Presuming Ed

Oyster Yachts gone bust

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2 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

My mom had a similar case.  Well known  wealthy yachtsman from CT ran up on a dock downwind with his powerboat.  She was then 65 yrs old and now had a severed Achilles' tendon. Mr Powerboat was so apologetic on the spot promised to take care of everything, until he spoke to his lawyer.   Took about 7-8 yrs and we settled the day before court.  2 of the 3 witnesses, husbands,  had died by then.  Their Lawyer said for months and right before the trial 'you really don't want to put your elderly mom through a trial do you?'  I said she can't fucking wait to go.  She bought a new dress for it. see you tomorrow !   75 yr old widow on the stand against a rich asshole.  They couldn't find a jury for that guy. 

Its the insurance business.  Delay, delay, delay, settle.  Odds are usually they win of course. 

^^^^^ This! 

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Here is our local ambulance chaser attorney. He paid for a 30 second spot during the SuperBowl so business must be good! In this installment he basically spoofs all his competitions ads. Guy is a hoot!

 

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16 hours ago, frozenhawaiian said:

the company's reputation is basically torched

i don't agree

ford built the pinto -  ford is still around..., MD built the DC-10... i guess boeing owns MD now but they still use the brand.., Toyota... i could go on forever with companies that built products that killed people and are still doing fine

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30 minutes ago, us7070 said:

i don't agree

ford built the pinto -  ford is still around..., MD built the DC-10... i guess boeing owns MD now but they still use the brand.., Toyota... i could go on forever with companies that built products that killed people and are still doing fine

 

The difference between Ford Pinto, DC-10 and the Toyota unintended acceleration - is the Pinto was not statistically less safe than other vehicles of the era, the DC-10 & DC-11 variant continued service for ~30+ years, and the Toyota unintended acceleration issue was basically a mass hysteria hoax. 

Oyster's keel problem & its issue is more like... de Havilland Comet. The industry is a tough one, and with Oyster positioning itself in the luxury market with relatively low volume, just losing a few prospective luxury would be buyers in an era where luxury catamarans and trimarans are dominating new private boat sales priced above $250,000 euros - it is a tough market to keep alive esp with the Brexit nonsense coming along.

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20 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

My mom had a similar case. Well known wealthy yachtsman from CT ran up on a dock downwind with his powerboat. She was then 65 yrs old and now had a severed Achilles' tendon. 

She was lucky he didn't sue her;)

 

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2 hours ago, Miffy said:

 

The difference between Ford Pinto, DC-10 and the Toyota unintended acceleration - is the Pinto was not statistically less safe than other vehicles of the era, the DC-10 & DC-11 variant continued service for ~30+ years, and the Toyota unintended acceleration issue was basically a mass hysteria hoax. 

Oyster's keel problem & its issue is more like... de Havilland Comet. The industry is a tough one, and with Oyster positioning itself in the luxury market with relatively low volume, just losing a few prospective luxury would be buyers in an era where luxury catamarans and trimarans are dominating new private boat sales priced above $250,000 euros - it is a tough market to keep alive esp with the Brexit nonsense coming along.

Yeah, I agree with this.  Anyone who's prepared to drop millions on a new build and is considering Oyster will make themselves (or their agent) intimately familiar with this debacle, and likely conclude that there are non-zero probabilities of any of the following:

  • Oyster won't remain solvent (even under a new owner) and I'll lose my deposit
  • Build quality will not be the same as it was when Oyster built their reputation
  • Oyster won't stand behind their product
  • I and/or my crew might die
  • For one reason or another, my dream of a long cruise/retirement in this boat might never happen if I go this route

Honestly that last one is maybe the biggest issue, and I think is probably driving a lot of the owner's rage here.  This kind of a purchase is supposed to be the ultimate self-reward, a pure luxury, the culmination of a successful life.  Instead he and his crew have had their lives endangered, they've been insulted, gone through legal hell, and several years later *still* don't have a boat!  If I were in my 60's that would piss me off more than anything - that I lost all of those years of cruising enjoyment; nobody can buy those back.  

Not like a Pinto at all really.  

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On 2/6/2018 at 3:22 PM, slug zitski said:

Oyster had a niche in the Mid size boats  .   They are nothing special in the big range .

yards like Baltic  produce special boats and they have  loyal clients with deep pockets.

same with builders in the Netherlands.

Oyster was going after that market ...it didnt work 

IMG_8066.jpg

Yep, they bit off way more than they could chew.  Choked on it.

