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Passport111

New vs. Overhaul

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So there are two hatches the PO add on the forward part of the cabin top; Lewmar Ocean 20s.  They drive me nuts because its just one more potential leak and if you leave them open and tack, its bad news.  

However, they're there, and its a lot easier to keep them up then to close off the holes as the non-skid is imprinted int he gel coat.  Plus my wife likes the air and light they add.

They are leaking and need to be rebed.  Its the usual pain in the ass to get the unholy things out.  Then I learn, on these Lewmar Oceans, you have to rebed the glass when you replace the seal.  Ok, I don't have the time to jack around with that considering all the other projects + life and am irritated at the design.  So I go out to a well known Lewmar service place.  I actually talked to these guys a couple years about their opinion regarding bedding/sealing compound and they were very helpful.

Anyway the point is they quoted $279 each hatch for overhaul.  A about 5 clicks later I found brand new for $305 ea.  I wrote them back and said the repair was beyond economical repair at 91% of new and asked if we could work out a deal.  They told me to pound sand.  Wow, just sayin'.

Heads up I'll be listing some used but good Lewmar Ocean 20s.  Funny thing is the leak was actually were it was bedded, not the hatch seal.  I just figured if I was taking the damn thing off I wasn't putting it back on with out new seals.  

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so you're not going to tell us who gave you the quote?

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On 2/6/2018 at 7:14 PM, Passport111 said:

So there are two hatches the PO add on the forward part of the cabin top; Lewmar Ocean 20s.  They drive me nuts because its just one more potential leak and if you leave them open and tack, its bad news.  

However, they're there, and its a lot easier to keep them up then to close off the holes as the non-skid is imprinted int he gel coat.  Plus my wife likes the air and light they add.

They are leaking and need to be rebed.  Its the usual pain in the ass to get the unholy things out.  Then I learn, on these Lewmar Oceans, you have to rebed the glass when you replace the seal.  Ok, I don't have the time to jack around with that considering all the other projects + life and am irritated at the design.  So I go out to a well known Lewmar service place.  I actually talked to these guys a couple years about their opinion regarding bedding/sealing compound and they were very helpful.

Anyway the point is they quoted $279 each hatch for overhaul.  A about 5 clicks later I found brand new for $305 ea.  I wrote them back and said the repair was beyond economical repair at 91% of new and asked if we could work out a deal.  They told me to pound sand.  Wow, just sayin'.

Heads up I'll be listing some used but good Lewmar Ocean 20s.  Funny thing is the leak was actually were it was bedded, not the hatch seal.  I just figured if I was taking the damn thing off I wasn't putting it back on with out new seals.  

I have good luck  with lewmar hatchs

dont know your application but Lemar has  blind rivets holding the hinge to the aluminum frame...corrosion at these rivets will cause a leak...

the O rings on the hatch dogs  also flatten and leak after a short time.

 

if you rebed the Hatches use foam tape as the  deck to hatch frame  seal and only use sika flex on the fasteners.

I  Dont know the name of the foam tape..  its grey, single side adhesive, medium density, perhaps 4mm thick .  Nothing special ,....the shipyard  in the Netherlands supplies rolls of it to me. 

 

if the deck frame is not true when you torque the frame fasteners you will distort the frame.  

 

 

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The original  hatches on the boat are Gebo (Netherlands).  Never replaced a seal and never rebed - no leaks.  I did order new seals from them a few weeks ago and will be doing that.

I have nothing against Lewmar but they are the only things that have leaked on the boat (4 were added to the cabin top).  Absolutely could partially or totally because of the PO's install.

I'm interested in this foam tape.  When I rebed the other smaller Lewmars a couple seasons ago I used butyl tape on the inside edge with a bead of UV4000 near the outer edge.  I did this way to hedge my bet.  Gebo used and recommends butyl.  When I spoke to the aforementioned Lewmar service center the guy way adamantly against butyl and was irritated I questioned him.

Yes I'm going to work on the deck/frame mating as this was an aftermarket job and don't think its in the 1mm tolerance called out by Lewmar.

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40 minutes ago, ryley said:

so you're not going to tell us who gave you the quote?

I hate call people out but I guess its public info.  They said this was standard overhaul price on this size hatch.  It was Hatch Masters / Select Plastics.

