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They shuttered their factory in Rhode Island and quit selling product in this hemisphere a few years ago. 

As dealers have sold off their remaining stock many have decided to sell AEROs or other lines of sporting equipment. Central Texas former dealer now sells auto parts and general hardware. Houston’s dealer has been vigorously promoting the AERO and other RS brand boats.

Former customers of the former North American Sunfish /Laser factory are either scavenging parts from old boats or switching to sailing in the very well promoted and supported AERO class boat. 

There are still occasional Laser and Sunfish events being held around North America where old friends get together to bitch about LP’s destruction of their formerly great game but, without access to new boats and parts, the strict one design rules that made those two games fabulously successful are rarely enforced. 

A while back the Laser game managers decided to allow a fancy new Sail and composite top section that made it necessary to spend $1000 to keep an older But pristine Laser competitive.

A few well connected sailors have managed to procure those items but the rest of the fleet still brings the old outmoded designs to competitions. Others bring sails from aftermarket suppliers like Intensity or a local favorite sailmaker. One design Sunfish and Laser Sailing In North America is pretty much a thing of the past.

Maybe the AERO will replace them both.

Maybe someone will see the giant wide open available market for an an inexpensive, durable, singlehanded Sailboat and choose to start the next sailing boom.

In the meantime, your best bet for obtaining Laser parts is to befriend someone in Australia and convince that friend to ship parts or whole boats made by the only builders who still give a rat’s patootie about Sailboat racing.  

 

I suggest you Sail it as is or take your Laser to the landfill and buy an AERO

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Are things that bad in the USA?

Parts availability is fine here in the UK, AFAICT. They are pricey but that's the nature of the class, it seems. As I've said before, you're not buying the boat, you're buying into the class. If you want the boat but don't care about strict one-design, then pattern parts are better value.

 My understanding of the "new" sail and Carbon mast-section is that they are not a performance upgrade but a durability upgrade- the carbon top-sections don't bend the way the Aluminium ones are prone to.

 Has the legal challenge really killed the supply in the States?   What about Canada? Mexico?

 Cheers,

                W.

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23 minutes ago, Satan Himself said:

 

There are still occasional Laser and Sunfish events being held around North America where old friends get together 

yea over 150 boats http://www.regattanetwork.com/event/15349#_newsroom`

almost 25 boats on the water https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=results&rid=3415

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My understanding is the owner of LP owns many other businesses. One is a baby stroller company, the same one that had strollers collapse that killed some babies.  To support those lawsuits he has been stripping the assets of the other companies to pay for those claims.  LP shut down operations in the U.S. and shipped manufacturing to China.  Supplies are thin, hard to find, and take a long time to get.

While it has been suggested that a U.S. bloke buy the company and get things going again, the owner apparently has no interest in selling and no interest in building it into a fine company once again.

Then there is that Laser vs. Torch thing.

 

 

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Crap, I just bought and old laser....hopefully intensity will keep supplying "practice" parts, don't really care if they are "approved"

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38 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

My understanding is the owner of LP owns many other businesses. One is a baby stroller company, the same one that had strollers collapse that killed some babies.  To support those lawsuits he has been stripping the assets of the other companies to pay for those claims.  LP shut down operations in the U.S. and shipped manufacturing to China.  Supplies are thin, hard to find, and take a long time to get.

While it has been suggested that a U.S. bloke buy the company and get things going again, the owner apparently has no interest in selling and no interest in building it into a fine company once again.

Then there is that Laser vs. Torch thing.

 

 

I don't think the strollers killed anyone. They just chopped off a few fingers.

 

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3 hours ago, cwjones321 said:

Does anyone know the most recent status of Laser Perf.?  I'm finding it really hard to get parts and sails

You should get planer boards. Its works even better!  :)

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1 hour ago, Satan Himself said:

 

 

 

I suggest you Sail it as is or take your Laser to the landfill and buy an AERO

Hopefully that's a joke.

An old Laser with non-stock parts is far from outliving it's usefulness as a cottage boat, donation boat to community sailing etc. 

It's a great boat to give a kid a first look at sailing. Perfect learning platform for anyone.

Took out a cottage neighbour wakeboard kid last season and he had an absolute blast.

