggers - and they can be fast -beat all but the fastest Farriers- doing ocean- and are a really good touring boats too -maybe too big for the R2AK - but not impossible with the right system and some people. A friend got one last year for 77.000USD

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2 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

I was surprised as well. One thing about multihulls that people forget is that because of the huge difference in speed between being sailed exactly in the groove, and just a little bit out of it, crew make a huge difference. Much more so than on mono's I think

I think you are Spot on.  We have experienced that ourselves when we changed the rake for a windy day and didn't put it back to the original setting for a light air regatta, absolutely shocking the difference it made. 

 

As for the M23 itself, we have a daggerboard vs the stock centreboard which makes a big difference I think. That combined with stiffer beams and mounting points adds up to a decent performance gain. 

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1 hour ago, Dead air said:

That would be Charleston, a (significantly) modified seb schmidt F28 that gets raced as hard as anything else in NZ. Speed wise, it smashes Dragon (it , it's arguably the fastest multi in NZ under 50' bar the foilers (assuming they can ever actually foil consistantly), and its done plently of racing outside the harbour as well. You could do a lot worse..

Race history here

http://racetrack.org.nz/boat.php?boatid=376341

 

Smashed the SC 30 too, damn fast boat!

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15 hours ago, galacticair said:

I also spend a fair time playing with OMR, Texal and similar formula-based rating systems to evaluate relative boat speeds.  However, I've never quite understood why the rating systems never account for beam, given how important righting moment is to sail-carrying capacity on a multi. 

Texel does take into account beam in a crude way..... to calculate windstrength at zero stability and hence boat speed. More beam equals higher windstrength for zero stability equals more speed.

Multi Thom.... You might look at using Base Speed or BSpd as defined by Multihull Dynamics: http://www.multihulldynamics.com/news_article.asp?articleID=34

Max speed is double BSpd and as it happens, BSpd also approximates to maximum upwind speed.

i would be wary of using internet information unless there is no other way, it is often optimistic out of date or just plain wrong. You can get lengths, displacements and sail areas of real boats more accurately off rating certificates. Just make sure that with displacements, you check that they are on the same basis. Eg: Texel assumes a given crew weight for a certain sized boat. You can see what the add on is. OMR doesn’t and ratings are adjusted for every regatta for a declared minimum crew weight.

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On paper a F28 should be faster than SC30; 2-400kg lighter and with more sail - but the easy handling and the stiffness of the SC30 makes up for some...and in fresher conditions the SC30 would be the choice.

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41 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Multi Thom.... You might look at using Base Speed or BSpd as defined by Multihull Dynamics: http://www.multihulldynamics.com/news_article.asp?articleID=3

i would be wary of using internet information unless there is no other way, it is often optimistic out of date or just plain wrong.

I did look at Bspd but didn't care for the online UI.  Prefer to plug and chug something if all I'm doing is comparing two boats to guess which might be a little quicker.  None of the formulaes will tell which boat can point best nor which will handle chop of various different sizes/frequency....related to internet info...yah, the folks are usually "optimistic" particularly with weight but usually within 20%.  Sail Area is usually pretty close as is the length.   Basically ratings are worthless exercises (IMLO) since no two boats will sail consistently on all points of sail--look at any two polar diagrams and you will see what I mean.  That's why I prefer a rating system that takes skill, luck into account so that the amateurs always have a chance...

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1 hour ago, cazza said:

10mins in a 125nm race is not exactly a smashing... 

I stand corrected, I was looking at Taeping's elapsed, interestingly Dragon corrected out over both the SC 30 and the F28. 

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23 hours ago, ShaneBell said:

How bout this, faster than a sea cart 30,  4 bunks, reliable , safe little cat, has not tipped.  Fits in a normal marina berth.  Possibly could be for sale for a far cheaper price than anything comparable for the same speed.  In nz thou.

9F27821C-1F3A-461D-AC19-9369A0541A4C.jpeg

Now that looks like a fantastic ride.  Makes me smile just looking at it!  Gotta love those M32-style racks! 

Looks a lot like Afterburner's mini-me...  

3530730_orig.png  

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4 hours ago, galacticair said:

Now that looks like a fantastic ride.  Makes me smile just looking at it!  Gotta love those M32-style racks! 

Looks a lot like Afterburner's mini-me...  

3530730_orig.png  

So you're afraid an R33 is too much boat, but that one is good? :blink:

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Its Charleston - the F28 - he thinks is a fantastic ride... and its sure is...but...

"have never been flipped" -  like in roadracing - its those who have crashed - and those who will crash ...... 

 

 

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21 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Some mentioned TRT1200 - thats our race opposition here- locally designed but buildt in Bulgary- vinylester sandwich- carbon mast rudders and daggers - and they can be fast -beat all but the fastest Farriers- doing ocean- and are a really good touring boats too -maybe too big for the R2AK - but not impossible with the right system and some people. A friend got one last year for 77.000USD

TRTs are great boats.  Much more responsive than the average performance cruising cat but nothing like the responsiveness and performance of an R33 or Seacart 30.  Came close to buying one.  Would have at $77K.

Gosh, a bunch of great deals in this thread if the boats were/are not beat up POS.  TRT 1200 for $77K.  SeaCart 30 for $110K.  Reynolds 33 for $39K.  All USD.  All great deals.  I gotta get me some of that!!

 

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This might not exactly meet the OP's requirements but I'll mention it here anyway.  I received email this morning from Pat Newick regarding a "mostly finished" 38' Dick Newick "Echo" class trimaran for sale near Sydney, Australia (Lake Macquarie).  Details and photos here: http://dicknewickboats.com/echo38/

Quote

February 8, 2018 - Deceased builder Graham Murray's family must sell his nearly complete Newick "Echo" trimaran.

BOATS_002-s.jpg

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