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45 minutes ago, socalrider said:

Yeah, I agree with this.  Anyone who's prepared to drop millions on a new build and is considering Oyster will make themselves (or their agent) intimately familiar with this debacle, and likely conclude that there are non-zero probabilities of any of the following:

  • Oyster won't remain solvent (even under a new owner) and I'll lose my deposit
  • Build quality will not be the same as it was when Oyster built their reputation
  • Oyster won't stand behind their product
  • I and/or my crew might die
  • For one reason or another, my dream of a long cruise/retirement in this boat might never happen if I go this route

Honestly that last one is maybe the biggest issue, and I think is probably driving a lot of the owner's rage here.  This kind of a purchase is supposed to be the ultimate self-reward, a pure luxury, the culmination of a successful life.  Instead he and his crew have had their lives endangered, they've been insulted, gone through legal hell, and several years later *still* don't have a boat!  If I were in my 60's that would piss me off more than anything - that I lost all of those years of cruising enjoyment; nobody can buy those back.  

Not like a Pinto at all really.  

Yep. For people with the funds, the only thing they can't buy more off is time. And to be honest? What's the fundamental distinguishing factors that separates a particular Oyster from generic HR? If you have the money - you have a lot of options. I don't see anything in the Oyster lineup that's so peculiarly unqiue why it can't be done elsewhere without the UK troubles. 

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

I don't see anything in the Oyster lineup that's so peculiarly unqiue why it can't be done elsewhere without the UK troubles. 

Well, there is/was the Oyster World Rally (currently in NZ). I am unaware of any other yacht manufacturer organizing rallies for their customers. So that's unique.

I'm not personally a fan of rallies, but many people do like them and I guess it might be a factor in one's deliberations when choosing a high-end cruising boat. But as socalrider has pointed out, there are other more important factors that will deter potential buyers.

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1 hour ago, Svanen said:

Well, there is/was the Oyster World Rally (currently in NZ). I am unaware of any other yacht manufacturer organizing rallies for their customers. So that's unique.

I'm not personally a fan of rallies, but many people do like them and I guess it might be a factor in one's deliberations when choosing a high-end cruising boat. But as socalrider has pointed out, there are other more important factors that will deter potential buyers.

Funny with your screen name that you have never heard of the Swan regattas and rallies - many other manufacturers have similar events

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Fully supported around-the-world rallies? I don't believe Swan or any other manufacturer does that. Perhaps I'm wrong.

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1 hour ago, Svanen said:

Fully supported around-the-world rallies? I don't believe Swan or any other manufacturer does that. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I doubt it's fully supported now. And no 1/2 refund coming. Entry fee not insignificant, by the way.

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3 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

English engineering.

They have BTDT with motorcycles. However this current problem affects one sunk boat, and two others that have hopefully been properly repaired. Would have been nice if they replaced both of the repaired boats, with something that does not have the shadow of doubt about it. Meanwhile the rest of the world's Oysters will likely sail on as before, knowing they have decent boats. If they adequately bury, as in fix it, the current mess, they should be able to carry on. But not with the same attitude as shown with the handling of the sunk boat. For that they deserve to get roasted, and pay a financial price.

Unkle Krusty

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51 minutes ago, jhc said:

I doubt it's fully supported now. And no 1/2 refund coming. Entry fee not insignificant, by the way.

I have heard a rumour that the rally organization, and Oyster Brokerage, are to be kept operating as separate entities from Oyster Yachts. I don't know if that's true or merely someone's wishful thinking: I have no connection with, or inside information from, Oyster.

41 minutes ago, Unkle Crusty said:

If they adequately bury, as in fix it, the current mess, they should be able to carry on. But not with the same attitude as shown with the handling of the sunk boat. For that they deserve to get roasted, and pay a financial price.

I'm not optimistic that Oyster can carry on. But if they do have a future, it will certainly require a thorough house-cleaning of senior management, and perhaps middle management too.

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5 minutes ago, Svanen said:

I have heard a rumour that the rally organization, and Oyster Brokerage, are to be kept operating as separate entities from Oyster Yachts. I don't know if that's true or merely someone's wishful thinking: I have no connection with, or inside information from, Oyster.

I'm not optimistic that Oyster can carry on. But if they do have a future, it will certainly require a thorough house-cleaning of senior management, and perhaps middle management too.

