WGWarburton

Future Olympic lightweight-female dinghy

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I can't find a thread on this- please point me in the right direction if I've simply failed to locate it!

 

 There are rumours of a second women's singlehanded class for the Olympics (2024?), intended to cater for those of a smaller build. Anyone have any insight as to what it's likely to be?

Possibities:

  1. Reintroduce the Europe
  2. Laser 4.7
  3. Byte
  4. Aero (5?)
  5. Waszp

I daresay there are other candidates...?

I don't see the Europe coming back- that might suggest that dropping it had been a mistake and the issue of high development costs could be hard to close off.

The 4.7 has obvious and significant advantages in terms of cost, availability and reach but is not exactly a modern design ( ! ). It's a lot of hull for a lightweight sailor to throw around and was obviously designed for a bigger sail.

The Byte CII could be a candidate (already featured in youth Olympics?) but although more recent than the 4.7 it's still not "modern" and seems to lack the broad support base. Could be seen as a poor compromise instead of a best of both worlds solution. Reasonable proportion  of female sailors but overall numbers quite low for an established class.

 Aero-5 looks plausible... relatively new class, growing. Could possibly be adapted to foiling later? Would the class scale well in terms of volume manufacture, consistency, durability etc

 Waszp doesn't currently seem to be popular with female sailors but looks more modern. Is it likely to fit the target size range?

It's easy to think there would be a desire for a foiling design but I'm not aware of a foiler that's currently popular with lightweight female sailors... maybe someone who knows better could kindly help mitigate my ignorance? My feeling is that foiling isn't yet mature enough to fit the "inexpensive" one-design aspirations that are supposed to allow less-affluent countries to compete but that's probably a tangent to revisit another time...

 Anyone close to the discussions and able to offer an educated view on what the end-point is likely to look like, assuming the selection goes this way?

Cheers,

              W.

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On 10/02/2018 at 7:47 AM, WGWarburton said:

I can't find a thread on this- please point me in the right direction if I've simply failed to locate it!

 

 There are rumours of a second women's singlehanded class for the Olympics (2024?), intended to cater for those of a smaller build. Anyone have any insight as to what it's likely to be?

Possibities:

  1. Reintroduce the Europe
  2. Laser 4.7
  3. Byte
  4. Aero (5?)
  5. Waszp

I daresay there are other candidates...?

I don't see the Europe coming back- that might suggest that dropping it had been a mistake and the issue of high development costs could be hard to close off.

The 4.7 has obvious and significant advantages in terms of cost, availability and reach but is not exactly a modern design ( ! ). It's a lot of hull for a lightweight sailor to throw around and was obviously designed for a bigger sail.

The Byte CII could be a candidate (already featured in youth Olympics?) but although more recent than the 4.7 it's still not "modern" and seems to lack the broad support base. Could be seen as a poor compromise instead of a best of both worlds solution. Reasonable proportion  of female sailors but overall numbers quite low for an established class.

 Aero-5 looks plausible... relatively new class, growing. Could possibly be adapted to foiling later? Would the class scale well in terms of volume manufacture, consistency, durability etc

 Waszp doesn't currently seem to be popular with female sailors but looks more modern. Is it likely to fit the target size range?

It's easy to think there would be a desire for a foiling design but I'm not aware of a foiler that's currently popular with lightweight female sailors... maybe someone who knows better could kindly help mitigate my ignorance? My feeling is that foiling isn't yet mature enough to fit the "inexpensive" one-design aspirations that are supposed to allow less-affluent countries to compete but that's probably a tangent to revisit another time...

 Anyone close to the discussions and able to offer an educated view on what the end-point is likely to look like, assuming the selection goes this way?

Cheers,

              W.

i'd say that the boat will be none of these

the most likely out of those 4 would be the byte i'd say

i would think that foiling would be brought in to both male and female at the same time, and the laser 4.7 would be too similar to the other lasers

maybe the Aero 5 with some mods? 

i would say that the boat will be built to fill the spot rather than an existing boat

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1 hour ago, inebriated said:

i would think that foiling would be brought in to both male and female at the same time, and the laser 4.7 would be too similar to the other lasers

maybe the Aero 5 with some mods? 

I doubt that an Aero 5 will foil very well. Heavier than a Moth, barely 60% of the sail area (5.2 vs 8.25 m2) and a stickier hull. Also no racks or wings to help generate RM and speed to get foiling upwind. It might go OK downwind if there's enough breeze to get foiling, but the angles might be pretty awful.

If a single handed foiler is the requirement, far better to either go for a WASZP or develop a new boat that is very Moth-like.

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Probably a new boat designed by committee that will satisfy no one.

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On 11/02/2018 at 7:37 PM, RobG said:

I doubt that an Aero 5 will foil very well. Heavier than a Moth, barely 60% of the sail area (5.2 vs 8.25 m2) and a stickier hull. Also no racks or wings to help generate RM and speed to get foiling upwind. It might go OK downwind if there's enough breeze to get foiling, but the angles might be pretty awful.

If a single handed foiler is the requirement, far better to either go for a WASZP or develop a new boat that is very Moth-like.

sorry hahaha

i never meant that the aero 5 would foil, that'd be silly

i think that something similar to an aero 5 could be a non foiling lightweight dingy

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Laser 4.7 - hull way too heavy for the sail area

Europe - with current rules, crew weight around 70

Aero - looks interesting, no personal experience

Waszp or other foiling - Will probably not be implemented as a "light-weight female dinghy"

   

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Europe is a lovely responsive boat but large amounts were spent by richer countries on spar development before it was replaced by the Radial.

