Splintered

Old fireball proctor mast trapeze issue.

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I have an old proctor mast from the 1970s. The stays seem to be in pretty good shape. The trapeze wires are a bit frayed and need to be changed. The stays and trapeze are looped around the same tube which is slide through the mast and the ends are peened over. 

 

My my question is: how do you replace the stays or trapeze wires? I’m thinking drill out the tube and replace with a through bolt? Any other suggestions?

in this picture you can see the tube just above the mast line. The stay and trapeze enter the mast below and the tube passes through loops in the ends.

044EAD54-D4AD-40D1-A7E1-3837168EBDDC.jpeg

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Take the top of the mast off - push the wires up and out.

To replace swage the top loops then (with the fishing line you put on the end of each wire) pull the blank end until the loop is by the tube. 

Fix tube, then attend to the lower ends.

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If the trap whites are ok at the top, then cut them short and recrimp, then use a spectra or vectran extension.

This rigging system is totally impractical if you need to replace shrouds or trap wires, if the top of the mast is tapered with a small sheevebox welded on then you need to feed the wire in through the bolt hole, the soft eye, ie no thimble, will just fit through the hole, or you need to feed the wires up from the foot of the mast and try and hook them in the correct order on a philips screwdriver or similar implement before reinserting the tube, ifyou drill the flange off one side of the tube you can reuse it and put a bolt through the centre with a washer on each side to keep it in place.

other option is to cut the trap wires off where they exit the mast, push the tails inside the mast so they are out of the way, run a bolt with a tang on each side through the tube and attach your trap wires to those.

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Forgot to add, if you are running rope haliards then it is probably best not to push the ends of the wires back inside the mast, rather cut them a bit longer and tape them to the shrouds.

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Thanks for the response and giving me some options. I have ordered vectran halyards. The mast head is off the  mast. It is tiny, I’m not sure I can do much from that end. 

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Quick and dirty, bolt external tangs through the sleeve. Piece of aluminum bar with OD close to the ID of the tube with a hole drilled through the bar for your bolt. Abandon ends of old wires in mast. Lose 3 cool points for bad aero.

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One of the more frustrating systems ever devised. I used to hate those things, but they were the way you ran internal tangs back in the 70s  T tangs are so much better!

You need remove the tube. You will not be able to reuse it.  The best tool to use is a countersink, which should enable you to cut the  tube at the flare from the inside out.  Measure the tube and source a replacement.

Once you have cut an end off the tube and pulled it out, you can pull the nicropessed loops out through the hole.  You have  to cut the wires to get them out of the way before you can replace them. Naturally it is hard to make sure you have the lengths correct and matching each other.  You can replace the tube the same way, but I think if you put a bushing in the tube you can use a smaller bolt two washers and a nut to keep the tube in place.

SHC

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Thanks for the support. I know rehabbing an old mast seems crazy. I priced new spars. Rigging and sails and came up with 5000 bucks—I figure I can do this for 5 or 6 hundred. 

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nothing wrong with old aluminum. Sometimes there wer really good masts that you just can't get anymore.

do you have some machine skill? There ar some cool ideas to fix this and also make it better.

SHC

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8 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

do you have some machine skill? There ar some cool ideas to fix this and also make it better.

Drill, file, riveting  and tapping—yes. Lathe and Bridgeport I might need some help.

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Proctor Metal Mast was founded in the days when dinghies all had varnished wood spars.  The thought was that silver anodizing would be too jarring to the market, and they would lose sales for aesthetic reasons. The Brits are like that, " I just didn't think it looked right." 

Being younger and American, I just thought it looked dorky, and when Proctor introduced silver anodizing ~ 1970 I was in lust to have one, even though my gold mast was balls out optimized ( min weight min Cg everything internalized."  I almost cried when Dad broke it.  Thundermouth ( Tempest US 217) was the first boat on which my boatbuilding/tuning actually yielded results.

Splintered, are you trying to compete in the Fireball class and be competitive, or is this just for larking around?

SHC

 

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9 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

 

Splintered, are you trying to compete in the Fireball class and be competitive, or is this just for larking around?

SHC

I’d like to be competitive someday, although I have no expectations of doing so as soon as I hit the water. Right now I’m enjoying the build and learning about old masts :)

 

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17 minutes ago, Splintered said:

I’d like to be competitive someday, although I have no expectations of doing so as soon as I hit the water. Right now I’m enjoying the build and learning about old masts :)

Hi Splintered, where are you located, if you don't mind me asking?