This is true, or least is the current situation. :ph34r:

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I'd guess it could be fixed if RM purchases it but if any of those current guys are involved its toast

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Never forget that most existing owners of a brand do not want their choice to be devalued or criticised. A sort of brand loyalty which you can understand when you analyse the purchase decision making process. Also worth noting the high rate of repeat purchase by Oyster owners. This is an outfit that has been through various phases over the years. Remember Oyster 41 and 43, SJ35, Hustler 32 etc. Marketing company, specialist builder, all in one empire. Oyster has seen some brilliant people and periods, as well as some less glorious. Did a stroppy cloggie through his toys out of the pram this time, faced with a rich Russian and legions of lawyers making claims for things no UK court would ever uphold?

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Financially, the loss of PS would only be the tip of the iceberg. I would guess there would be a class action suit on behalf of all Oyster owners seeking damages for loss in value of their boats. Toyota lost such a suit with the Tundra acceleration problem and had to compensate Tundra owners.

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15 hours ago, Svanen said:

I have heard a rumour that the rally organization, and Oyster Brokerage, are to be kept operating as separate entities from Oyster Yachts. I don't know if that's true or merely someone's wishful thinking: I have no connection with, or inside information from, Oyster.

I'm not optimistic that Oyster can carry on. But if they do have a future, it will certainly require a thorough house-cleaning of senior management, and perhaps middle management too.

The timing is also just wonderful example of being piled on. With certainty in Brexit, who wants to pickup assets in the UK without any clue as to future import export currency arrangements?

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3 hours ago, cms said:

Never forget that most existing owners of a brand do not want their choice to be devalued or criticised. A sort of brand loyalty which you can understand when you analyse the purchase decision making process. Also worth noting the high rate of repeat purchase by Oyster owners. This is an outfit that has been through various phases over the years. Remember Oyster 41 and 43, SJ35, Hustler 32 etc. Marketing company, specialist builder, all in one empire. Oyster has seen some brilliant people and periods, as well as some less glorious. Did a stroppy cloggie through his toys out of the pram this time, faced with a rich Russian and legions of lawyers making claims for things no UK court would ever uphold?

Oyster did build some quality boats in the past. I don't see where that rep is harmed. Issue is the 825, other recent models prob should be surveyed very carefully. Obviously the customer experience reputation is greatly damaged by Oyster's actions, at least as new boats go. IDK how the rally and support for current owners will shake out.

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On 2/22/2018 at 10:54 AM, us7070 said:

i don't agree

ford built the pinto -  ford is still around..., MD built the DC-10... i guess boeing owns MD now but they still use the brand.., Toyota... i could go on forever with companies that built products that killed people and are still doing fine

fords, commercial aircraft, toyotas, none of these are luxury status symbols for the ultra rich. the keel falling off a basically new boat some could looks past. that on top of the company dicking around the owner the way osyter did? in the yachting industry thats a reputation killer. I say that having spent some years working in the yachting industry and I can tell you first hand that the entitled super rich have very little tolerance for being dicked around,  especially when there are so many other high quality builders out there. 

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Not entirely sure that we should take the owner's version as gospel? It is pretty hard for a builder to simply say it's their fault, without knowing a lot more. Equally, pressure from insurers and assorted lawyers makes life hard. There are exceptions, like Schmid'l with Hanse. Some fuckups happened. He fixed them if he personally felt there was a problem with a boat. Admittedly, he also told some moaning owners to fuck off ....

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40 minutes ago, cms said:

Not entirely sure that we should take the owner's version as gospel? It is pretty hard for a builder to simply say it's their fault, without knowing a lot more. Equally, pressure from insurers and assorted lawyers makes life hard. There are exceptions, like Schmid'l with Hanse. Some fuckups happened. He fixed them if he personally felt there was a problem with a boat. Admittedly, he also told some moaning owners to fuck off ....

Well you can’t really argue when the keel disappears taking a chunk of hull with it... or sealed compartments with hidden ballast. 

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57 minutes ago, mad said:

Well you can’t really argue when the keel disappears taking a chunk of hull with it... or sealed compartments with hidden ballast. 

All that weight in the pointy end needs explaining. So too the building process for the keel. Those details should have been fixed before the boat was delivered. Reflects poorly on the designer as well.

On the one hand there are companies like Saturn who tried to hide from their ignition key screw up. I got paid after something like five or more years. But for another issue from Hobie. I was a dealer, and they send a message: " We have discovered a problem with the new Hobie 18, where the forward cross beam meets the hulls. We are working on a fix, do not sell any boats, do not sail any boats " So I had to park hull 193, the one I was sailing. Shortly thereafter I got a phone call from a glass guy in Seattle. He asked where is Penticton, I am on my way, a pile of stuff will also arrive. And that is what happened. He strengthened the hulls with glass rods. Then he asked, which way is Montreal?  I am thinking 3 weeks total time from the first notification.

