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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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It's the rig of a Wyliecat 30, so it's either the first Wyliecat or another ~30 footer re-rigged (somebody did that on a boat up here)

 

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Jeeeeeez, I coulda swore that was a MEXICAN flag, and it looks like Zuniga in the background so I'll venture a guess that it's a daysailer that one of the Mex PAC 52 class boats brought up from Acapulco.

Caveat; it does appear to say www.penguin.xx on the quarter.

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7 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

It’s flying an Italian naval ensign...... so more likely to be a Luca Brenta experiment.....

EBDE74E8-09A0-470F-8705-18AD11C696C3.png

Hard to tell, but certainly very possible.

What's it say on the quarter is the big Q

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7 minutes ago, Parma said:

Hard to tell, but certainly very possible.

What's it say on the quarter is the big Q

Sorry, it is the Italian civil ensign (without crown).....

5725FB5A-B84F-4A07-990D-D8F2FE6B1399.png

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Nonsuch are not as slick, and they mostly have a really aluminum masts (can't see in this picture what this one has).

 

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Easy...test platform for a UFO rig. The Clarks do everything differently. They scale down instead of up.

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54 minutes ago, DiasDePlaya said:

Marblehead 22 Daysailer?

My first thought too (but larger).   However, pay attention to the post before you.  This thread is done.

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at first I thought it was the Ding-i from Danel, but it indeed looks like the Luca di rosa one

 

stacks-image-2b4d1cb-1200x696.jpg

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Flipper did it!

It is my latest design, more info at the link below

www.pinguin.it

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I've been involved with two cat rig builds...a 22' and a 32'....never happy with the way the went upwind and how both when heeling upwind  heeled forward and leeward....of course I have heard other say they go upwind well....any first handle experience out there are the rig has always appealed to me ...especially with 70 fast approaching

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2 hours ago, PINGUIN said:

Flipper did it!

It is my latest design, more info at the link below

www.pinguin.it

I like it! I’m always trying to get my NA buddy to agree to a cat rig with wishbone on a 20’ keelboat. I’ll show him this! It’s a winner!!

but what’s with the aft cabin entrance? 

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55 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Nicely done. What's with the artsy work on the transom? Banksy gone crazy or just a malfunction in the paintshop?

It is brushed carbon finish, like you find on some Surf or race SUP

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53 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I like it! I’m always trying to get my NA buddy to agree to a cat rig with wishbone on a 20’ keelboat. I’ll show him this! It’s a winner!!

but what’s with the aft cabin entrance? 

Transom open for bathing, you can access aft compartment from the hatch you see

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13 hours ago, the_abandoned_brane said:

It's the the rig of a nonsuch thingy. Wife one rig I think? Slow I bet. 

doesn't look that slow to me:

 

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The daycat 32 is unusual in that the mast is much further aft than most other cat boats and carries a spinnaker set of the retractable .bowsprit/prod.

Even Though the mast is carbon, I would love to know how heavy it is? That sort of weight so far forward in a cat rigged boat can’t help with pitching especially when heeled.

Here,is a more extreme Australian cat boat: http://www.radford-yacht.com/dsn070/dsn070.html

 

 

 

5A627EC0-0534-4B38-BC5A-855ABC2EDFE1.jpeg

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i think the square top mains we are developing nowadays may assist this concept in moving forward... you can get enough sail area to move in lighter air without the mast being so far forward or so tall as you can see in the Pinguin in contrast to the Radford boat

never did understand the wishbone though... why, whenever someone does a modern cat do they go to a wishbone? looks like a lot of extra goo compared to a conventional boom...

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I never understood how the reef pennants were led from reef clews to the deck.  Inside the wishbone(s)?  Then where?

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Rigging details regarding reefing lines (Nonsuch example)

5a84818e104ba_NonsuchRigging.PNG.76611f0c5b393cd4aae72a628ea683d0.PNG

Why Wishbone? As the front end is higher than the clew it acts as an automatic downhaul. Foot tension applied via the "choker" which changes the distance of mast to front end of wishbone. In the end it will be lighter (but higher than a conventional boom) and the stress induced by a (rigid) boom vang will be eliminated.

