AmericanVagrant

Sold everything to sail the world...boat sunk on day 2

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3 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

As long as there are lights it is not rocket science either, coming from the North, my homeport (St Malo) is actually easier by night. You get 2 obvious transits to follow whereas by day there are enough marks to confuse a non local.

Now with GPS that's over but the really "advanced" skill is entering somewhere with tidal current doing dead reckoning in fog. When I was a kid we were doing it until we got lost once....

Shifting sand banks are different matter and IMHO there is no shame in waiting for good conditions (probably high water + daylight).

DRing in tide and fog is NOT advanced skill. It is blind luck. If the tide stream was known why wouldn't you turn the DR into an EP? 

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2 minutes ago, Gissie said:

The part that has always got me is the number of people, especially cruisers, that have radar yet have no idea how it works. We would regularly use it to pilot during the day, good conditions so you could work out what the glowing bits meant. Bit late to be searching for the on switch when the fog arrives.

very light fog that evening....very....2-3 NM vis

 

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I just googled St John Pass and went to maps in the search results. Turned on the Sat image and noted that the imagery was from 2018 so is fairly recent and it shows well the angle of approach from the SW to the center span of the bridge. You can also get a pretty good idea of the shoaling to the NW of the channel. Just click on the map and it pops up a Lat/Lon. A bit of forehand research using free and widely available tools such as this could have prevented this loss. 

image.thumb.png.ac75b393b53d8c209dee8b2581f74119.png

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1 minute ago, Gissie said:

The part that has always got me is the number of people, especially cruisers, that have radar yet have no idea how it works. We would regularly use it to pilot during the day, good conditions so you could work out what the glowing bits meant. Bit late to be searching for the on switch when the fog arrives.

That was at a time when radar were real power hogs and uncommon on small boat and we just had an echosounder + map + compass + pencil + stopwatch + RDF.

But yes, radar is really useful if you take the time to use it on a regular basis.

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I doubt that a $5000 boat comes with working radar. An Iphone with any of several free Nav apps could have done the job in this case. 

   I made my first sailing ventures using the time honored LOL/LOR method of navigating. When neither of those worked you had to rely on POR.

'Land on Left/Land on Right'

'Press on Regardless'

     Looks like these unfortunated newbies used POR to get into this mess.

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1 minute ago, Rasputin22 said:

I just googled St John Pass and went to maps in the search results. Turned on the Sat image and noted that the imagery was from 2018 so is fairly recent and it shows well the angle of approach from the SW to the center span of the bridge. You can also get a pretty good idea of the shoaling to the NW of the channel. Just click on the map and it pops up a Lat/Lon. A bit of forehand research using free and widely available tools such as this could have prevented this loss. 

image.thumb.png.ac75b393b53d8c209dee8b2581f74119.png

Yep Google earth is one of the best 'Aids' to navigation so far invented. I am teaching that it is an essential part of the mix when going into a place you havn't been before.

I am about to head out with two contestants to spin the Yachtmaster wheel of fortune. If anyone sees a 43 foot yacht fucking around with a leadline outside Raby bay at about 2100 tonight, come past and say hi.

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If they were able to 'call' Seatow then they could have used the same phone to ring up Hubbards Marina just inside the bridge and someone could have 'talked' them in through the pass by watching their running lights. I have resorted to such desperate measures before. 

    

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1 minute ago, Rasputin22 said:

If they were able to 'call' Seatow then they could have used the same phone to ring up Hubbards Marina just inside the bridge and someone could have 'talked' them in through the pass by watching their running lights. I have resorted to such desperate measures before. 

    

 

Yes, if they had an ounce of experience, or common sense, of which neither are in evidence, in this sad case.  

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Here's a bit better aerial photo of Johns Pass. IDK date, it's probably over a year old. Current at bridge can run as high as 2.5 kn, though 1.5 is a more common max at flood or ebb. 

mbabout_2.jpg

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4 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Yep Google earth is one of the best 'Aids' to navigation so far invented. I am teaching that it is an essential part of the mix when going into a place you havn't been before.

I am about to head out with two contestants to spin the Yachtmaster wheel of fortune. If anyone sees a 43 foot yacht fucking around with a leadline outside Raby bay at about 2100 tonight, come past and say hi.

I'd love to know where they actually went around...the natural channel appears to be south of the bridge opening and that inbound one would aim south of the opening until close to the bridge then parallel to the bridge then sharp turn into the opened bridge

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3 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

DRing in tide and fog is NOT advanced skill. It is blind luck. If the tide stream was known why wouldn't you turn the DR into an EP? 