Unkle Krusty

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Attaching keels with penny washers, denying all responsibility when said keels fall off .... hasn't driven Bavaria under.

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1 hour ago, cms said:

Attaching keels with penny washers, denying all responsibility when said keels fall off .... hasn't driven Bavaria under.

And that’s a real shame. Then again, you get what you pay for with a Bavaria, I’m not sure Oyster owners are happy getting Bavaria quality at Oyster prices 

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Some may recall the keel on Drum fell off. Ron Holland the designer, was the first suspect. At the inquiry he explained in great detail how he calculated the loads from the keel, placed on the hull. It too had a short keel piece as part of the hull structure, with the keel attached to it. The structure was aluminium. The culprit turned out to be crappy welding of the aluminium. I have another keel story, but I can save it for a rainy day.

Unkle Krusty

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1 hour ago, Unkle Crusty said:

Some may recall the keel on Drum fell off. Ron Holland the designer, was the first suspect. At the inquiry he explained in great detail how he calculated the loads from the keel, placed on the hull. It too had a short keel piece as part of the hull structure, with the keel attached to it. The structure was aluminium. The culprit turned out to be crappy welding of the aluminium. I have another keel story, but I can save it for a rainy day.

Unkle Krusty

I hear raindrops....

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A boat builder for people with $$$ goes bust because of  $$$$$

Oh Well, they should have had better attorneys than the rich people.

Modern society sucks because it was designed by attorneys. Get used to it.

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27 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

A boat builder for people with $$$ goes bust because of  $$$$$

Oh Well, they should have had better attorneys than the rich people.

Modern society sucks because it was designed by attorneys. Get used to it.

Uh... what?

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On 25/02/2018 at 1:27 AM, Unkle Crusty said:

Some may recall the keel on Drum fell off. Ron Holland the designer, was the first suspect. At the inquiry he explained in great detail how he calculated the loads from the keel, placed on the hull. It too had a short keel piece as part of the hull structure, with the keel attached to it. The structure was aluminium. The culprit turned out to be crappy welding of the aluminium. I have another keel story, but I can save it for a rainy day.

Unkle Krusty

This is a completely different keel structure and failure issue. Have you read any of the posts above?

it may help you. 

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On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 8:27 PM, Unkle Crusty said:

Some may recall the keel on Drum fell off. Ron Holland the designer, was the first suspect. At the inquiry he explained in great detail how he calculated the loads from the keel, placed on the hull. It too had a short keel piece as part of the hull structure, with the keel attached to it. The structure was aluminium. The culprit turned out to be crappy welding of the aluminium. I have another keel story, but I can save it for a rainy day.

Unkle Krusty

 

Aluminium does not like salt water.  Was bringing a 65' IOR boat, that I was running, north for the season, after SORC, and we were taking on water, not a lot, but noticeable.  Turned out the Derektor built aluminum hull had suffered a stress crack, from vibration, next to the prop strut, it might even have been where the strut was welded on, but not sure, as this was 35 years ago.  So we kept the throttle back, to a non-vibrating level, for the rest of the trip, and the yard patched it up when we got back to Stamford.  At the dock, we always hung sacrificial zinc anodes fore and aft, clamped to the integral aluminum toe rail.

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^^^ Someone should write new lines for these people ..."I'm buying it to save one of our nation's iconic brands blah blah" has been done to death.

Some capital and start building boats to schedule to then secure a guaranteed cash flow and then most probably it will all work out for this guy.

The PS (and others) was the problem but not the reasons many think. It wasn't just the keel dropping off. 

They were adding customising to a already flakey production build line so then build schedules/cash flow went to shit and were under capitalised to absorb that financial shock.

It is not rocket science.

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57 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

^^^ Someone should write new lines for these people ..."I'm buying it to save one of our nation's iconic brands blah blah" has been done to death.

Some capital and start building boats to schedule to then secure a guaranteed cash flow and then most probably it will all work out for this guy.

The PS (and others) was the problem but not the reasons many think. It wasn't just the keel dropping off. 

They were adding customising to a already flakey production build line so then build schedules/cash flow went to shit and were under capitalised to absorb that financial shock.

It is not rocket science.

lot of truth to this. Oyster was never a custom yard, they were a semi custom yard at best, owners could tweak certain things but that was about it. as soon as they moved away from that trouble was sure to follow. 