If you want to have the worst of both try the Wobegon Daze solution... (freestanding and rotating masts)

5a8481073e475_WobegonDaze-03.jpg.c117833414e69da8ff9a58d2122ae724.jpg

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3 hours ago, Sidecar said:

The daycat 32 is unusual in that the mast is much further aft than most other cat boats and carries a spinnaker set of the retractable .bowsprit/prod.

The Gary Mull designed Freedom boats (like the Freedom 25, Freedom 28, Freedom 36) were also like that.  They didn't have retractable bowsprits, but the 25 had that funny pulpit mounted spin pole.  The Freedom 28 and 36 had a tiny optional fractional non-overlapping jib.  How well did those point in practice?  

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17 minutes ago, Alex W said:

The Gary Mull designed Freedom boats (like the Freedom 25, Freedom 28, Freedom 36) were also like that.  They didn't have retractable bowsprits, but the 25 had that funny pulpit mounted spin pole.  The Freedom 28 and 36 had a tiny optional fractional non-overlapping jib.  How well did those point in practice?  

not to nitpick but Hoyt designed the 25 and the 21 (and the 40 CK and 44 CK and one of the 32's). Mull designed the 28, 30, 36, 38, and 45. I don't believe the jib was optional on any of the Mull designs - they all used a 100% Bierig spar jib. the F21 and F25 both had optional staysails that made a big difference upwind. 

As a current owner of a Mull-designed 45 "cat sloop" and former owner of a cat ketch 40, I can tell you the 45 points the way you'd expect an unstayed rig with a small jib to point - usually around 45 degrees twa. that's about 10 degrees better than the cat ketch ;)

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5 hours ago, PINGUIN said:

It is brushed carbon finish, like you find on some Surf or race SUP

So you fair it, sanding through the filler in places, then clear coat it. Is that cool these days? I could finish the interior of my boat in half a day if it is.

 

Except it looks like the boom and rear door are still to be painted, and it was rushed out the door to go sailing. Which has merit in itself.

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50 minutes ago, Lucky Dog said:

Hey it has 2 of the dreaded offset companways ☺️    Very cool would like to see interior plan

There probably is a lifting keel trunk between them....

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3 hours ago, Knut Grotzki said:

Why Wishbone? As the front end is higher than the clew it acts as an automatic downhaul. Foot tension applied via the "choker" which changes the distance of mast to front end of wishbone. In the end it will be lighter (but higher than a conventional boom) and the stress induced by a (rigid) boom vang will be eliminated.

hmmm... might act as a vang, but not a downhaul other than indirectly. the fact that even on a sailing website we need a diagram to show how to reef and an extra explanation of how to do what an outhaul does brings me back to my original question. I wonder why modern cats have wishbone booms... I'm always on the lookout for things which are caught in paradigms that are no longer valid...

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23 minutes ago, overdraft said:

hmmm... might act as a vang, but not a downhaul other than indirectly. the fact that even on a sailing website we need a diagram to show how to reef and an extra explanation of how to do what an outhaul does brings me back to my original question. I wonder why modern cats have wishbone booms... I'm always on the lookout for things which are caught in paradigms that are no longer valid...

I don't know why modern cats have wishbone rigs, but the Nonsuch 30, that Mom had 30 years ago would go to weather, as fast as or faster than most modern conventionals sloops, and just as close winded,  in the trades down in the VI's.  Granted, with  the plumb bow and stern, the waterline was longer than most conventional 30 footers.  Next time I run into Mark Ellis at the pub at cocktail hour, I will ask him and report back, if I remember to.

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3 minutes ago, the_abandoned_brane said:

I'm used to seeing the nonsuch, which are lumbering beasts trying to get somewhere, anywhere. 

That's not a Nonsuch in the video there.  And if you had ever sailed one, you would not call them "lumbering beasts".  Very modern underbody, nothing like the full keel Cats most people think of.  Nonsuch masts are much further forward than that, like a true Catboat, that is some variant.

