Shad34

C-Class Little Cup news

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Hello everyone,

 

I hope I'm stepping on anyone's toe here, but it's been some time I haven't found any news from C-Class teams and the LittleCup. Last time I checked it was supposed to take place in 2017, somewhere in Germany, organized by Hydros again.

Does someone know something about that? Maybe Steve Clark or someone else who's familiar with it? 

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It is a long tale,  but nothing much is happening.

Two of the best European teams, Groupama and Hydros,  disbanded and sold their assets to an owner in the UAE.

Rumor has it that some of the stuff has been broken.

Fred Eaton is inactive for various reasons, and reassembling his team will present challenges.

The Sentient Blue Team has moved, had babies and spent a few years building a very nice A like catamaran, but hasn't done anything to improve Alpha.

Airbus ( Norman Wijker &al) have no money time or energy.

PLVI was given to a university team which, I guess has figured out how to rig the boat but not much more.

I am one old guy with a pile of broken stuff and no team.  I have ideas, but not enough time and little encouragement do test them.

The ETS Rafele  team has built a new platform and will be at foiling week in Miami testing with straight foils. They are the only group that has made any effort at all.

Further, until May 2017 it seemed that the America's Cup was doing everything that we would or could do.  So whatever talent existed to execute a C Class effort was employed or committed to those efforts.  It could be argued that we had won. The America's cup was being sailed in "our" boats ( ie Wing Sail Catamarans) and they were fighting the foil development wars with many times more assets than we could muster.  Perhaps it was time to release the hostages and declare victory.

That changed with the New Zealand win, and we are trying to understand if there is a course forward for the C Class. 

I wish it was better news, but we seem to be right back where we were in the 1990s.

SHC

 

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Steve, thanks a lot for your answer and all those details.

 

I've been following closely the Little Cup for more than 25 years now. You are one of my childhood heroes winning it back in 96 in such a fashion. I've even did a summer internship with Rémi Laval Jeantet, an hydrodynamicist  at the time heavily involved with the OTIP challenge and the America's Cup, working on a small speed foiling project in the south of France.

I feel very fortunate you took time, here!

 

I do agree that somehow, you C Class guys won in the 2010s, having winged catamarans in the America's Cup. It was a blast to follow them. I had hoped it would make the C Class a laboratory for those team and Groupama didn't make me wrong. That said and even though the NZ win changed it somehow, that's not all about the Little Cup.

For me that trophy represented 3 very special things:

-first, with its box design rule you can do absolutely everything, which can and and has been crazy!

-then and equally important, it requires a team effort with a human scale. For instance, you don't need hundreds of millions of $/€ to compete (I am not saying it is cheap, of course). In a sense it is probably far more sustainable than the America's Cup, in the long run.

-finally the gentleman spirit and fellow feeling associated with that competition.

 

You're bringing sad news for the state of the C-Class indeed, but I like the comparison you're making with the 90s. We had a huge gat with a bright revival!

Now I'm an economist working in academics and racing Solings and Stars on the Seine at the very Old CVP in Paris. I used to own and race a A cat but not anymore. That said I'm more passionate about the LittleCup than ever, even though I'm no naval architect or engineer.

Do you know if, as you did with Fred Eaton, the groupama team has been open to share their design ? That would be a great step toward another bright future, for instance.

 

Pierre-Jean

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Pierre Jean,

Do you know if, as you did with Fred Eaton, the groupama team has been open to share their design ? That would be a great step toward another bright future, for instance.

 

When I was at Falmouth in september 2013, the only team which locked its door to maintain confidentiality on their boat, was GroupamaC,

So they did not meet exactly the "Open Source" spirit which was among the traditional values of the Little Cup.

For sure Cammas brought the cup to a new level, but as he had to comply with his sponsor requirements, he was managing a business more than attending to a sailing competition.

If he refused to give his useless wing to ETNZ after the capsize in the cup, it is probably because Groupama has no interest in developing its insurance business in Kiwiland.

So as you can see the LAC has changed a little bit.

I met Remi for the first time in 1986 when he was trying to work for Le Maout and his Formula 40.

Next time you have time for a beer in Paris let me know by PM.

Best Regards

EK

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Hi Erwan and thanks for those informations. 

I had heard about Groupama not being very open with their design indeed. That said, it was a while ago, and with a clear AC goal in mind.  Right now, why wouldn't they share if asked by serious people?

As for the beer, with pleasure, I sent you a PM :)

 

PJC

Twitter Link because that's nice to talk about C Class Cats!

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20 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

I wish it was better news, but we seem to be right back where we were in the 1990s.

How much difference would it make to take the same approach, spirit, and technology into the B-class?  With M20 and Tornado offering off the shelf platforms, and the Vampire project working on foils, the barrier to entry should be a lot lower.  Though to include Vampire, B-class rules would have to be modified either to allow greater beam or not to count foils, and I think she has greater sail area.

And if you want to open up platforms, you could abandon beam limits to allow in trimarans, or limit cumulative hull length to allow triscaphs, like Loisier 3000 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmwXNJD8yfE), or Trifoilers.  And if you don't want to see a 12 metre long variant of Blue Arrow (http://www.news.johnclaridgeboats.co.uk/2014/11/the-americas-cup-first-foil-assisted.html), you could limit the sum of squares of hull lengths, sail area, and perhaps rig height, and leave everything else open.

Either way, how much difference would going smaller make to the time and money required?

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If you're going to propose a new class, how about going back to Little America's Cup and do a small version of the new AC monohull rule?  30 foot water walking lizards would be interesting.

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BSnail,

  The B-Class cats are now decidedly foiling- F20FCS, Vampire as you mention.. Wingsails + foiling don't work all that well, Bora proved that with the Moth, Hydros confirmed it at the last LAC. Well, the AC72's, 45F's and 50's showed it was fine with a massive budget and a large enough platform plus pro sailors to react in time to save the boat and rig in most situations.

The other note is cutting 5' off the hull length and 4' off the beam doesn't drastically change logistics as a 10' wide boat is still a big pain to deal with transportation wise.

Finally, at the moment a lot is going on in the A cat class. I think a full wing sail could make an appearance there again at some point as the focus is heavily on aero at the moment. It's also a lot less expensive class to play around in and logistically simpler than boats that require their own shipping container.

All that being said I do hope to see the C class back at it at some point and with the move to monohulls for the next cup cycle maybe it will happen. Groupama C was a sight to behold and I hope for histories sake the platform is intact. From a purely technical standpoint I would LOVE to know the layup schedules and total hull weight of that platform...

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6 hours ago, samc99us said:

Finally, at the moment a lot is going on in the A cat class. I think a full wing sail could make an appearance there again at some point as the focus is heavily on aero at the moment.

Well said Sam,

You should add, that the main advantage of a wingsail are not only in the aero issue.

 A wing does not need a pulley block on the rear beam so:

1-Foiling tacks and gybes should be easier.

2-No more stress on the rear beam with the pulley block and long leech requiring high load to be flat enought(=little twist) for apparent wind when foiling windward.

