sail69

Check Your BoatUS Policy.

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Carrier was CNA.   Had $0 deductible (after it "faded" away) and no depreciation on replacement parts.  

They recently changed the carrier to Geico and...

https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boatus.com%2Finsurance%2Flosses-depreciation.asp

Yes the change was in the fine print of my new policy and I should have noticed sooner.    

I will be cancelling my policy.

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Warren Buffet knows how to make money and it doesn't include no-worry coverage.

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What's the issue?  I know of a guy that had his boat totaled by them.  They paid him $42,000 and resold the boat to him for $1,000.  He did the repairs for under $5,000, bought new electronics and pocketed the rest.  Best part is they are insuring the boat for him again

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I had a claim with Geico Marine and had no problems with them either. In fact, I always thought BoatUS was managed by Geico.

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Boat US was a employee owned managing agent, policy was underwritten by CNA.   Many people think they are/were part of the boaters lobbying/advocacy group, which all they share is a name; they are not.  The insurance side sold itself a number of years back.

Berkshire Hathaway bought Boat US and learned the business while starting a yacht/boat insurance co.   That was Seaworthy insurance, they changed to Geico Marine Insurance co to capitalize on the marketing.   Once that company was up and running they replaced CNA as the carrier. 

They are 100% out for themselves.  I am a broker and specialize in boats and yachts, if you want you can send me a PM and I can answer any questions or help you find coverage.

 

Thanks,

Tom Carroll

 

 

 

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Yes the CNA policy was a lot better than the Geico one, but its still a pretty good value. ALWAYS check your policy for a depreciation schedule and navigation restrictions, they are very common.  Also, a lot of policies will have a racing exclusion in them. These can usually be removed for sailboats for no charge.

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51 minutes ago, PirateDave said:

What's the issue?  I know of a guy that had his boat totaled by them.  They paid him $42,000 and resold the boat to him for $1,000.  He did the repairs for under $5,000, bought new electronics and pocketed the rest.  Best part is they are insuring the boat for him again

The issue is given my boats age (1981) I will getting 20 cents on the dollar for repairs...as opposed to 100.

Total the boat?  great...repair the boat?  Not great.

 

 

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They reduced my policy rate by 75% by switching carrier last year. 

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shop. your. insurance.

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16 minutes ago, sail69 said:

The issue is given my boats age (1981) I will getting 20 cents on the dollar for repairs...as opposed to 100.

 

Most insurers are going to need a recent survey in order to waive depreciation with a boat that age. It will probably be worth the expense. 

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Pay attention to how much you have to get your boat off the bottom of the lake/ocean. Many people end up using their coverage limits up with that and have nothing to replace their boat. Some policies say 5% of hull value... 

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So whats the best insurance company to use for coastal sailing?

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On 2/9/2018 at 10:42 AM, Mark Set said:

Most insurers are going to need a recent survey in order to waive depreciation with a boat that age. It will probably be worth the expense. 

wtf are they going to do with my 1964 alberg?  

Quote

So whats the best insurance company to use for coastal sailing?

or for a 43 year old lake boat that races 

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I'm switching next month to Gowry group.  I was a BoatUS  member for 20 years (Still will be a member for the unlimited towing and because my best friend is a VP in the company) but since Geico took my policy over it has doubled.  I have never had a claim, never been in an accident, never even failed a USCG inspection, but yet my rates have gone up for the past 3 years and my deductible went up too....Gowrey gave me a quote almost 1/2 of Geico Marine for same coverage.

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37 minutes ago, dacapo said:

I'm switching next month to Gowry group.  I was a BoatUS  member for 20 years (Still will be a member for the unlimited towing and because my best friend is a VP in the company) but since Geico took my policy over it has doubled.  I have never had a claim, never been in an accident, never even failed a USCG inspection, but yet my rates have gone up for the past 3 years and my deductible went up too....Gowrey gave me a quote almost 1/2 of Geico Marine for same coverage.

Thanks!  I will give them a shout and see.

Other than the rate difference, what about coverage?  How do you they handle depreciation on repairs?

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1 hour ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

wtf are they going to do with my 1964 alberg?  

 

If its in good condition and you have a survey from the last couple years that reflects that, they should give you full value.  If its fiberglass that is, if its wood youll have bigger problems.

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1 hour ago, Mark Set said:

If its in good condition and you have a survey from the last couple years that reflects that, they should give you full value.  If its fiberglass that is, if its wood youll have bigger problems.

 

not sure how many surveyors in the middle of north texas..  or what he would say about a 19.5' boat.. but yes, it is fiberglass..   the problem is, the insurance companies think its an old boat (which it is) and isn't worth anything.. which it ain't..

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I have some trouble understanding what the Boat US link is saying. If it’s what I think it is then I need to shop elsewhere for insurance.  

I had to get a survey before they would write any policy. There was an “agreed value” derived from that survey. But based on what I read here this 10% per year depreciation would be based on the year built- 1970, in my case? And has no relation to the “agreed value”? So, since I have long ago passed the maximum depreciation,  a 10K repair would be covered for only 20% of the repair cost, i.e. insurance would cover 2,000? This seems completely unreasonable in that the condition and the age of a boat are independent variables. I’m asking them for clarification. 

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1 hour ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

not sure how many surveyors in the middle of north texas..  or what he would say about a 19.5' boat.. but yes, it is fiberglass..   the problem is, the insurance companies think its an old boat (which it is) and isn't worth anything.. which it ain't..

When I owned cheaper boats they fit under the umbrella of my home insurance.

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3 hours ago, Oceanconcepts said:

I have some trouble understanding what the Boat US link is saying. If it’s what I think it is then I need to shop elsewhere for insurance.  

