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1 hour ago, LionIsland said:

Looks to me like it was a beam reach on the lee side of the island. If so who knows what crazy shit the breeze was doing?

(That’s an insane photo of Apollo, is that from the race?) 

Yes it sure is. The breeze around Saba was all over the place, add in darkness and squalls and it’s a tricky situation. 

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2 hours ago, foiledagain said:

That is such a cool picture!  How much of the time were you flying a hull as opposed to just skimming?  Did the bows have any tendancy to trip/decelerate the boat?

My hat is off to owners willing to sail their multi-millin multis to the edge... hard enough to do it on a little cat where the only consequence is getting wet for a bit.

Lol I have no idea if we were genuinely flying a hull. We pushed her as hard as we could that’s for sure. 3 times the bows buried with water coming right over the deck and into the cockpit but all was good, they just popped back up after a few seconds. We were wet the whole time, salt water wash every 20 seconds of so in 35 - 40 knots apparent isn’t fun ;)

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22 hours ago, Bruce Sutherland said:

 and Dazzla  what you lot probably dont know is that the skipper of Dazzla who is on board is a mere 86 years old.

Seriously tough dude.  They seem determined to finish.

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8 minutes ago, Darrens44 said:

Lol, what century are you living in !

Well that was informative. The 21st century.

What engine or electrical failure caused retirement? Lack of power for charting and navigation? Are sailing instruments required for safety? Powered winches or foils?

I realize it is a complicated and hazardous zig-zag course. In this century is it typical to be unable to finish a course without power hungry charting? Batteries cannot do  enough even with an effort at conserving power?

I want to know. 

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1 hour ago, daddle said:

Well that was informative. The 21st century.

What engine or electrical failure caused retirement? Lack of power for charting and navigation? Are sailing instruments required for safety? Powered winches or foils?

I realize it is a complicated and hazardous zig-zag course. In this century is it typical to be unable to finish a course without power hungry charting? Batteries cannot do  enough even with an effort at conserving power?

I want to know. 

Engine and genset would not start, relays in the charging system failed so it transpires. We have now investigated the issue and next time have solutions. The retirement was a safety issue, being caught on a Lee shore in 30 knots would not be cool. 

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3 minutes ago, cynophobe said:

Yet the smallest boat in the fleet is still out there. 

Its the fight in the dog , not the dog in the fight. 

Yes, I wonder how their engine and electrics are holding up;)

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1 minute ago, Darrens44 said:

Engine and genset would not start, relays in the charging system failed so it transpires. We have now investigated the issue and next time have solutions. The retirement was a safety issue, being caught on a Lee shore in 30 knots would not be cool. 

Makes sense. Thx.

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2 minutes ago, Darrens44 said:

  being caught on a Lee shore in 30 knots would not be cool. 

Yes, good call. Being caught on a lee shore in 30 in sailboat could be an absolute disaster.;)

I take it you don't hang round in the trade wind belt much?

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1 minute ago, overlay said:

Yes, good call. Being caught on a lee shore in 30 in sailboat could be an absolute disaster.;)

I take it you don't hang round in the trade wind belt much?

No, not at all. We are from Cornwall and Devon in the UK.  Last time I was over here was the ARC in 95. We are more used to 10-15 knots of breeze too !

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3 minutes ago, Darrens44 said:

Engine and genset would not start, relays in the charging system failed so it transpires. We have now investigated the issue and next time have solutions. The retirement was a safety issue, being caught on a Lee shore in 30 knots would not be cool. 

A situation where you could have continued but chose not to. Seems reasonable. Being able to continue is not the same as should continue. Had you continued and then blown sails or lost rig (which you could well have done) might have left you REALY regretting your choice. Better to go back next year having sorted out the electrical

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Just now, KC375 said:

A situation where you could have continued but chose not to. Seems reasonable. Being able to continue is not the same as should continue. Had you continued and then blown sails or lost rig (which you could well have done) might have left you REALY regretting your choice. Better to go back next year having sorted out the electrical

Exactly this. 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Seriously tough dude.  They seem determined to finish.