Sorry you lost me with your acronyms, what is an EP?

I've learnt to navigate in French so don't know the exact technical words in English but the way we used to do it was drawing the current + boat speed vectors on the map to deduct a precise heading and go from channel buoy to channel buoy like this, as long as the distances are small enough you get away with it. Trouble is that it is very intense at the chart table as up to every 5 minutes you need to give a new heading to the helmsman and calculating it precisely involves extrapolating tidal current strengths and direction (between neap and spring + between the "tidal hours" as you are never bang on) plus knowing well enough your boat to know your drift.

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16 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

I've got a guy over in a Facebook you should chat with. Says coming into a strange port at night is "basic seamanship" that he teaches in his sailing classes, and he's done it hundreds of times all over the world, and anyone that has a rule about not entering strange ports at night is a giant pussy with no sailing skills.

One *should* have the skills to enter a strange harbor at not. And one should also have the wisdom not to use them except in dire, pressing need, or if a harbor is such a wide open well lit place you can slam dunk it.

I am not worthy.

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36 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Sorry you lost me with your acronyms, what is an EP?

I've learnt to navigate in French so don't know the exact technical words in English but the way we used to do it was drawing the current + boat speed vectors on the map to deduct a precise heading and go from channel buoy to channel buoy like this, as long as the distances are small enough you get away with it. Trouble is that it is very intense at the chart table as up to every 5 minutes you need to give a new heading to the helmsman and calculating it precisely involves extrapolating tidal current strengths and direction (between neap and spring + between the "tidal hours" as you are never bang on) plus knowing well enough your boat to know your drift.

Understand. What you were doing is called an Estimated position (EP) in English. Without the tidal vector or leeway added (ie just compass courses steered and distance run) is called a DR.

Between spring and neaps (or above spring and below neaps)  the tide speed can be calculated using a computation of rates table. But you are quite right this is not an exact science and that is why it is called an estimated position as apposed to a 'fix'. 

Image result for computation of tidal rates table

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3 minutes ago, toddster said:

Also interesting:The buoys are different and numbered differently on this chart than on the chart in post #92.

Looks to me like they are on the wrong side of the channel as well. (:

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28 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

 

JP.jpg

Closer view. This chart about 4 years old, but data probably about 10-12 years old. You can see the difference between chart and aerial photo.

27993167_10156252215366579_5574930467586

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Just now, LB 15 said:

Looks to me like they are on the wrong side of the channel as well. (:

I'm am guessing without a keel the boat could easily drifted from the grounding location....

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Just now, SailBlueH2O said:

I'm am guessing without a keel the boat could easily drifted from the grounding location....

It probably did.

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In 40 years of coastal voyaging which involved sometimes entering unfamiliar harbors at night and/or in rough weather I've come close to hitting the rocks or shoals but thanks to the grace of God wasn't wrecked.  No radar, GPS, just LORAN/RDF; but close attention to charts concerning lights and a bailout if it doesn't look right.  I've run aground on sand and hit unexpected submerged rocks at speed with minor damage to the keel and been able to  recover.  So sad that they were wrecked on day two; something to this story doesn't add  up; bad keel bolts maybe, poor navigation, definitely.

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6 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

I'm am guessing without a keel the boat could easily drifted from the grounding location....

I meant the buoys. It was a little' IALA buoyage region B' attempt at  humor...

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Here's a typical notation. This is Stump Pass, where the EC participants who take the outside route go in to reach CP1.  They don't even bother posting soundings or markers it shifts so frequently. Note at top is for New Pass in Sarasota, which has badly shoaled in now (4 years after chart was printed). Midnight Pass, which is about 8 mi south of New Pass and 15 mi north of Stump Pass, used to be able to handle 5' of draft at high tide (with local knowledge) when I was a kid. Now it's completely filled in...dry land. 

BTW, all these soundings in feet, not fathoms.

27747684_10156252236651579_2260749330389

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I still find it weird when looking navigation charts of US waters, where the green  lateral marks are to port entering harbour, that fucks with my head.  Thank god cardinals are uniform! 

Is there any other oddities between the US and the rest of the world when it comes to navigational marks? 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Understand. What you were doing is called an Estimated position (EP) in English. Without the tidal vector or leeway added (ie just compass courses steered and distance run) is called a DR.

Between spring and neaps (or above spring and below neaps)  the tide speed can be calculated using a computation of rates table. But you are quite right this is not an exact science and that is why it is called and estimated position as apposed to a 'fix'. 