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That's interesting.. I've had nothing but good service from them. I've had a total of 4 hatches done by them, and they were about half the cost of a new one. I'm surprised about the cost. Bummer.. will have to keep an eye on that when I ask them to do the next two hatches.

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Flexible decks plus large hatches, plus cold weather might be too much for butyl tape. Guessing. The thick foam tape sounds like a winner. I have never seen 1/4" thick UHB tape ???

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@slug zitski  can you post a link to the foam tape you and daddle are referring to?

Yes I was surprised and disappointed too.  I contacted them just assuming I was sending them the hatches.  The initial phone call was nice but then the emails were curt (in my opinion).  There was no interest in compromise.  Fine, maybe they can't make money at less than what they quoted.

But, its not like I'm looking for a great deal.  I can't think of one reason to pay an overhaul cost that is 90% of new with warranty.  No way.  I don't know who wood.

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I dont know the brand...or composition . It is supplied with components. 

i believe it is standard urethane or vinyl, single side adhesive  Foam tape 

nothing special .

perhaps this 3m  single-coated-foam-tapes-4100-4300-4500-

the width of the tape is perhaps 12  or 15 mm...thickness perhaps 4 mm

a lewmar hatch footprint would use two rows of tape..one row inside edge, one  row outside edge .

fasteners are in between the rows..the hatch is fitted over predrilled holes, perhaps a few temp fasteners to prevent movement

sika flex is pumped into each fastener hole, then scewed or bolted down 

many many components on deck are waterproofed with this tape...instruments, compass, control panels 

i just mounted a Raymarine instrument..the foam tape, gasket,  came with the unit 

this seems to be the same composition tape as is supplied from the shipyard 

the boatbuilders use these tape to save on labour time spent removing bedding compound that squishes out from hardware when mounting...it also makes future service easy...just unscrew and remove...no adhesive problem 

 

 

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Wow great!  I'm shocked I have not heard it before.  Why is it not promoted more?  

Like I said earlier I'm a big fan of butyl where appropriate but where hatches were concerned, the guy at the aforementioned repair shop was downright irritated that I even questioned the use of caulk type adhesive sealant (can't remember which one he recommended).  I'm surprised more people like him are not using this.

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Ahh...I see...You are suggesting singe-sided tape...because there are screws...of course.  That makes sense. I was thinking double sided...which by the way is so tenacious its removal will delaminate less than perfect layups. Thanks.

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17 minutes ago, Passport111 said:

Wow great!  I'm shocked I have not heard it before.  Why is it not promoted more?  

Like I said earlier I'm a big fan of butyl where appropriate but where hatches were concerned, the guy at the aforementioned repair shop was downright irritated that I even questioned the use of caulk type adhesive sealant (can't remember which one he recommended).  I'm surprised more people like him are not using this.

That butyl rubber spagehtti is for special applications.

 

it problem is viscosity...takes to much clamping pressure , once clamped it can bleed  out and now you have less clamping pressure 

 

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10 minutes ago, daddle said:

Ahh...I see...You are suggesting singe-sided tape...because there are screws...of course.  That makes sense. I was thinking double sided...which by the way is so tenacious its removal will delaminate less than perfect layups. Thanks.

Some of the double sided tapes are very powerful..be careful or you will not be able to remove in future 

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Fair points regarding butyl but that is the same for any sealant.  

Anything that goes between the deck and hardware has to remain in order to provide a seal.  Just because you can clamp down some goo really hard may just mean there is not enough goo left to seal.  That is probably the cause of huge number of leaks.

If the amount remaining the same for either, butyl is better because it has like 400% more elasticity.  PBase explains it really well here http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware.  Its hard to argue with the logic.  Key is leaving room; I think that goes for any sealant.  Bevel the holes or create a grove or something at is will probably never leak.

My personal experience which I relayed earlier, Gebo hatch recommends it, mine were bedded with it and have never leaked.  I don't disagree its not for every application.  Thru-bolted probably best.  