Throwing one in a landfill because you can't find class-approved parts?...come on man!

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1 hour ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

My understanding is the owner of LP owns many other businesses. One is a baby stroller company, the same one that had strollers collapse that killed some babies.  To support those lawsuits he has been stripping the assets of the other companies to pay for those claims.  LP shut down operations in the U.S. and shipped manufacturing to China.  Supplies are thin, hard to find, and take a long time to get.

While it has been suggested that a U.S. bloke buy the company and get things going again, the owner apparently has no interest in selling and no interest in building it into a fine company once again.

Then there is that Laser vs. Torch thing.

 

 

Maclaren North America I believe. I moved a couple of container for them to their CT location and the loading dock guy mentioned something to my driver about "boats"

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For all those who would like to kill the Laser, or at least see it dead, stop. Just stop. Yes, LP has been screwing the class badly. And parts are hard to come by (George at West Coast Sailing keeps a lot of us going) 

HOWEVER

There's still great racing. "Satan Himself" should relocate his head where he can see a little better. True, where there might have been 50 boats, there might now be 25. Young sailors who dream of the Olympics have a relatively cheap boat to give it a go. To pass off what thousands of people do as "getting together to bitch about LP's destruction," is lame. 

It's a 40 year old design, but ever so slowly it's getting some good changes. Carbon top section, much better (longer lived) new sail, plus enabling electronic compasses and improved hiking strap arrangement. The control upgrades from several years ago really helped things. It's still a little pain box, but the best can sail it in 30kts and it'll ghost along nicely in 5. The 4.7 rig, Radial and standard rigs make the hull usable by several sized people.  There's even a big Intensity sail for the big guys. With its simplicity, little rudder and shape, it's a great boat to teach sailing.

In Seattle we have a real Aero fleet AND a real Laser fleet. We work together to capitalize on the strengths of each boat. 

Basically, there's life left in the Laser class. It's not the fastest boat, but it's durable, cheap when used and there's great racing to be had. To diss the class doesn't do anybody any good. 

And LP - what they've been doing is unconscionable and it might eventually result in the Laser's death. But for now, there's still great, inexpensive racing and a lot of us want to keep that going despite what LP and naysayers do.

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Anybody notice the new highest paid quarterback in the NFL was abandoned by New England because Tom Brady has been great for years and still has a few really  good performances left in him? 

In five years it will be painfully obvious to Patriots fans that the management’s failure to move on to the up and coming left them as the old and fading... or worse.

Certainly THIS YEAR for folks within 1000 miles of Austin,  the Easter Laser Regatta will still be the best non-nationals opportunity for adults to race in a fleet of one design singlehanded boats.

I will race. I will do my damndest to drag friends and potential friends to join the fun.  Hell, I have even offered to supply boats if @couchsurfer @bill4 or a few others manage to get here. 

But

i am seriously gathering my funds for purchase of an AERO. 

When the 49ers are in the Super Bowl and the Patriots are not ... perhaps folks will understand why so many of us understood it was time to move on to a new one design fleet that is fully supported by an energetic builder. 

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I see one thing and one thing only that's wrong with the Laser (aside from inflated cost for new boats and the horrible supply issue in the United States):

The hulls don't stay competitive.

That's the long and short of it. They become soft and flexible with a year of hard sailing. When I was younger and the cost of a Laser was a major investment for me, I was heartbroken when my hull became uncompetitive. I couldn't afford a new boat so that was the end of competition for me. I loved the boat and it taught me so much. :(

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1. Can we please kill the notion that the new top section is carbon.  It's COMPOSITE, and while there is some carbon in the laminate, calling it carbon is far from the truth.  There is no possible way you can get carbon to weigh the same and replicate the properties of aluminum.

2. Other than sails, what other spare parts are we having such a hard time getting?  I've never struggled to get any parts from APS, West Coast or Collie and I know the life expectancy of my sail.  The next one is on order far in advance of needing it.  Spars?  Anyone who regularly sails a Laser should have a backup set of spars.  They break and you never know when you are going to need them.  PM me if you think otherwise and i'll gladly prove you wrong by finding you the part you need.