I did not know the skipper of Dazzla was 86.  Glad to see them still at it as last year they lost the rig off St. Maarten.  Also had issues in the beginning so had a delayed start according to the tracker.

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Darrens44, you made the right call. Multiple systems failures are what lead to bad situations. Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.

Folks, you've perhaps looked at the images of the fleet around St. Barths. The waves in that part of the world are nasty, and you really don't get it until you've sailed down there. I'm not surprised to see this many breakages; keep in mind this is the same part of the world that Belle Mente and other big monohulls (see retirements list) have suffered worse fates than most of the multihull fleet.

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There used to be a very popular T-Shirt design from I think was the North St Thomas loft that proclaimed

BUILT TO LAST IN THE CARIBBEAN BLAST

Here is CONCISE sailing through the lee of Saba in more benign conditions last year I think it was

Screen-Shot-2016-03-08-at-16.31.47.png

 

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Has this been posted yet?  I understand that Fujin was taken under tow by a fishing boat that was nearby and was towed veeeerrry slowly into port.  

Confirmation?

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47 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Fujin was near us inshore. Not much coverage of that end here. 

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1 hour ago, Left Shift said:

Has this been posted yet?  I understand that Fujin was taken under tow by a fishing boat that was nearby and was towed veeeerrry slowly into port.  

Confirmation?

We heard on vhf that a tow was on its way from Saba Island to them. No other info just yet though. 

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Morticia on the final leg now

Keep it together guys                                            so..........bloody...........Tired!

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Huge congratulations to Morticia for finishing. Can wait to hear the stories when they get home. Unbelievable determination to get through. 

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Interview with Greg on Fujin (above) says they were getting hit with lifting puffs ~30 knots as they came our of Saba lee with staysl and reefed main.  Got hit by a bigger one they weren't ready for and over she went.  2 second delay when the mast hit, shroud failed and turtled in another 2 seconds.  

No discussion of what they could have done differently yet.

"Everyone has a scary story about after the turtle, but all ok.  Greg was tethered, slid to leeward in the capsize but slowed by jack line, auto inflate made his release hard to get to as the air under the boat started to go away, managed to release and swam out."

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Would be interesting to hear if anyone was on the main sheet and/or if they attempted to dump main before/during those two seconds..... If there was an issue with response time due to the hydraulic main cylinder mentioned in an early post etc.

Guessing that someone needs to have their hand on the main sheet at all times in those conditions. In a laser, two seconds is time to tack, round a mark and gybe while chugging beer... Of course everything takes longer on a 50' boat, but two seconds should be enough time to dump at least some main sheet if there was a main trimmer on station. 

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2 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Interview with Greg on Fujin (above) says they were getting hit with lifting puffs ~30 knots as they came our of Saba lee with staysl and reefed main.  Got hit by a bigger one they weren't ready for and over she went.  2 second delay when the mast hit, shroud failed and turtled in another 2 seconds.  

No discussion of what they could have done differently yet.

"Everyone has a scary story about after the turtle, but all ok.  Greg was tethered, slid to leeward in the capsize but slowed by jack line, auto inflate made his release hard to get to as the air under the boat started to go away, managed to release and swam out."

Does anyone have a good story about jacklines?  Not padeyes or other hard spots.  Those I use often. 

But jacklines?  I've only been swept along bow to stern one once on the leeward rail, but not in a critical moment, just during a broach.  Just some bruises.  But I've always been suspicious about them.  On my boat we rig them fore and aft in thirds, so you can only go so far.  Not sure about side-to-side. 

But those guys have ten times my experience.  Even more in multihulls

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2 hours ago, Student_Driver said:

Would be interesting to hear if anyone was on the main sheet and/or if they attempted to dump main before/during those two seconds..... If there was an issue with response time due to the hydraulic main cylinder mentioned in an early post etc.

Guessing that someone needs to have their hand on the main sheet at all times in those conditions. In a laser, two seconds is time to tack, round a mark and gybe while chugging beer... Of course everything takes longer on a 50' boat, but two seconds should be enough time to dump at least some main sheet if there was a main trimmer on station. 