I had to get a survey before they would write any policy. There was an “agreed value” derived from that survey. But based on what I read here this 10% per year depreciation would be based on the year built- 1970, in my case? And has no relation to the “agreed value”? So, since I have long ago passed the maximum depreciation,  a 10K repair would be covered for only 20% of the repair cost, i.e. insurance would cover 2,000? This seems completely unreasonable in that the condition and the age of a boat are independent variables. I’m asking them for clarification. 

Please report back.  I have the same policy.

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Thanks for pointing this out.  I've been with Boat US 20 years, never made a claim, rate jumped 15% this year and now I know partial repairs will be depreciated 40%.  Time to look at other quotes.

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I've sent an email and may call tomorrow if I don't hear back right away.  I looked at my policy, and this exact language is there, copied below. I don't know how to interpret it other than if you have a boat older than 20 years, you coverage for damage is dropping 10% per year to the point of covering only 20% of any partial loss (less deductible) after your boat's 28th birthday. If this is correct, that would seem to put a lot of people (like me) in the position of paying for next to no insurance on anything short of a total loss. Like many I have just sent checks to Boat US for many years on a variety of boats, never made a claim, and assumed the coverage was comparable with the recent change.

Kudos to Sail 69 for bringing this up. 

Quote

“We” will pay the reasonable cost of repairs or replacements, in accordance with quality marine repair practice, less depreciation. Depreciation shall be calculated at 10% for each year beginning with the 20th year from manufacture. In all cases, there shall remain no less than 20% residual value regardless of age. In the event of damage to plywood, plastic, fiberglass, metal, cement, or other molded material, “we” are obligated to pay only the reasonable cost of repairing the damaged area, in accordance with quality marine repair practice. If there is a covered loss requiring repainting of an “insured boat,” “we” will pay the cost of repainting or resurfacing the damaged area in accordance with customary marine repair practices so that the area repaired will match, as closely as practical, the original color. “We” have the option to make or reimburse “you” for repairs or replacements, or to pay “you” directly based on an agreed estimate of loss. Repairs and replacements will be made with like kind and quality. 

Any insurance pros that could weigh in on this language? Any hints on a good company to insure a 47 year old, rock solid cold molded wood boat with a good recent survey? 

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9 hours ago, Oceanconcepts said:

I've sent an email and may call tomorrow if I don't hear back right away.  I looked at my policy, and this exact language is there, copied below. I don't know how to interpret it other than if you have a boat older than 20 years, you coverage for damage is dropping 10% per year to the point of covering only 20% of any partial loss (less deductible) after your boat's 28th birthday. If this is correct, that would seem to put a lot of people (like me) in the position of paying for next to no insurance on anything short of a total loss. Like many I have just sent checks to Boat US for many years on a variety of boats, never made a claim, and assumed the coverage was comparable with the recent change.

Kudos to Sail 69 for bringing this up. 

Any insurance pros that could weigh in on this language? Any hints on a good company to insure a 47 year old, rock solid cold molded wood boat with a good recent survey? 

As I said upthread, Geico is not in the business of writing generous policies and being lax with claims. They tout lower rates by limiting coverage and skimming the cream of the risk pool.

As you're in the Seattle area, I'd give Pemco a call. I used them when I bought my current (1993 vintage) boat in 2012 and was very surprised by how reasonable their coverage was. They were using an underwriter at the time and shortly thereafter brought Marine insurance in-house so things may have changed but my policy coverage and rates hasven't so it's worth a shot.

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15 hours ago, Oceanconcepts said:

I have some trouble understanding what the Boat US link is saying. If it’s what I think it is then I need to shop elsewhere for insurance.  

I had to get a survey before they would write any policy. There was an “agreed value” derived from that survey. But based on what I read here this 10% per year depreciation would be based on the year built- 1970, in my case? And has no relation to the “agreed value”? So, since I have long ago passed the maximum depreciation,  a 10K repair would be covered for only 20% of the repair cost, i.e. insurance would cover 2,000? This seems completely unreasonable in that the condition and the age of a boat are independent variables. I’m asking them for clarification. 

If you have agreed value the depreciation doesnt apply (that should be stated somewhere or there is a separate agreed value endorsement on the policy). There will be a specific $ amount agreed value for the hull shown in the policy itself.  Agreed value is what you want, you will need a recent survey to get it unless the boat is less than 10 years old at most.

 

15 hours ago, Ishmael said:

When I owned cheaper boats they fit under the umbrella of my home insurance.

Umbrella coverage refers to Liability only, though some home owners policies will include physical damage coverage for a small boat less than $2,000 or so and smaller than a certain size (all the companies are a little different).

Be careful that you aren't only carrying liability coverage when you think that you have hull coverage as well. People often think that their hull is insured for theft or damage because they have an insurance policy, but the policy is for liability only.

 

Quote

“We” will pay the reasonable cost of repairs or replacements, in accordance with quality marine repair practice, less depreciation. Depreciation shall be calculated at 10% for each year beginning with the 20th year from manufacture. In all cases, there shall remain no less than 20% residual value regardless of age. In the event of damage to plywood, plastic, fiberglass, metal, cement, or other molded material, “we” are obligated to pay only the reasonable cost of repairing the damaged area, in accordance with quality marine repair practice. If there is a covered loss requiring repainting of an “insured boat,” “we” will pay the cost of repainting or resurfacing the damaged area in accordance with customary marine repair practices so that the area repaired will match, as closely as practical, the original color. “We” have the option to make or reimburse “you” for repairs or replacements, or to pay “you” directly based on an agreed estimate of loss. Repairs and replacements will be made with like kind and quality. 