3. On the availability of boats...  The big dealers all have boats.  Used event boats (where just the hull and spars were used for a few events are even more plentiful and a pretty good deal ~$6k)are even more plentiful.  You might have to drive a little to get them, but that's what makes the Laser so great.  It'll transport on the roof of a Civic.

That said, there is a new trend of folks importing PS Austrailia boats to the US as they claim the boats are more durable and last longer.  I have heard that group buys will get you a brand new boat landed to the States for $9k.  Still cheaper than an RS AERO.

The Laser Midwinters East in Clearwater have 138 boats currently registered.  AERO had 25 at the Midwinters in West Palm.

Biased opinion, Laser is far from dead.  

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Wasn't there a rule that 'prohibited' importation of a Laser built by a builder 'from the outside'? Example: importing a Laser built in Australia into LP 'territory'?

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1 minute ago, Wavedancer II said:

Wasn't there a rule that 'prohibited' importation of a Laser built by a builder 'from the outside'? Example: importing a Laser built in Australia into LP 'territory'?

That was my understanding. Enforcement may be sporadic and selective, though.

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I have done more to organize and promote Laser and Sunfish sailing in Texas than LP. It is possible I could honestly extend that claim to all of North America. 

It makes no sense for me to continue to voluntarily exert more promotional and support effort than those who financially benefit from selling their product. 

I am not abandoning Lasers and Sunfish, my game is being abandoned by the builder of the  boats used to play my game. 

 

No Texas dealer has been able to consistently stock Sunfish or Laser parts in the last couple years. 

When members of my fleet cannot walkinto a store somewhere within 1000 miles and buy equipment and boats we have a problem. 

We race Sailboats. We used to play a game in one design Lasers and Sunfish and most of the reason the game was happening was:

 anybody could just walk into a store and buy a full speed toy that was exactly like the one used by the world champion. 

ANYBODY!!!

Today that purchase is nearly impossible to make in North America and absolutely impossible to make in Texas.

Could  the builder’s of Lasers and Sunfish decide to go back into business??  Perhaps. It certainly seems to me they have a clientele chomping at the bit for  toys.

currently there is no evidence LP wants to sell their wares in Texas.

texans currently have a choice:

Sail old boats with old sails and old spars and old boom and traveler blocks

 Buy another brand of boat and build a new fleet. 

I hope the new fleet of AEROs experiences a great boom and many sailors enjoy playing in AEROs.

i would also love to see thousands of new Lasers and Sunfish  show up at Texas regattas. 

Currently only one of the three fleets has a stocking dealer within 1000 miles of my home club. 

I cannot successfully promote unobtanium... I am being forced to consider the purchase of a new boat so I can play in what may soon be the only remaining one design fleet 

Note: if LP sets up a few stocking Texas dealers, sends a factory support team and a good sized fleet of Charter boats to both the 35th Easter Laser Regatta and the Women’s Sunfish North Americans, and continues to PROMPTLY fill restocking orders from dealers in Houston, Austin, and Dallas, I will sing their praises loud and enthusiastically.

If they continue to do less I will continue to bitch about their piss poor performance as a supplier of our play toys and I will continue to seek out a better alternative supplier.

and

i will throw my enthusiastic support and promotion at whatever singlehanded game looks most likely to serve my interest in racing one design Sailboat racing. 

I AM GOING TO RACE IN THE LARGEST AVAILABLE FLEET. That will happen with it without LP.

 

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4 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

Wasn't there a rule that 'prohibited' importation of a Laser built by a builder 'from the outside'? Example: importing a Laser built in Australia into LP 'territory'?

Commercial importation supposedly breaks some sort of regional copyright agreement. 

Individuals can buy anything they damn well please from anywhere they damn well please and Sail their toys wherever and when we they feel the desire to do so. 

As the Aussie boats are 199% Class legal and built according to the same construction manual an the unobtainable LP product, there is little reason either boat should be banned from competition. 

A reasonable case could be made:

New sails and composite top sections should be banned from North American Competitions until there is an adequate supply to allow for one design racing. 

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11 hours ago, fufkin said:

Hopefully that's a joke.

An old Laser with non-stock parts is far from outliving it's usefulness as a cottage boat, donation boat to community sailing etc. 

It's a great boat to give a kid a first look at sailing. Perfect learning platform for anyone.