Aero feels a lot like the Europe but without that "the boom is trying to kill me" feeling. Would be a good choice IMO but not as a foiler.

Waszp doesn't really seem to be getting traction.

 

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Hmm, food for thought.  Thanks for the responses.

 It'll be interesting to see if there's a move to push for a new foiling boat, doesn't seem to be an obvious way forward at the moment. 

In which case the Aero looks like a popular option, though it doesn't have the massive existing support of the 4.7... Note that competitive sailors in the 4.7 fleets of Europe tend to be bigger than you might expect... although traditionally treated as a Junior (<15) class in the UK, the sailors at the front of the fleet are generally of Youth age (15-18).

For countries with existing performance programmes orientated towards the Radial/Full rigs the 4.7 has obvious appeal and for countries with smaller budgets the availability of Lasers is hard to beat. 

Can't help feeling that the optimal weight for a 4.7 will depend hugely on the conditions for the event,  though; the Aero might not be quite so sensitive? 

Cheers, 

                W.

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Sorry but its 2018 and surely we can come up with something more modern, lighter and more efficient / fun to sail than the laser 4.7 :(

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How many Lasers do you need?

Why not the RSX? Optimal weight is 55-60kg. The class is already well developed with many women competitors. 

That is if the unfortunate situation develops that the kites come in. 

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THE NEW DINGY WILL NOT BE FOILING

it just wont happen without a similar boat in the mens

and the waszp is gaining massive traction in Australia, here are about 10-15 or so in perth which is pretty good seeing as they are all brand new

whats more, the Australian moth nationals had the same size fleet as the Waszp nationals

this being said, it still won't be in the olympics

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More accurately, the new event (if approved) will target average size rather than small women.

The top female Radial sailors are way above average in height and weight. You have to be a bare minimum of 5'8 and a strong 68-70kg to race the Radial at the top level. That's the female equivalent of a male Finn sailor. The average woman worldwide is 5'2 or 5'3 with a healthy weight range of about 50 - 62kg according to BMI (yes I know it's a flawed indicator). 

To tick the IOC boxes, the class also needs to be cheap and accessible to encourage a wider global spread. That's why the Laser won't disappear from the Olympics any time soon.

The 4.7 isn't the answer but Laser are working on a new rig. I bet you can guess what weight range they're targeting. 

 

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I think the 4.7 serves a purpose.  Parents have an adolescent kid coming out of Optis who is still a little too small for even a Radial.  It's a little underpowered for the boat, but the 4.7 will get them out sailing.  Six months later after a growth spurt, the kid can move on to the Radial.  The parents only have to invest in a lower spar and a sail instead of a whole new boat.

An Olympic class it ain't.

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Hi,

      Hmm, lots of hate for the 4.7, despite wide availability, relatively inexpensive cost, established class association and so on...

 There are decent sized fleets of them racing (50 or so in the UK, more on the continent, don't know about grassroots sailing in Oceania and the Americas but the sailors that come to the Worlds seem to do ok).

 I take the point that it's not a "modern" dinghy... but is it really sensible to start from scratch or adopt an existing class which lacks the international spread and support to enable easy access? 

If not,  is there an alternative? 

Cheers,

               W.

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Given we're talking about 2024 we can only hope that they go to trial for a new platform that can equip mens and womens heavy and light weight disciplines with 3-4 different rig sizes.

The most depressing outcome would be that they make radial rig slightly larger and a new rig for lightweight female.

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Given the long-running legal shitfest concerning the Laser trademark holder, the various manufacturers, the designer and the class association, I sincerely hope WS would not touch the Laser with a 10 foot pole as far as adoption of a further variant as an Olympic class is concerned.

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On 2/14/2018 at 1:46 AM, redstar said:

 

The 4.7 isn't the answer but Laser are working on a new rig. I bet you can guess what weight range they're targeting. 

 

 

A 4th rig? Details?! I find that to be wildly entertaining considering the shit storm they are already in, but I'm open to the idea. The Radial women are a man-ish bunch! ( The Europe dinghy girls were much more attractive!) 

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On 14/02/2018 at 4:49 PM, inebriated said:

THE NEW DINGY WILL NOT BE FOILING

it just wont happen without a similar boat in the mens

 

maybe someone can explain why there's womens/mens split at all in olympic sailing?

Just make it a 'lightweight'  dinghy class

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1 hour ago, duncan (the other one) said:

maybe someone can explain why there's womens/mens split at all in olympic sailing?

Just make it a 'lightweight'  dinghy class

pretty much all of the boats in Olympic sailing have an equivalent in the opposite sex, FX to the 49er, the radial to the full rig, the 470's. for years, we have seen the progression into similar craft for both genders with the exception of the finn, which has been recommended for review, and there is a solid chance that it will be gone due to the fact that the weight range for nearly all is unrealistic.

i can see a smaller dingy for the girls, as the radial weight can be unrealistic for some, there is a market for it, however i do not think there will be a market for a lightweight mens dingy as the STD laser is not too hard to fit into,  there won't be a new foiling class though without something similar in the mens

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2 minutes ago, inebriated said:

pretty much all of the boats in Olympic sailing have an equivalent in the opposite sex, FX to the 49er, the radial to the full rig, the 470's. for years, we have seen the progression into similar craft for both genders with the exception of the finn, which has been recommended for review, and there is a solid chance that it will be gone due to the fact that the weight range for nearly all is unrealistic.

i can see a smaller dingy for the girls, as the radial weight can be unrealistic for some, there is a market for it, however i do not think there will be a market for a lightweight mens dingy as the STD laser is not too hard to fit into,  there won't be a new foiling class though without something similar in the mens

my point is sailing is the perfect sport where gender does not matter.

