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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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let's start a threat just on Vestas' recovery. (It is painful to dig through the leg 4 and the leg 6 threats... where did leg 5 go?  hah...I know, I know... we should ask the missing VOR management).

Anyway, on Vestas, any indication when did the boat leave HK? Arrival to NZ? (Are there any legal proceedings in China going on?)   Timewise, it seems extremely tight to make it to the leg start on March 18th (especially when considering the need to be OD). I won't be surprised if this boat ends making it on a freighter to Brazil or even Newport. 

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The Vestas speculation thread?

There was no official news whatsoever until rumors circulated (on this forum) about Vestas being loaded on board a freight vessel. That is now confirmed in a hasty press release, but the name of the freight vessel has not been specified, let alone whether it already left, what its destination is, and how long the trip (and repair) presumably will take.

ATM it seems that Vestas is about as difficult to track as an unlit fishing vessel in the South China Sea.

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From what I've read on a local sailing site they are going to fit a new bow section on the boat in Auckland and be ready for the inshore race and leg 7.

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The repair of the damage to the Vestas 11th Hour Racing's port side requires that Persico Marine build a new panel with the original VO65 molds, the same molds that were used to repair the damages suffered by the Vestas after running aground in the low ones of Cargados Carajos Shoals, near the Mauritius islands, in the second stage of the Volvo Ocean Race 2012/13.

 

After the incident, VO65 was transferred to a shipyard on the island of Tsing Yi. The intention of the team is to move it to Auckland where the replacement panel will be installed. This transfer to Auckland is estimated to last about ten days. Some sources point out that VO65 is already on its way to New Zealand.

Everything that surrounds this incident is being carried with absolute secrecy, proof of this is that it is not known who is carrying out the investigation, or if it has already concluded. Some sources indicate that three fishing boats were involved in the incident, two of them were well lit and visible to the crew, but the third was with the lights off. The collision between the Vestas and the fishing boat occurred in the wheelhouse of this third boat.

 

https://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fthornado.es%2Flas-reparaciones-en-el-vestas-11th-hour-racing%2F

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Is the current Vestas boat the same one (rebuilt version from the reef collision) from the previous race?

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why would they build a new bow?  Don't they have a whole spare boat?  Given in a few months these boats will be sold for cents on the dollar there isn't much point throwing money at a broken one.

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5 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

why would they build a new bow?  Don't they have a whole spare boat?  Given in a few months these boats will be sold for cents on the dollar there isn't much point throwing money at a broken one.

That’s been kicked to death already. 

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2 hours ago, Mid said:

Persico Marine

 

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Shanghai Sailor knows all he'll be along soon with the details. Unless he has to "protect his sources" in the shipping company. 

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50 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

why would they build a new bow?  Don't they have a whole spare boat?  Given in a few months these boats will be sold for cents on the dollar there isn't much point throwing money at a broken one.

You are assuming this is the last time these 65's go around. Looking at current RO organisational capacity bet on either;

1. A third tour for the 65's next edition, or if not, 

2. The next edition is in foilers/ whatever, but will be next century, or

 3. This is the last time we see the VOR.

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49 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

You are assuming this is the last time these 65's go around. Looking at current RO organisational capacity bet on either;

1. A third tour for the 65's next edition, or if not, 

2. The next edition is in foilers/ whatever, but will be next century, or

 3. This is the last time we see the VOR.

I’m betting on what’s behind door #3.

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Given the current silence of the CEOs I'm getting the feeling that it is close to even odds across Jack's three options.

The changes of the guard in Volvo, both in terms of overall brand ownership and board membership suggest that there is potential instability all round. The critical point will be the attitude of Geely, and the perception of the VOR's value to them. How they regard their ownership of Volvo Cars and their stake in Volvo AB will matter a lot. Whether it is a stake they simply own and allow to run as a seperate business - perhaps to be sold as a going concern at a later date, or something they intend to integrate over time into their overall corporate beast will matter. But any speculation to the future needs to be pretty clear that the top level of the race has changed - it isn't just that they have a new invisible CEO. The ownership has moved to majority Geely, and the chairman of the board of the VOR no longer has a board position with Volvo AB.