Image result for computation of tidal rates table

Yes, that graphic would have been pretty handy. In France we have a "coefficient " (a number between 20 and 120) to characterise the strength of the tide so the interpolating is easier but no graphs on board. I should probably draw one with coefficients as input.

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18 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Understand. What you were doing is called an Estimated position (EP) in English. Without the tidal vector or leeway added (ie just compass courses steered and distance run) is called a DR.

Between spring and neaps (or above spring and below neaps)  the tide speed can be calculated using a computation of rates table. But you are quite right this is not an exact science and that is why it is called an estimated position as apposed to a 'fix'. 

Image result for computation of tidal rates table

For come unfathomable reason, this gives me a hard on.  I think I need to get a life. 

 

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I was responding to MrLeft about his remarks that Google Earth not working on Win 10 (works great for me on 10) and did a quick search for overlaying nautical charts to GE. I found a 5 minute YT video that was not particularly well done but gave me the links I needed to access the NOAA chart index and then pick out a particular chart which can easily be attached to GE. The results are excellent and I will put this trick in my nav toolkit and hopefully use it to good effect.

    Here is the pass in question with the chart opacity turned well down to show the sat/aerial imagery from GE. Pretty straightforward.

image.png.ce7019719ec7942897818d4a0255806a.png

 

Link to video

 

 

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2 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

I still find it weird when looking navigation charts of US waters, where the green  lateral marks are to port entering harbour, that fucks with my head.  Thank god cardinals are uniform! 

Is there any other oddities between the US and the rest of the world when it comes to navigational marks? 

 

 

 

In the ICW the markers (mostly day marks/pilings) are "Red to Right to Houston". IOW, the red markers are on the mainland side and green markers on the barrier islands side.  Sometimes gets confusing when you intersect a channel to/from an inlet, where its "Red Right Returning".

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2 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

I was responding to MrLeft about his remarks that Google Earth not working on Win 10 (works great for me on 10) and did a quick search for overlaying nautical charts to GE. I found a 5 minute YT video that was not particularly well done but gave me the links I needed to access the NOAA chart index and then pick out a particular chart which can easily be attached to GE. The results are excellent and I will put this trick in my nav toolkit and hopefully use it to good effect.

    Here is the pass in question with the chart opacity turned well down to show the sat/aerial imagery from GE. Pretty straightforward.

image.png.ce7019719ec7942897818d4a0255806a.png

 

Link to video

 

 

Straightforward except the sandbar to north has encroached into channel, and the deepest water is south of markers. 

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There is a good reason they are called Passes and not Channels ....Southwest Pass at the mouth of Tampa bay is fairly wide and deep....however all the way south on the coast the passes are shifting all the time....New Pass,Sarasota, is call new....because it never existed before a hurricane blew a hole in the barrier island

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

First time I went into Bermagui was at night. RADAR certainly helped and a good spotlight. Wide Bay bar seems to terrify most people as well at night but if there is no big swell it is a piece of piss. But most of the Sydney sailors are so terrified of Moreton Bay they pound around the outside and miss one of the counties best waterways. A air draft of over 24 meters can be a show stopper.

And a draft of over 3 meters as well. 

It's too bad we're too tall for that route. We got back to GGCM up the Coomera OK, but those wires further up suck. We'd have loved to cut through that way, sailing all the way around is a bit if a nuisance.

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5a80cc980f542_columbia28.PNG.365e36a728cae401079d70231934342c.PNG

Hmmm, draft of 1.3mtrs, so 4ft, pretty shallow draft. 

Are they a bolt on keel, at the line in the drawing? Seems strange they/anybody didn't see any issues working on it for x months if it can fall off running into sand.    

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Just now, shaggybaxter said:

5a80cc980f542_columbia28.PNG.365e36a728cae401079d70231934342c.PNG

Hmmm, draft of 1.3mtrs, so 4ft, pretty shallow draft. 

Are they a bolt on keel, at the line in the drawing? Seems strange they/anybody didn't see any issues working on it for x months if it can fall off running into sand.    

sand is hard as a mofo....if being dropped by the swell

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Yep Google earth is one of the best 'Aids' to navigation so far invented. I am teaching that it is an essential part of the mix when going into a place you havn't been before.

I am about to head out with two contestants to spin the Yachtmaster wheel of fortune. If anyone sees a 43 foot yacht fucking around with a leadline outside Raby bay at about 2100 tonight, come past and say hi.

Google Earth is very popular with the cruisers in places like Fiji, where you can overlay images on OpenCPN to try to get some sense of what's actually happening.

At one point in Fiji my chart plotter showed me well over the green "exposed at high tide" reef while I still had 35' under the keel and could see the reef well off to starboard.