Have the olympic class mix based on # people (fixed per class, obviously), and weight (distribute dinghy classes across reasonable body mass range)).

 

lightweight / mid-weight / heavy single handers (eg: radial / laser / finn), and similarly for two-handed.

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1 hour ago, duncan (the other one) said:

my point is sailing is the perfect sport where gender does not matter.

I have to strongly disagree there, especially in single handed boats. Men have a very distinct power to weight advantage that women can't match (huge generalisation and of course there are exceptions but not many). In International 420s the women can certainly hold their own, but mostly because their lighter weight makes up for their lower power (more generalisations I know). 420s don't really benefit from being muscled around a course, they reward trim and finesse more. I expect the 29er to be similar.

I thought Moths would be the perfect no–gender bias boat, but after watching some nationals and world championships, changed my view completely. Once the wind is over about 12kn, the men can put a lot more physical effort into getting foiling and especially foil tacks. Done right, they're like a massive (perfectly legal) pump, a bit like a roll tack on steroids. Going upwind there's a lot of kinetics going on that takes strength and stamina: the harder you hike and work the main, the faster you go.

You only need look at how few women compete in Moth worlds and nationals (and the placings of those that do) to see how favoured the men are. Hence the need for women–only events, but that will only happen if there's something like an Olympic or World Championship women–only event as an aspiration.

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6 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

my point is sailing is the perfect sport where gender does not matter.

Have the olympic class mix based on # people (fixed per class, obviously), and weight (distribute dinghy classes across reasonable body mass range)).

 

lightweight / mid-weight / heavy single handers (eg: radial / laser / finn), and similarly for two-handed.

Unfortunately, the evidence doesn't support this. Gender does matter. Specifically for this conversation, if you look at the results for dinghies like the Topper and L4.7, as the sailors mature through their teenage years the boys generally place higher than the girls. There are, of course, exceptions, but it seems from the results sheets that the girls+women are not in a position to compete on a level playing field with the boys+men.

 You could suggest that it's because the girls are simply not as good but I don't think that's really a defensible position. To the extent that I would even argue it.

 I'd be interested to see results for other dinghies- what singlehander do teenagers sail in Oz, for example... Are the girls evenly represented at the top of the results sheet there? 

 The Splash seems to feature in several countries with strong sailing teams- Netherlands, NZ, Belgium... I don't know the boat, it looks quite traditional but the hull weight is lower than the Laser and there's a choice of rigs... the standard one looking overly tall and powerful for lightweights to my eye... The results sheets from the worlds don't seem to be split by gender but feature the usual dearth of girls.

Cheers,

               W.

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The back story for this to me is the desire to kick the 470 to touch. To do that you need a boat for the former 470 helms to sail.

Mixed in one thing but open does not seem to go down with the IOC. So even if in reality a mens lightweight and womens heavy weight might be the same rig it's hard to see them as a single class.

What we looking at?

Mens lightweight single dinghy

Womens light weight single dinghy

Mens heavy weight single dinghy

Womens heavy weight single dinghy

... all the same hulls with different rigs

Mens skiff

Womens skiff

... 49er hull with different rigs

Mixed multi

Mixed offshore

... takes us to 8

Leaving the show down on mens and womens board sailing between kites and windsurfers

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Hi,

      I'm not sure the 470 is being targeted to be dropped. The rumours I've seen propose:

Male Heavy       Finn

Male Light       Laser Std

Female Heavy     Laser Radial

Female Light     <this thread>

Mixed Dinghy     470

Mixed Skiff      49er

Mixed Offshore   ??? (Double-handed, though)

Plus Male & Female kites/windsurfers etc TBC

 So an even gender split across classes/events (assuming two genders...).

Looking at the specifications for likely dinghy candidates, my current thinking is that the Byte looks to tick a fair number of the boxes and seems a more conservative option for the powers-that-be than the Aero would be.

Cheers,

               W.

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

Hi,

      I'm not sure the 470 is being targeted to be dropped. The rumours I've seen propose:

Male Heavy       Finn

Male Light       Laser Std

Female Heavy     Laser Radial

Female Light     <this thread>

Mixed Dinghy     470

Mixed Skiff      49er

Mixed Offshore   ??? (Double-handed, though)

Plus Male & Female kites/windsurfers etc TBC

 So an even gender split across classes/events (assuming two genders...).

Looking at the specifications for likely dinghy candidates, my current thinking is that the Byte looks to tick a fair number of the boxes and seems a more conservative option for the powers-that-be than the Aero would be.

Cheers,

               W.

i'd tend to agree with this model, i find it somewhat unrealistic that the finn will stay for a whole lot longer to be honest, and i think that the kites or windsurfers will be foiling to attract public interest a bit more

i am assuming that you forgot about the nacra, i cant see that going anywhere soon and if it was up to me, i would even put the 470 as a mixed class similar to the nacra and leave the 49er setup alone, this being said, it is not up to me hahaha

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29 minutes ago, inebriated said:

i'd tend to agree with this model, i find it somewhat unrealistic that the finn will stay for a whole lot longer to be honest, and i think that the kites or windsurfers will be foiling to attract public interest a bit more

i am assuming that you forgot about the nacra, i cant see that going anywhere soon and if it was up to me, i would even put the 470 as a mixed class similar to the nacra and leave the 49er setup alone, this being said, it is not up to me hahaha

Oops, yes. Forgot the Cats. I think the proposal was for foiling kiteboards... personally, I have a hard time seeing those as "sailing" but that's probably just a sign of age. Been watching some of the winter Olympics and I'm not really buying some of the new events there, either... Perhaps someday we'll get re-branded as "WindSports" and be the only Olympic Sport that's changed its name twice :-).