3-Moving some area in front of the mast rotation axis, allow to move the foil accordingly and it increases the wheel base and narrow the high load area of the platform between foils / front cross-beam/ shrouds /lateral stays.

It should be reasonnable to expect new generation A-Cat with removeable cross-beams from the hull.

(After all, GroupamaC was not a one piece boat, and she seemed stiff enough to foil with a reasonnable stability in many wind/sea conditions.)

............and a splitted wing in order to be able to pack a bunch of boats in a 20 feet container and minimize carbon footprint for transport, as this issue will come sooner or later.

Overall these new A-Cat generation will be made of a strong main cross-beam which will bear most of the big loads of the (foils + mast foot + lateral stays) so the use of the best technology will be concentrated on a "little" part of the platform instead on the whole platform, while hulls could require only basic technologies as an A-Cat hull has enough inertia to address the front stays' loads at the bows and rudder winglets' lift at the back with fiberglass/foam sandwidch/vinylester.

So a wing could lead to cheaper boats could it ?

In order not to be off topic, I could have presented this point differently:

Can GroupamaC be a benchmark for the future of the A-Cat ?

 

Cheers

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Disadvantage of the Wing..... 2 person set up. Damage on capsize.  Increased pitching, may be less of an issue on a Foiler however the extra weight aloft won’t be positive.  Increased weight on an A that is already over the 75kg mark.

The big plus for a wing on a non foiler was the extra drive you can develop downwind.  An A now days is looking to teduce power and flatten out the rig for less drag downwind.

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You are right on every points, 

But a wing is not always a 2/3 elements wing like for C-Cat, it can be a single element wing/soft sail with a morphing section, as we do not need huge HP in the section, because we have high apparent wind

The weight of the main tube for a wing like the one designed/Build for an A-Cat 10 years ago/ 7 m long/ was around  4.1 kg.(Thanks to HALL SPARS)

The wing should be as crash proof as existing rigs, otherwise no future, I agree. But is easier to achieve with a morphing structure, which is flexible in many points, than with stiff symetrical wing sections arrangements.

I feel confident a clever guy will suss out a solution if there is some significant performance pick up to be expected.

Cheers 

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I agree with many of your points Erwankerauzen, though the one big issue remains the transportation and rigging hassle of the wing. The A is beautiful because it can be launched and rigged by 1 person. The wing sail eliminates that, and is ultimately why Hall abandoned the concept, coupled with the increased pitching moment that didn't increase upwind performance and may hurt the foilers. Personally I would like to give it a try, but finding time to build a wing isn't easy.

Structurally, I don't see moving back to foam or vinylester. Epoxy costs are minor compared with vinylester and you get better fatigue life (though only minor if any increase in initial stiffness), the biggest reason to use vinylester is to use gelcoat which is less workload than fairing and painting but painted boats generally have more material in them so are stiffer. In the case of the A-Cat, I don't think the hulls can be built much lighter (they are only single skin carbon on each side of noemx) with drastic cost increases attained by going to the non crimped fibers Groupama used, plus returning to the fragile nature of some of the way earlier boats. Weight at the moment is pretty well concentrated in the foils, and the fully bonded beams are going to be lighter than a bolted connection no matter what, though perhaps as you say some of the rear beam weight could move into sorting those out. The Groupama C beam connection looks really slick, similar to the Diam 24; none of the bolted beamed A's (mine including) have such a nice and rigid connection. I bonded my platform because the minor advantages of an non-bonded platform didn't make sense to me, namely being able to transport the boat on a car roof rack or repairing one hull at a time. Most of the fleet seems to agree with the new C-board boats and older C-board boats (DNA, Nikita) featuring fully bonded platforms. At less than 8' wide, its not a huge deal, and perhaps the biggest advantage would be in shipping.

T_A

That large mast wasn't proven to be better than the current rig setup (which is highly refined). I do wonder if the Smyth rig would pan out on the A?

Finally, I'll say it would really be nice to have all the design details of Groupama C made public or limited release at least. I think that may have stagnated the class some, without having the specifications for your baseline competition available, how can you build a better boat?

 

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Thanks Sam for taking time to write this long post and feeding the ongoing debate.

A C-Cat wing is around 40 feet long and 60 kg heavy, so it requires special care.

for a 17 kg 14 sqm soft wing for instance, a stainless hinge as provided by Greg Goodall for decades could make it for one person rigging.

I mentionned vinylester to illustrate that concentration of stress and strain on one little piece (main crossbeam) could "ultimatly" allow low tech for the hulls whitout giving up stiffness.

The leading edge of this large mast is smartly designed, unfortunatly, I am afraid that its inability to twist, would offset other advantage, especially downwind.

Cheers 

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The difference between stepping a wing and a normal mast isn't the weight but the fact that you are now hoisting your sail at the same time. In anything more than 5-6kts of breeze this is definitely a 2 person task.

The VPLP designed soft wing sail might be a nice alternative for the A.

In the C-class, the question remains what would a revival look like? Clearly full foiling. J's or Z's or something else entirely? Who has the design resources that Groupama did to successfully embark on a full foil design program (in conjunction with Phantom International I might add)?

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Hey @Steve Clark- I am just a dumb curious weekend warrior.  More cruiser and experimenter than racer maybe.  But is this fair?

It seems to me that the C class thrived and revived when sport and technology were at a place and pace that meaningful advances could be accomplished within the context of knowledge and budget of an enlightened and open minded individuals.  Almost backyard building.  But now the C class catamarans are wing sail foiling platforms (call it a corner of the box rule for lack of a better term) and the improvements are going to be more marginal and far more expensive as is always the case when working in a corner.  It seems like its all about wings, aero, foils, and foiling systems and it appears all of that needs big bucks/budgets, big teams and very precise highly exotic builds for even marginal gains.

If that is even remotely close to true then the difficulty of another revival aligned with the spirit of the C class past seems unlikely but I am curious your opinion Steve....

  *  Do you think the next fastest boat in the C class box rule is actually a catamaran and if not what shape do you think it takes?

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Suppose you removed the word catamaran from the C Class , kept the maximum dimensions ( 25,14,300) and removed the crew requirement.  I guess the fastest boat would be a Moth or Kite Foil.  Presently people are talking about A Class speeds that are faster than C Class. Or maybe not. You never really know until you put the boats on the water at the same time in the same place doing the same things.  For as long as I can remember, people have been claiming speeds faster than the C Class, but I haven't ever really been passed by many boats that weren't other C Class catamarans.

If I had to chose my weapon for a small boat brawl, with no restrictions, I would probably show up with a C Class Catamaran. They are really good sailing machines.

 

Franck Cammas probably said it best......The boat requires attention and commitment disproportionate to its size.  I actually think this is a good thing.  Although experience shows that the thing wrong with the C Class is that it isn't big or expensive enough.