Any insurance pros that could weigh in on this language? Any hints on a good company to insure a 47 year old, rock solid cold molded wood boat with a good recent survey?

They are stating that depreciation only applies up to the point that the boat is worth 20% of its replacement cost, so at 47 years old they consider it to be worth 20% of whatever they determine the replacement cost is. So they will only pay 20% of the cost to replace parts or repair the laminate (at most, less the deductible). For a boat like that you really need to find a company that will give you agreed value on it based on the surveyors valuation. It sounds like that might not be an option with BoatUS Geico policy. Wood boats are tough to find coverage for though, some companies wont write them at all. You should ask around to other wood boat owners you might know in the area.

 

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You should also check the Tow policy.  Yes, they will come get you if you are just a Boat US member.  However, if a member who has paid the extra tow insurance has a break down they will ditch you in mid-tow to go help the higher paying member.  Been there, got left on the hook in the ICW for 2 hrs hoping the guy would come back.  When he finally made it back he refused to tow us all the way home and ditched us again at the first marina we came to, (we were not being drunk assholes either.  Just a family outing with the grandparents and 2yr old on board).  The next day we went to get the boat only to run into it being towed the rest of the way back early that morning, (which they were planning on charging us another $300.00 for).  The guy would not let us have the boat until I told him he had not been contracted for this as we'd signed off on and paid for the tow the night before.  Since they had not been asked to tow the boat further he had basically stolen out boat and I was calling the cops.  Total nightmare.

In those situations it doesn't matter who you know at Boat US because all the tow operators are individual franchises..

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I recently switched from Safeco to Boat US/Geico and now wonder if I made a bad decision. The boat in question is a Wilderness 30 prototype called an Un30 (but has always been insured as a Wilderness 30 since we bought her 21 years ago now). My local agent who has specialized in boat insurance in Santa Cruz for decades looked over the Boat US/Geico quote for me and told me to go for it because, according to her, she couldn't touch the rate and value with any of the carriers she works with.

Our boat is closing in on 40 years old now and we do have "agreed value" coverage. I did not have to get a survey, but I did have to send 5 or 6 pictures.

Safeco was great to work with, I have my cars (all but one which is with Hagerty that is) and our homeowners with them and received cross policy discounts for having them cover everything. After the 2011 tsunami Safeco jacked the rates way up for our policy because we are berthed in Santa Cruz harbor. The change made sense because of a great rate and the included Boat US towing (something I have never needed in almost 50 years of sailing but it gave my "Rear Admiral" peace of mind which is priceless).

Now I wonder if I should think about alternatives?

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6 hours ago, Mark Set said:

They are stating that depreciation only applies up to the point that the boat is worth 20% of its replacement cost, so at 47 years old they consider it to be worth 20% of whatever they determine the replacement cost is.

Seems reasonable- my boat's market value per survey is more like 7% of what the survey listed as replacement cost to build new. But since I have an "agreed value" policy the language seems clear that a total loss will be paid on the basis of that agreed value, not in relation to a % of replacement cost or original cost. 

Quote

So they will only pay 20% of the cost to replace parts or repair the laminate (at most, less the deductible).

This is where I had my question- so If I lose the mast, or get T-boned by another boat while sitting peacefully at anchor, the policy pays only 20% of the actual cost of repairs, less deductible?  I can understand if the maximum repair they would pay would be 20% of the replacement value, but that doesn't seem to be what the language says. 

I called just now and gave my hypothetical example of 10,000 in damage. The representative confirmed that the maximum my policy would pay would be $2.000 less my deductible, or in my case $1250. At total loss would be covered to the agreed value. Basically I am uninsured for anything other than liability and total loss.

Quote

For a boat like that you really need to find a company that will give you agreed value on it based on the surveyors valuation. It sounds like that might not be an option with BoatUS Geico policy.

That's what I thought I had- the policy specifies "agreed hull value", and the numbers are there right on the page. They would only allow the agreed value to be the actual purchase price, since that was less than the surveyor's "estimated fair market value". This policy was put in place prior to the change to GEICO, however. 

Quote

Wood boats are tough to find coverage for though, some companies wont write them at all. You should ask around to other wood boat owners you might know in the area.

I've heard that, but the cold molded wood did not seem to be an issue except that they required a out of the water survey prior to writing the policy. I'd expect the same would be true of a FG boat that old as well, though. But come to think of it they required only an in water survey on my prior FG boat. 

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20 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Please report back.  I have the same policy.

I didn't get an email reply, so I called. The representative confirmed that they will only cover repair bills subject to the depreciation schedule- after 20 years they will pay 10% less of any repair claims per year for every year of the boat's age, and at 28 and over they will pay a maximum of 20% of the cost of any repairs less the dedcutible. So if you have an older boat insured with Boat US, you effectively have only liability coverage and coverage for a total loss. 

I never had a claim, but I'm pretty sure Boat US did not work this way in the past. 

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I am currently working on three repairs for which Boat US is the carrier. 

So far it is no where near as easy a process as when the carrier is Progresive, State Farm or USAA.

I have nothing more to say at this time 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Oceanconcepts said:

I didn't get an email reply, so I called. The representative confirmed that they will only cover repair bills subject to the depreciation schedule- after 20 years they will pay 10% less of any repair claims per year for every year of the boat's age, and at 28 and over they will pay a maximum of 20% of the cost of any repairs less the dedcutible. So if you have an older boat insured with Boat US, you effectively have only liability coverage and coverage for a total loss. 

I never had a claim, but I'm pretty sure Boat US did not work this way in the past. 