Cheers,

              W. 

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6 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Oops, yes. Forgot the Cats. I think the proposal was for foiling kiteboards... personally, I have a hard time seeing those as "sailing" but that's probably just a sign of age. Been watching some of the winter Olympics and I'm not really buying some of the new events there, either... Perhaps someday we'll get re-branded as "WindSports" and be the only Olympic Sport that's changed its name twice :-).

Cheers,

              W. 

New winter Olympic sport? Move the light weight women to the winter Olympics and go with a DN!

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Opti. It is all over the world and well designed for little people 

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It looks like Tillerman dropped the ball on this one, so I'm going to say it because it weighs exactly half the weight of a Laser.

Aero 5

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16 minutes ago, Eddie_E said:

It looks like Tillerman dropped the ball on this one, so I'm going to say it because it weighs exactly half the weight of a Laser.

Aero 5

The RS Aero is doing just fine without Olympic status.

When I was sailing Lasers last century I lived through the transition of that class to Olympic status.  I saw no real benefit to me as an ordinary class member. In fact the only impact I can remember was that hordes of Mommy Boats started showing up at big regattas to pamper all the kiddos who had delusions of qualifying for the Olympics one day. 



 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

The RS Aero is doing just fine without Olympic status.

When I was sailing Lasers last century I lived through the transition of that class to Olympic status.  I saw no real benefit to me as an ordinary class member. In fact the only impact I can remember was that hordes of Mommy Boats started showing up at big regattas to pamper all the kiddos who had delusions of qualifying for the Olympics one day. 



 

I don't think that would be much of an issue unless it was adopted as an institutional youth trainer as well. Plus most of the younger Team USA sailors are on college sailing teams now and campaign their boat in the off season

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:

The RS Aero is doing just fine without Olympic status.

When I was sailing Lasers last century I lived through the transition of that class to Olympic status.  I saw no real benefit to me as an ordinary class member. In fact the only impact I can remember was that hordes of Mommy Boats started showing up at big regattas to pamper all the kiddos who had delusions of qualifying for the Olympics one day. 



 

I was never a fan of the Laser becoming an Olympic class.  Ironically given the current ownership and management, Olympic class status may be the only thing helping the builder stay on.

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16 hours ago, tillerman said:

The RS Aero is doing just fine without Olympic status.
 

I sailed the Europe at the time it became a Women's Olympic boat and what had been a happy niche class for lightweights of both genders faded away because a small number of sailors had multiple times the sailing time and budget of everyone else. I very much hope the Aero does not become an Olympic class.

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One of the advantages of the moth class from never being in the olympics but just a great boat is it attracts lots of great guys who have been olympians but no longer have mum and dad in tow or a flotilla of coach boats. Sorry could not resist.

 

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A low rider one design flat bottom skinny Moth with a slightly smaller unstayed 2 part carbon mast medium tech sail might tick all the boxes.  Mandate ply hulls, wood foils. carbon tube/mesh wings. Light and cheap, interesting performance level, would demand Olympic level chops to sail, make it easy to take apart to transport in a box the length and width of the hull and etc etc

 

 

 

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Is there really a significant difference between a ladies Singlehander and a lightweight ladies Singlehander? I know a kg or two is supposed to make all the difference, and the average Radial sailor is above average for a fit woman, but still.. Surely one boat, for marginally less weight than the Radial, would suit a wide enough demographic.

Better to use the extra woman's event for an actually different event rather then the same event (fleet racing) in a subtlety different design. Elimination racing a la Bang the Corner Moth racing requires different tactics. Or team racing.  But fleet racing in Radials and Bytes?  That's just double vision.

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Ditch 'em all and everyone sail a 2.4m. 

No chance or limited chance for kinetics, weight equalisation, all as fair as it can get, no men's and women's classes

I'm fed up with crash and burn sailing. It's dull to watch after the first few falls, no one can see what's going on, everyone looks like a corporate clone.

Lets get back to the Game of Sailing and see who is the best tactician, has the most mental strength and resilience. 

 

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1 hour ago, Dart96 said:

Ditch 'em all and everyone sail a 2.4m. 

No chance or limited chance for kinetics, weight equalisation, all as fair as it can get, no men's and women's classes

I'm fed up with crash and burn sailing. It's dull to watch after the first few falls, no one can see what's going on, everyone looks like a corporate clone.

Lets get back to the Game of Sailing and see who is the best tactician, has the most mental strength and resilience. 

 

Great idea.

Make the competition totally independent of physical strength or fitness or agility. 

A level playing field for all - big, small, men, women, abled and disabled.

A pure mental game.

Wait.  Why not go the whole hog and move the Olympic sailing to SailX?

 

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21 hours ago, Phil S said:

One of the advantages of the moth class from never being in the olympics but just a great boat is it attracts lots of great guys who have been olympians but no longer have mum and dad in tow or a flotilla of coach boats. Sorry could not resist.

 

no, instead, the top guys just have shore teams and shit tones of money themselves

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6 hours ago, tillerman said:

Great idea.

Make the competition totally independent of physical strength or fitness or agility. 

A level playing field for all - big, small, men, women, abled and disabled.