However, neither Volvo or the Chinese are renowned for impetuous decisions, and usually can be counted on to play a long game. The "triple crown" idea is a bit of a post hoc invention, but it has some momentum. Done right it could be given enough legs to make the VOR a long term publicity winner. But how this plays out past this race is likely to be much more open than things looked last year.

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4 hours ago, Mid said:

The trouble with that report is, as noted before, a ten day transit to Auckland is not reasonable. 23 to 27 days is typical. 10 days needs an average speed of 25 knots, which simply doesn't happen. There are not all that many ships sailing from Hong Kong to Auckland. The deal seems to be that cargo either goes to Singapore and thence to Auckland on a different ship - something that I would imagine they would like to avoid for Vestas11. Otherwise you see ships that do a loop that takes about 43 days to complete, and you get lucky with the date a ship is in HKG. For instance http://aplinfo.apl.com/services/documents/sells_mkt_ia_nz2.pdf

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Idle curiosity  , why do you think transshipment is to be avoided .

Simply a matter of lifting off and on .

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15 minutes ago, Mid said:

Idle curiosity  , why do you think transshipment is to be avoided .

Simply a matter of lifting off and on .

It is, but these transhipment systems are geared around container handling. You will need to store the boat for a short time whilst loading and unloading all the other (containerised) cargo. The boat needs to be the first off one ship and last on to the next ship. All of this adds to the grief, and the transhipment facility in Singapore may find this quite inconvenient. You can't manage the boat in the same way as containers. No using the usual lifting systems, no stacking it up in huge towers. Worst of all, you are going to be pretty nervous that your lovely brittle carbon fibre beast gets mistreated when out of your sight. Much better to be supervising it being loaded once, and be there at the other end to supervise its unloading. I'm sure it can be managed successfully, everything can given enough money. But if you can avoid the grief I would be going that way.

To add. All that said, V11 is sitting with of a lot of cargo, and if on one of the round trip ships, will visit a number of ports before Auckland. It may be that it is impossible not to need to move the boat during one of these visits in order to load and unload cargo. This is all part of the delicate logistics dance of managing container fleets. However, it looks as if V11 is on the deck, in which case all is OK. But not all ships have areas like this available. I'm sure someone put a lot of effort into organising his ride.

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fair enough , no argument with what you have said .

Singapore , would handle the exercise easily , though yes it would be expensive .

Years ago I was involved in several yacht transfers in Singapore , these where different I'll grant you .

Vessels where cranes off ship into water , required stops to be overridden to allow the cranes to travel far enough out board to put the yachts in the water .

Rode one down , fending off the ships sides hand over hand :ph34r:

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29 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

You will need to store the boat for a short time whilst loading and unloading all the other (containerised) cargo. The boat needs to be the first off one ship and last on to the next ship. All of this adds to the grief, and the transhipment facility in Singapore may find this quite inconvenient. You can't manage the boat in the same way as containers.

You can't manage the boat in the same way as containers. No using the usual lifting systems, no stacking it up in huge towers...

A 65' 13 tonner is pretty easy to throw around and find a place for the cradle (preferably with container protection around it) including loaded and unloaded over the side, not the dock as it obviously still floats. 

In addition a 65' should fit inside a roll-on roll-off which run like trains out of Asia to widen the options.

There is no shipping logistics drama here other than schedule.

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So if Vestas is going to Tauranga, has Southern Ocean got the contract or is it being reloaded back to Auckland for YDL to tackle?