Took out a cottage neighbour wakeboard kid last season and he had an absolute blast.

Throwing one in a landfill because you can't find class-approved parts?...come on man!

satan himself is that old has been troll from Texas with dozens of socks on this site 

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18 hours ago, bridhb said:

Crap, I just bought and old laser....hopefully intensity will keep supplying "practice" parts, don't really care if they are "approved"

Oh stop. Assuming you are over the age of 12 you can or should be able figure this out for yourself. The thread is a troll. As many have said here it’s easy to find and race a Laser. Or keep a beater going for play time. It ain’t perfect but it really ain’t hard. What is hard is finding something better. Que more trolls and planer boards. Lots of lines in the water and lots of stinky socks to dodge and fish out.

Just go sailing! 

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Yes!! It is simple for an experienced boat owner to find an old piece of shit Laser or Sunfish that is just fine for use in local Wednesday night fifteen minute races. 

The problem in my part of the world is the supply of new sailors who have bought new boats at the dealership is absent. The supply of damn Fine boats not quite good enough for traveling racers who like to buy brand new ones every couple years has dried up.

The Easter  Laser Regatta That used to draw seventy to eighty five boats every year is struggling to draw forty. 

The Wednesday night Fleet that used to have fifty Sunfish and Lasers is regularly drawing only about thirty boats.

We NEED an enthusiastic reliable supplier of relatively inexpensive BRAND NEW singlehanded Sailboats in our state whose population of over 28,000,000 people. Our community is growing at the rate of 140 prosperous people with great jobs every single day. Many would love to come play in our Sailboat races but there simply are no toys.

the new potential sailors are not experienced boat repairmen. Most don’t have tools. 

But... They do have lots of extra money they could be spending on Sailboats IF THERE WERE PRETTY  NEW TOYS AVAILABLE.

Dont give me your fucking troll Shit!! You asshats don’t have a clue what it takes to create and manage Sailboat fleets. I have been the guy keeping Austin Laser racing alive and vibrant for the last forty years and the lack of new toys is destroying everything I worked so hard to create.

i am cussing the goddamned jackasses from LP because they are holding my game hostage and jerking thousands of my friends and potential friends off the race course. 

We didn’t have our usual fleet buy AGAIN this year in either the Sunfish or Laser Fleet. LP REFUSES TO SELL THEIR PRODUCT!!!  Beginners are not getting one of my old boats AGAIN this year. 

On a typical Wednesday night you can count five of my former boats on the starting line. We used to have eight of those. Last year we chopped up the remains of five old hand me down boats but we didn’t get a single  brand new boat!!  LP REFUSES TO SELL THEIR PRODUCT IN NORTH AMERICA!!! 

One of our regulars lost his boat in Hurricane Harvey. HE CANT BUY A REPLACEMENT WITH HIS INSURANCE MONEY BECAUSE THERE ARENT ANY!!!! 

Me? A troll?? Fuck you!! I am hosting a Regatta in a few weeks for the 35th consecutive year in aFleet of boats we have pasted together from garbage found at estate sales and abandoned in marinas. LP HAS NEVER OFFERED A SCINTILLA OF SUPPORT FIR THE EASTER LASER REGATTA!!!! 

We need an enthusiastic builder of brand new affordable singlehanded sailing toys.

 Currently the only company seriously attempting to supply the singlehanded sailing game is RS. 

LP seems interested only in being in control, has no interest in selling product, and absolutely has no history of EVER working to nourish the racing game. 

We just had a planning meeting for the women’s Sunfish North American’s. There was discussion about the t shirt design and we were reminded LP WONT LET US USE THE SUNFISH LOGO TO PROMOTE USE OF THEIR PRODUCT IN OUR GAMES. 

REALLY?

i mean seriously??

They don’t want us hosting any events for Sunfish© 

I don’t give a rat’s patootie if we race bathtubs with shower curtain rods stuck in the drain holes,  shower curtains for sails and toilet seat covers as lee boards.... As long as the game is one design contests with 100 boats at the club and 50 out on Wednesday night we will have a great time both on the water and in the restaurant after the sailing.

We need a supplier!! We need boat dealers who stock our toys!! 