SHC

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I am sure Fredo would be willing to share any design information we had at this point for those willing to undertake a serious campaign. Our show is pretty much shut down forever at this point due to marital issues, being old, shit like that. Canaan and FYH are both resting comfortably in their trailers waiting for Fredo's sons to be old enough to enjoy.

A smaller platform might revive some things but they won't be anything like a C-cat.

To this day, Canaan is still my most favorite boat ever to sail. She was just a pure joy with a grand total of four strings on it. Silent through the water, light, agile, nothing more on the boat than exactly what is required for the job. Granted she's not as fast as the foiling boats which is a shame but she was just so perfect to sail. A smaller boat could never equal what the 25' of performance offers with a 44' tall rig. It's hard to describe to people who never sailed it, which is a very short list.

To echo others, wings are a PITA from a care and feeding perspective but they really do offer incredible performance.

As for Groupama, someone clever could duplicate the layup performance at this point without too much bother. to me the slickest part of that boat was the canting wing. I spent a few illicit minutes under the hood on that thing one day and somewhere around here have the sketches for how it all works. for the cost of a few beers or rum such info could be shared in a dark alley.

I suspect its going to be another period of dormancy for the C-cat for a little while.

I was very lucky to be able to participate in the class for a decade, it was a very special time that also lead to some other awesome opportunities. (Happy anniversary BTW to team BMW Oracle).

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1 hour ago, Steve Clark said:

 Although experience shows that the thing wrong with the C Class is that it isn't big or expensive enough.

Not what I was expecting at all @Steve Clark.  Interesting.

[Edit to add respect greatly what you and @blunted did] But color me confused.  Could you or the others who made the little ac what is was prior to Groupama, have done it if it was was bigger and more expensive?  Just a wanker but my uneducated guess was that the excessive costs and now marginal gains was what was killing it?  I mean even if you knew every detail re Groupama could you - and how many of the other prior competitors - afford to compete and build a Groupama beater?  Or take on a Groupama v2?

My thought experiment was that if - as you said - you simply took the maximum dimensions of the box (25,14,300)  and kept a ww/lw course, that the little ac would get interesting and viable again perhaps.  For folks like you and those individuals (not multinational corporation funded teams) you might see as able to pick up that torch.  Maybe.  Or maybe not.

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My impression is that now everyone is stuck into the corners as you say chasing certain gains. The only way to break that is someone taking a big design gamble to blow out one whole wall of the design space. If you can do it without spending literally $1M then you could make it all interesting again. As long as everyone says that GA is the boat to beat and we can only beat it by being incrementally better in 26 different categories of boat building, design and sailing, then you'll be stuck trying to race GA.

If you simply kick over the whole design space and start again from scratch knowing what we know now, you might well be able to come up with a boat that can slay GA, at least in some conditions. That's the beauty of the rule, it allows for a huge amount of fuckery. Someone just needs the balls to go for it.

Look at what Paul did with Sail rocket, that started as a little scale model on a beach and ended up being the fastest project in the world. C-class allows for that same progressive thinking on boat design for sure.

The really big money these days in the boats is almost entirely in the foils. Nothing about the boats is particularly cheap but the foils are a black of hole of dollars from tooling to super high mod pre-preg and post mold machining. Yes costs are coming down but they are still a massive chunk of any budget and its still where the biggest gains around a course are to be made in anything resembling a current configuration of boat. Wings aren't cheap either especially if you keep slamming into the water at high velocity, they don't like that. But wings are awesome to sail with and super responsive.

If you made it more expensive there is a certain class of people who you might attract to the class. it would end up being super-pro but could be more vital.

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Add in an amateur element, skipper, team etc and you may get back to the grass roots ethos that was once there and it would keep costs down by the shear fact that amateur teams do not have the funds to really high tec the boats.

The other big one that keeps racing in other sports costs down, is that the other competitors can buy your equipment for knock down set in the rules, prices at the end of the comp, which means that each wing for example has only a set value of materials otherwise you can see your wing being bought at a discount to fit to his or her boat at the next event. It works well in some classes in motor racing.  

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Well Fredo and I were amateur but the next 8 people on the team were not. The boys in the shed put in many hours every week paid and unpaid to keep the show on the water and the bits all flying together in some formation that could be mistaken for a boat. No weight limit equals as fickle and delicate a boat as you dare to build and operate. You'd need a lot of very skilled amateurs to keep it all going smoothly especially come game day.

On most training days we'd field two boats which also meant two tenders, so at a minimum that's 6 people on the water, plus any additional coaches, designers, camera people, grid girls etc. Just putting a wing up on a single boat is a four person job and they have to be experienced to do it right. There is no room for mistakes in that procedure.

As for used equipment, Fred was always selling off old bits to any that wanted them at fire sale prices to get new people into the class. some technology we would not sell but we were pretty open about what we were up to at any given time. We learned from the Steve the open source ethos of sorts but we also learned to make people work a little bit for it, we would never just give up a whole set of drawings for example. You had to show some commitment and make the pilgrimage to earn the spot in the tent to see how things were done etc. That kept the tire kickers at bay for the most part.

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Learning to fly in the way back time.

5a8497bec1992_C-Classawsome1.thumb.JPG.50591af27001931fc20d3baf94578bf1.JPG

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This was literally the first 5 minutes of C-class sailing we ever did. You've gotta start somewhere.

Thanks Fredo and Rob, that was a magical day. Feeling the POWER!!!!!

PLVI-003.jpg.65025920f82ea29646f8898b2d57fd52.jpg

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Kite foiler would be the fastest in more than 6 knots. Less and that and any boat with a displacement mode will win as we'll be siting in the water with a wet sleeping bag :P

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Wow thanks for all those inputs,  @Steve Clark and  @blunted !

And Yes, I saw the videos about the canadian engineering school team in Miami, too. Can't wait to see how they perform.

 

Blunted, you're saying that with making the C-Class more expensive you might attrack more people. How so? I am a bit confused about that since, as Wess pointed out, the class seemed to thrive when the entry cost was lower (for several reasons).

 

Just a (dumb?) idea, Hydross was trying something I think is clever, associating C-class racing with the environment and sustainability. Maybe there could be one step further with including in the class rules the mandatory use  of eco-friendly, fully recyclable, sustainable technology ? It could become the spearhead of a new type of yacht racing, probably not cheap at all, but with many industrial applications.

 

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Well it was Steve who suggested that by making it more expensive it could attract more money and participation. I can sympathize with that in as much as there is a definable "luxury effect" for certain parts of markets be they cars, horses, houses or yachts. It's a cultural issue not a logical issue. If you want to see luxury effect in action track the rise of LVMH over the last 20 years and how their pricing and branding models work. I hesitate to prognosticate too much on such things as I barely have any money at all and for me it was very much a passion play. Steve should and or could elaborate upon his supposition.