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10 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

The trouble with that report is, as noted before, a ten day transit to Auckland is not reasonable. 23 to 27 days is typical. 10 days needs an average speed of 25 knots, which simply doesn't happen. There are not all that many ships sailing from Hong Kong to Auckland. The deal seems to be that cargo either goes to Singapore and thence to Auckland on a different ship - something that I would imagine they would like to avoid for Vestas11. Otherwise you see ships that do a loop that takes about 43 days to complete, and you get lucky with the date a ship is in HKG. For instance http://aplinfo.apl.com/services/documents/sells_mkt_ia_nz2.pdf

It is not uncommon for large cargo vessels to travel 20 to 25kts. In fact, they can go much faster. The displacement speed of a small cargo ship (just 600 feet) is 29.39 kts. If you use the FindShip mobile app and zoom into the area around china, you will see plenty of boats going at least 20kts. Once in open water, they can easly manage 25kts in fairly good seas.

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1 minute ago, JasonSeibert said:

It is not uncommon for large cargo vessels to travel 20 to 25kts. In fact, they can go much faster. The displacement speed of a small cargo ship (just 600 feet) is 29.39 kts. If you use the FindShip mobile app and zoom into the area around china, you will see plenty of boats going at least 20kts. Once in open water, they can easly manage 25kts in fairly good seas.

Here's a screen shot of a 297 meter long hazardous cargo vessel off China going just under 20kts... Sooo - let's try math and facts for a change instead of FUD?

Cheers.

findship.jpg

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8 minutes ago, JasonSeibert said:

It is not uncommon for large cargo vessels to travel 20 to 25kts. In fact, they can go much faster. The displacement speed of a small cargo ship (just 600 feet) is 29.39 kts. If you use the FindShip mobile app and zoom into the area around china, you will see plenty of boats going at least 20kts. Once in open water, they can easly manage 25kts in fairly good seas.

I agree with that - which is why I noted it was the average required for the whole journey. The huge displacement limited for a big ship is part of why we have such efficient transport across the globe. I just found that the 10 day number quoted was past the edge of reasonable expectations. As it is, it looks as if the actual time is a pretty spiffy 14 days. Which is much closer to what I would expect.

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7 hours ago, JeffBridges said:

Based on the tracking for containers in the background of this picture it is the SAFMARINE NOKWANDA which according to this is due to arrive in Tauranga on the 11th of February.

THIS is why I love Sailing Anarchy. 

 

VS11 to be in the shop in NZL before the race boats break the 5,000 DTF mark. 

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9 hours ago, JeffBridges said:

Based on the tracking for containers in the background of this picture it is the SAFMARINE NOKWANDA which according to this is due to arrive in Tauranga on the 11th of February.

Well played!!

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4 hours ago, JasonSeibert said:

It is not uncommon for large cargo vessels to travel 20 to 25kts. In fact, they can go much faster. The displacement speed of a small cargo ship (just 600 feet) is 29.39 kts. If you use the FindShip mobile app and zoom into the area around china, you will see plenty of boats going at least 20kts. Once in open water, they can easly manage 25kts in fairly good seas.

There are no container ships going that fast. 20-24 would be more typical.

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10 hours ago, JeffBridges said:

Based on the tracking for containers in the background of this picture it is the SAFMARINE NOKWANDA which according to this is due to arrive in Tauranga on the 11th of February.

great catch. I keep looking at the picture of the ship and cannot find any indication about its name. But anyhow, if correct, Vestas left HK on the day of the In-Port already. Very strange that it has taken VOR one week to inform the world. 

anyway, with an arrival in NZ on Feb 11th, there is definitely enough time to repair the boat for the leg to Cape Horn. (of course, if there is no exclusion zone around the Horn stopping the boats to get there... sarcasm...urg)

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21 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

The trouble with that report is, as noted before, a ten day transit to Auckland is not reasonable. 23 to 27 days is typical.

 

16 hours ago, JeffBridges said:

Based on the tracking for containers in the background of this picture it is the SAFMARINE NOKWANDA which according to this is due to arrive in Tauranga on the 11th of February.