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Here’s the rest of the project. This picture is a bit out of date. I’ve since painted the hull and installed some hardware.

2067E172-055A-4AFE-A99F-E9B6ECF5B745.jpeg

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7 minutes ago, Splintered said:

Here’s the rest of the project. This picture is a bit out of date. I’ve since painted the hull and installed some hardware.

2067E172-055A-4AFE-A99F-E9B6ECF5B745.jpeg

wait

I've seen this boat. Are you the guy with the thread on woodenboats? I've been following that! Your boat looks awesome!!!

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?182662-Fireball-Build

nice work!

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43 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

wait

I've seen this boat. Are you the guy with the thread on woodenboats? I've been following that! Your boat looks awesome!!!

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?182662-Fireball-Build

nice work!

That’s me! The boats in the garage. The temp hasn’t been above 20f in like 3 months. I brought the spars down into the basement where it’s like 50f. Even though it seems silly to be putting all this work into old spars, it’s really all I can do until it warms up. I’m having fun with it. I had actually briefly considered building wood spars, but thought better of it. 

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8 minutes ago, Splintered said:

That’s me! The boats in the garage. The temp hasn’t been above 20f in like 3 months. I brought the spars down into the basement where it’s like 50f. Even though it seems silly to be putting all this work into old spars, it’s really all I can do until it warms up. I’m having fun with it. I had actually briefly considered building wood spars, but thought better of it. 

You do realize that you are going to make a road trip to American Yacht Club in October, and the Fireball class is going to adopt you like a long lost brother.

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So, you want to stay within Fireball Class Rules.

No doubt there are specification about the height of the shroud attachment points. How does this compare to the tube and exit holes on your mast.  You may be able to convert to T terminals, which is the best conventional solution.

SHC

 

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8 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

 

.....  You may be able to convert to T terminals, which is the best conventional solution.

SHC

 

I did that on a Contender mast  from the '80's that was rigged the same way.   I put the T-terminal plates where the shrouds exit the mast, and  used spectra line for the trapeze tied to a loop welded to the T-terminal shroud end.   

If I did it again I might try to get a formed Alu. backing plate inside, so that the T-terminal is on a double thickness. On a different mast I pulled the T-plate through the mast....luckily it was upwind of the launch so I got home with the mast on the deck.

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15 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

So, you want to stay within Fireball Class Rules.

No doubt there are specification about the height of the shroud attachment points. How does this compare to the tube and exit holes on your mast.  You may be able to convert to T terminals, which is the best conventional solution.

SHC

 

Is it just me Steve, or are the Fireball rules rather flexible on shroud attachment height? 

Seems to me that he can put T terminal plates in the (enlarged) holes where the shrouds exited the mast, and replace the tube and then put a bolt through for trapeze attachments and all will be legit. I would make sure that the tube is replaced so that the bolt can't crush the mast section.

http://www.fireball-international.com/media/3569/2015 - IFCR.pdf

17.6 Mast Bands

[snip]
17.6.3 The lower edge of the middle band shall not be more than 5086mm nor less than
5074mm above the heel of the mast, tenon excluded.
The line of the luff of the foresail, when extended, shall not meet the forward side of
the mast above this height.
The points where the lines of the shrouds and of the forestay when extended meet
the mast shall be within 80mm of the lower edge of the middle band.

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I’ve purchesed 4 t-ball plates. I’m not sure if I’ll attach the shrouds and trap wires to the same ones or not. We’ll see how it goes. In the mean time, who can identify this gizmo?

It’s at the base of the mast, aft. 

 

 

 

81AB0A40-6476-452B-8604-7BBCC3AD6B8B.jpeg

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It would be for the jib, Locus. No forestay tension on a Fireball.

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25 minutes ago, bill4 said:

It would be for the jib, Locus. No forestay tension on a Fireball.

I haven't sailed one in a few years but I seem to recall the forestay usually holding around 400lbs of tension. However, I do recall boats tensioning the jib as well.

https://northsails.com/sailing/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/1-NS-Quick_Tuning_Guide_Fireball_5.1.17.pdf

I think either way is viable tbh

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In effect the jib luff wire becomes the forestay, the lazy forestay simply holds the mast up until the jib is hoisted.