Eco-friendly class? Most people / sailors would be mortified if they totted up the true cost (Environmental) of building high tech boats and operating them. I am not going to pretend its not a bad thing. The simple reality is that high tech composite construction consumes a shit ton of materials many of which cannot be recycled in any appreciable way. It's very unfortunate to be sure. For my part where we can be sensible and cut back on needless consumption of materials, fuels etc, great, lets do that. But the reality is it is rank hypocrisy to presume that any high tech performance sailing team is a seriously "green effort". To my point we'd run two tenders for 8 hours a day on the water. It is non-negotiable with these boats or similar, you need support on the water, ergo you will burn a few hundred litres of fuel every day you go sailing. If you ever want to see true operational consumption in action you only have to watch a full sailing day at an AC compound, its astounding. how much carbon is consumed.

As for building the boats. for every pound of finished boat you end up with you must surely leave 5 pounds in the garbage if not a lot more. Tooling is the worst culprit as its big and heavy. If it only gets used once, then a design changes, even worse it goes in the bin with little hope of even being modded to suit the next design iteration. You cannot recycle it in any meaningful way. You can chop it up, you can burn it really hot so it doesn't off-gas into the atmosphere, you can bury it where it generally is pretty inert especially if you put in a dump lined with bentonite clay so it cannot affect ground water, but generally you cannot do too much useful with used up tooling. Likewise the many miles of breather cloth, vac-bag cloth, bleeder, brushes, squeegies, mix pots, cans of matrix, respirator filters and half used tins of paint and primer that get produced in the making of a composite boat of any sort. AKA consumables in the industry parlance. Use once, toss out, or clean with really aggressive compounds and chemicals and then use a few more times, its not a good choice either way.

To my mind if you want eco-friendly boats, build wooden 8 meters, 6 meters, wooden Optimists whatever. They last forever, 80 years, if cared for properly (Which still involves glue and paint) and they are somewhat biodegradable at the end of their life and the metal in them can be recycled. For total miles sailed their carbon footprint per mile is infinitely smaller, but the trade off is sailing a lot slower than a high flying water spider wing thing. Full disclosure I grew up sailing a 50 year old wooden 8 meter and also Optimists. I really do believe that wood boats are way more eco-friendly, the slower and more sturdy the better as they can last forever. The only two boats I own now are a 65 year old woodie power boat and a recycled canoe salvaged from a dump.

You'll note I am somewhat opinionated about this. For good reason, I am an Architect who designs and builds buildings all day long. We spend forever working on and with recycled materials, materials with low carbon impact, energy systems based on renewables, you name it, we have to deal with eco-this, eco-that all day long. Buildings between being built and or operated consume something like a third of all the energy mankind creates and consumes. Sailing by comparison is a pimple on an elephants ass of total human energy consumption. Not to say its not important but it barely registers in the greater scheme of things. I can save the consumption of more carbon in an hour of drawing at my desk than I could by a decade of C-class carbon penny pinching. The Hydros-like shit was all just green washing as far as I am concerned.

It should not be the job of a class to "save the world". If you are seriously concerned about carbon consumption by sailing, stop sailing, stop driving to regattas, stop sending out tons of coach boats, stop dropping shit in the water at the marina, stop building marinas, stop building boats, stop using gas guzzlers for RC boats, stop buying beer for sailing days. Well you see where that goes pretty quickly, you'll end up at home in your Yurt wrapped in an unbleached alpaca hair blanket sipping tea dreaming about how fun it used to be to sail before being consumed by guilt.

I think a class of boats, any class can agree to be stewards of the oceans and lakes they sail upon and do the best job they can within reason to not burn fuel needlessly, not pollute, create awareness amongst land people that oceans and lakes are really important and we shouldn't dump random shit into them and so on. Oh wait, we mostly do that already don't we? So yes, I want to save the oceans and make them healthy for future generations, low carbon high tech boats won't be the way we do it, they may play a role as does sail-drone (Love those things) for example but the carbon footprint of the boat and campaign itself may not be anything meaningful.

On the flip side, its interesting that some C-class sailing has been more like a fundamental sailing pure science lab. Things like developing wings were done almost in a pure research environment that lead to the greater community learning about how things could work alternatively in the context of sailing. To me that's the real utility of the C-class, its utterly unrestricted free environment with just enough constraints (25,14,300, race course with rules) to make problems land in the real world. It's a scary place for an owner and as I said it takes big balls to step out on the ledge and really try shit that nobody else has before, the risk of failure is high. (Off yer rocker, Orion, some of the wings we built the public never saw and so on as but a few examples I had a hand in). C-class has always been the playground where almost anything goes and its celebrated by the class and its proponents. I think every time it lurches towards being more commercialized and more hi-end pro, you'll get more conservative design decisions as they are beholden to conservative commercial decisions about having good close events with functional boats. Commercial sponsors don't really want to see an on the water version of Fluegtag in my experience, they want to see the "best sailors" in "close racing" with "exciting personalities". They don't always want to see the batshit crazy people that seem to accumulate in the more colorful corners of the class.

So Shad34, good question for sure. It's funny that your avatar is that of OTIP's wing, one of the more "out-there" boats ever built. One of my favorites as a child too, really cool concept. Illegal in the C-class today and barely controllable in its day but a very cool concept to be sure.

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I was one of those poor souls, barely 12 years old, fondly supporting OTIP at the time. Thanks for the reminder :P

The picture you posted was taken by Christian Fevrier (I'm almost certain) and published in the biggest french sailing magazine at the time. I grew up with it in mind for a long time ^^

 

I very much appreciate your expert thoughts on the environmental impact of those high tech boats. It is really precious to me as I'm exactly pondering those issues, on a very personal level indeed.

I was just only scratching the surface. At the same time, I do understand from what you're saying that it is only a drop of water in a vast ocean. I am working in development economics and obviously very concerned by all things related to our future (climate change, limited resources, you name it). Definitely not on the negative growth side of the spectrum, and still pretty technophile, but very much aware of what we may very well face in the next few decades. For those interested, a very recent paper by my boss and colleagues about those climate issues.

Do you know of any credible substitute that would have much less impact on the environment, by the way? Or maybe that's something not invented yet?

 

As for the idea of an alleged eco-friendly competition, I totally get your point and forget about it, for now :)

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BTW blunted, you were terrific in Newport :D

CClassWorldDay2FleetRace017_800.jpg

CClassWorldDay2FleetRace019_800.jpg

Little_Americas_Cup_CClassWorld2010178_800.jpg

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"Do you know of any credible substitute that would have much less impact on the environment, by the way? Or maybe that's something not yet invented yet? "

Off the top of my head, no I do not know of any credible substitute. Now to be fair its an extremely context dependent question. Substitute for what exactly? Carbon fiber and epoxy? Or fuel in coach boats? Or materials used in tooling?

There are many links in the consumption chain and each one could be addressed individually as it is in my industry. There are almost always trade offs and compromises. Take solar and wind energy. Lots of people like to go on about how important and clean they are. But the chemicals used to make them are some of the most toxic on earth, the mining of those minerals can be very bad for the local environments, the same for the batteries used to store the power. what about recycling them? What about all the birds killed by the wind turbines? Different problems created upstream and downstream just deployed more locally and in different places, the cost of the problems are in fact simply offloaded to third world countries so we can lie to ourselves in the first world that we are so green.