Lots of variables I guess. Just dumping the main mat not save you, all depends on the angle of the boat to the breeze and waves too. 

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On 2/20/2018 at 3:15 AM, bushsailor said:

...I do know how to right a 50' cat if the rig stayed in the boat though without damaging itB)...

 

Bridle on the turtled boat, get it's nose pointed just off the wind, pull it up from upwind?

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    Take a look at Saba in Google Earth and you will see that it is a Dr Suess looking rock coming straight out of the ocean. Gusts coming around the far lee side of the Island would be compressed headers with wind maybe 20-30% higher in the gusts than what you would have just come out of in the channel since the last Island (Statia). You get the same nasty leeward roundings all the way up the little chain of islands between Saba and Nevis but Saba might just be the most unpredictable on the bunch and in the dark you can't see those williwaws coming. If a bad header/gust comes at you at the same time one of the downburst come over the mountain you can be dismasted or upside down in an instant. Been there done that and can only imagine how shocked the Fujin crew were when it happened. The closer you cut behind the worse it gets and sometimes you can round wide and make ground on the boats cutting the corner. There was a Nevisian skipper who sailed his Newick tri out of St Croix who was a wizard on just how close you could cut it around all those islands and I learned a lot having him onboard for some races. I learned even more watching him sail around us on a tri that was 4 foot shorter and about three decades older. 

    Greg, if you ever get a chance to meet LLewelyan Westermann, take him for a sail (or the other way around for the time being...). Best local rock pilot around those parts.

Image result for llewellyn westerman

     

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This is a good example of what a job this race is on a smaller boat compare to a bigger; it was hell on the SC30 but seems to be a nice sail on Paradox - and hell lasted almost twice as long....

Both was state of the art modern fast trimarans with experienced crew.

 

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Re: Morticia: http://caribbean600.rorc.org/News-2018/she-ll-be-right.html

I can imagine (no I can’t, actually) that if those guys reckon it was tough to get around on that little light-weight tri then it really was a mighty effort. 

Surprised? No. Impressed and amazed?  Very! 

It’s tempting to say it was mad what they did but it obviously wasn’t because they knew exactly what they were doing. Their abilities are undoubted and it wasn’t even lucky the boat hung together as it was no doubt great preparation and their ability to nurse it (and knowing them while not pussy footing around either.) 

How good do you think a shower, a decent feed and a beer would’ve felt after that? And possibly not in that order!! 

Good one fellas, inspiring. I’ll have some of what they’ve got, thanks. 

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On 22/02/2018 at 2:52 AM, Wess said:

  Perhaps a bit eye opening for those following the multihull fleet and sector.

That said there are a fair number of retirements in the monohull fleet though not nearly as many (as a % of the fleet) as for the multis.

Waiting for your correction on that one. 

By my reckoning close enough to 50% drop out rate for both styles of design. (Ie leaded and sans leaded.) yes? 

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"Team Dazzla safely back in port. Lost the forestay at 5am when the fitting twisted and then let go. We had been sailing with three reefs and a scrap of foresail only through massive squalls, the last wind speed we saw before it went was 44 knots, then we couldn't see the instruments anymore as the driving rain was like razors on our faces and eyes...David and Colin jury rigged a stay so the mast didn't fall down but sadly not strong enough for us to risk continuing to sail and stay in the race. Motoring for 14 hours to get back to Falmouth harbour, much of the way with just one engine due to it overheating, wind still gusting up to 38 knots and big seas pushing us off course so it was a long journey home. 
We're sad we weren't able to complete the race but are very proud of ourselves for what we did manage in extreme conditions. I'll post some more shots and updates tomorrow. In the meantime, here's the guilty fitting that let us down"

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6 hours ago, LionIsland said:

Waiting for your correction on that one. 

By my reckoning close enough to 50% drop out rate for both styles of design. (Ie leaded and sans leaded.) yes? 