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11 minutes ago, the_abandoned_brane said:

I'm used to seeing the nonsuch, which are lumbering beasts trying to get somewhere, anywhere. 

absolutely, but if you watch a presto 30 or a wyliecat (or a Freedom 40 ;) ) they don't lumber like a nonsuch, at least in the light stuff. Get the nonsuch's out in some breeze and they move along quite nicely tyvm.

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41 minutes ago, overdraft said:

hmmm... might act as a vang, but not a downhaul other than indirectly. the fact that even on a sailing website we need a diagram to show how to reef and an extra explanation of how to do what an outhaul does brings me back to my original question. I wonder why modern cats have wishbone booms... I'm always on the lookout for things which are caught in paradigms that are no longer valid...

From the Wylie site, make of it what you will:

Why do Wyliecats have wishbone booms?
The wishbone boom works much better than a conventional boom with the Wyliecat's ultra-flexible carbon fiber mast to keep the sail in perfect trim, all the time, allowing better sail control and ease of handling in the process.

The wishbone tensions the sail at an angle, pulling the sail both back and down. This trims the sail more efficiently than the forces applied to a sail with a conventional boom, with the outhaul and vang. The wishbone is also more effective at bending the carbon mast. The only way in which a conventional mast could be similarly bent is with the use of running backstays, which are usually only seen on pure racing boats such as the America's Cup class yachts. The disadvantages of conventional running backstays are numerous. They must be constantly trimmed by an experienced sailor, and if adjusted incorrectly, could cause catastrophic mast failure.

The wishbone boom has one other advantage - it provides an attachment point for the Wyliecat's built-in sail furling solution. Lazyjack lines on the booms neatly catch the sail when it is dropped, greatly reducing the work necessary to put the boat away. Dropping the sail is a one-person job with a Wyliecat!

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so the last time an AC boat had runners was in 2007... but OK. unusually bendy mast and inverted lazyjacks... I'm not totally compelled by that explanation, but it's at least something! Thanks Ryley!

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Overdraft, I don't think the website's been updated since 2006.

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9 minutes ago, DRIFTW00D said:

img-8596_orig.jpg

I really like it...love the pole slot forward and really curious about the companionway open trunk explanation

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2 hours ago, ryley said:

Overdraft, I don't think the website's been updated since 2006.

and yet technology has marched on, which was the basis of the question... is wishbone still better 10 years later? or are we just thinking it is because it was back when masts were those tapered alloy things with pin head sails... and now that we're better at carbon fiber masts and have square top mains could there be a better solution? 

SBH, the pole slot is darn cool... style points over say the Cork 1720 which uses the slot to avoid water getting in through the pole, but has it completely covered. I don't know why more boats with prods don't do this rather than stressing over the gasket because the pole hole leads right inside the boat!

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44 minutes ago, overdraft said:

and yet technology has marched on, which was the basis of the question... is wishbone still better 10 years later? or are we just thinking it is because it was back when masts were those tapered alloy things with pin head sails... and now that we're better at carbon fiber masts and have square top mains could there be a better solution? 

SBH, the pole slot is darn cool... style points over say the Cork 1720 which uses the slot to avoid water getting in through the pole, but has it completely covered. I don't know why more boats with prods don't do this rather than stressing over the gasket because the pole hole leads right inside the boat!

A MUCH shorter package, but here is another cat boat, but with a boom this time...

 

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Over the years of SA, and I'm talking back to the beginning, I have witnessed the "latest" generation of thinking. I cut my teeth on the history of IOR. Some things are well thought out. This looks to be one of them. Form and function in harmony. 

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Hi to everybody,

thanks to everybody for the nice discussion and feedback!

will answer in detail below

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8 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

I really like it...love the pole slot forward and really curious about the companionway open trunk explanation

Yes, there is a lifting keel as well as lifting rudder in order to anchor in sheltered shallow sea or straight to the beach!

It helps also management of the boat when ashore, on his trailer.

Removing the keel and the two-piece mast you can also deliver anywhere inside a 40' HC container

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13 hours ago, Lucky Dog said:

Hey it has 2 of the dreaded offset companways ☺️    Very cool would like to see interior plan

Will post on website an interior plan and some photos as soon as we got mattresses!