As you know there are a great many upstream and downstream calculations to make on the impact of any technology.

Some fiber examples that might work for replacement would be hemp or basalt fiber. But it doesn't help with the epoxy / matrix issue which is still a petrochemical product. It doesn't help with end of life disposal or recycle issues for composite fiber products.

I always get a giggle out of green peace types who want to ban petro products entirely. They have no idea what percentage of oil pumped from the ground must be used as feedstock for industrial chemicals and plastics that make the modern world go round.

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My question was not very specific, sorry about that. I was asking about the things related to high end boat construction, so about materials and tools. Not all related stuff (transport, fuel, etc) which I'm much more knowledgeable about (as your example on rare-resource extensive solar and wind energy, or the export of pollution in developing countries...).

Again, thanks for your answer. 

I'm definitely not saying we should ban pretro products, that would make absolutely no sense. I like the idea of addressing individually each need and looking for substitutes, though. I know there may be performance tradeoffs, but that looks like a decent effort to consent to. 

 

Back to the initial topic, I might be a bit sardonic here, but are you suggesting that a Larry Ellison/AC35 type of event, every 2 years, with luxury sponsors, high profile sailors and VIP accomodations could be something worth exploring for the C-Class, as something cheaper that those AC50 beasts, but with the same excitement? That could look like a merger between the last AC and the superfoiler grand prix. Actually, I might very well fall for it :) 

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2 minutes ago, Shad34 said:

My question was not very specific, sorry about that. I was asking about the things related to high end boat construction, so about materials and tools. Not all related stuff (transport, fuel, etc) which I'm much more knowledgeable about (as your example on rare-resource extensive solar and wind energy, or the export of pollution in developing countries...).

Again, thanks for your answer. 

I'm definitely not saying we should ban pretro products, that would make absolutely no sense. I like the idea of addressing individually each need and looking for substitutes, though. I know there may be performance tradeoffs, but that looks like a decent effort to consent to. 

 

Back to the initial topic, I might be a bit sardonic here, but are you suggesting that a Larry Ellison/AC35 type of event, every 2 years, with luxury sponsors, high profile sailors and VIP accomodations could be something worth exploring for the C-Class, as something cheaper that those AC50 beasts, but with the same excitment? Actually, I might very well fall for it :) 

Larry and Co coming in on high end stuff? Again, I am loathe to speak to it too much. As I suggested there is most certainly a luxury effect in some circumstances, had I known the key to unlocking it there is a good chance that Steve and I and others would have done that already. It would of course pervert the nature of the class thereafter. The luxury effect is rooted in exclusivity. The hair-brained characters who hang out in the C-class are generally those not to be invited to "those kinds of parties". Notwithstanding our crashing NYYC for the 2010 event.

Fibres etc, well you got my answer already on that. don't know of anything available right now but I'll ask Rob who deals with fibers all day long in composites. He and I had looked at Basalt for some other applications for a while, not light, but strong and non-reactive non-corrosive so good for stuff like rebar in concrete etc.

Economic impact study. I got through about half of it, interesting hypothesis. Strange that it did not consider two other major paths or possibilities, 5th path of Geo-engineering. It seems to me that this will be where we end up weather we like it or not. 6th path to consider, total economic disruption due to human nature. e.g. War and hundreds of millions of environmental change refugees. Thankfully Germany and Sweden are prototyping the latter experiment for us so we can see how Psuedo-socialist political structures work out when married to pathological altruism and presumably fleeing capital.

Re Newport, you're too kind sir. I happened to have a good day and was supported by an incredible team and our fiercest competitors had a very unfortunate day to boot.

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I was not refering to Larry Ellison and his team, per se, but to their vision of what the AC could have become. And I obviously didn't want to make you uncomfortable about that. I'm sorry if I did.

The hypothesis of a luxury type of event would offer a huge tradeoff between the perpetuation of the class and the initial spirit that would certainly be missing. Since I've always been an avid but distant spectator, I suppose I could cope with the later for the sake of keeping the class alive, but not without a twinge anyway.

I fear that with the always increasing expenses related to high end stuff, we've step past a threshold where even somehow wealthy amateurs cannot decently compete against pro teams. That's too bad. That said, does someone have an estimation for the budget Groupama team had in 2013 and 2015?

 

 

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Another couple of questions not related to the previous one: 

-would it make sense to allow the use of a gennaker for downwind?

-Should that happen, what about having 3 crew instead of 2?

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I suppose the thing that most struck me about the Cs, after attending the event at Falmouth, was that really each boat requires a substantial team. In the development dinghies I used to sail the two of you were enough to rig the boat, put it away, repair it etc and the shore facilities required were minimal. The Cs really like having 4 or 5 people at least to rig them, they require covered wind proof accomodation on the shore, its all a lot more difficult. Its much more like motorsport where at any kind of high level the team is much more than just the competitors. I'm not sure an awful lot of this goes away if you scaled down to say B class. 

So to me a big question is how is it where can a culture change come from to have teams of more than the actual active sailors. 

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I think the B class is inherently manageable by a team of 2 if you don't have a wing. I don't see a C-cat without a wing working without at least 3 people, probably 4 given the massive rig either way. Beyond that, without a wing though the boats just aren't the same level of high tech and cool.  Adding more rules doesn't keep the whacky innovation happening, and without the AC it is going to fall on the C-class to continue pushing the box in the multihull world (and the A to some extent).

@Shad34, with the foiling, gennakers/spinnakers simply aren't needed. They are too draggy. Even without, the C is the epitome of aerodynamic efficiency. Even well designed spinnakers are the opposite, bringing boatloads of increased power but extra drag. The C's don't need more power as best I can tell (rather the opposite in many conditions).

@Fat Point Jack, maybe. Foil development is really expensive. However, D3 have done a new foil for the Phantom Ultimate that would probably work pretty well on a C (remember, Groupama C used a version of the Phantom Elite J-board). They may also do a Z-board for a reasonable (in c-class terms) budget. More and more designers are gaining experience with the foils so the costs are becoming a bit more reasonable, its mostly the tooling that is expensive vs. a straight board. Limiting foils limits the whack nature of the class IMO, and it is also where some of the most creative design solutions can come from. The expensive bit to me is still the wing especially in a foil crash, and the amount of team you need to support the wing+tuning of any high performance boat developed in secret. That being said I'm far from the expert, and would LOVE to see the boats make a come back in any form.

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Smart comment Sam,

 Displacements with 2 men crew are similar for Nacra 20 =Phantom=C-Class, so it seems logical they could share similar foils even if righting moments are different.

Just like for gennakers, which are not usefull because C-Cat are quickly overpowered by her  huge apparent wind, since they have foils,  2/3 elements wingsails might be a too big engine for these apparent winds.

That is why when it comes to wingsail for cat foiler, I would look for single element wing which aims primarily to minimize all drags.

Happy week end

EK

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Chiming in as a long term lover of the C Class. (I remember reading with absolute awe about Miss Nylex when I was a kid.)