A pure mental game.

Wait.  Why not go the whole hog and move the Olympic sailing to SailX?

 

wouldn't mind that at all

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On 2018-02-09 at 5:47 PM, WGWarburton said:

There are rumours of a second women's singlehanded class for the Olympics (2024?), intended to cater for those of a smaller build. Anyone have any insight as to what it's likely to be?

Possibities:

  1. Reintroduce the Europe
  2. Laser 4.7
  3. Byte
  4. Aero (5?)
  5. Waszp

I daresay there are other candidates...?I

Rumour has it that the El Toro is a strong contender.

maxresdefault.jpg

Apparently some people are still lobbying for the Optimist, but that would be limited to a still smaller build of female sailor so probably no go. I guess time will tell.

0682281189547677683358499b3a1f62--sailin

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12 hours ago, Svanen said:

 

Apparently some people are still lobbying for the Optimist, but that would be limited to a still smaller build of female sailor so probably no go. I guess time will tell.

 

I hope this is a joke.  Even if true, not sure who could sail them.  Minimum age for Olympics is 16 and Maximum age for IODA is 15.

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Red Star said "The average woman worldwide is 5'2 or 5'3 with a healthy weight range of about 50 - 62kg according to BMI (yes I know it's a flawed indicator)"

People who want to race sailboats at the highest level will find a class that suits, or they will do something different.

So if we want average women to sail in the olympics and we want it to be as Cheap and Inclusive as possible then we need a cheap and inclusive boat for that weight range, so which boat can be as cheap as possible and inclusive as possible? Laser 4.7 would work, who cares if it is not Optimal!

B****r foiling, too fast to understand and they get too spread out for it to be fun, it's even less interesting than F1.

 

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:

It's obvious that the solution is the Cape Cod Frosty - the world's smallest and most fun racing dinghy.

Taft_Frosty5_1100px.jpg

Loved the CC frostys. Did a few off seasons in Toronto and they had a good fleet there (TS&CC).

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On 2018-02-17 at 10:05 AM, tillerman said:

The RS Aero is doing just fine without Olympic status.

When I was sailing Lasers last century I lived through the transition of that class to Olympic status.  I saw no real benefit to me as an ordinary class member. In fact the only impact I can remember was that hordes of Mommy Boats started showing up at big regattas to pamper all the kiddos who had delusions of qualifying for the Olympics one day.

This in part is why International 14 sailors don't want their boat to be selected as an Olympic type: they don't want to attract owners and crews who have no real commitment to developing and promoting the class.

Additionally, they don't want the IOC controlling the class rules.

Int-14-019.jpg

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So, it seems like they just finished voting on Phase 1 of:

Phase 1 - Decide what to review, and by default what would remain. The minimum number of boats up for review, by rule, was 4. The decision today is to review 5.
Phase 2 - Decide the Events (high level description of what the racing should be) for the balance of the 5 events. This begins in Mid-March and concludes in a vote at the World Sailing mid-year meeting on May 15th in London.
Phase 3 - Decide which equipment should be used by the nominated events. This vote can occur at the November 2018 meeting, with provisions to extend for an additional year if new boat designs are required.

Classes/events NOT up for review: 49er/FX, Laser/Radial, Nacra 17

The driver for this is gender equality in terms of the number of events AND number of participants + the IOC now reviewing at the event level rather than sport as a whole.

If we take it that mixed offshore is in at the behest of the IOC that leave space for 2 gender split events, or 1 gender split event and 2 mixed events

For the Finn to survive it would have to be paired with a women's light weight event.

That's really pretty unfortunate as we should be discussing what's the womens needs are, rather than what option should be foisted on the women in order to protect an established class.

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9 hours ago, Svanen said:

This in part is why International 14 sailors don't want their boat to be selected as an Olympic type:

They can stop stressing then. Hell will freeze over first.

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On 2/17/2018 at 9:05 AM, tillerman said:

The RS Aero is doing just fine without Olympic status.

When I was sailing Lasers last century I lived through the transition of that class to Olympic status.  I saw no real benefit to me as an ordinary class member. In fact the only impact I can remember was that hordes of Mommy Boats started showing up at big regattas to pamper all the kiddos who had delusions of qualifying for the Olympics one day. 



 

In its first ~25 years of existence, the Laser went almost entirely unchanged (the color of your hull was pretty much the exception).  The boat was an absolute beast to sail.  Since the 1996 games, we've gotten new control line adjustments, a more durable sail, more durable foils, and a more durable top section.  It's a much better boat.

Also, there is the tremendous amount of trickle-down of knowledge that comes with having the boat tuned at the Olympic level.  Without the Olympics, we probably still wouldn't be doing downwind S-curves yet.

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50 minutes ago, Looper said:

In its first ~25 years of existence, the Laser went almost entirely unchanged (the color of your hull was pretty much the exception).  The boat was an absolute beast to sail.  Since the 1996 games, we've gotten new control line adjustments, a more durable sail, more durable foils, and a more durable top section.  It's a much better boat.

Also, there is the tremendous amount of trickle-down of knowledge that comes with having the boat tuned at the Olympic level.  Without the Olympics, we probably still wouldn't be doing downwind S-curves yet.

I'm not sure the improvements to the Laser are anything to do with Olympic status.

Since 1989 the Sunfish has had a new racing sail, much better foils, and improvements to sail controls. It's a much better boat now. But nothing at all to do with the Olympics.

In fact the changes to the Sunfish sail and foils are more fundamental than the changes to Laser sail and foils (which were all about durability.)  You could argue that NOT being an Olympic class gives the class association much great latitude to improve the boat.