Francis maybe you should take Shipping Logistics off your CV?

Great piece of detective work Jeff. You get this months Sleuthing Prize.

 

images (35).jpeg

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8 hours ago, JeronimoII said:

Very strange that it has taken VOR one week to inform the world. 

What the fuck differnce does make if they broadcast it on the day, the day after or when it's offloaded in NZL?

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4 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

What the fuck differnce does make if they broadcast it on the day, the day after or when it's offloaded in NZL?

it's called transparency. All our speculations and bad press started the moment there were no news. 

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26 minutes ago, JeronimoII said:

it's called transparency. All our speculations and bad press started the moment there were no news. 

In other words it makes fuck all difference to any discussion here, or the life of anyone reading or posting here. Those involved are well across what's going on, a bunch of bozos posting on a sailing forum are close to the bottom on the list on people who need to be kept up to date on where the boat is at.

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Time for Transparency is Now

Quote

However, there are many more questions for which answers are needed. For an event that positions itself as one of the sport’s ‘Big Three’ events, alongside the Olympics and America’s Cup, silence is not golden. To embrace the sports fan, you cannot choose what you share. If the race wants to stay relevant, the time for transparency is now.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2018/02/05/time-transparency-now/

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Does The Volvo Ocean Race Have A Credibility Problem?

Quote

That’s the view from an editorial on US website Sailing Illustrated, which takes the event to task over lack of information regarding Vestas 11th Hour Racing’s absence from the next leg, among other issues.

https://afloat.ie/sail/events/volvo-ocean-race/item/38378-does-the-volvo-ocean-race-have-a-credibility-problem

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1 hour ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

...a bunch of bozos posting on a sailing forum are close to the bottom on the list on people who need to be kept up to date on where the boat is at.

You should get into marketing Gorn...you would excel at it :-)

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On 06/02/2018 at 9:53 AM, mad said:

That’s been kicked to death already. 

no more than the rest would have been thrashed on that leg though, surely?

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3 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

In other words it makes fuck all difference to any discussion here, or the life of anyone reading or posting here. Those involved are well across what's going on, a bunch of bozos posting on a sailing forum are close to the bottom on the list on people who need to be kept up to date on where the boat is at.

we are the only ones that (still) give a shit about this race, so Volvo should better not alienated us further. Ask anyone on the street about the Volvo (besides on the stopover cities), and almost no-one knows about it. 

Tom Ehman has started comparing the VOR with the World Wrestling Federation, i.e. a fake race that just fulfils Volvo's objectives. It is still not late to turn things back, but time is running out. (Tom suggests that the race should be managed by an independent body). 

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3 hours ago, JeronimoII said:

Tom Ehman has started comparing the VOR with the World Wrestling Federation, i.e. a fake race that just fulfils Volvo's objectives. It is still not late to turn things back, but time is running out. (Tom suggests that the race should be managed by an independent body). 

Tom has a lot of experience with independence...he once allowed someone else to toss Larry's salad.

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A quick fix response from the VOR, via tweet. ~1:30 min; "At this time we cannot speculate on the unknown details"

 

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On 07/02/2018 at 8:18 PM, jack_sparrow said:

You should get into marketing Gorn...you would excel at it :-)

Would be like shooting fish in a barrel here. Set up a Patreon page or similar offering exclusive updates and pictures of where V11 currently Is, charge $50 flat and by noon tomorrow I'd have enough coin to cover my return trip to watch the finish & restart in Aukland.

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Couple of days old (no SAT-AIS subscription here). No doubt someone else has a more recent update.
 