Correct what?  I am a multi owner and fan.  Not into slinging sh*t but not into rose colored glasses either.  Clearly tough conditions and lots of folks and boats I respect out there.  But it is a fact that we had only 4 out of 11 finish in the multi fleet (greater % retirement than monohulls) and much as I like em all, only one of those multis that finished could fairly be described as a performance cruiser (vs all out racer).  This does not seem like a good look for the multi sector but that is just my view and worth what you paid.  Of course you are welcome to disagree.  Hats off to the SeaCart (boat and crew). 

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Has this been shared: http://swiftsureyachts.com/update-brad-bakers-take-from-the-caribbean-600-capsize-aboard-fujin/

"o one knows the wind speed for sure, because it happened so quickly, but we were hit by a strong lifting puff likely in the 35 knot range (we had been sailing in the high teens). We did not react quickly enough to ease the mainsheet, traveler and jib and the boat went over. It happened quickly and the capsize paused when the mast hit the water. Within seconds the leeward shrouds broke and the boat quickly turned turtle."

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40 minutes ago, Zonker said:
Quote

One lesson learned was that automatic inflating PFD’s may not be the best choice for a cat that can capsize. Everyone got out fine, but there were some worrisome moments with the PFD inflated and the need to swim under and out. I had changed to a manual PFD so did not inflate my own until I was safely on the bottom (outside) of the overturned catamaran.

 

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10 hours ago, LionIsland said:

Waiting for your correction on that one. 

By my reckoning close enough to 50% drop out rate for both styles of design. (Ie leaded and sans leaded.) yes? 

I think I've met this guy WESS before and if he's the same guy I'm thinking of, he's pretty good at mutlihulling,.  He's occasionally gone out of his way to advocate for multis and I've gotten into on-line arguments with him about their relative safety merits, and I think he's hardly the guy to unfairly criticize boats that have more than one hull. 

But that being said, this flip of Fujin is a gut-punch. So glad everyone made it to the surface OK. I think the conversation about the merits of being tethered in with an auto-inflate PFD is a worthwhile discussion.  Clearly those on board think so too, thanks for posting the audio link, ProaS. 

A close relative of mine with not a whole lot of sailing experience in general just bought a big ass cruising cat to fart around in the Carib, so this seriously piques my interest. 

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4 hours ago, Zonker said:

Has this been shared: http://swiftsureyachts.com/update-brad-bakers-take-from-the-caribbean-600-capsize-aboard-fujin/

"o one knows the wind speed for sure, because it happened so quickly, but we were hit by a strong lifting puff likely in the 35 knot range (we had been sailing in the high teens). We did not react quickly enough to ease the mainsheet, traveler and jib and the boat went over. It happened quickly and the capsize paused when the mast hit the water. Within seconds the leeward shrouds broke and the boat quickly turned turtle."

From this description, one might infer that there was no one with their hand resting on the main sheet and traveler controls at the time of the gust.  I would think that one of the key takeaways from this incident would be that in conditions with expected variable and high winds, having someone on station at the main sheet-traveler at all times would be essential to safety.

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That was my take-away, too, SD.

I don't know diddly about squat, but from the photos, this design seems to have very little (like: none) reserve buoyancy forward.  I wonder if driving down the mine was a factor in this case?

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Ummm...teamer, that's the whole point of reserve buoyancy.  I get the whole wave-piercing-bow technology thing on some designs. Just not on this one.

(btw I own a pretty fast boat but alas, with just one puny hull)

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46 minutes ago, teamvmg said:

With fast boats, it's not about reserve bouyancy, its about cutting down the drag of the bows when submerged

+1 if you sail a Hobie 16 this gets driven into you.

Sounds like they were blown over sideways by a big gust on their beam though. 

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We tipped Roushour(50'cat) over in very similar conditions. Went over sideways capsized by self tacking heady only in our case.

We were lucky that we have a very strong rig and mast and it did not break and we righted the boat within 2 hours. We had no structural damage and no rig damage so insurance claim was minimal.

For Fujins rig to break indicates to me that they need better rigging, I bet she has synthetic crap.

I am not a fan of auto lifejackets or tethers unless bow work is being done in rough conditions.