 

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9 hours ago, rgeek said:

So, it seems like they just finished voting on Phase 1 of:

Phase 1 - Decide what to review, and by default what would remain. The minimum number of boats up for review, by rule, was 4. The decision today is to review 5.
Phase 2 - Decide the Events (high level description of what the racing should be) for the balance of the 5 events. This begins in Mid-March and concludes in a vote at the World Sailing mid-year meeting on May 15th in London.
Phase 3 - Decide which equipment should be used by the nominated events. This vote can occur at the November 2018 meeting, with provisions to extend for an additional year if new boat designs are required.

Classes/events NOT up for review: 49er/FX, Laser/Radial, Nacra 17

The driver for this is gender equality in terms of the number of events AND number of participants + the IOC now reviewing at the event level rather than sport as a whole.

If we take it that mixed offshore is in at the behest of the IOC that leave space for 2 gender split events, or 1 gender split event and 2 mixed events

For the Finn to survive it would have to be paired with a women's light weight event.

That's really pretty unfortunate as we should be discussing what's the womens needs are, rather than what option should be foisted on the women in order to protect an established class.

Is there a consensus concerning what women's Olympic sailing needs might be?  Any thoughts? Links? 

 

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

Is there a consensus concerning what women's Olympic sailing needs might be?  Any thoughts? Links? 

Well, Olympic sailing has generally been fleet racing and the experiment with match racing didn't set the world alight... If there was a significant sector of the sport where women tended to congregate then it would probably be a strong contender for an event... My understanding of the current agenda is that the goal is to eliminate the gender imbalance within the current framework. Preferably in such a way as to make the sport overall more accessible to less affluent nations. Sailing sticks out as particularly expensive to host, along with the equestrian events.

 So, the absence of a class ("event" in Olympic terms) where "normal" sized women (by world standards) can compete after training in a relatively inexpensive, widely available boat is a bit of an embarrassment and makes it harder for the sport to maintain it's place in the circus.

 So, while we can probably expect the event slate to continue to change, the likely short-term impact is the introduction of the offshore class, some tweaking of the double-handers to achieve gender balance without too much disruption to the status quo, the usual screw-up over windsurfers, foiling kites etc that will please a few and piss-off many more AND the introduction of a single-hander fleet racing dinghy to allow women of a less strapping build to race and hence preserve the Laser/Finn setup for the blokes.

 Currently, the training pathway for girls in the UK, and presumably elsewhere, loses interest in female single-handed sailors who are not going to reach 170cm+ (5'7"), as they are unlikely to be competitive in a Radial. With the skiffs and cats being powerful boats, also demanding weight and height, their options come down to helming a 420/470 or making an early exit from the programme... Now obviously introducing a single, four-yearly Olympic slot for these sailors is not going to mean that there will be a vast sea of opportunity but it would mean that there's a development pathway for them to follow for longer before they step off it to go and do something else in the sport, hopefully having enjoyed themselves, pushed the lucky few hard enough to get them to the top and developed the sort of skills and contacts to keep them engaged...

 Jumping ahead to the assumption that the powers-that-be will decide to introduce such an event leads us to speculate which boat will be selected to meet the criteria... hence the discussion. A new (or modified) class might be the way... the Nacra and FX are both specific for the Olympics, as (it seems?) the Offshore boat is likely to be... but selecting an existing class, especially one with a broad geographic spread and inexpensive cost-of-entry would make the event much more accessible to, at least some, less affluent countries... 

 This is what phase three will be about- assessing which existing classes meet the criteria and possibly delaying the selection to allow a competition for new designs if none are deemed suitable.

 Personally, I think it would make sense to select an existing class quickly, preferably a common one, and then expect to review and change again in another cycle or two, as foiling matures and designs stabilise... the recent flip-flopping over kites and reintroducing keelboats isn't doing Olympic Sailing any favours.

 The 4.7 ticks a lot of boxes but I suspect selecting it would be seen as a narrow-minded retrograde step by a bunch of disconnected dinosaurs, at least by some sections of the community (see comments upthread)... The Byte or Aero a bit less so, though many would still see it as little different from the existing boats (perhaps that's the point, though?). 

 Interesting that there don't seem to be other strong candidates coming forward. Given the enormous number of different designs there have been through the years... 

 I have little confidence that the choice will be sensible...

 Cheers,

                W.

 

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

I'm not sure the improvements to the Laser are anything to do with Olympic status.

Since 1989 the Sunfish has had a new racing sail, much better foils, and improvements to sail controls. It's a much better boat now. But nothing at all to do with the Olympics.

In fact the changes to the Sunfish sail and foils are more fundamental than the changes to Laser sail and foils (which were all about durability.)  You could argue that NOT being an Olympic class gives the class association much great latitude to improve the boat.

 

I think we just found our new Olympic class!

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54 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Well, Olympic sailing has generally been fleet racing and the experiment with match racing didn't set the world alight... If there was a significant sector of the sport where women tended to congregate then it would probably be a strong contender for an event... My understanding of the current agenda is that the goal is to eliminate the gender imbalance within the current framework. Preferably in such a way as to make the sport overall more accessible to less affluent nations. Sailing sticks out as particularly expensive to host, along with the equestrian events.

 So, the absence of a class ("event" in Olympic terms) where "normal" sized women (by world standards) can compete after training in a relatively inexpensive, widely available boat is a bit of an embarrassment and makes it harder for the sport to maintain it's place in the circus.