LP has killed that essential part of our game.

AERO really really wants in. The absolute only drawback to AERO is the five years it will take to fill the supply line from brand new to available used.

SOMEBODY has to be accepted and supported by those of us who have been abandoned by LP.

There are no new Lasers or Sunfish available. LP refuses to sell their product. We have to do SOMETHING or there will be no game for anybody in 2020.

i have no problem with jumping on the AERO bandwagon if for no other reason than buying and racing an AERO beats quitting. 

Troll?? There may be trolls in this thread but none of them has been relentlessly dragging sailors out to play for the last forty years. 

Let’s get that AERO Fleet going!!!! 

 

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

Oh stop. Assuming you are over the age of 12 you can or should be able figure this out for yourself. The thread is a troll. As many have said here it’s easy to find and race a Laser. Or keep a beater going for play time. It ain’t perfect but it really ain’t hard. What is hard is finding something better. Que more trolls and planer boards. Lots of lines in the water and lots of stinky socks to dodge and fish out.

Just go sailing! 

Yeah, I am so far over the age of 12 that I hope to sail it a couple of years before I am sitting in the assisted living home dribbling oatmeal.  Sorry, not familiar with boa trolls.  Just ordered some parts needed to get it in the water from intensity.

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On 2018-02-16 at 11:02 AM, Satan Himself said:

As dealers have sold off their remaining stock many have decided to sell AEROs or other lines of sporting equipment. Central Texas former dealer now sells auto parts and general hardware. Houston’s dealer has been vigorously promoting the AERO and other RS brand boats.

Former customers of the former North American Sunfish /Laser factory are either scavenging parts from old boats or switching to sailing in the very well promoted and supported AERO class boat. 

One design Sunfish and Laser Sailing In North America is pretty much a thing of the past.

Maybe the AERO will replace them both.

I suggest you Sail it as is or take your Laser to the landfill and buy an AERO

Could you say AERO a few more times, just in case anyone missed your sales talk?

On 2018-02-16 at 3:05 PM, Somebody Else said:

I see one thing and one thing only that's wrong with the Laser (aside from inflated cost for new boats and the horrible supply issue in the United States):

The hulls don't stay competitive.

That's the long and short of it. They become soft and flexible with a year of hard sailing. When I was younger and the cost of a Laser was a major investment for me, I was heartbroken when my hull became uncompetitive. 

Same thing could be said of the 470. :(

If it wasn't for their Olympic status, one wonders whether either boat would have enjoyed half as much popularity.

On 2018-02-17 at 12:10 PM, Gouvernail said:

I don’t give a rat’s patootie if we race bathtubs with shower curtain rods stuck in the drain holes,  shower curtains for sails and toilet seat covers as lee boards.... As long as the game is one design contests with 100 boats at the club and 50 out on Wednesday night we will have a great time both on the water and in the restaurant after the sailing.

+1.

Perhaps you should take a look at the Mirror: an international class, seaworthy, fun, inexpensive (can be homebuilt), and car-toppable.

9815852.jpg?416

 

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Perhaps someone who wishes to manufacture and sell singlehanded Sailboats should look at the available market. 

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On 2/17/2018 at 11:10 AM, Gouvernail said:

Yes!! It is simple for an experienced boat owner to find an old piece of shit Laser or Sunfish that is just fine for use in local Wednesday night fifteen minute races. 

The problem in my part of the world is the supply of new sailors who have bought new boats at the dealership is absent. The supply of damn Fine boats not quite good enough for traveling racers who like to buy brand new ones every couple years has dried up.

The Easter  Laser Regatta That used to draw seventy to eighty five boats every year is struggling to draw forty. 

The Wednesday night Fleet that used to have fifty Sunfish and Lasers is regularly drawing only about thirty boats.

We NEED an enthusiastic reliable supplier of relatively inexpensive BRAND NEW singlehanded Sailboats in our state whose population of over 28,000,000 people. Our community is growing at the rate of 140 prosperous people with great jobs every single day. Many would love to come play in our Sailboat races but there simply are no toys.

the new potential sailors are not experienced boat repairmen. Most don’t have tools. 

But... They do have lots of extra money they could be spending on Sailboats IF THERE WERE PRETTY  NEW TOYS AVAILABLE.