It is a kick in the guts for all multihull sailing when one goes over, hopefully insurance looks at the big picture of all multihulls.

A point was made though that every time a mono broaches or gets knocked down would be a capsize in a racing multi.

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Talked to a friend on the boat, it went over sideways with people on both sheets and the traveler... Sounded like they were tired but not totally wasted.

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So a highly experienced, "Dream Team" crew couldn't get it around a trade wind race track?:o

 

Not even thru the first night?

 

And nothing actually broke / failed to cause the capsize?

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On 21/02/2018 at 12:40 PM, foiledagain said:

In this case though SA is shitting in their bed.  Fujin is a very well made boat from a very respected builder, designed by one of the best sailboat designers and sailed by some of the best sailors.  Its a terrible day for these guys so It stands out as unbelievably lame for SA to post that kind of crap on their front page...crapping on the sailing community and their readers.  Real content would be calling up the sailors and finding out what happened, how everyone got out safely, and any lessons learned.

I think there’s old history between the Ed here and Paul. 

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5 minutes ago, woodruffkey said:

So a highly experienced, "Dream Team" crew couldn't get it around a trade wind race track?:o

 

Not even thru the first night?

 

And nothing actually broke / failed to cause the capsize?

That sofa comfortable?

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On 2/22/2018 at 5:51 PM, dcnblues said:

Bridle on the turtled boat, get it's nose pointed just off the wind, pull it up from upwind

Almost - better to pull the sterns over - the bows have less buoyancy and sink easier.

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8 hours ago, BeerDidClam said:

A close relative of mine with not a whole lot of sailing experience in general just bought a big ass cruising cat to fart around in the Carib, so this seriously piques my interest

Big ass cruising cats are sailed a little more conservatively if it's your house. Also they are relatively under-rigged and much heavier. Thus much more stable are really hard to flip.

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4 hours ago, woodruffkey said:

So a highly experienced, "Dream Team" crew couldn't get it around a trade wind race track?:o

 

Not even thru the first night?

 

And nothing actually broke / failed to cause the capsize?

Love me some sockpuppets. 

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On 2/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Russell Brown said:

Who the fuck titled the report on the front page?

The editors of SA have been very flip about a lot of things. This is the first one that has really bothered me. Of course multihulls can capsize. Does that make them "Unsafe at any Speed". I don't think so and I think it's a really stupid thing to say about an accident, especially before finding out what happened.

either scot or someone who sent it in to him.  wasn't me.

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7 hours ago, Zonker said:

Almost - better to pull the sterns over - the bows have less buoyancy and sink easier.

Never seen one pulled over that way, not saying it wouldn't work but  bows over stern makes more sense to me because the sterns offer more resistance to dig in and initiate the rotation. I think this would make an interesting topic on its own and I look forward to seeing how they right Fujin. Do you know of any cat righted stern over bows ?

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3 hours ago, Steve said:

Never seen one pulled over that way, not saying it wouldn't work but  bows over stern makes more sense to me because the sterns offer more resistance to dig in and initiate the rotation. I think this would make an interesting topic on its own and I look forward to seeing how they right Fujin. Do you know of any cat righted stern over bows ?

I’ve never righted or seen righted a large multihull so I only have “book learning”.

 

Ian Farrier suggests either direction can work – submerging the end that is already most submerged

“When the opportunity arises, and outside assistance is available, the most successful righting system for any multihull, is to tow the capsized boat fore and aft, the tow line going to the aft end, in the form of a bridle. Which end depends on the boat, but the general rule is to choose the end that is floating highest. Thus as the boat begins to move, the lowest end, be it bows or stern, will begin to sink, and even more so as the water inside rushes forward. The boat should then flip back upright, bow over stern or visa versa.”

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18 hours ago, soma said:

That sofa comfortable?

11 boats started, 3 trimarans , 8 catamarans. 

 

3 / 3 trimarans finished.

1 / 8 catamarans finished

1 catamaran couldn't even stay upright for the first night.

 

Nothing to discuss here. Right??