 So, while we can probably expect the event slate to continue to change, the likely short-term impact is the introduction of the offshore class, some tweaking of the double-handers to achieve gender balance without too much disruption to the status quo, the usual screw-up over windsurfers, foiling kites etc that will please a few and piss-off many more AND the introduction of a single-hander fleet racing dinghy to allow women of a less strapping build to race and hence preserve the Laser/Finn setup for the blokes.

 Currently, the training pathway for girls in the UK, and presumably elsewhere, loses interest in female single-handed sailors who are not going to reach 170cm+ (5'7"), as they are unlikely to be competitive in a Radial. With the skiffs and cats being powerful boats, also demanding weight and height, their options come down to helming a 420/470 or making an early exit from the programme... Now obviously introducing a single, four-yearly Olympic slot for these sailors is not going to mean that there will be a vast sea of opportunity but it would mean that there's a development pathway for them to follow for longer before they step off it to go and do something else in the sport, hopefully having enjoyed themselves, pushed the lucky few hard enough to get them to the top and developed the sort of skills and contacts to keep them engaged...

 Jumping ahead to the assumption that the powers-that-be will decide to introduce such an event leads us to speculate which boat will be selected to meet the criteria... hence the discussion. A new (or modified) class might be the way... the Nacra and FX are both specific for the Olympics, as (it seems?) the Offshore boat is likely to be... but selecting an existing class, especially one with a broad geographic spread and inexpensive cost-of-entry would make the event much more accessible to, at least some, less affluent countries... 

 This is what phase three will be about- assessing which existing classes meet the criteria and possibly delaying the selection to allow a competition for new designs if none are deemed suitable.

 Personally, I think it would make sense to select an existing class quickly, preferably a common one, and then expect to review and change again in another cycle or two, as foiling matures and designs stabilise... the recent flip-flopping over kites and reintroducing keelboats isn't doing Olympic Sailing any favours.

 The 4.7 ticks a lot of boxes but I suspect selecting it would be seen as a narrow-minded retrograde step by a bunch of disconnected dinosaurs, at least by some sections of the community (see comments upthread)... The Byte or Aero a bit less so, though many would still see it as little different from the existing boats (perhaps that's the point, though?). 

 Interesting that there don't seem to be other strong candidates coming forward. Given the enormous number of different designs there have been through the years... 

 I have little confidence that the choice will be sensible...

 Cheers,

                W.

 

Thanks for that.  One of the reasons I suggested the Bloodaxe 5 is the Europe dinghy- both are conceptually parallel.  Take the 5, reduce the wings and the SA a bit.  Women in sports (in general) are more technically inclined- I wonder if they’d dig the challenge?

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:

 You could argue that NOT being an Olympic class gives the class association much great latitude to improve the boat.

There isn't really any argument about that: it's self-evident!

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I think I'm sticking my money on them going:

Phase 2:

Heavy weight men
Light weight women
Mens and womens board sports
Mixed offshore

Phase 3:

Finn
470
Windsurfer
something like a Diam 24 or Seascape 27

 

 

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On 2/13/2018 at 10:28 AM, dogwatch said:

Europe is a lovely responsive boat but large amounts were spent by richer countries on spar development before it was replaced by the Radial.

No reason why the Europe rules shouldn't get shaken up if the need is there. Actually there's a separate topic there...

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The small, light, pretty cheap UFO foiler with single female crew would put a fox in this chicken coop!  And they are a hoot to sail.

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9 hours ago, dacarls said:

The small, light, pretty cheap UFO foiler with single female crew would put a fox in this chicken coop!  And they are a hoot to sail.

hahaha you're dreaming if you think that this new boat will be a foiler

let alone the UFO

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So the best answer is to use the horrible heavy fiberglass Laser (modded maybe. of some kind) with a little sail? Thus performance is absent:  That idea is too awful to contemplate.  How about a modern boat, maybe one from THIS CENTURY?  

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Novices, kids, some old guy...learning to make a UFO go.  I think this would be a great dinghy for women. 

Numerous other UFO learners videos on this website.  A hoot.

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Very nice but not an International class and AFAIK not easily available internationally.

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18 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Very nice but not an International class and AFAIK not easily available internationally.

So when did the fact a class isn’t international ever stop ISAF/WS? 

Remember the Elliott?

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Yes I remember it. I very much enjoyed watching the match racing at Weymouth. Not however entirely the poster-child for a successful Olympic class.

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What would be a poster-child for a successful Olympic class?

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On 6/1/2018 at 10:12 PM, inebriated said:

hahaha you're dreaming if you think that this new boat will be a foiler

I hope you're right! I'd be really disappointed if it were a foiler.

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9 hours ago, bill4 said:

What would be a poster-child for a successful Olympic class?

For longevity as Olympic classes and international reach, Finn, Star, 470. I'd add Laser but for the shenanigans of the last few years.

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 Well, that was unexpected.  Mixed singlehander proposal is for a skiff.

 Musto pitching for the men's boat and suggesting the women should use the same hull with a smaller rig. 

They had a good run in 2000, so look pretty credible... I wonder how far along development is... Anyone come across any decent sized fleets of female skiff sailors? 

Cheers,

              W.

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The usual crazy decision making. The WS process is so messed up I don't think it can be saved. Proposals from every vested interest imaginable, all pushing their own barrow and none actually thinking about the good of the sport and the sailors. Some are a little better than others at hiding their agenda, but not many. 