The other thing we do in areas with shitty charts and sticks in the reef for Navaids is to share GPS tracks where one successfully picked through the passes.

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It appears from the link that Proa found about the Columbia 28 that the lead ballast is bolted through the bottom of the FG sump using LAG BOLTS! These are tapped into holes drilled into the lead casting and then the lags are self tapped into the lead using kerosine as cutting fluid. Apparently the lags have normal machine threads on the top portion and after the lags are firmly torqued into the lead then nuts are tightened down to complete the process. Sounds primative but but would be fairly easy as a DIY yard project provided one was aware of the technique and the need to do so. 

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2 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

5a80cc980f542_columbia28.PNG.365e36a728cae401079d70231934342c.PNG

Hmmm, draft of 1.3mtrs, so 4ft, pretty shallow draft. 

Are they a bolt on keel, at the line in the drawing? Seems strange they/anybody didn't see any issues working on it for x months if it can fall off running into sand.    

Yes, lead keel bolted on at the line. There were 2 or 3 different keels. Post up thread indicates the keel bolts are just galvanized lag screws, which is pretty sketchy. 

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:
1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

As long as there are lights it is not rocket science either, coming from the North, my homeport (St Malo) is actually easier by night. You get 2 obvious transits to follow whereas by day there are enough marks to confuse a non local.

Now with GPS that's over but the really "advanced" skill is entering somewhere with tidal current doing dead reckoning in fog. When I was a kid we were doing it until we got lost once....

Shifting sand banks are different matter and IMHO there is no shame in waiting for good conditions (probably high water + daylight).

The part that has always got me is the number of people, especially cruisers, that have radar yet have no idea how it works. We would regularly use it to pilot during the day, good conditions so you could work out what the glowing bits meant. Bit late to be searching for the on switch when the fog arrives.

Cruising in the tropics, there's not much call for radar if you're only moving when it's light out and the weather is nice. We have that luxury, and a lot of smaller boats don't have radar.

We use it during the day time to mark and range rain in the distance, stuff like that. But in New England we hit fog quite frequently, and I'm a bit of a technophile so I was pretty comfortable with it long before we went cruising. That snippet of chart I posted above, we came into that once so fogged in at night that we could smell when we were off the island, not see it. The first thing we saw after heading into the fog off Pt Judith was that R2 bell and the breakwater was the first land we saw.

 

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6 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

It appears from the link that Proa found about the Columbia 28 that the lead ballast is bolted through the bottom of the FG sump using LAG BOLTS! These are tapped into holes drilled into the lead casting and then the lags are self tapped into the lead using kerosine as cutting fluid. Apparently the lags have normal machine threads on the top portion and after the lags are firmly torqued into the lead then nuts are tightened down to complete the process. Sounds primative but but would be fairly easy as a DIY yard project provided one was aware of the technique and the need to do so. 

It sounds like this is what they used. Looks very sketchy.

 

image.jpeg

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Boston Harbor is well charted I believe.  When I bought my boat and was on my first sail delivering it Boston/MA from Providence/RI, we ended up arriving at 1am, and had to navigate through the narrows, up the south channel into the inner harbor.  I/We were pretty nervous.  We took it slow, with my dad on the bow with the spot light, and my eyes on the chart plotter and keeping a look out around us for any approaching boats.   We made it through safely even though I had NEVER been in Boston Harbor before but followed the channel buoys..  The current was a bit tricky in the narrows since we were against it.  Luckily it only runs around 3kts on average.  I think if the weather was awful we would have by-passed the south entrance and just went up to the north entrance where all the ships come in since its well lit, wide open, and plenty of water.  I did feel accomplished after it all being on a new unfamiliar boat, in a new unfamiliar harbor in the pitch black conditions.

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9 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

sand is hard as a mofo....if being dropped by the swell

Pile-driving isn't just for porno.

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8 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

Ime am thicking no.

I'm thinking yes,  and they ignored every word of advice given to them. 

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2 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Boston Harbor is well charted I believe.  When I bought my boat and was on my first sail delivering it Boston/MA from Providence/RI, we ended up arriving at 1am, and had to navigate through the narrows, up the south channel into the inner harbor.  I/We were pretty nervous.  We took it slow, with my dad on the bow with the spot light, and my eyes on the chart plotter and keeping a look out around us for any approaching boats.   We made it through safely even though I had NEVER been in Boston Harbor before burt followed the channel buoys..  The current was a bit tricky in the narrows since we were against it.  Luckily it only runs around 3kts on average.  I think if the weather was awful we would have by -passed the south entrance and just went up to the north entrance where all the ships come in since its well lit, wide open, and plenty of water.  I did feel accomplished after it all being on a new unfamiliar boat, in a new unfamiliar harbor in the pitch black conditions.

image.thumb.png.74d9811fde4ecb0727665aea9c665090.png

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1 minute ago, B.J. Porter said:

Cruising in the tropics, there's not much call for radar if you're only moving when it's light out and the weather is nice. We have that luxury, and a lot of smaller boats don't have radar.