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On 2/24/2018 at 10:35 AM, BeerDidClam said:

Ummm...teamer, that's the whole point of reserve buoyancy.  I get the whole wave-piercing-bow technology thing on some designs. Just not on this one.

(btw I own a pretty fast boat but alas, with just one puny hull)

"Just not on this one"    Errrr no then you clearly don't get it....   plus the design has nothing to do with the capsize.... 

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36 minutes ago, PIL007 said:

"Just not on this one"    Errrr no then you clearly don't get it....   plus the design has nothing to do with the capsize.... 

Definitely not in regards to reserve buoyancy because it was a sideways capsize.

The one thing that I might be a significant factor would the fact that this is a pretty powered and light weight racing cat with a solid deck. I think most cats in that performance bracket would just have netting.

I'm thinking the solid deck gives you a lot less margin for recovery: past a certain angle of heel with a big puff coming from the beam it's going to go over regardless of easing the sheets where a netted cat might have come back down.

This could be a contributing factor to going over even with top crew as they might have gotten to the point of no-return quicker than what they were used to, I'd be interested to hear their thoughts on this (I understand the designer was on board at the time)...

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+1

 Paul Bieker, the designer was on board.

Condo style cats have more windage and a higher CG than a racing cat or a tri. Someone else noted above that all the tris finished, but only one (condo) cat. The dihedral on tri cross beams probably helps as well to keep the CG to windward at larger angles of heel....

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11 minutes ago, Airwick said:

Definitely not in regards to reserve buoyancy because it was a sideways capsize.

The one thing that I might be a significant factor would the fact that this is a pretty powered and light weight racing cat with a solid deck. I think most cats in that performance bracket would just have netting.

I'm thinking the solid deck gives you a lot less margin for recovery: past a certain angle of heel with a big puff coming from the beam it's going to go over regardless of easing the sheets where a netted cat might have come back down.

This could be a contributing factor to going over even with top crew as they might have gotten to the point of no-return quicker than what they were used to, I'd be interested to hear their thoughts on this (I understand the designer was on board at the time)...

I'm pretty sure that the designer would agree with everything you have said.

Also, they were racing very hard in wild conditions at night and were rounding an island that produces big gusts and wind shifts even in normal trade-winds.

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5 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

........Also, they were racing very hard in wild conditions at night and were rounding an island that produces big gusts and wind shifts even in normal trade-winds.

+1

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Looking at the pics and vids; Paradox is pure grace in these conditions - Elvis looking good - but not that good. The 50tri - too big floats? Not many footage Seacart30 looking good - but have to go up and down the waves. The F4 seems to semi foil - looking very good throught the waves keeping up with bigger boats as long as they sailed. Fujin - seem to struggle with going in the waves - bridgedeck clearance- lots of water - but going fast - think they pushed really hard...

All tris finished just one cat....  The tris was more or less pure raceboats - but SC30 and Paradox has some room.

  

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Any person or boat that finished that race deserves better than to be contested here. Go sail that course yourself sometime before you jump in here like you know what you are talking about. Those are some pretty brutal conditions this year but that is what makes the Caribbean 600 what it is!

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

Any person or boat that finished that race deserves better than to be contested here. Go sail that course yourself sometime before you jump in here like you know what you are talking about. Those are some pretty brutal conditions this year but that is what makes the Caribbean 600 what it is!

If it was my little review of how the boats where moving in these conditions that sparked this rant; said nothing about the crews - just comparing the boats judged from pics an vids - my opinion....  are you a judge here?  

 

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On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 2:50 PM, soma said:

I think you need some weight on the rail with that forecast! I know a fat guy who'd be happy to be ballast!

 

a couple of numbers jump out at me. I'd expect Flow to be much closer to Elvis. The Multi 50 won't see much of Paradox. Mortician is f'd. 

My boat on boat prediction...

 

Paradox

Multi 50

Fujin/Elvis/Flow (even money)

Morticia (unlikely to finish due to breakage)

TS (hopefully they finish)

Dazcat(s)

 

Bummer Phaedo didn't come out. Best class in C600 history. Wish I was there!