Dont give me your fucking troll Shit!! You asshats don’t have a clue what it takes to create and manage Sailboat fleets. I have been the guy keeping Austin Laser racing alive and vibrant for the last forty years and the lack of new toys is destroying everything I worked so hard to create.

i am cussing the goddamned jackasses from LP because they are holding my game hostage and jerking thousands of my friends and potential friends off the race course. 

We didn’t have our usual fleet buy AGAIN this year in either the Sunfish or Laser Fleet. LP REFUSES TO SELL THEIR PRODUCT!!!  Beginners are not getting one of my old boats AGAIN this year. 

On a typical Wednesday night you can count five of my former boats on the starting line. We used to have eight of those. Last year we chopped up the remains of five old hand me down boats but we didn’t get a single  brand new boat!!  LP REFUSES TO SELL THEIR PRODUCT IN NORTH AMERICA!!! 

One of our regulars lost his boat in Hurricane Harvey. HE CANT BUY A REPLACEMENT WITH HIS INSURANCE MONEY BECAUSE THERE ARENT ANY!!!! 

Me? A troll?? Fuck you!! I am hosting a Regatta in a few weeks for the 35th consecutive year in aFleet of boats we have pasted together from garbage found at estate sales and abandoned in marinas. LP HAS NEVER OFFERED A SCINTILLA OF SUPPORT FIR THE EASTER LASER REGATTA!!!! 

We need an enthusiastic builder of brand new affordable singlehanded sailing toys.

 Currently the only company seriously attempting to supply the singlehanded sailing game is RS. 

LP seems interested only in being in control, has no interest in selling product, and absolutely has no history of EVER working to nourish the racing game. 

We just had a planning meeting for the women’s Sunfish North American’s. There was discussion about the t shirt design and we were reminded LP WONT LET US USE THE SUNFISH LOGO TO PROMOTE USE OF THEIR PRODUCT IN OUR GAMES. 

REALLY?

i mean seriously??

They don’t want us hosting any events for Sunfish© 

I don’t give a rat’s patootie if we race bathtubs with shower curtain rods stuck in the drain holes,  shower curtains for sails and toilet seat covers as lee boards.... As long as the game is one design contests with 100 boats at the club and 50 out on Wednesday night we will have a great time both on the water and in the restaurant after the sailing.

We need a supplier!! We need boat dealers who stock our toys!! 

LP has killed that essential part of our game.

AERO really really wants in. The absolute only drawback to AERO is the five years it will take to fill the supply line from brand new to available used.

SOMEBODY has to be accepted and supported by those of us who have been abandoned by LP.

There are no new Lasers or Sunfish available. LP refuses to sell their product. We have to do SOMETHING or there will be no game for anybody in 2020.

i have no problem with jumping on the AERO bandwagon if for no other reason than buying and racing an AERO beats quitting. 

Troll?? There may be trolls in this thread but none of them has been relentlessly dragging sailors out to play for the last forty years. 

Let’s get that AERO Fleet going!!!! 

 

Sounds like you Austin folks need to band together and buy a container full of boats from PSA like the Florida bunch did.

Gouv, I respect all that you have done for the Laser class over the years, but I think you are making a few apocalyptic claims that just aren't true.

 

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I did the masters event in Jensen beach.  This class is so far from dead.... With a few phone calls you can find class parts, (not really from APS though and not sure why, but been that way for over a year now) West Coast sailing always seems to have what you need.  Sturgis is pretty good too.  The new solid white boats are sweet.  There were several at the event. 

Sailing older boats can still be competitive.  I'm in a 2001 hull and do very well in our district, (prior to the 2001 boat I sailed a '98 and a '99 hull for several years with no issues).  The event in FL was a bit of an eye opener for me, but my speed issue had nothing to do with my boat...

There's over 210,000 boats out there.  That doesn't just evaporate.  I'll keep my $3,000.00 package.  Not ready to spend $10k on a single hander when I can buy a nice J24 for the same price. 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Svanen said:

Same thing could be said of the 470. :(

If it wasn't for their Olympic status, one wonders whether either boat would have enjoyed half as much popularity.