We use it during the day time to mark and range rain in the distance, stuff like that. But in New England we hit fog quite frequently, and I'm a bit of a technophile so I was pretty comfortable with it long before we went cruising. That snippet of chart I posted above, we came into that once so fogged in at night that we could smell when we were off the island, not see it. The first thing we saw after heading into the fog off Pt Judith was that R2 bell and the breakwater was the first land we saw.

 

I went into the Salt Pond one morning in fog so thick visibility was under 30'. Radar was useless as there were so many boats jammed in there. Bumped engine into gear, went forward half a boat length, looked carefully, forward another 1/2 boat length, repeat. Took a long time, we were practically creeping  on hands and knees.

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That method wouldn't be too bad for future replacement if the lags were bronze or 304 SS. I bet the galvinized lags were down to pencil diameter at the lead/fg seam!  I did a lot of single handed camp cruising in a O'Day Mariner (Rhodes 19 with a keel) in that area ages ago and the keel was pretty loose and would wiggle around a LOT! I guess the only reason I never broke it off was that the wooden floor timbers through which it was bolted were so rotten that they absorbed the working of the keel bolts. I didn't know how ahead of the times I was having a 'swing keel' sailboat, only thing was it swung the wrong way...

    I hit the Pass-A-Grill bridge with the mast and got cussed out good by the bridgekeeper. No harm no foul I answered after the little sloop did a wheelie and a 180 snap turn and sail out the way we came in. Then the keeper pointed out that I had hit one of the pivoting lights that hung down to mark the clearance under the span and it was cocked up 45 degrees and wouldn't return to its vertical position. I had a friend on board (actually he was at the helm) who had just started working as a news cameraman in Tampa and later that same week he was assigned to shoot a story about that very bridge being closed for maintenance and repairs. He kept his hat pulled low over his face or hidden behind the big BetaCam viewfinder during the interview with the bridgekeeper and when the reporter asked just what needed repairs on the bridge the keeper started cussing about his screwed up light still cocked over on its side and went into great detail about the jerks who had hit it just days earlier! He opened the window and insisted that my buddy get a good shot of the light fixture in question and that is when he recognized my friend...

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5 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

27797672_10157196196429251_4973670171158

Yup.   I edited your photo.

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2 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Yes There are many places and times were it is best not to but a blanket 'I never enter a new port at night' attitude is not unlike the 'I always put a reef in before dark'  approach. Many people confuse conservatism with safety and seamanship. As for the instructor's comments,  he is somewhat correct at HIS level, an instructor should be able to enter any well charted port at night, but his attitude smacks of a newly crowned instructor. I have always believed there should be a cooling off period for new instructors were they can't teach anyone until the first flush of success has passed.

Perhaps better stated as "We don't generally go into a new harbor at night without a compelling reason, unless it looks like a wicked easy approach."

Of course, it is simpler to state "We don't enter new harbors at night", then evaluate exceptions on a case by case basis. With that rule, you work harder to make sure your planned arrival is in daylight.

The alleged instructor definitely needs a cooling off period.

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44 minutes ago, toddster said:

Also interesting:The buoys are different and numbered differently on this chart than on the chart in post #92.

Well crap. I didn’t twig that it’s a completely different place with similar shape.  Misdirection!

The charts for my part of the Columbia River show stuff that’s almost 90 years out of date.  They keep the marked channel clear for commercial shipping, but for anything outside of that, the charts are pretty sketchy.   I heard a cruise ship captain talking with a tugboat captain the other day: “How’d you get through there?” A channel that was dredged in the 1950s but still isn’t on the chart.  

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8 minutes ago, RKoch said:
14 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Cruising in the tropics, there's not much call for radar if you're only moving when it's light out and the weather is nice. We have that luxury, and a lot of smaller boats don't have radar.

We use it during the day time to mark and range rain in the distance, stuff like that. But in New England we hit fog quite frequently, and I'm a bit of a technophile so I was pretty comfortable with it long before we went cruising. That snippet of chart I posted above, we came into that once so fogged in at night that we could smell when we were off the island, not see it. The first thing we saw after heading into the fog off Pt Judith was that R2 bell and the breakwater was the first land we saw.