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On 2/25/2018 at 1:22 AM, Unkle Crusty said:

All that weight in the pointy end needs explaining. So too the building process for the keel. Those details should have been fixed before the boat was delivered. Reflects poorly on the designer as well.

On the one hand there are companies like Saturn who tried to hide from their ignition key screw up. I got paid after something like five or more years. But for another issue from Hobie. I was a dealer, and they send a message: " We have discovered a problem with the new Hobie 18, where the forward cross beam meets the hulls. We are working on a fix, do not sell any boats, do not sail any boats " So I had to park hull 193, the one I was sailing. Shortly thereafter I got a phone call from a glass guy in Seattle. He asked where is Penticton, I am on my way, a pile of stuff will also arrive. And that is what happened. He strengthened the hulls with glass rods. Then he asked, which way is Montreal?  I am thinking 3 weeks total time from the first notification.

Unkle Krusty

The build process for the keel and the hull is questionable. Obviously they made quality yachts previously, especially when Richard Mathews was leading the business but the cost saving seems to have been made a priority with the recent owners. Owners that are purely looking at the financials should never be allowed to make decisions regarding safety and peoples lives. 

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Good luck to the new guy, if it gets through the diligence phase. Maybe he'll go back to the Matthews-era model where, as I understand it, Oyster were more of a design, marketing, commissioning and support company and most of the boatbuilding was outsourced. I always assumed that was what gave them the flexibility to go through downturns. And the support thing was pretty real and commercially successful. I met a chap who bought one of their boats to do a round the world rally (I think) and he said a surprising number of boats were bought new specifically for that event. 

As to the previously unknown Mr. Hadida, he does own a good chunk of this company Evolution Gaming, which has a baffling business model they sum up thus:

"Evolution Gaming is a leading B2B provider of Live Casino systems in Europe. In Live Casino, a human dealer runs the game in real time from a casino gaming table which can be seen via a live streaming video link. Players make betting decisions on their device (desktop, smartphone, tablet etc) and can communicate with the dealer using a text chat function. Evolution's vision is to be the leading  Live Casino provider in the world. The group today employs approximately 3,500 people whereof a majority is based in Latvia and Malta. The parent company is domiciled in Sweden."

Anyway, it all adds up to a market capitalisation of some 17,500,000,000 Euros. 17.5 billion. About 20 billion of your dollars. Which makes boat-building look quite sensible. 

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On 2/26/2018 at 5:16 PM, mad said:

This is a completely different keel structure and failure issue. Have you read any of the posts above?

it may help you. 

Well thank you for that Mad. Part of the discussion concerns how different companies have handled product failure. Have you been able to notice the connection?  My comments fit that criteria. However if it pleases you, I could ask you to review my posts B4 sending. If Oyster had used Ron Holland's calculations, and used quality building methods, the keel would still be attached.

Unkle Krusty

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11 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Let's hope he is as successful as Leonardo Ferragmo was with Swan. Good luck to him

They’re still having their issues. :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, Mr. Ed said:

Good luck to the new guy, if it gets through the diligence phase. Maybe he'll go back to the Matthews-era model where, as I understand it, Oyster were more of a design, marketing, commissioning and support company and most of the boatbuilding was outsourced. I always assumed that was what gave them the flexibility to go through downturns. And the support thing was pretty real and commercially successful. I met a chap who bought one of their boats to do a round the world rally (I think) and he said a surprising number of boats were bought new specifically for that event. 

As to the previously unknown Mr. Hadida, he does own a good chunk of this company Evolution Gaming, which has a baffling business model they sum up thus:

"Evolution Gaming is a leading B2B provider of Live Casino systems in Europe. In Live Casino, a human dealer runs the game in real time from a casino gaming table which can be seen via a live streaming video link. Players make betting decisions on their device (desktop, smartphone, tablet etc) and can communicate with the dealer using a text chat function. Evolution's vision is to be the leading  Live Casino provider in the world. The group today employs approximately 3,500 people whereof a majority is based in Latvia and Malta. The parent company is domiciled in Sweden."

Anyway, it all adds up to a market capitalisation of some 17,500,000,000 Euros. 17.5 billion. About 20 billion of your dollars. Which makes boat-building look quite sensible. 

Do you have a link to the original please?

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12 minutes ago, Unkle Crusty said:

Well thank you for that Mad. Part of the discussion concerns how different companies have handled product failure. Have you been able to notice the connection?  My comments fit that criteria. However if it pleases you, I could ask you to review my posts B4 sending. If Oyster had used Ron Holland's calculations, and used quality building methods, the keel would still be attached.