One thing that sort of worked for the AC was to limit development to one thing. I think the ultimate expression would have been a situation where each series froze a different part of the design. So one could imagine a Little Cup that used the C Class rule exactly as is, but added a per-series rule that froze the deign of a particular element, and thus concentrated effort elsewhere. So you could imagine organising a series where a specific foil design was chosen, either as an externally available part, or were the tooling could be amortised amongst all the boats. Next series perhaps the wing gets fixed - maybe based upon the previous winning boat's design. (Again with the possibility of shared tooling and part manufacture.) And so on. 

It has the advantage of hopefully making costs more manageable, but without touching the purity of the C-Class rule itself.

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On 2/11/2018 at 11:10 PM, samc99us said:

.. Wingsails + foiling don't work all that well, Bora proved that with the Moth, Hydros confirmed it at the last LAC.

Groupama had a wingsail and foiled far better than Hydros did.  The only thing Bora and Ben Hall proved is that it ain't a reliable solution for boats that flip over all the time.

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Clean,

  C-class cats flip. They flip at least the same, if not more while in foil borne configuration than straight or c board configuration. Do you disagree?

Either way, do you agree that  a crash at close to 40 kts has 77% more force than one at 30kts?

That is a lot more shredded bits in my book. The crashes become exponentially more expensive as speed rises. Wing sails are inherently expensive in the form we know. Perhaps that will change and I hope it does, there are some very unique and interesting solutions being proposed in other disciplines of the sport.

In the end, all I hope is there are enough crazy, brilliant and wealthy individuals to keep the C class alive.

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On 17.2.2018 at 11:18 AM, Erwankerauzen said:

 Displacements with 2 men crew are similar for Nacra 20 =Phantom=C-Class, so it seems logical they could share similar foils even if righting moments are different.

I can see that being true for the vertical loads, but I think the lateral loads do depend on righting moment.  Depending on how much lateral loads contribute to the total, righting moment may matter.

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3 hours ago, WetSnail said:

I can see that being true for the vertical loads, but I think the lateral loads do depend on righting moment.  Depending on how much lateral loads contribute to the total, righting moment may matter.

Lateral loads can be scale with the ratio of righting moment to mast height.

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You have misconstrued what I meant.

There have been more AC wings built in the last 4 years than C Class wings in the last 20. 

Which suggests that the problem with the C Class as opposed to the AC 72, 45, and 50 was that the C Class is too small and doesn't cost enough because t6he size and the cost are the only things that differentiate the two. When the AC50s were ripping around great sound, it was pretty easy to think that all of the relevant developments were being pursued, and that there really wasn't the need for a smaller boat that would let wankers like me pretend to be leaders in the development of sailing. The win by ETNZ and the subsequent reversion to monohulls with some variation of soft sails might revitalize interest in C Class. 

The developments in hydro foiling out of the America's Cup might make C Class deadly ( like 40 knot) fast.  Sometimes we wonder if that is even a good idea.

The ETS team are eager to promote the C Class as an inter university challenge. They have proven it is possible for students to design and build these boats and still carry a full academic load.  We will have to see what is possible,

SHC

 

 

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1 hour ago, Steve Clark said:

The ETS team are eager to promote the C Class as an inter university challenge. They have proven it is possible for students to design and build these boats and still carry a full academic load.  We will have to see what is possible,

SHC

I think there is a lot of value to this.  20 years ago I ran the Uni's Solar car team (badly) while also studying Naval Architecture full time.  Its a hard slog and pulling it off take careful management of sleep time tables and priorities.

Back then our team had an annual budget well in excess of $100K which was underwritten by the Faculty of Engineering but heavily subsided by other departs and sponsors.  The problem is getting the process up and running and convincing the school to back you which is like attracting sponsors and/or investors in the real world.  It becomes a chicken and egg problem.  Without a flagship event and proven value it is hard to get people to take the leap and when dealing with universities you have to be conscious they have a different set of priorities to the rest of the world.

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it looked there was a red French C Class at Shake a Leg last night taking the wing down after dark. Pretty cool looking.

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Cool videos of the Canadian C Class at the Foiling Week FB page. They had a talk about it, but I missed it.

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17 hours ago, WetSnail said:

I can see that being true for the vertical loads, but I think the lateral loads do depend on righting moment.  Depending on how much lateral loads contribute to the total, righting moment may matter.

You are perfectly right WetSnail, but I made the bet that as the C-Class are a little faster than the 18/20 feet boats, and as lift is proportional to Velocity squared, I guess that 10% in extra speed would translate in + 21% extra lift for the same foil (both lateral & vertical lift).

Regards

E

 

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On 14/02/2018 at 7:15 PM, Steve Clark said:

 Presently people are talking about A Class speeds that are faster than C Class.

Hi,

Re-reading this thread I wanted to notice how the above-mentionned remark can be information-rich:

It provides me with a great explanation, regarding the discrepancies I systematicaly exhibits, as soon as I compute A-Class figures with datas reported on forums or from "parking conversations":

1-From righting moment, apparent wind velocity & wind angle + rig aspect ratio, it is possible to get a rough idea of the driving force , using only a basic hand computer( Mine is HP 12-C from 1983) 

2-On the other hand we can compute all drags (aero+hydro), using well recognized proxy equations and coefficients.

So if everything would be correct, we should be able to "reconcilate" the figures and get:

3- Sum of all drags = driving force  (@ constant speed)

But to actually reconciliate these figures, I have to "cook" the friction coefficients to their lower theorical values , same for platform aero drag....crew drag on trapeze and so on..

But if actual boat velocities were slightly lower, so would be the drags (more than proportionnaly) , and would fit pretty well the computation of the driving force.

A SAILING ANARCHY thread could be dedicated to build polar curves for hitec boats (C-Class, A-Class Moth..GC32...) and be could be helpful for the whole community... with a dedicated moderator and  his... dedicated Excel Spreadsheet....

Happy week-end everybody

Erwan

 

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So what happened to the Invictus boat? Did it survive Falmouth intact? Did it make it to Geneva?

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On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 1:24 AM, Erwankerauzen said:

Hi,

Re-reading this thread I wanted to notice how the above-mentionned remark can be information-rich:

It provides me with a great explanation, regarding the discrepancies I systematicaly exhibits, as soon as I compute A-Class figures with datas reported on forums or from "parking conversations":

1-From righting moment, apparent wind velocity & wind angle + rig aspect ratio, it is possible to get a rough idea of the driving force , using only a basic hand computer( Mine is HP 12-C from 1983) 

2-On the other hand we can compute all drags (aero+hydro), using well recognized proxy equations and coefficients.

So if everything would be correct, we should be able to "reconcilate" the figures and get:

3- Sum of all drags = driving force  (@ constant speed)

But to actually reconciliate these figures, I have to "cook" the friction coefficients to their lower theorical values , same for platform aero drag....crew drag on trapeze and so on..

But if actual boat velocities were slightly lower, so would be the drags (more than proportionnaly) , and would fit pretty well the computation of the driving force.