I can say for the moment that headroom is limited but not claustrophobic, thanks also to the double companionway and cockpit portlights

Electric engine is outside the hull, so there is room for a central "Queen size" berth inside plus another berth forward

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19 hours ago, Sidecar said:

The daycat 32 is unusual in that the mast is much further aft than most other cat boats and carries a spinnaker set of the retractable .bowsprit/prod.

Even Though the mast is carbon, I would love to know how heavy it is? That sort of weight so far forward in a cat rigged boat can’t help with pitching especially when heeled.

Here,is a more extreme Australian cat boat: http://www.radford-yacht.com/dsn070/dsn070.html

 

You are right, mast and keel are quite aft with nice underwater volumes forward

Mast is no heavier than a Melges 32 with lower VCG and boat has some more RM.

Pitching behaviour is not bad so far!

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Last, the wishbone:

It ended like a natural choice for this kind of boat.

She is aimed  at sailing wife and children and/or friends  and I do not want the deck to be washed by a low boom.. There is always reverse vang but whisboom looks a more logical solution:

- Less stress on mast, leech load goes straight to the mainsheet, whishboom helps flattening mainsail and controlling twist as you bear away.

- You can easily control main camber with outhaul or better "chocker": as you flat you induce at the same time a nice mast bend with the result of powerful mainsail in low wind and flat in a breeze.

- Finally, the owner is a proven windsurfer, it deserved a wishbone!

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1 hour ago, PINGUIN said:

Last, the wishbone:

It ended like a natural choice for this kind of boat.

She is aimed  at sailing wife and children and/or friends  and I do not want the deck to be washed by a low boom.. There is always reverse vang but whisboom looks a more logical solution:

- Less stress on mast, leech load goes straight to the mainsheet, whishboom helps flattening mainsail and controlling twist as you bear away.

- You can easily control main camber with outhaul or better "chocker": as you flat you induce at the same time a nice mast bend with the result of powerful mainsail in low wind and flat in a breeze.

- Finally, the owner is a proven windsurfer, it deserved a wishbone!

I’m digging the wishbone boom. I want to do it on a Turbo project but my NA friend says keep it inexpensive for now so we’re going droopy boom and carbon sails this year. 

Next year...I’m thinking wishbone with an even bigger loose foot on the main

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42 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Pinguin.....how have you used the large interior volume P&S along the cockpit?

and

is this a one-off or a production boat ?

Look like berths to me or maybe the windsurfers go in there

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2 hours ago, PINGUIN said:

Yes, there is a lifting keel as well as lifting rudder in order to anchor in sheltered shallow sea or straight to the beach!

It helps also management of the boat when ashore, on his trailer.

Removing the keel and the two-piece mast you can also deliver anywhere inside a 40' HC container

Can the keel be lifted underway to get in and out of shallows?

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

I’m digging the wishbone boom. I want to do it on a Turbo project but my NA friend says keep it inexpensive for now so we’re going droopy boom and carbon sails this year. 

Next year...I’m thinking wishbone with an even bigger loose foot on the main

Make like a Herreshoff 28 and do a half-wishbone. You really only need one side, although their solution is to put it on a track on the mast rather than having a choker. No, go with the wishbone. :)

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I like the idea. I’ll check it out. I know Sydney Herreshoff drew the Gauntlet I own as  a sloop and a wishbone and jib on a club over extending the bow.

The H-28 half might work since I have a bolt rope slot that I could attach to via a boom car

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We would snicker at the Nonsuch on the Narangansett but, soberly pointed out to me in my younger days, we all someday might be thankful to have anything that sails as simply as a Cat rig.

 

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Wishbone booms on 360 spinning, freestanding masts make SO MUCH sense, I’m blown away there are not more, and more! Mono, or multi! I’ve never owned any other boat, but this thing is the easiest thing ever to sail!

 

06D83D01-C874-4257-B2B6-D6C18B2ED81D.jpeg

1E6EEF1E-90DB-447F-90E4-1AD025D5FD97.jpeg

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On 2/13/2018 at 9:59 PM, Veeger said:

My first thought too (but larger).   However, pay attention to the post before you.  This thread is done.

Wow!  Looks like there was a lot of life left in this thread--cool!   Who woulda known?

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