Care to re evaluate your choices?...............Now!

 

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10 hours ago, Airwick said:

Definitely not in regards to reserve buoyancy because it was a sideways capsize.

It would be interesting to have the equivalent of a "flight recorder" fixed to a bulkhead in the boat, to know more about events like this.  A cell phone app in a waterproof case?  Recordings of acceleration/deceleration forces, pitch, roll, etc., might affect some design choices, even without flipping a boat.

In theory, a hi-tech "preventer" using this data could auto-release the sheets and if that fails, drop the mast before letting the boat flip - but that's dangerous too.  Relatively easy and not very hi-tech anymore, though.

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It was brutal out there. Wind rarely dropped below 23 knots, was nearer 30 knots for most of it. On Apollo the sailing was fine, couple of sphincter twitching moments on the VMG run after Barbuda where the bows went down the mine but she popped back up again. Our retirement was due to power issues and lack of knowledge regarding the electrical arrangements which we now know about and could probably overcome in future. The sea state was awful too, very confused seas with very large waves. Do not think for one minute that it was your standard 15 knot trade wind conditions 

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10 hours ago, woodruffkey said:

Bwahahahahahahahaha

 

So design stops at the gunnel?

We were talking about reserve buoyancy in the bows or the lack of it (according to some here) ...... How is that a factor in this capsize  ...?  It didn't trip if i go by the report from a crew member here that was onboard at the time of the incident...

So please explain..? 

 

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Man, I have to say the arguments in this thread that I least respect are the ones generalizing about multihull safety. A) Newer / high performance / racing multihulls have either daggerboards or centerboards which are efficient enough that if sailed carefully, the older arguments about not being able to sail away from a lee shore in storm conditions no longer hold. B ) THIS WAS RACING. This was pushing as much sail as possible, for the sake of a race, by crews who were willing to break their boats in extreme conditions for the sake of a RACE. If you're still going to disrespect these amazing mulithulls, please make your case against an appropriately trained crew sailing conservatively with minimal / reefed canvas in storm conditions. Especially as it's my impression these newer fast multis mostly go with rounded hull profiles, which simply slide sideways even in breaking waves, you're going to have a hard prosecution against these amazing boats, in any conditions. *And it's certainly my guess that the new Gunboat will have a more accessible mainsheet dump button [than on Rainmaker].

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“We had some pretty heavy conditions for a boat like this, with some gnarly squalls. We just had to back off and take it easy. This race was just about making it to the finish line." -Morticia's skipper Dale Mitchell

 

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8 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

...In theory, a hi-tech "preventer" using this data could auto-release the sheets and if that fails, drop the mast before letting the boat flip - but that's dangerous too.  Relatively easy and not very hi-tech anymore, though.

That's interesting. You mean having a sacrificial 'self destruct' in the mast which could be triggered by the computer? Interesting. Do you know of any such setup?

Another thought is that the main sheet load has a lot of energy. I wonder whether you could run the sheet through the centerboard riser(s)? Hit the dump button, and mainsheet eases but braked by the leeward centerboard coming up. Win / win for capsize reduction...

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25 years ago I had a heel alarm on my cat so my inexperienced crew knew when to blow the trav / main.... these days there are all sorts of systems available but the best one is still a human throwing sheet imo.

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Sounds like they did have trimmers on the sheets but could not react in time. To be fair, in two seconds, you've probably just taken the sheet out of the self tailer and unwound a few wraps within two seconds, perhaps let out a few yards of sheet. Some performance catamarans seem to have big red buttons to release traveler and/or mainsheet in an emergency. Wonder if these are capable of releasing faster than a human.

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23 minutes ago, PIL007 said:

25 years ago I had a heel alarm on my cat so my inexperienced crew knew when to blow the trav / main.... these days there are all sorts of systems available but the best one is still a human throwing sheet imo.