 

I went into the Salt Pond one morning in fog so thick visibility was under 30'. Radar was useless as there were so many boats jammed in there. Bumped engine into gear, went forward half a boat length, looked carefully, forward another 1/2 boat length, repeat. Took a long time, we were practically creeping  on hands and knees.

Yeah, pretty close to the conditions we entered in. Barely see past the bow. But fortunately it was at night so nobody was moving in the channel! That sort of fog at Idiot Hour on Sat AM with the Searays blasting in at full throttle would have been a bit more lively.

What was weird that night though was that we could see the end of the jetty at the entrance an NO land, but just inside the harbor the fog lifted up so anchoring was pretty easy.

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3 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Yup.   I edited your photo.

I thought you were going the other way?

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2 minutes ago, the_abandoned_brane said:

I like these people.  Naive, yes. BUT... as someone pointed out, their navigation skills sucked. I hope for them. I'm not at all a hater. 

I don't hate them. I just wish they'd spend a year or so moving up and down the coast so they have a bit more in the way of survival skills and common sense.

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6 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I don't hate them. I just wish they'd spend a year or so moving up and down the coast so they have a bit more in the way of survival skills and common sense.

IMO, they simply jumped in the deep end without knowing how to swim. A better (more prudent) plan would have been to buy a Catalina 22 for say $2500, done some weekend and coastal cruising while learning to sail, navigate, and maintain a boat. With a few years of that under their belt they then could decide to be permanent live aboard cruisers. Their judgement (if they had any) was distorted by watching too many La Vag videos and thinking it was going to be easy and inexpensive.

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2 minutes ago, RKoch said:

IMO, they simply jumped in the deep end without knowing how to swim. A better (more prudent) plan would have been to buy a Catalina 22 for say $2500, done some weekend and coastal cruising while learning to sail, navigate, and maintain a boat. With a few years of that under their belt they then could decide to be permanent live aboard cruisers. Their judgement (if they had any) was distorted by watching too many La Vag videos and thinking it was going to be easy and inexpensive.

That is what that $1000 Rhodes O'Day Mariner did for me and when I sailed through those same West Coast Florida waters on a 42' trimaran on my way to the Caribbean I'm sure that the experience I gained on my modest cruiser saved me from grief.  

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What's been completely missing in the discussion is that they left Tarpon Springs sometime Tuesday, and arrived at Johns Pass at 845pm Wednesday night. That distance is only 30-35 miles. They averaged about 1 knot. They should learn to sail before undertaking any more adventures.

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40 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I thought you were going the other way?

Whups.  Yup.  You are right.  REVERSE!  :D

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2 hours ago, Gissie said:

Never liked names like Skeleton Bay, usually a reference to ribs of ships that fucked up.

When I was a kid, the ribs of big sailing ships were still prominent on the beaches of Cape Sable Island.

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50 minutes ago, RKoch said:

IMO, they simply jumped in the deep end without knowing how to swim. A better (more prudent) plan would have been to buy a Catalina 22 for say $2500, done some weekend and coastal cruising while learning to sail, navigate, and maintain a boat. With a few years of that under their belt they then could decide to be permanent live aboard cruisers. Their judgement (if they had any) was distorted by watching too many La Vag videos and thinking it was going to be easy and inexpensive.

 

45 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

That is what that $1000 Rhodes O'Day Mariner did for me and when I sailed through those same West Coast Florida waters on a 42' trimaran on my way to the Caribbean I'm sure that the experience I gained on my modest cruiser saved me from grief.  

This kind of step-wise, go-slow mentality is now passe, in the age of Vloggers and Facebook sailing experts.

Instead it's Do It NOW, with with biggest boat you can afford. You can learn how to sail along the way, so long as the bikinis are kept small enough to drive the Patreons.

It seems almost every day I see some nitwit on a Facebook sailing page urging people to "buy the biggest boat you can afford" and have a go at it.

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Bored people over on CF have sussed out that the boat is actually Columbia 31.  Shoal draft, centerboard.  No keel bolts.

27609222_1518205040.7265_funddescription

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42 minutes ago, RKoch said:

What's been completely missing in the discussion is that they left Tarpon Springs sometime Tuesday, and arrived at Johns Pass at 845pm Wednesday night. That distance is only 30-35 miles. They averaged about 1 knot. They should learn to sail before undertaking any more adventures.

That had occurred to me as well.