Position Received:  2018-02-07 20:29 UTC
Vessel's Time Zone:  UTC +11
Area:  EAUS - Coral Sea
Latitude / Longitude:  -21.39993° / 162.7183°
Status: Underway Using Engine
Speed/Course:  15.6kn / 142°
AIS Source:  Satellite MRCC NOUMEA

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:688025/mmsi:477552200/imo:9294393/vessel:SAFMARINE_NOKWANDA/_:3cde6984bf3089520ca4d04487196542#Lk9vkxXx0AJkI6zo.99

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Tauranga is where most yachts I know of have been shipped in and out of NZ. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is the biggest /busiest container port, so would be the quickest way of getting the boat into the country. 

No idea which years they are going to, but I imagine that most of the work will be run by Persico. 

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17 hours ago, Rushman said:

Tauranga is a long way from Auckland... Is YD not doing the repair?

Just up the road by low-loader. Even handier by sea. No wait....

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2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Just up the road by low-loader. Even handier by sea. No wait....

230km, takes about 3 hours in a car, slightly longer if my better half is navigating!

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35 minutes ago, Rushman said:

230km, takes about 3 hours in a car, slightly longer if my better half is navigating!

129nm by sea. 2hours, 35minutes by car.

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I’m not sure it’s car-toppable? ;)

Sailby’s lowloader might work, but will take a little longer to allow for nannystating escorts and speeds. And stops for pies.

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3 hours ago, HFC Hunter said:

I’m not sure it’s car-toppable? ;)

Sailby’s lowloader might work, but will take a little longer to allow for nannystating escorts and speeds. And stops for pies.

Trucking is very likely, Speedboat from Cookson's to the Viaduct 100ft long, 28ft wide. Night time is a good time.

 

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13 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

129nm by sea. 2hours, 35minutes by car.

2 hours 15 if you leave Tauranga at 5 in the morning   :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, mad said:

2 hours 15 if you leave Tauranga at 5 in the morning   :ph34r:

7:00am on the Southern Motorway? Yeah. Might be OK. But maybe not if it's pissing down. Safer to leave at 4:00am maybe.

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The ship arrived last night at 2330. there is a big enough shed in Tauranga if they want to do the work there, more likely trucked up to AKL around 0000 tonight though.

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^^^ Pretty slick work..pity no-one at Vestas and the RO think it worth crowing about. Wonder how team Persico is going with the bow..must be close to putting it on a Kerosene Canary?

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Nice work and going to AKL, probably Cookson or YDL. Why cant the Volvo team report this shit because at the end of the day it is a great story, albeit with a tragic start to the story...................

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51 minutes ago, clubracer said:

https://www.clubracer.be/2018/2/12/vestas-11th-hour-racing-arriveert-nieuw-zeeland

At 11:30 local time on 12 February Vestas 11th Hour Racing was unloaded from the container vessel Safmarine Nokwanda.

Webcam pictures included.

Can anyone on SA translate this? 

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Om 11:30 locale tijd op 12 februari werd de boot van Vestas 11th Hour Racing gelost van het containerschip Safmarine Nokwanda dat op 28 januari vertrok uit Hong Kong met bestemming Tauranga in Nieuw Zeeland. De Volvo Ocean 65 boot werd gelijk op een truck weggereden.

 

VS 11 arrived in Tauranga on 11.30 local time on the 12th of feb. VS11 was loaded  off safemarine Nokawanda which left Hongkong on the 28th of jan. On  arrival VS11 was truck inmediately and left Tauranga. 

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Vestas is in Tauranga, on the transporter ready to go to Auckland.

Photos of the damage, which is far more extensive than they have shown to date.

Marks on both sides of the bow, skin ripped off below the water, and finally the large hole in the side.

I am guessing, Vestas run up onto the fishing boat, which then rolled, and the sharp corner of the stern or cabin dug the massive hole in the side. 

 

Vestas 1.jpg

vestas 2.jpg

vestas 3.jpg

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2 hours ago, thetruth said:

Nice work and going to AKL, probably Cookson or YDL. Why cant the Volvo team report this shit because at the end of the day it is a great story, albeit with a tragic start to the story...................

My guess would be they don't report because one of the partners has expensive US lawyers involved. Decision to do all of this is the teams rather than VOR. Though no doubt Coxy is facilitating a lot of it. 