The thread from the g4 capzize

had quite a discussion of upsideup and other automated approaches to dumping the main

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It's an old idea, some systems have been used on offshore multihulls, I haven't kept up on it.  Nothing needs to be in the mast to drop the rig, that can be done at the base of the windward stay.  Let it go somehow so a deck-stepped mast falls down (or at least drops or is rapidly eased 45 degrees) before heeling or pitching into the flip zone (55 degrees from vertical in any direction?).  Auto-release sheets are less extreme than dropping the mast but you don't want anyone in the way to leeward if either safety system lets go.  Controlled, rapid easing without "losing it" would be best!

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Not saying that this was the case, but sail balance is important as well.....

I am sure that most of us have seen/been on boats blown flat with fully dumped main and a genoa/too large foresail up with no way to even round up into the wind..

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One should also keep in mind that the G4 flipped because of the jib, and if I were a betting man Fujin's jib had a say in the matter as well. You can test this for yourself on boats that can be easily righted by two if you are willing to launch in +25 kts of breeze. Dumping main alone often isn't enough when reaching.

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2 hours ago, Student_Driver said:

Sounds like they did have trimmers on the sheets but could not react in time. To be fair, in two seconds, you've probably just taken the sheet out of the self tailer and unwound a few wraps within two seconds, perhaps let out a few yards of sheet. Some performance catamarans seem to have big red buttons to release traveler and/or mainsheet in an emergency. Wonder if these are capable of releasing faster than a human.

I know a few of the crew, I don't think any of them has cleated a sheet they were trimming in years.

A big lifting puff would have negated a lot of sheet ease.

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3 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Controlled, rapid easing without "losing it" would be best!

Better than electronic would be a passive, mechanical, elastic method, a shock absorber, "relaxing dramatically" at peak loads and "snapping back" fully as normal shroud tension is restored.

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3 hours ago, samc99us said:

One should also keep in mind that the G4 flipped because of the jib, and if I were a betting man Fujin's jib had a say in the matter as well. You can test this for yourself on boats that can be easily righted by two if you are willing to launch in +25 kts of breeze. Dumping main alone often isn't enough when reaching.

In the video of the G4 Capsize it looks like the jib is eased before / more than the main...not obvious it was the Jib the caused the capsize. At the time some where suggesting that the premature easing of the Jim meant it wasn't possible to bare away rapidly to prevent the capsize. (I'm not pretending to have an informed view merely repeating some of the original comments).

 

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7 hours ago, Student_Driver said:

Sounds like they did have trimmers on the sheets but could not react in time. To be fair, in two seconds, you've probably just taken the sheet out of the self tailer and unwound a few wraps within two seconds, perhaps let out a few yards of sheet. Some performance catamarans seem to have big red buttons to release traveler and/or mainsheet in an emergency. Wonder if these are capable of releasing faster than a human.

Not just "trimmers", but some of the best trimmers and drivers in the world.   I would be very surprised if the sheets were locked into self tailers with those guys on board in those conditions.  

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I can imagine a big header with both trimmers grinding in on the self tailer, then a lifting puff and not getting them out of the self tailers quickly enough.  No inside knowledge on this case, but worth thinking about.

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...In theory, a hi-tech "preventer" using this data could auto-release the sheets and if that fails, drop the mast before letting the boat flip - but that's dangerous too.  Relatively easy and not very hi-tech anymore, though.

Not theory - google UpSideUp - a french company that supplies a system that does just that. Been using it for years on ORMAs etc.

I also doubt the sheets were in self tailers. Either hand held or at worst in cam cleats holding the tails...

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6 hours ago, KC375 said:

In the video of the G4 Capsize it looks like the jib is eased before / more than the main...not obvious it was the Jib the caused the capsize. At the time some where suggesting that the premature easing of the Jim meant it wasn't possible to bare away rapidly to prevent the capsize. (I'm not pretending to have an informed view merely repeating some of the original comments).

Interesting to watch it again. Dumped Code Zero/reacher without dumping the main seemed to cause G4 to round up and fall over. The other thing was that with the boat up more or less on foils, maybe the (dynamically effective) CB shifts to windward with increasing heel as opposed to (normally) shifting to leeward in displacement mode thus accelerating/exacerbating the heeling/capsize process? <