Part of me also wonders abut their engine, and if they know how to use it. By my charts, the could have run the whole way in an afternoon down the intracoastal...given their skill level, that may have been enough challenge for a day.

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3 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

 

This kind of step-wise, go-slow mentality is now passe, in the age of Vloggers and Facebook sailing experts.

Instead it's Do It NOW, with with biggest boat you can afford. You can learn how to sail along the way, so long as the bikinis are kept small enough to drive the Patreons.

It seems almost every day I see some nitwit on a Facebook sailing page urging people to "buy the biggest boat you can afford" and have a go at it.

They did buy the biggest boat they could afford. Unfortunately, keel bolts weren't included in the budget. 

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another pair of starry eyed dreamers. more and more of them every day spend to much time watching channels like la vagabonde and think "hey I can do that" and you end up with shitshows like this

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2 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

That had occurred to me as well.

Part of me also wonders abut their engine, and if they know how to use it. By my charts, the could have run the whole way in an afternoon down the intracoastal...given their skill level, that may have been enough challenge for a day.

Clearwater was about halfway. It has a pass that's well marked and doable in almost all conditions. The municipal marina is reasonably priced, and there's several spots with good anchor holding. Beats me why they didn't stick to manageable distances they could handle in daylight hours until they got more experience.

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12 minutes ago, toddster said:

Bored people over on CF have sussed out that the boat is actually Columbia 31.  Shoal draft, centerboard.  No keel bolts.

27609222_1518205040.7265_funddescription

CF is mostly dumb-asses. 

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3 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Clearwater was about halfway. It has a pass that's well marked and doable in almost all conditions. The municipal marina is reasonably priced, and there's several spots with good anchor holding. Beats me why they didn't stick to manageable distances they could handle in daylight hours until they got more experience.

a complete and utter lack of this. mixed the the ignorance, arrogance and downright laziness to not bother seeking some instruction. 

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2 minutes ago, RKoch said:
10 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

That had occurred to me as well.

Part of me also wonders abut their engine, and if they know how to use it. By my charts, the could have run the whole way in an afternoon down the intracoastal...given their skill level, that may have been enough challenge for a day.

Clearwater was about halfway. It has a pass that's well marked and doable in almost all conditions. The municipal marina is reasonably priced, and there's several spots with good anchor holding. Beats me why they didn't stick to manageable distances they could handle in daylight hours until they got more experience.

It comes back to experience.

When I am moving on the coast, I plot where I want to go.  Then, I also plot several "dump off" places I can go - places I can pull into if things turn crappy, something breaks badly, or we just get shit-sick of slogging. That way I always have some rough idea of my options, how far they are away, and what I can do if things go pear-shaped. Admittedly, I'm e-plotting this stuff, so sticking three or four forks in my main route that end someplace up isn't that much work.

If you have one plot and one plan and no alternatives explored, every trip ends the same place. Whether or not it makes sense to push on.

I doubt these guys had any idea that they should familiarize themselves with alternative safe stopping places between point A and B in their plan.

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2 minutes ago, RKoch said:

CF is mostly dumb-asses. 

eh I dunno about that, there are a lot of very knowledgable people there, but there are also some heavy duty dumb shits too. 

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2 minutes ago, RKoch said:

CF is mostly dumb-asses. 

Yes and know. I've met some people there that I've also met out cruising, so there are some real cruisers that hang out there.

But there's a lot of bullshit there too.

I cross posted my AirX/LiFePO4 question there when I started the thread here. Not a single reply over there.

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24 minutes ago, toddster said:

Bored people over on CF have sussed out that the boat is actually Columbia 31.  Shoal draft, centerboard.  No keel bolts.

27609222_1518205040.7265_funddescription

From what I can tell, they are asserting that it's a 31 based on this photo - which makes it appear as though the boat is beached too close to shore for a 4'4" draft. Could be a shelf right there. Or could have brought it in at a higher tide and the wave action settled the keel in a bit. Or maybe they charged in at ramming speed. Or maybe...?

Personally I don't think assumptions based on this photo alone are sufficient to make the assertion.

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2 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

It appears from the link that Proa found about the Columbia 28...

Wasn't me.  Maybe you are thinking of this one?http://www.columbia-yachts.com/c-28info.html

http://www.columbia-yachts.com/c-28info.html

And:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/Sunken-dreams-Everything-they-own-is-at-the-bottom-of-John-s-Pass_165308644

Quote

So they started saving their money. He Ubered. They spent two years planning, and then finally did it. They sold everything they owned, even his sport-utility vehicle. In April they bought a 1969 Columbia sailboat in Alabama for $5,000, then spent that much fixing the 49-year-old boat.