 

 

The Laser wasn't selected for the olympics until 1996.  Meaning the first 24 years of existance and 150000 hulls sold were done without their help.  

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Wait. What?  Where am I and what is with all this logic, truth, and reality in a Laser thread!!??

Long live the Laser (or a generic equivalent)!!

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The Laser is by no means dead, if you're having trouble finding class legal parts then it seems that you're just not putting in enough effort.

 

With that being said, what Laser Performance has done and continues to do to the North American Laser class is an embarrassment to the sport of sailing.  Bill Crane, who is a lifelong sailor and member of Noroton YC (Bruce Kirby's home club) working for Dory Ventures and acting as President and Chairman of LP, has allowed greed and stupidity to harm the class in a meaningful way.  I knew Bill a while back, and in my opinion he is one of the worst people on and off the water.  The rest of the Crane family are terrific people, so I'm not entirely sure how that happened.

 

That RS Aero is cool, but I just don't see it having the same staying power as the Laser.

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On 2/16/2018 at 8:56 PM, Wavedancer II said:

Wasn't there a rule that 'prohibited' importation of a Laser built by a builder 'from the outside'? Example: importing a Laser built in Australia into LP 'territory'?

The "Laser" and Starburst logo are copyright protected. No one may use them without Laser Performance permission. This means that other entities can sell boats into the US without LPs permission. Which will never be granted.  However there is no restriction on customers buying out of the protected region.  So if you want to buy a boat from Australia and import it, nothing can stop you. But if you buy 6 boats and resell them, you will be in violation of copyright law.

SHC

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On 2/16/2018 at 9:31 AM, Rum Runner said:

I don't think the strollers killed anyone. They just chopped off a few fingers.

 

less than 1/2 lb

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On 2/17/2018 at 9:10 AM, Gouvernail said:

 

 

Troll?? There may be trolls in this thread but none of them has been relentlessly dragging sailors out to play for the last forty years. 

Let’s get that AERO Fleet going!!!! 

 

Oh my  not another 150 boat Laser regatta with a bunch of late model boats racing and a bunch of  nice new sails and other parts throughout the fleet.

 

http://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/applet_regatta_results.php?regatta_id=15457

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TOO bad LP doesn’t do business in the great state of Texas. 

Life would be much simpler for me if I could just continue HELPING OUR TEXAS DEALERS promote Lasers 

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Not sure they want your help 

 

Availability: Accepting Orders

https://www.kosailing.com/rs-aero.html

 

Availability: Accepting Orders

https://www.kosailing.com/laser-radial-xd.html

 

http://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/applet_regatta_results.php?regatta_id=15454

41 laser, 18 Sunfish,  7?

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@VWAP

You are one clueless mofo. 

I have sailed on the Regatta you listed every year since 1979 and have generally dragged my five boat trailer to the Event.

The shoreside conversations included a lot of discussions whose content was:

We have a ton of interested prospects and no boats !! 

KO Sailing hasn’t had Lasers in stock on over two years and has shifted focus to the AERO.

and KO very much wants me to work on building an Austin fleet. 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

@VWAP

You are one clueless mofo. 

I have sailed on the Regatta you listed every year since 1979 and have generally dragged my five boat trailer to the Event.

The shoreside conversations included a lot of discussions whose content was:

We have a ton of interested prospects and no boats !! 

KO Sailing hasn’t had Lasers in stock on over two years and has shifted focus to the AERO.

and KO very much wants me to work on building an Austin fleet. 

 

 

 

 

KO has Aero's in stock?

 You are a representative of KO?

All you got left is name calling. 

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2 hours ago, VWAP said:

KO has Aero's in stock?(yes)

 You are a representative of KO?  (No)

All you got left is name calling. (See below)

Where did I call anybody a name??

i described your lack of knowledge and proceeded to refute your ignorant post point by point. 

My writings, speech, and actions over the last fifty years clearly establish my claim as one who sincerely cares about having one design and especially singlehanded sailing as an available game for whoever cares to be involved.

Currently and for the last few years, the business practices of LP have, according to me, been more destructive than nurturing to the game I love to play. 

The posts here by @VWAP seem to be expressing some sort of suggestion my complaints about LP are unfounded and your writings even have an air of personal attack. 