I claim for a lightening strike about 6 years ago. They handled it very well. Also like their salvage/environmental coverage 

I’ve not been happy with premiums the last few years as they underwrite 3 boats on 3 different policies with no sign of any reduction in liability, etc. 

Talked to USAA a few years ago but survey requirement was offputting since I wasn’t hauling that spring. Maybe time to get some other quotes. 

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2 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

I claim for a lightening strike about 6 years ago. They handled it very well. Also like their salvage/environmental coverage 

I’ve not been happy with premiums the last few years as they underwrite 3 boats on 3 different policies with no sign of any reduction in liability, etc. 

Talked to USAA a few years ago but survey requirement was offputting since I wasn’t hauling that spring. Maybe time to get some other quotes. 

You've been a proponent of BoatUS in the past. I was curious about your take on these recent developments.

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Here is how the OLD version of BOATUS worked:

I hit something unseen while under power and ever after had bad vibration. The yard diagnosed a bent prop and a bent shaft. BOATUS told me to have the yard fix it and fax them the bill. They paid no problem and they didn't even bitch about replacing the cutless bearing which was decades old and also didn't bitch about getting a new shaft. In the new system it wouldn't even be worth it to make a claim :rolleyes:

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17 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I am currently working on three repairs for which Boat US is the carrier. 

So far it is no where near as easy a process as when the carrier is Progresive, State Farm or USAA.

I have nothing more to say at this time 

 

 

Last time I checked USAA didn’t do marine insurance, they simply referred you to Geico with a discount. Has that changed?

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11 minutes ago, Mizzmo said:

Last time I checked USAA didn’t do marine insurance, they simply referred you to Geico with a discount. Has that changed?

They will insure small boats directly. Like motorcycles, they will push out larger/more valuable boats to a “partner”. Not sure if it is geico or not these days. iIRC, it was progressive last time I asked for a quote but that has been several years. 

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Oh yeah it was progressive. Wish USAA would just expand to boating

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16 minutes ago, Mizzmo said:

Oh yeah it was progressive. Wish USAA would just expand to boating

They used to do boating and pulled back, my old boat was with USAA but I'm with Progressive now because that's who USAA referred me to when I got the new boat a few years ago.

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I'm in the process of gathering quotes, so far no problems associated with having a wood hull- I do have a very good recent survey. The first quote I received was for about 25% less than my Boat US policy, with higher coverages on liability. Shopping around may pay off. I've never had a marine insurance claim, and don't intend to, but I'd like to know that my insurance actually provided, you know, insurance if I had some serious damage. 

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To follow up on my fairly new policy with Boat US Geico I called them to ask about the depreciation schedule thing. I was told there is an addition to the policy, especially useful for sailboats because it covers spars, glass damage to the hull, etc. without depreciation. That addition (rider?) is called "Partial Waiver of Depreciation." Cost seemed reasonable (she didn't know exactly but somewhere around $50-75 per year). Problem is this added coverage is currently only available in 48 states and California is one of the two it is not yet approved by the State Insurance Commissioner's office. Not sure why. I sent a complaint off to said office requesting an explanation why and am awaiting a response. I'll post back to this thread as I learn more.

Any insurance experts following the thread know why this might be?

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30 minutes ago, msvphoto said:

To follow up on my fairly new policy with Boat US Geico I called them to ask about the depreciation schedule thing. I was told there is an addition to the policy, especially useful for sailboats because it covers spars, glass damage to the hull, etc. without depreciation. That addition (rider?) is called "Partial Waiver of Depreciation." Cost seemed reasonable (she didn't know exactly but somewhere around $50-75 per year). Problem is this added coverage is currently only available in 48 states and California is one of the two it is not yet approved by the State Insurance Commissioner's office. Not sure why. I sent a complaint off to said office requesting an explanation why and am awaiting a response. I'll post back to this thread as I learn more.

Any insurance experts following the thread know why this might be?

I’d like to hear more. What is the other state where it’s not available?

 

 

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35 minutes ago, msvphoto said:

To follow up on my fairly new policy with Boat US Geico I called them to ask about the depreciation schedule thing. I was told there is an addition to the policy, especially useful for sailboats because it covers spars, glass damage to the hull, etc. without depreciation. That addition (rider?) is called "Partial Waiver of Depreciation." Cost seemed reasonable (she didn't know exactly but somewhere around $50-75 per year). Problem is this added coverage is currently only available in 48 states and California is one of the two it is not yet approved by the State Insurance Commissioner's office. Not sure why. I sent a complaint off to said office requesting an explanation why and am awaiting a response. I'll post back to this thread as I learn more.

Any insurance experts following the thread know why this might be?

Whenever insurance companies want to change their policy forms or their rating structure it has to be approved by each and every state (insurance is all regulated at the state level). Some states are slower and more bureaucratic than others, so it takes longer for them to approve it.

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I have two quotes now, one is 25% less than Boat US but did not cover any rig damage (the rig could be brand new, but if the hull is older and the boat is wood, no coverage). The other (through State Farm, I have a number of business and personal policies with them) is almost half the cost of the Boat US policy. It covers everything to replacement value.  Both quotes have higher coverages and a lower deductible. I've read the policies and neither of them has anything like the GEICO language concerning the age of the hull reducing the % of repairs they cover. The State Farm policy covers much more with respect to limits to navigation. 

I was not told when I talked to Boat US about any rider for waiving the deductible, just that for a boat over 28 years old they would pay a maximum of 20% of any repairs, less deductible. I'd be curious about this. If it's available I would think almost 100% of owners of older boats would go for it.