They named it the Lagniappe (pronounced lanny-yap), Creole for bonus. "Like the 13th donut in a dozen," Broadwell said. "It’s something extra for you."

 

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2 minutes ago, AmericanVagrant said:

From what I can tell, they are asserting that it's a 31 based on this photo - which makes it appear as though the boat is beached too close to shore for a 4'4" draft. Could be a shelf right there. Or could have brought it in at a higher tide and the wave action settled the keel in a bit. Or maybe they charged in at ramming speed. Or maybe...?

Personally I don't think assumptions based on this photo alone are sufficient to make the assertion.

unless there's a pretty steep shelf right there then the boat was certainly a shoal draft/CB which does kind of kill the corroded keel bolts explanation so what did these idiots do to sink that boat? if they hit bottom with the board down I'd be willing to but that the cable would snap before the hull failed. 

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5 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

It comes back to experience.

When I am moving on the coast, I plot where I want to go.  Then, I also plot several "dump off" places I can go - places I can pull into if things turn crappy, something breaks badly, or we just get shit-sick of slogging. That way I always have some rough idea of my options, how far they are away, and what I can do if things go pear-shaped. Admittedly, I'm e-plotting this stuff, so sticking three or four forks in my main route that end someplace up isn't that much work.

If you have one plot and one plan and no alternatives explored, every trip ends the same place. Whether or not it makes sense to push on.

I doubt these guys had any idea that they should familiarize themselves with alternative safe stopping places between point A and B in their plan.

I do that on an unfamiliar route. I've lived/sailed this coast for over 50 years, so all that info is stored in the back of my head... Which passes are easy, which can be done at night, which are safe in a blow, etc. 

back in '88 I was solo delivering a 3/4-tonner back from KWRW to St Pete (no auto pilot). I was hoping to make Venice Inlet before an approaching nasty front arrived (that's about 2/3 the way). Front caught me still 10 miles south. I was only making about 1 + knots into it under power. A quick bit of mental math, and I determined there was no way to make the Inlet before dark, and by that time the seas and wind would build to make the inlet risky. Easy decision to run back south to Boca Grande Pass (easy in all conditions) and run up to the NW corner of Charlotte Harbor and drop a couple hooks in 10' of protected water. Just a little ground swell wrapped around the corner. Blew 50+, gusting over 60. Very glad I wasn't trying to run a narrow breaking inlet at night in those conditions.

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Well also look at the capsize photo- the “barn door” rudder and absence of a large keel stub.  I’d look at the interior photos for clues but I can’t be assed to go to that much trouble on my phone.

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1 minute ago, frozenhawaiian said:

unless there's a pretty steep shelf right there then the boat was certainly a shoal draft/CB which does kind of kill the corroded keel bolts explanation so what did these idiots do to sink that boat? if they hit bottom with the board down I'd be willing to but that the cable would snap before the hull failed. 

Maybe...looking at the photo, the apparent shallow depth may just be an optical illusion. Very clear water and sun directly overhead casting the shadow straight down. I just feel like it would be extremely odd that they could own a 31 and not know it. Not to mention this: http://www.columbia-yachts.com/c-28info.html (which given the name is almost certainly the same vessel).

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8 minutes ago, AmericanVagrant said:

From what I can tell, they are asserting that it's a 31 based on this photo - which makes it appear as though the boat is beached too close to shore for a 4'4" draft. Could be a shelf right there. Or could have brought it in at a higher tide and the wave action settled the keel in a bit. Or maybe they charged in at ramming speed. Or maybe...?

Personally I don't think assumptions based on this photo alone are sufficient to make the assertion.

There are the occasional places that are deep right up to a beach. The Col 28 (which is what the article said the boat was, that info probably directly from the owners) only draws about 4'. The idiots at CF probably need to find another conspiracy theory to chase. 

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I dunno.  Shape of the stern, such as can be seen, looks more like the 28 to me.

There have actually been numerous examples admired on here in which the owners didn’t know what boat they had.  

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it really speaks to their ineptitude if they weren't even sure of what model boat they owned...

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12 minutes ago, toddster said:

Well also look at the capsize photo- the “barn door” rudder and absence of a large keel stub.  I’d look at the interior photos for clues but I can’t be assed to go to that much trouble on my phone.

Picture shows a remaining keel stub (sump).

image.jpeg

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Just now, frozenhawaiian said:

it really speaks to their ineptitude if they weren't even sure of what model boat they owned...

No. It's the idiots at CF that don't know what they're talking about.  the boat is a 28.

 

image.jpeg

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