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This old magic box is working pretty rough. Maybe some wd-40 will get it going again. I’m  not sure a new one would mount in the same fashion. I’m guessing it could be mounted anywhere in the boat, not necessarily on the mast.

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1 hour ago, Splintered said:

This old magic box is working pretty rough. Maybe some wd-40 will get it going again. I’m  not sure a new one would mount in the same fashion. I’m guessing it could be mounted anywhere in the boat, not necessarily on the mast.

They have a lot of friction. The cascade is generally a better solution.

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On 19/02/2018 at 1:36 AM, Splintered said:

This old magic box is working pretty rough. Maybe some wd-40 will get it going again. I’m  not sure a new one would mount in the same fashion. I’m guessing it could be mounted anywhere in the boat, not necessarily on the mast.

WD 40 would not be my lubricant of choice. To say the least. Assuming its old school plastic running on metal then a PTFE spray would be a better bet.

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On 18/02/2018 at 6:38 AM, dgmckim said:

I haven't sailed one in a few years but I seem to recall the forestay usually holding around 400lbs of tension. However, I do recall boats tensioning the jib as well.

https://northsails.com/sailing/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/1-NS-Quick_Tuning_Guide_Fireball_5.1.17.pdf

I think either way is viable tbh

I owned a custom built wooden Fireball from Bob Hoare in the mid 80’s and we used to have 320lbs on the jib luff which equated to 450 lbs in the shrouds. Although your hull looks very stiff and could undoubtedly  take those loads, there is no way I would subject a 30+ year old mast and rigging to those sorts of tensions.  I have seen the jib halyard sheaves tear down  the front wall of masts often due a bit of corrosion in the mast cut out and rivet holes as the rig tension has been applied. Also the mast looks like a Proctor Beta or Beta minus that was used in the 70’s (we had one on our original ‘77 Fireball) which was pretty bendy, so again it would probably pull some interesting shapes if subjected to high rig tensions.

Point to note is that since the late 80’s fireballs in the UK use a 2:1 halyard at the top of the jib to reduce the load on the jib halyard sheave and on our last foam sandwich boat, we had an 8:1 cascade bolted to the boat, giving 16:1 in total, and that was plenty of purchase.

If you stick with that magic  box, which looks like a Holt Allen one (we had one of those too) and has non ball bearing sheaves, the friction in it probably limits it to 200lbs on the jib luff max.

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I removed the sleeve. It appears to me that fitting the t-terminal plate where the sleeve was located, or lower, where the stays exited the mast, will both fit the rules. It will be easier to install the plates where the sleeve was located and I’ve already figured out a procedure for that. Fitting the plates lower where the stays exited the mast would be a bit more problematic. I’ve already briefly gotten my fingers caught in there once. Walking down to the emergency room with a proctor mast over my shoulder would no doubt get me front page billing on SA. 

 

I also have 2 tangs. I could locate them where the stays exited the mast and use the t-terminals at the sleeve location for the trap wires. 

 

I could also also put both the stays and the trap wires at the same t-terminal where the sleeve was and fill the holes where the stays exited with rivets.

 

Will any stainless pop rivit do? The rivets at aps seem basic enough, I’m just wondering if a can use something sourced locally. 

 

Hopefully more pictures shortly. 

 

Again, thanks for all your help.

 

 

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You can use stainless but coat with lanacoat or they will corrode. Alternately use monel rivets. Will not react wit the aluminum and are stronger. BUT you need a serious rivet gun to set them. 

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Do not run the stays and trap wires off the same T terminal. The high load of the side stay will stop the T ball aligning with the trap wire, which is an ever changing angle. This will cause the trap wire to fatigue and fail directly below the point it attaches to the shroud.

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I had to elongate the original sleeve hole to accommodate the t-terminal plates. As you can see, the sleeve hole was pretty big.Now I wait for rivets and lanacoat from aps. The lower holes is where the original stays exited the mast. I have two more plates so I could fit them there. I wish these t-terminal plates came with an external trim piece. Maybe I can make something up out of thin aluminum. 

E2D8561B-9745-4EF8-8D2E-5C1ABA630631.jpeg

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On 3/6/2018 at 11:48 PM, Locus said:

You can use stainless but coat with lanacoat or they will corrode. Alternately use monel rivets. Will not react wit the aluminum and are stronger. BUT you need a serious rivet gun to set them. 

They do react, but not as much as stainless rivets, use Duralac or similar to stop corrosion.

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