As it stands it appears Boat US snuck in this very substantial reduction in coverage when they went to GEICO, and did not notify customers with older boats. Just a cheery "everything's all good, nothing to see here" when the underwriting changed.  From postings upthread it is apparent that such deductibles were not the way things worked in the past. Of course, everyone should read the fine print on their policies, but dealing with the same (apparent) company I'm guessing few did- including me. Kudos to Sail69.

I'm unwilling to give Boat US the benefit of the doubt after this exercise in customer non-communication, even if a rider is available and the cost were the same. 

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Thanks for all this great info.  I will be looking into these options.

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What are other's insurance costs for old boats?  Mine has nearly doubled in the last two years and seems rather high.  $7,500 declared value and $400 deductible for a 39 year old 26' fiberglass boat.  Never had a claim.  In a marina on the coast that doesn't get hurricanes.  Over $500 a year.

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About the same, but my boat has a much higher declared value. 

My last boat that was on your dock was about $300/year and had a $25k declared value. 

I'm using State Farm. 

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Through State Farm I got $300 K liability, $35,000 declared value, $250 deductible for $482/ year. That's on a 47 year old cold molded wood boat. Navigation limits are anywhere in the US or Canada up to 75 miles offshore.

I  think diesel lowers the rates over gas, and liability amount matters, but $500+ for a 26' boat with that value seems high. My Boat US policy was going up to almost $900 though, with higher deductibles and, as the thread points out, almost no coverage for damage. 

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My insurance will pay for tsunami haulout costs.  I'm sure that will come in real handy.  Just need to improve tsunami warning times from 10 minutes to 10 days.  Might as well insure against ghost pirates and kraken attacks too.

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12 hours ago, Oceanconcepts said:

Through State Farm I got $300 K liability, $35,000 declared value, $250 deductible for $482/ year. That's on a 47 year old cold molded wood boat. Navigation limits are anywhere in the US or Canada up to 75 miles offshore.

I  think diesel lowers the rates over gas, and liability amount matters, but $500+ for a 26' boat with that value seems high. My Boat US policy was going up to almost $900 though, with higher deductibles and, as the thread points out, almost no coverage for damage. 

You ever get a quote from Pemco? Just curious how they compare.

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2 hours ago, IStream said:

You ever get a quote from Pemco? Just curious how they compare.

I did not. The other quote I received (underwritten by Markel) was for only a little more money, but with an exclusion for anything to do with the rig. This was apparently because of the age of the boat and the wood hull- other boats might be rated differently. I stopped when I determined the State Farm policy would meet my needs- I have number of business and personal policies with them now and like and trust the agent, who is just down the road and has given me good advice in the past. 

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Glad you found a good alternative to Geico. I have a term life policy with State Farm but I can't comment on their quality since I've never made a claim ;). The agent I got the life policy from was great but he retired and was replaced by a pretty young thing who couldn't answer any questions and put me on all their mailing lists un-asked, so I've never looked at them for other insurance needs. 

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On 2/23/2018 at 3:13 PM, msvphoto said:

To follow up on my fairly new policy with Boat US Geico I called them to ask about the depreciation schedule thing. I was told there is an addition to the policy, especially useful for sailboats because it covers spars, glass damage to the hull, etc. without depreciation. That addition (rider?) is called "Partial Waiver of Depreciation." Cost seemed reasonable (she didn't know exactly but somewhere around $50-75 per year). Problem is this added coverage is currently only available in 48 states and California is one of the two it is not yet approved by the State Insurance Commissioner's office. Not sure why. I sent a complaint off to said office requesting an explanation why and am awaiting a response. I'll post back to this thread as I learn more.

Any insurance experts following the thread know why this might be?

Just called about this.   Thanks for heads up, but I just called on this "Partial Waiver of Appreciation".  It applies only to boats less than 10 years old.  

Moving on...

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I've had BoatUS insurance for years and this doesn't seem materially different from their old policy.

I had a pretty significant claim in 2003, and the only relevant depreciation was on the lost sails.  I got an entirely new mast and standing rigging out of it because they were less than 20 years old, even thought the boat itself was older than 20 years.

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On February 24, 2018 at 7:37 AM, IStream said:

You ever get a quote from Pemco? Just curious how they compare.

Pemco?  One tiny mistake and you're off to another carrier.  It's a business model.....

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Yup, similar to Geico but without as many gotcha clauses. I do enough business with them that I'm somewhat immunized from the one-strike policy (I think).

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I just lost a rudder and we have progressive.  We have only had the boat less than a year.  Early in the process I can keep you posted.  My dad hot a rock in his boat a few years ago and he said they were great and paid for everything and quickly.  

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17 minutes ago, IStream said:

Yup, similar to Geico but without as many gotcha clauses. I do enough business with them that I'm somewhat immunized from the one-strike policy (I think).

I see you holding your breath......I see you passing out.....:lol:

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1 hour ago, bjmoose said:

I've had BoatUS insurance for years and this doesn't seem materially different from their old policy.

I had a pretty significant claim in 2003, and the only relevant depreciation was on the lost sails.  I got an entirely new mast and standing rigging out of it because they were less than 20 years old, even thought the boat itself was older than 20 years.

I think it is different. The GEICO policy language now in force through Boat US- and confirmed by their representative when I talked to them directly with this question- makes it clear that for repairs they will cover a maximum of 20% of the cost, less deductible, if the boat is older than 28 years. It's a 10% decrease in coverage for each year past 20. From the language you could have just rebuilt the vessel from stem to stern, it wouldn't matter. It would not matter if your rig was brand new. If the boat is over 20 years old your coverage for damage is less each passing year. For a total loss they would cover up to the agreed value.