I like your recommendation of the tape because it seems easiest, least messy, and easily removable.  Hope it doesn't leak ;)

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Many different ways to solve the same problem.

normally i duplicate what I find.

very many waterproof electical connection boxes  use buytle rubber spaghetti 

another type of spaghetti is 3m .  Comes in different diameters 

i see it used in many marine applications...similar to butyle..i dont know its material composition

IMG_8096.jpg

IMG_8092.jpg

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On 2/8/2018 at 5:00 PM, ryley said:

That's interesting.. I've had nothing but good service from them. I've had a total of 4 hatches done by them, and they were about half the cost of a new one. I'm surprised about the cost. Bummer.. will have to keep an eye on that when I ask them to do the next two hatches.

I might guess the issue is multifold.  West Marine has them listed for 399.99, which makes the rebuild option more appealing/reasonable.  Secondly, there is essentially the same amount of labor involved in rebuilding a small hatch as a larger one, only the parts price goes up.  At $75/hour, or so, you are only talking 2.5 hours of labor, plus parts, so that doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me...

If you've found them for $100 less then "normal" retail (based on West Marine Price), the I'd guess in this case, you should buy new...but I don't think that the price quote to refurbish was out of range/unreasonable...

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

I might guess the issue is multifold.  West Marine has them listed for 399.99, which makes the rebuild option more appealing/reasonable.  Secondly, there is essentially the same amount of labor involved in rebuilding a small hatch as a larger one, only the parts price goes up.  At $75/hour, or so, you are only talking 2.5 hours of labor, plus parts, so that doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me...

If you've found them for $100 less then "normal" retail (based on West Marine Price), the I'd guess in this case, you should buy new...but I don't think that the price quote to refurbish was out of range/unreasonable...

I think it also depends on how well mounted the hatches are in the first place - if they've been properly mounted and there's no reason to break them out of the deck but the seals and handles have started to leak, then the rebuild option becomes even more economical and time-saving.

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You can get a number of the one sided tapes and “caulking roper” at a local auto body store or the supply shops that sell auto paint and body repair materials to professionals. 

Many of the same products are used in the repair of automobiles and they often have marine grade materials available in areas near waterways for the marine pros.

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Everyone agrees that these urethane or vinyl tapes are better than butyl for this application?  Again I'm surprised I've never heard of it before.  I'm all for it but want to ensure no leaks; obviously.

How much compression do you need in the tape, i.e. what thickness. 

This data sheet shows both.   https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/116549O/single-coated-foam-tapes-4100-4300-4500-and-4700.pdf

The vinyl looks like the way to go as the urerthane is "open cell" and has "N/A" in the water absorption row.

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I use it simply because the person before me used it....when I repair things I re assemble exactly the way it was built.

if you looked hard enough you could probably find some Mil-Spec rating on various bedding . 

You might call Lewmar Technical department and ask.....i want to use tape to bed the port and only use Sika Flex on the fasteners....what tape do you recommend ?

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Say, if you really want it to stay sealed, you need to make sure there's no twist when tightening them down. 

We decided the best way to do this was to get some West 610, spot (any structural epoxy would work), covered the hatch with packing tape, laid a healthy bead around the perimeter and set the hatch in.  Keep acetone, gloves and rags handy and clean it up.

Next day, pop out the hatch, remove the tape, and you've got a perfect bed to re-bed the hatch, using your sealant of choice. (Not Silicone!)

I think the tape stuff looks great, but we used 4200 and are happy with it. 

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On 2018-02-15 at 9:11 AM, Passport111 said:

Everyone agrees that these urethane or vinyl tapes are better than butyl for this application?  Again I'm surprised I've never heard of it before.  I'm all for it but want to ensure no leaks; obviously.

How much compression do you need in the tape, i.e. what thickness. 

This data sheet shows both.   https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/116549O/single-coated-foam-tapes-4100-4300-4500-and-4700.pdf

The vinyl looks like the way to go as the urerthane is "open cell" and has "N/A" in the water absorption row.

(Hey Passport111 - not to divert this thread, but I just noticed the other day you PM'd me re: my Volvo 2003 rebuild way back in December - I just saw the PM the other day!  I sent you a detailed reply of our experience with the rebuild - I didn't hear back from you the other day, so just FYI --I noticed that you recently posted here so thought I'd try to reach you - check your PM inbox.  Cheers, Jud) 

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