Unkle Krusty

Ron Holland has nothing to do with this design, build or the structural engineering of the boat. 

I reviewed your post, and you’re talking shit, go away and review your source of information before spouting off with even more shit. 

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3 minutes ago, mad said:

Ron Holland has nothing to do with this design, build or the structural engineering of the boat. 

I reviewed your post, and you’re talking shit, go away and review your source of information before spouting off with even more shit. 

I never mentioned that Ron had anything to do with this build. My comments are not related in that way. If you can not grasp the finer points of discussion so be it. If you can not carry a conversation without insults so be it. I will continue to converse with my fellow boaters, in a manner of my choosing, and not be concerned with your lack of understanding, of the finer points of communication.

Unkle Krusty

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34 minutes ago, Unkle Crusty said:

Well thank you for that Mad. Part of the discussion concerns how different companies have handled product failure. Have you been able to notice the connection?  My comments fit that criteria. However if it pleases you, I could ask you to review my posts B4 sending. If Oyster had used Ron Holland's calculations, and used quality building methods, the keel would still be attached.

Unkle Krusty

 

13 minutes ago, Unkle Crusty said:

I never mentioned that Ron had anything to do with this build. My comments are not related in that way. If you can not grasp the finer points of discussion so be it. If you can not carry a conversation without insults so be it. I will continue to converse with my fellow boaters, in a manner of my choosing, and not be concerned with your lack of understanding, of the finer points of communication.

Unkle Krusty

So explain what you mean by Ron Holland?

 

 

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On 2/24/2018 at 12:22 PM, Unkle Crusty said:

But for another issue from Hobie. I was a dealer, and they send a message: " We have discovered a problem with the new Hobie 18, where the forward cross beam meets the hulls. We are working on a fix, do not sell any boats, do not sail any boats " So I had to park hull 193, the one I was sailing. Shortly thereafter I got a phone call from a glass guy in Seattle. He asked where is Penticton, I am on my way, a pile of stuff will also arrive. And that is what happened. He strengthened the hulls with glass rods. Then he asked, which way is Montreal?  I am thinking 3 weeks total time from the first notification.

Unkle Krusty

As a dealer and as a customer, I've found that Hobie handles product defect/warranty issues better than any other boat manufacturer with which I have experience. It costs them a lot of money to do things like replace my out of warranty hull when it cracked, but they did. And they bought plenty of customer loyalty with all that money.

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As a dealer and as a customer, I've found that Hobie handles product defect/warranty issues better than any other boat manufacturer with which I have experience. It costs them a lot of money to do things like replace my out of warranty hull when it cracked, but they did. And they bought plenty of customer loyalty with all that money.

That was my point about referring to Hobie and others, with respect to taking care of the products they sold. GM failed with the Saturn key problem. Oyster failed with their keel problem.

Hobie stepped up and fixed their problems. Ron Holland laid bare his design guidelines. For the most part the manufacturer and the dealer, do not want a product to break. ( Keeping quiet about Chinese junk ) But when and if something does break, it needs to be fixed, sooner rather than later.

At the opposite ends of this spectrum, and going back quite a few years, would be Honda and Triumph motorcycles.

I used to know many of the Hobie dealers, but that was in the seventies.

Unkle Krusty

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You do realize you're not sending an email?

Your screen names right there at the top of every post you make. Signing off every time makes you look like an pompous ass.

 

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Well pleasing to excuse my pompous arsedness. If you were talkin to me. What then does adding " The more we know the less we show " indicate?

 

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You do realize you're not sending an email?

Your screen names right there at the top of every post you make. Signing off every time makes you look like an pompous ass.

 

Pompous, tu?

But he spells it with a K at the foot and a c at the head. That’s deep.  

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Pompous, tu?

But he spells it with a K at the foot and a c at the head. That’s deep.  

Nicely spotted Mr Ed. Signing off is common practice on other sites I visit, even tho our names are at the left. If it troubles Mr hobot of Riggers Hollow, then I do not mind refraining. I have also been to Rainier Brewing.

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Nicely spotted Mr Ed. Signing off is common practice on other sites I visit, even tho our names are at the left. If it troubles Mr hobot of Riggers Hollow, then I do not mind refraining. I have also been to Rainier Brewing.

This isn’t your Pornhub account. You don’t need to worry here. 

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Just don't let him find Riggers Hollow please.

hobot

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