From your experience and others related upthread, it seems that when BOAT US polices were being underwritten by CNA (up until 2 years ago, I believe) they covered the actual cost of repairs less the deductible on both new and older boats. There may have been allowances for depreciation on things like sails and electronics, but they paid to put things back in something like the state they were in before the loss. That's apparently not what the GEICO policy does. 

I asked the Boat US representative: If I had a pristine, newly restored but older boat, and it suffered hull damage that would cost $10,000 to repair to the pre-accident state, what would my maximum coverage be? The answer was $2,000, less my deductible. From stories above and others I have heard over the years it seems that under CNA the coverage would have been $10,000 less the deductible. For owners of older boats this is a very significant change. 

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9 hours ago, Amati said:

I see you holding your breath......I see you passing out.....:lol:

Quite possible. I haven't tested my theory yet...

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I am going to write into the BOATUS magazine consumer hotline column (or whatever they call it) where they resolve disputes and complain about this insurance ripoff :lol:

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On 2/28/2018 at 4:56 PM, sail69 said:

Just called about this.   Thanks for heads up, but I just called on this "Partial Waiver of Appreciation".  It applies only to boats less than 10 years old.  

Moving on...

The 10 years bit ... I don't read that in the Waiver.

?

 

Scan_0003.pdf

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One more reason to check you policies -- the offending language may not apply to BoatU.S. policies.  My BoatU.S. policy has the same language as in the link above, but also includes a  "BoatU.S. YACHT POLICY ENDORSEMENT."  This endorsement states that the section on Limits of Insurance for Hull and Equipment is "removed in its entirety."  It is replaced with language that does not include the depreciation for older boats.

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45 minutes ago, koala said:

One more reason to check you policies -- the offending language may not apply to BoatU.S. policies.  My BoatU.S. policy includes a  "BoatU.S. YACHT POLICY ENDORSEMENT."  This endorsement states that the section on Limits of Insurance for Hull and Equipment is "removed in its entirety" and replaced with language that does not include the depreciation for older boats.

Interesting. My policy, which was BoatUS, did not include such an endorsement. And when I talked to the representative and asked the specific question (they needed to put me on hold and get the answer from a superior) they confirmed that the depreciation would apply, and that I would be covered for a maximum of 20% of the cost of any repairs. I wonder if this is something that varies by state?  

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BoatUS/GEICO just sent me my renewal notice.  First, they congratulated me on my 25% diminishing deductible.    Then, they increase the premium for the exact same coverage 21% year over year.  No claims.  Ever.

I'm guessing they are trying to recoup hurricane losses and pass costs along to the other policy holders.

 

 

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I'm on the great lakes with a Soto 40. My policy is with Frankenmuth Insurance. They depreciate sails but not mast, rigging or boat if it's agreed value.  I'm an agent. They also have an endorsement that adds a large med pay per crew member, I think it's $25,000 per person. Very good policy.

 

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Progressive update...on losing our rudder

Garbage! We were denied our claim on the rudder.  The policy we had only covers damage caused by hitting something such as a rock or log.  Nothing about the rudder breaking off.  They determined that is was caused by previous damage, wear and tear, etc.  Seems like with homeowner insurance if something like a pipe bursts in a house then it would likely be covered.  Right?  

Well now I am out shopping for new insurance what a pain.  Kinda makes me want to get out of sailing.  My advice for now is do not get progressive insurance it is crap.  Oh and they have really high premiums.  Perhaps I should have said we hit a log?

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Rainy Day Sailor said:

Progressive update...on losing our rudder

Garbage! We were denied our claim on the rudder.  The policy we had only covers damage caused by hitting something such as a rock or log.  Nothing about the rudder breaking off.  They determined that is was caused by previous damage, wear and tear, etc.  Seems like with homeowner insurance if something like a pipe bursts in a house then it would likely be covered.  Right?  

Well now I am out shopping for new insurance what a pain.  Kinda makes me want to get out of sailing.  My advice for now is do not get progressive insurance it is crap.  Oh and they have really high premiums.  Perhaps I should have said we hit a log?

 

 

 

Sorry about your rudder but to your homeowner’s example, most policies would not cover a broken water pipe, but only the ensuing damage caused by the pipe failure. BTDT. $35,000 in foundation damage from a failure of the supply line underground, just outside the basement wall. I had to pay the plumber and the house damage hinges on if the pipe failed due to ground movement (not covered) or the ground moved due to the water saturation and flow. Dueling soils engineers and experts later, the insurance paid. 

Same way your car insurance won’t pay for a ball joint failure. It’ll pay for the crash that might ensue but not the mechanical failure. Important to work with your agent ahead of time to know what is covered. 

As to hitting a log. That would probably have been covered but the surveyor would look for the impact point on the rudder. 

 

Any agents want to talk about insuring a 28 YO 42 footer, a 23 ‘ bowrider and a 17’ Center console?  Chesapeake only. Agreed value policies. 1 claim about 7 years ago for a lightening strike. PM me. 

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1 hour ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Sorry about your rudder but to your homeowner’s example, most policies would not cover a broken water pipe, but only the ensuing damage caused by the pipe failure. BTDT. $35,000 in foundation damage from a failure of the supply line underground, just outside the basement wall. I had to pay the plumber and the house damage hinges on if the pipe failed due to ground movement (not covered) or the ground moved due to the water saturation and flow. Dueling soils engineers and experts later, the insurance paid. 

Same way your car insurance won’t pay for a ball joint failure. It’ll pay for the crash that might ensue but not the mechanical failure. Important to work with your agent ahead of time to know what is covered. 

As to hitting a log. That would probably have been covered but the surveyor would look for the impact point on the rudder. 

 

Any agents want to talk about insuring a 28 YO 42 footer, a 23 ‘ bowrider and a 17’ Center console?  Chesapeake only. Agreed value policies. 1 claim about 7 years ago for a lightening strike. PM me. 