A SAILING ANARCHY thread could be dedicated to build polar curves for hitec boats (C-Class, A-Class Moth..GC32...) and be could be helpful for the whole community... with a dedicated moderator and  his... dedicated Excel Spreadsheet....

Happy week-end everybody

Erwan

 

Are you sure you're computing the speeds correctly? Your saying "Sum of all drags = driving force  (@ constant speed)"  makes me doubt it, since the aero & hydro drags act in very different directions & cannot be simply added. I also think you would need something more powerful than a hand-held calculator to do the calculations. Even the relatively simple VPP's that I've written require several hundred lines of code. 

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Basic physics from Isaac Newton, Doug, but this century it has become fashionable to believe fantacy over science.

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Doug,

I understand you skepticism, and it is legitimate.

What, I can tell you, a VPP or a long suit of VBA would chew the job for you that is a no brainer.

If you wan to compute seriously, you should use at minima:

1-An Analysis software

2-A Solver.

But you can be the Analyst and the Solver yourslef with reasonnable consistency if not accuracy.

To be the solver you make itération by hand. As you have a rought idea what the parameters are:

You start with righting moment, and if at the end it doesn't match, you lower the CoE of your sail in your assumption, until it match.

My faith in hand calculations came after Mischa smoked Glenn at the Nederland National in  2015 with its first Deck-Sweeping sail, by a constant margin of 4 mn in 40 mn races.

Considering an Oswald coefficient from Tom Speer Homepage to hand-compute effective aspect ratios and effective lift coefficient can lead to interesting results.

For a global drag around 180N, (Floating mode at max righting moment)  The sail's induced drag plumeted from 44N to 27 N 

and effective lift coef rised  from 0.76 to 0.85 (afair).

(Of course, I didn t account the lower CoE with DS Sail, the marginal righting moment pick-up from both high and low pressure on the trampoline on each side of the sail foot... and so on, the boats are foiler and not floater anymore..  )

But I got consistent results, at least on a relative basis, which were supported by real life experience, and the 2 crews considered in this anecdoctical calculations, are not  2-left hands sailors, so I can assume they have a perfect rig trimming.

Regards

Erwan

PS: Doug, pay attention to Phil S' posts, he is CFD graduated from MIT (Prof Mark Drela), he knows much more than both of us.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Phil S said:

Not me, I am a retired civil engineer. No CFD knowledge.

 

That's pretty funny!

I do happen to be a retired aero engineer with some CFD experience (not that it makes any difference).

I'm not sure why Erwan was admonishing me to pay attention to your posts; I thought we were saying essentially the same thing.

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Phil S,

Sorry for the confusion, but the way you present your ideas (not only in this thread) testifies of your "engineer spirit".

That is why I was sure you were CFD specialist.

The basic message I wanted to advertize is: Don't be afraid by trying to make your own computations, even if not perfect, it will help you to understand well beyond  "parking conversations".

Just being able to put the basic first design step which is: The balance of forces and moments,

is already a significant leap forward to understand how our boat actually works.

The main problem is the lack of reliable polar datas for fast boats like C-Cat  A-Cat,  Moth.

Regards

Erwan

 

 

 

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HOT OFF THE PRESS....

Rumours of a "friendly" exhibition C Class regatta in Canada in September 2018!!??!!

Could be a chance for the class to become relevant again?

Let's see who comes out of the woodwork... :ph34r:

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On 15/02/2018 at 5:15 AM, Steve Clark said:

Suppose you removed the word catamaran from the C Class , kept the maximum dimensions ( 25,14,300) and removed the crew requirement.  I guess the fastest boat would be a Moth or Kite Foil.  ..............

SHC

When Steve as the man who dominated CCats for 25 years and who was hugely responsible for the class revival this century says something like this, designers surely now need to look in a different direction. This is from my 5a9889187d975_CMoth1.thumb.jpeg.cb3a46476c6897c464a292219e581c16.jpegbest CAD and CFD analysis, TLAR and P&P.

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On 20/02/2018 at 7:21 AM, Steve Clark said:

Which suggests that the problem with the C Class as opposed to the AC 72, 45, and 50 was that the C Class is too small and doesn't cost enough because t6he size and the cost are the only things that differentiate the two.

Sorry to be late to the party, but there is a significant difference other than cost between the 2. One is for the America's Cup, the oldest international trophy in sport. For centuries, it has been one of the most recognised pissing contests between the mega wealthy. While there was a time (pre AC multihulls) that the Little Cup was the coolest thing in sailing, it never established the same level of prestige as the AC. 

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13 hours ago, cantp1 said:

HOT OFF THE PRESS....

Rumours of a "friendly" exhibition C Class regatta in Canada in September 2018!!??!!

Could be a chance for the class to become relevant again?

Let's see who comes out of the woodwork... :ph34r:

Ah, a ghastly rumor for sure.

Canada? September? would they be fitting skates to sail at that time of year?

 

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In my day (the late 80's)...

  • the ICCT was almost totally amateur - only the builder got paid for time in the shed and the sailors were an investment banker, a dentist, an airline pilot and a surveyor
  • the boats were made of wood (ok, our's was fancy cold moulded ply and we were beaten by a boat with ply sides and deck with moulded bottom and 50% ply beams)
  • we remade foils from scratch over-night
  • my involvement was a college project (Masters degree) and a miliatary project (CFD with the UK's Royal Aircraft Establishment)
  • we had so many offers of assistance from kind, enthusastic observers that it was hard to keep track
  • it dominated our lives.

Beecher Moore, who wrote the original A,B,C rule absolutely loved it. 60 years on and he would be thrilled to see what his single side of paper has produced. Almost everyone who has once been in a team dreams of having another go...

C Class is so much cheaper than a Fast 40 or TP52 but there is generally no room on-board for the owner unless he's called Fred.

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post-51040-0-04591400-1481868946_thumb.jpgJust placed my Turbo charged Melvin/Morrelli class c catamaran uppost-51040-0-00931500-1481905269_thumb.jpeg for sale. Over $50k spent to convert her to soft sail, includes over size sails, pristine condition.

See classifieds.

Convert to foiler or just have one of the fastest non foilng beach cats in the world. 

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Any news from the canadian Rafale team? Weren't they suppose to make some big announcement this spring after the miami foiling week?

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Hello fellow wing nuts,

Yes there will be racing in Montreal this weekend. For all the action, go to this facebook event:

https://www.facebook.com/events/1976805022341020/

I will try to post pictures everyday and some videos of starts and finishes. Hopefully some small interviews and boat walkthrough as well. 

 

Weapons present:

Steve Clark + Aethon hull + Cogito Wing. The snake foils have been cut to about half their length and some foil tips have been added. Apparently the snake bites...

 

Rafale 2 + Rafale 1 wing + all sorts of stuff built last night and right now as I'm typing. As a normal student would do, Rafale team is showing up to the exam running and writing answers on their eraser. I heard the new hull makes it a completely different boat. When you do the test of lifting one hull to see how high you need to lift before the other hull lift, the unit of measure changed from feet to inches. Also, about double the buoyancy will help keep the crew's ankle out of the water when they are standing on the trampoline.