The one proposal that made some sense, IMHO, was the one that had the Laser & Radial as the mixed single hander, the Finn as the Men's single hander, and new equipment for the Women's single hander aimed at average to light women (to me that's around 55kg, 5 foot 3). That seems like it's a win/win for all the current classes, covers males and females across a range of body weights, and keeps the Laser to make sure the universality boxes are ticked. 

Many of the Australian names racing Mustos seem to be Contender sailors, class swapping when a big event comes along. I don't think any of the single handed skiff classes have any sort of rig options that suit women, and that's reflected in the regatta results. 

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Not only that, none of them have big fleets. The concept was pushed hard, and most of the world wasn't interested.

Why the fuck does World Sailing (and most of the sailing media) keep on thinking that the sailors of the world are too stupid to know what to sail? Why do they keep on shoving boats that can't attract enough widespread support without Olympic status?  The thinking from WS and most of the sailing media seems to be "find a massively popular type of boat, try to kill it and replace it with something exotic that we'll tell other people to sail, even if we don't touch them ourselves". Yep, killing your top-selling product is a really good idea.

 

 

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Various new linked submissions here 

Kite board associations propose a format for their mixed event.

WS Board submit that the criteria for the mixed double-hander should closely match the 470, to limit equipment change. In same submission they also propose that mixed single hander be replaced with offshore mixed keelboat. Finally they also give a description of the relay format for the kite-surfing. 

Fun-board association propose that the criteria for windsurf selection be altered to describe a foiling windsurf.

Then the Musto Skiff Class Association submit that the criteria for  equipment for the mixed single-hander selection be change to describe a Musto Skiff type boat. 

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On 11/1/2018 at 9:28 AM, redstar said:

The usual crazy decision making.

Crazy or not, AFAIK these are still recommendations to the WS Board, not decisions. 

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How can it be a "Recommendation" to the board when the board are the ones that proposed it? ;(

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2 hours ago, Jethrow said:

How can it be a "Recommendation" to the board when the board are the ones that proposed it? ;(

 I think any member or even the board (or a whole host of people like NMA / class associations etc.) can make submissions to the equipment and events committees. These are debated and voted on before being passed to the council as recommendations.

Council then votes on the recommendations. 

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... and the proposal is turned down in favour of offshore keelboats.

 Ah well. Something had to give.

Cheers,

               

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Interesting... and a very Bethwaite looking sail... Please offer any Olympic related conspiracy theories below. Unless you're JulianB - no point ruining a good conspiracy with facts.

 

 

 

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The Olympics is a money making TV business for admistrators, coaches and a much smaller number of athletes, no more than a few hundred athletes in each of all but a small number of countries. Its a money cow for the IOC and the various sporting associations including World Sailing. Its success depends on TV revenue for two weeks every 4 years, its got nothing to do with sport development. Increasingly the sports on display are just TV shows and have little relevance to the sports played by ordinary people, and thats been the case to a great extent in sailing all my life and the latest decisions have made no difference to that. So who really cares?

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And yet it's one of the biggest topics on here and other sailing forums too. 

Not only are there the sailors on the Olympic circuit but all the youth and junior sailors who certainly care.

There are those who view the Olympics as the pinnacle of sailing, far above AC or any other world series circuit in terms of sporting merit and very much care about the equipment.

There are all those who have in the past been involved in an Olympic class, or still are, for whom they take an active interest in the spectacle and success of the equipment chosen, plus might know some of the potential Olympians personally. They care. 

So, yes, the Olympics may be a bit of cash cow, but I feel it still represents regular sailing. But yeah, there will be a section of dinghy sailors who are well past any ambition to compete at a top level, and probably weren't involved or good enough at an age when they might have. Their interest is in tinkering with boats and enjoying their time on the water with little interest outside of their niche... which is fine, they might not care which class goes to the Olympics, but there is certainly a big proportion of sailors who very much do care. 

 

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On 6/3/2018 at 3:42 AM, dogwatch said:

Very nice but not an International class and AFAIK not easily available internationally.

Not entirely true. See the last few seconds of this video for our delivery map. 

That said, I will do my level best to make sure that the UFO is never used in the Olympics. Not interested. Strongly disinterested.

However, it's worth noting for the sake of the thread that the nacra 17, RSX, Elliot 6, 49er and 49erFX, didn't satisfy the two conditions listed above when they were adopted either. 

DRC

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Mozzy, I dispute some of your arguments.

In classes which were big before olympic selection, and there are only a few left,  their worlds has always been a bigger, higher status regatta, because they have many more top sailors from all the top countries and fleets of hundreds not just the 20-25 with one boat from each country at the games. Asks a 470, Laser, Finn or Star sailor.

In most of the modern Games classes this is not the case as only the Olympic factory sailors sail these boats. Most of these classes were created for the games and would not exists without it. Increasingly they represent types which are not sailed anywhere else. Mixed gender two handed one design ocean racing keelboat is the prime example. 

Olympic feeder classes are popular with some kids and aspirational parents. Most of these kids give up the sport when they get to about 18, saturated with coaching and looking for a real life. The NAs like to have a big field to select their next elete from so do not care about the detritis leaving. Our NA has also killed of a lot of old popular junior classes by supporting only their few nominated classes. There are not really more kids sailing than before, just more coaches and more hype.

Sailing is an elete sport for wealthy people from wealthy countries. Thats probably why it got selected for the Olympics 130 years ago, the elete were creating the event and wanted something for themselves, their royalty and the ruling classes. Even though AS and IOC are pushing for smaller and simper boats than before its still an expensive sport when you add coaches, their boats, and international transport. Trying to push our sport into poor countries and communities is really a waste of their resources.

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