After much checking around (6 - 8 usual suspect companies) by my long time friend, now my boat insurance (and soon to be homeowners etc) agent, he found coverage, for the same cost, a policy that a) pays agreed value w/o depreciation (except engine and sails older than 10 years) and will allow an offshore (Bermuda) rider.  

Sailor and he knows the drill.   I will PM IB, but if you want his contact info PM me.

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On 2/14/2018 at 6:06 PM, Ishmael said:

When I owned cheaper boats they fit under the umbrella of my home insurance.

I'd like to know more about this -- what can usually be covered this way, what kind of deal I can expect, and what I should ask for.

Currently for a 40 year old, 24' fiberglass cruising keelboat, in SC.

 

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46 minutes ago, blurocketsmate said:

I'd like to know more about this -- what can usually be covered this way, what kind of deal I can expect, and what I should ask for.

Currently for a 40 year old, 24' fiberglass cruising keelboat, in SC.

 

It's not difficult at all, just call your home insurance provider.  I was able to insure my Coronado 25 and my Pearson 30 under my home policy.  Liberty Mutual covered up to 30 feet. The Pearson was actually 29' 7".  ;)

My Tartan 33 busted that limit so I had to purchase an actual boat policy.

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I asked if Geico/BoatUS would add the deductible waiver for me (at extra cost) and they said not available in Washington State, (in addition to California as mentioned above). 

Why would anyone buy insurance (for an older boat) that only pays 20% of the value of a partial loss????  I'm at 70% with a 23 year old boat so I'm shopping.

In addition to the new onerous depreciation schedule, the premium for my 1996 Corsair 31' trimaran went from $579 in 2016 to $759 this year, ~30% in 2 years!!!  Am I wrong for not feeling like paying for the large losses in the hurricane belt this year?

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I think the only reason that anyone with an older boat would continue with a Boat US policy is if they didn't know that the coverage had changed. I'm also in the Seattle area, and got much better and less expensive coverage from State Farm. None of the other quotes I got had anything like the Boat US deductible for older boats. 

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Allstate insures my house, cars and an 18' Searay I have.  For my trimaran they quoted me essentially the same price as Boat US but there is no depreciation deduction.  Its just like a car; they fix it and pay for it, up 80% of the actual value of the boat/car.   If over 80% of actual value they total it and pay out what like kind boats/cars on the market are selling for up to my policy limit.  I've had a few minor claims with Allstate over the last 40 years (including one $8K boat claim) and they've always treated me well. 

I'm still shopping but no way will I stay with Boat US.  I'll likely will go with Allstate.  Markel, mentioned above, does not insure multihulls.  Still waiting on other quotes.

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Well I got my sailboat renewal today. Appears the reps are well versed on the question as the yong lady I got on the phone had no trouble telling me all about how this was better than their old policies and “most other insurers” where the depreciation started at 10 years and went to 90% where the new policy waits until 20 years and goes to 80%. She also insists it only applies to parts and not labor so getting dismasted would get me 20% of the material cost but 100% of the labor coverage. Basically saying repairs are fully covered but replacement (and replacement parts) are only covered at 20% (28 YO boat). Partial waiver is available in MD and covers, “railings, hard tops, T tops” and a couple of other things but I stopped listening and pointed out that most sailboats would not benefit from that coverage.  Seems clear to me with an agreed value policy, if I hit something or other damage occurs that holes the boat, I should launch the dinghy, have a beer and call a mayday on my handheld only after the boat disappears below the surface. 

Not a good time to try to get a survey with other non boat stuff going on so I’ll probably renew and talk to other insurers about a switch.

Sail69. Never heard from your guy. 

 

On the the other hand, deductible has now aged out to zero (long time. No claims) and premium is down from last year. 

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I was told I can add the waiver of depreciation to our (California) Boat US policy on May 21. Our boat is a 1979.

I was very happy with Safeco (still am for home and auto) but they doubled premiums in Santa Cruz harbor after the 2011 tsunami and we were influenced by the towing (not that I have ever needed it, but who knows). My agent for boat insurance forever who is a long time boat insurance agent in SC (as in since the 1970s) advised me to go for the Boat US policy after she reviewed it. 

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13 hours ago, msvphoto said:

I was told I can add the waiver of depreciation to our (California) Boat US policy on May 21. Our boat is a 1979.

I was very happy with Safeco (still am for home and auto) but they doubled premiums in Santa Cruz harbor after the 2011 tsunami and we were influenced by the towing (not that I have ever needed it, but who knows). My agent for boat insurance forever who is a long time boat insurance agent in SC (as in since the 1970s) advised me to go for the Boat US policy after she reviewed it. 

I would ask about the Waiver of Depreciation again...I was told that it only applies to boats less than ten years old.  Sometimes the phone reps are just not knowledgeable enough to answer the question accurately.  Ask for their supervisor.

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I am switching to Progressive bought through USAA. My quote for all three of my boats is the same as BOATUS wants for one :)

I am also going to file a complaint through the BOATUS magazine "help with vendors" thing about their insurance and see what they do :lol:

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Seems like there's a lot of this going around. My insurer, Pemco (local Seattle firm) just sent me a renewal that raised my premium by 85%. This prompted a long phone call in which they claimed that they hadn't "revalued" their mariner policies in 20 years. I confirmed that the generous guaranteed replacement value I set for my boat was independent of age (my boat just turned 25yo) and bumped my deductible from $500 up to $2500 to get the rate back down to a "mere" 25% increase. 

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I'm also gathering quotes.

Can anyone share their experiences with Berkley Recreational Marine Insurance?