 

If nothing breaks on either boat during racing, there could be a solid race considering shifty north winds are on the menu. 

More on the facebook group. 

FarmDogg

 

 

 

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On 9/8/2018 at 11:56 AM, Erwankerauzen said:

So Canaan is not attending ???

Too bad!!

Fair Winds 

Erwan

I don't see you fielding a boat either.

Got a wee bit of match match racing firing up in the start of race 2. Looks like 5 knots of breeze on the course. Huge thanks to Marc, Trev and Breck for collecting media from this event for those of us who can't make it. 



DRC

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1 hour ago, Dave Clark said:

I don't see you fielding a boat either.

Got a wee bit of match match racing firing up in the start of race 2. Looks like 5 knots of breeze on the course. Huge thanks to Marc, Trev and Breck for collecting media from this event for those of us who can't make it. 



DRC

At home, do you go out and sail one of the coolest boats in the world for fun?

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These things are wicked even in non foiling mode. Wouldn't want to sail them in a ton of chop however....

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On 9/9/2018 at 11:36 AM, Dave Clark said:

I don't see you fielding a boat either.

Got a wee bit of match match racing firing up in the start of race 2. Looks like 5 knots of breeze on the course. Huge thanks to Marc, Trev and Breck for collecting media from this event for those of us who can't make it. 



DRC

5 knots of breeze? damn!

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It appears to have got windier on the course later. Observe Aethon the Angry Bird doing a very pleasing if burp-heavy low foiling pass in what looks like a reach (10 or 12 knots of breeze??)
 


Re the drag off the stern, at least my hunch is that Aethon needs bigger rudders and mainly gets foil assist and light foiling done while dragging the stern a little. That's my take from sailing it. The two are quite hard to harmonize and if often stalls in takeoff. The mainfoils even with 30 inch section removed are very high area vs the rudders (about four credit cards of area between them). Still goes fast but the exit off the stern isn't operating entirely as designed in this configuration. I will say (didn't make it I had UFO duties) Dad and trev didn't seem to want for boatspeed, so it's not like any critique is warraned.

 

DRC

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No criticism at all, just figured it was some offshoot of the mix & match components. Wake was a lot smoother in the 2nd vid.

 

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It takes me time to figure things out.  I particularly did not want to lose the ability to iceboat in sub foiling conditions.  If I have to surrender a few knots at the top end to maintain a few knots at the low end, I may be willing to make that deal. Particularly if I can drive really hard downwind and not be concerned about crashing or going over the handlebars. As she sits right now, Aethon is really very polite and predictable.  I could sail her without any practice with a crew that had never been on the boat and quickly feel that I wasn't going to make an expensive mistake.  After 4 days, I would feel pretty comfortable in most conditions.  I was happy that I could transition from fast foiling to old school wild thing when necessary.  This may have been entirely because of the difference in the wings,  But not dragging the big lifting surfaces through the water has got to help.

SHC

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A simple thanks to the folks involved, both participants & those that were responsible for the vids.

C Class just has an element of splendor that is not duplicated anywhere else.

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I have to say it again. These boats are terrific fun to sail. Yes they are a lot of work, but DAMN!

I also have to thank Trevor for guiding me around Lac St. Louis. In our part of the world the rocks sho w themselves twice a day. In Quebec they not only hide, but can move from one year to the next due to ice. There are many places which look like they would be fine places to sail, where you will tear the boards out of your boat.  So having Trevor to keep me off the bricks contributed significantly to my enjoyment of the weekend. Thanks Bro.

SHC

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I am going offshore, and tired of storing this 1991 Morrelli/Melvin class C, $20k without the trailer, over $50k spent to go soft sail, 39ft Marstrom mast, stock main, and over size main turbo charged her, all CARBON boat. Delivery possible.

Stephen

Multihuler@aol.com 

melvin.jpg.1d6eea23b3e66cad5e903ba7e4a39fff.jpg

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On 9/10/2018 at 6:10 PM, longy said:

Why does the white boat have so much froth/wake off the leeward hull?

I couldn’t figure it out. It happened on the final Stbd tack of the previous race, and I didn’t pay much attention. When it happened after  lighting up in the next race, I figured it was a bit of weed . Sometimes little knicks on the leading edge cause things to go foamy, so if the edge got chipped during a weedclear, that might have been the reason. In any event, it stopped shortly there after and didn’t happen again.These things get pretty fussy sometimes.

SHC

 

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[an anarchist who was there observing on the water in Toronto in 2007 re-enters the fray here - a bit late...]

With respect to: 

On 2/15/2018 at 10:26 AM, blunted said:

It should not be the job of a class to "save the world". If you are seriously concerned about carbon consumption by sailing, stop sailing, stop driving to regattas, stop sending out tons of coach boats, stop dropping shit in the water at the marina, stop building marinas, stop building boats, stop using gas guzzlers for RC boats, stop buying beer for sailing days. Well you see where that goes pretty quickly, you'll end up at home in your Yurt wrapped in an unbleached alpaca hair blanket sipping tea dreaming about how fun it used to be to sail before being consumed by guilt.

I actually LOL'd.  Thanks blunted.  It deserved a bump.  And to the OP shad and his motivation for all this merriment:

On 2/15/2018 at 11:01 AM, Shad34 said:

For those interested, a very recent paper by my boss and colleagues about those climate issues.

I offer a tongue-in-cheek retort to that paper:  http://www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf

And some truth:

On-thread:  Who shares like this anymore?  https://www.boatdesign.net/attachments/stevekilling-f-pdf.45983/ 
SteveC, maybe you could post a link to "The Cogito Project" in a pdf.  You guys set the bar.  Couldn't find a link.  

And now off-thread, but shad you posted the link to that trash and this is anarchy:
https://resistir.info/livros/john_perkins_confessions_of_an_economic_hit_man.pdf
or https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/dp/1576753018 if you're not rocking your inner anarchist today, or think T H E Y might be watching.

Shad, that paper reminded me of an old joke about spherical cows in science.  Sometimes they can be useful, as in theoretical physics:
http://nautil.us/issue/13/symmetry/the-sacred-spherical-cows-of-physics

But running public policy based on bulbous bovine farts is udder nonsense.  I don't know which is the best in there, but:

"The path of the world economy is simulated over the period 2016–2300 for the study of steady states...but we shall focus our inquiry of the transitional dynamics over the range 2016–2100 in line with the temporal horizon of climate policymakers."

is certainly a good enough howler for a quotation here.  OMG the hubris.  Yeah, the model should be accurate till 2100, good idea.  Tell your boss to go grab a copy of Chaos, by Gleick, and relax with some green tea and read it in his yurt.  He is off his rocker if he thinks that paper is anything but bullshit.  Just sayin.  It's incredible how credulous we've become.  We listened to Einstein, but have faile