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Thank-you pacice , I clicked like in recognition of the time and effort required to share the pics .

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24 minutes ago, Mid said:

Thank-you pacice , I clicked like in recognition of the time and effort required to share the pics .

The same reason i did.

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2 hours ago, Potter said:

My guess would be they don't report because one of the partners has expensive US lawyers involved. Decision to do all of this is the teams rather than VOR. Though no doubt Coxy is facilitating a lot of it. 

As a US attorney, I would agree with you, Potter (your first sentence). But I also believe  the VOR org is involved as well. This is very different in all significant respects from Vestas' accident in the previous edition, which was a self-inflicted wreck on a reef. Nor was it the loss of life of a participating crew member. Rather, it was the death of a Chinese fisherman in a boat that was involved with a multimillion dollar yacht traveling quickly in congested, dark seas. The circumstances of the accident are not publicly known and there are legitimate reasons for keeping it that way until the applicable parties have made their respective investigations. To quickly move ahead with publicizing the planned repairs can appear to be disrespectful of the deceased fisherman. While Vestas11's sponsors, together with the crew, have decided to effectuate the obvious extensive and expensive repairs to enable the boat to continue with the race, it would not play well with some of the entities I imagine are involved with the investigations as well as local public perception of what may have occurred.  And, frankly, who really needs to know what is going on with the boat except the sponsors, crew and VOR organization. Yes, there is our insatiable desire to know the details of the accident as well as the repair, but is it necessary? Perhaps the circumstances of the accident are important, as it could/should/already has lead/led to some changes on avoiding areas congested with other boats who could be smaller, not lit, not under sail, or moving at all. It could/should be a consideration  in future legs of this race and of other editions of this race, assuming there will be some. 

The Vestas accident, recovery and repair of the boat in the previous edition of the VOR was shocking and fascinating. The crew quickly moved to remove any items from the wreck that could potentially cause environmental damage. They removed the ship not only to continue the race but to also get it off the reef. It was stated that local residents were surprised that the boat was recovered as they were used to such accidents resulting in boats being abandoned.  

The recovery, transport and repair on the boat was well documented and the subject of much-watched videos. No need to keep it low key, though I am sure Chris Nicholson was pained with the omnipresent and very popular viewing of the video of the grounding as well as the boat up on the reef, shattered. 

Edited by despacio avenue
Finished thought process.
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59 minutes ago, Mid said:

Thank-you pacice , I clicked like in recognition of the time and effort required to share the pics .

Same reason I did. I am not exactly sure, though, what composites I am looking at esp underneath the bow.  Also, to the extent there is no damage, would the equipment be transferred from the old bow to the new one? What exactly would Persico be building? This aspect is also different from the previous Vestas accident.

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1 hour ago, despacio avenue said:

Same reason I did. I am not exactly sure, though, what composites I am looking at esp underneath the bow.  Also, to the extent there is no damage, would the equipment be transferred from the old bow to the new one? What exactly would Persico be building? This aspect is also different from the previous Vestas accident.

O.k., o.k., o.k., I did too.

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Guess this puts to rest the discussion of how much bow is being built:

Quote

We are very close to the Team Vestas after the accident in China.

Helping them out with a new bow section. We are ready for the next stopover in New Zealand.

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7 hours ago, despacio avenue said:

Same reason I did. I am not exactly sure, though, what composites I am looking at esp underneath the bow.  Also, to the extent there is no damage, would the equipment be transferred from the old bow to the new one? What exactly would Persico be building? This aspect is also different from the previous Vestas accident.

There is a line of blue tape around the damaged area. I guess this is the part they are wanting to replace, otherwise you are getting into a lot of structural areas of the bow, and a lot more work.

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Photos of Vestas in Tauranga.

Sorry I'm not doing well at linking photos , From Tauranga yacht club facebook page. 

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