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58 minutes ago, WoobaGooba said:

I'm also gathering quotes.

Can anyone share their experiences with Berkley Recreational Marine Insurance?

That's what  my new carrier is.   See earlier post on its attributes.

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I will second this.

4 hours ago, sail69 said:

I would ask about the Waiver of Depreciation again...I was told that it only applies to boats less than ten years old.  Sometimes the phone reps are just not knowledgeable enough to answer the question accurately.  Ask for their supervisor.

I had to come up with very specific scenarios, lay them out clearly, and the phone representative had to have a lengthy consult with a supervisor before I could get an answer. The result was that for an older boat that is damaged but not a total loss, my coverage would have been a maximum of 20% of the cost of repair, less my deductible. No mention was made of any distinction between parts and labor. In any case, "Parts" doesn't have much relevance to a 47 year old one-off sailboat with damage to the hull.  Is the hull a "part"? Interior cabinetry? I'd look carefully at the language in this waiver. 

My State Farm policy is explicit about covering repairs to put damage back to previous condition. The deductible they explicitly apply is to electronics, which to me is totally understandable. 

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6 hours ago, sail69 said:

I would ask about the Waiver of Depreciation again...I was told that it only applies to boats less than ten years old.  Sometimes the phone reps are just not knowledgeable enough to answer the question accurately.  Ask for their supervisor.

I am working with the "VP & Director of Marine Insurance Sales, Service & Underwriting" which is pretty high in the food chain.

We'll see what happens May 21.

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1 hour ago, Oceanconcepts said:

I will second this.

I had to come up with very specific scenarios, lay them out clearly, and the phone representative had to have a lengthy consult with a supervisor before I could get an answer. The result was that for an older boat that is damaged but not a total loss, my coverage would have been a maximum of 20% of the cost of repair, less my deductible. No mention was made of any distinction between parts and labor. In any case, "Parts" doesn't have much relevance to a 47 year old one-off sailboat with damage to the hull.  Is the hull a "part"? Interior cabinetry? I'd look carefully at the language in this waiver. 

My State Farm policy is explicit about covering repairs to put damage back to previous condition. The deductible they explicitly apply is to electronics, which to me is totally understandable. 

The WoD endorsement reads as follows: We will not deduct depreciation for repair or replacement of the following: a. fiberglass, plastic or wood hull materials; b. masts and spars; c. metal supports and framing for attached towers, T-tops and hard tops; d. bow, stern or deck railing; and e. glass.

Right now I am laid up with an ankle failure and most of my 2018 sailing season is now pretty much out the window until sometime in August, or so, after I recover from surgery May 22 :angry: 

Barring another tsunami, I think Wildflower is relatively safe in her slip while I wait for Boat US to sort this out. If they don't, I'll probably switch back to Safeco since I get cross policy discounts for home and auto and was only lured away for the boat coverage by an attractive rate.

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3 hours ago, sail69 said:

That's what  my new carrier is.   See earlier post on its attributes.

Yes I see you just switched to them.

I'm hoping for some feedback from folks that have been with Berkley for some period of time, claims, etc.

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This is an awesome thread. I confirmed the depreciation value for my Boat US/Geico policy on my 30 year old boat. Got quotes with USAA/Progressive, and State Farm. State Farm appears to be 50% of my Boat US policy without any depreciation clauses. Almost seems too good to be true?

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32 minutes ago, msvphoto said:

The WoD endorsement reads as follows: We will not deduct depreciation for repair or replacement of the following: a. fiberglass, plastic or wood hull materials; b. masts and spars; c. metal supports and framing for attached towers, T-tops and hard tops; d. bow, stern or deck railing; and e. glass.

Right now I am laid up with an ankle failure and most of my 2018 sailing season is now pretty much out the window until sometime in August, or so, after I recover from surgery May 22 :angry: 

Barring another tsunami, I think Wildflower is relatively safe in her slip while I wait for Boat US to sort this out. If they don't, I'll probably switch back to Safeco since I get cross policy discounts for home and auto and was only lured away for the boat coverage by an attractive rate.

That sounds much more reasonable with the endorsement. Apparently that endorsement is not available in Washington state- or wasn't when I asked. 

I hear you about the sailing season- my season, and my boat projects, just took a big hit last week when I broke my right scapula while staging an impromptu test of bike helmet efficacy. Fortunately he helmet worked very well, but my right arm isn't working much at all. :angry: And the left is not much better. 

Hope the SC harbor stays tsunami free, and also free of anchovy invasions- I grew up in Carmel, and lived in Santa Cruz from starting college in '70 through the late '80's, minus a few side excursions. That's where I started sailing bigger boats. 

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1 hour ago, msvphoto said:

The WoD endorsement reads as follows: We will not deduct depreciation for repair or replacement of the following: a. fiberglass, plastic or wood hull materials; b. masts and spars; c. metal supports and framing for attached towers, T-tops and hard tops; d. bow, stern or deck railing; and e. glass.

Right now I am laid up with an ankle failure and most of my 2018 sailing season is now pretty much out the window until sometime in August, or so, after I recover from surgery May 22 :angry: 

Barring another tsunami, I think Wildflower is relatively safe in her slip while I wait for Boat US to sort this out. If they don't, I'll probably switch back to Safeco since I get cross policy discounts for home and auto and was only lured away for the boat coverage by an attractive rate.

Yes the WoD endorsement reads that but again I was told it is only available (maybe My state, Massachusetts, is the other state in which the waiver is not approved?) on boats less than 10 years old...

My wife is having her total ankle replacement done again (5 years later) because the part used is faulty.   I feel your pain (at least as much as a caretaker/bystander can).

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