What is your point! What is your goal? Are you opposed to having boat dealers who stock toys for Texans to play games in singlehanded Sailboats? If so, could you please admit that here and explain why?

 

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41 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Where did I call anybody a name??

...

 

Gouvernail I understand you have and continue to make a material contribution to sailing. I respect you for that. With that respect in mind let me answer your question for you.

"Where did I call anybody a name??"

In post 37 you wrote: “@VWAP  You are one clueless mofo.”

Many people would consider that name calling.

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3 hours ago, KC375 said:

Gouvernail I understand you have and continue to make a material contribution to sailing. I respect you for that. With that respect in mind let me answer your question for you.

 

"Where did I call anybody a name??"

 

In post 37 you wrote: “@VWAP  You are one clueless mofo.”

 

Many people would consider that name calling.

 

And I am standing by the weak technicality that I called him

VWAP and You in that sentence and clueless mofo was a description. 

 

Consider this:

Had I written “Knowledgeable inseminator” I don’t believe anyone would have called it “namecalling.”

 

Regardless... my accusation, stated as fact, he has sex with female parents was out of line and uncalled for. 

I shouldn’t have gone so low 

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

And I am standing by the weak technicality that I called him

VWAP and You in that sentence and clueless mofo was a description. 

 

 

Regardless... my accusation, stated as fact, he has sex with female parents

 

This is a keeper

 

 

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

And I am standing by the weak technicality that I called him

VWAP and You in that sentence and clueless mofo was a description. 

 

Consider this:

Had I written “Knowledgeable inseminator” I don’t believe anyone would have called it “namecalling.”

 

Regardless... my accusation, stated as fact, he has sex with female parents was out of line and uncalled for. 

I shouldn’t have gone so low 

You need serious help 

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2 hours ago, VWAP said:

You need serious help 

That is what I have been saying!!! Nobody can build a great sailing fleet by himself!!! 

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Delusional 

 

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

Delusional 

 

@VWAP

Exactly what is your objective?? 

You are lambasting me with personal attacks because I am “disappointed” with the lack of availability of singlehanded sailing toys in Texas. 

Do you  FAVOR keeping the 30,000,000 Texans without a supply of new boats and parts?

Do you believe Texans should not have available sailing toys of any sort?

The Laser United States National Championships will be held in Texas in a few months. Do you favor making certain there are no new boats or parts available in Texas so Texans can easily  equip themselves to compete in the event they are hosting?

Finally. What is your long term plan with your personal harassment? How do you suppose such behavior will end well? 

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5 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

@VWAP

Exactly what is your objective?? 

You are lambasting me with personal attacks because I am “disappointed” with the lack of availability of singlehanded sailing toys in Texas. 

Do you  FAVOR keeping the 30,000,000 Texans without a supply of new boats and parts?

Do you believe Texans should not have available sailing toys of any sort?

The Laser United States National Championships will be held in Texas in a few months. Do you favor making certain there are no new boats or parts available in Texas so Texans can easily  equip themselves to compete in the event they are hosting?

Finally. What is your long term plan with your personal harassment? How do you suppose such behavior will end well? 

Personally, I am in favor of kicking Texas out of the union. They act like a separate county most of the time anyways.

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5 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

@VWAP

Exactly what is your objective?? 

You are lambasting me with personal attacks because I am “disappointed” with the lack of availability of singlehanded sailing toys in Texas. 

Do you  FAVOR keeping the 30,000,000 Texans without a supply of new boats and parts?

Do you believe Texans should not have available sailing toys of any sort?

The Laser United States National Championships will be held in Texas in a few months. Do you favor making certain there are no new boats or parts available in Texas so Texans can easily  equip themselves to compete in the event they are hosting?

Finally. What is your long term plan with your personal harassment? How do you suppose such behavior will end well? 

If there are truly 30 million Texans looking for single-handed boats and parts with no dealers to be seen, this seems like a serious business opportunity.

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20 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

Personally, I am in favor of kicking Texas out of the union. They act like a separate county most of the time anyways.

Although I share feelings with those who  find the Texas bragging garbage to be moronic and annoying, I am confining my discussion here to sailing and LP’s detrimental influence on the Sailboat racing game. 

   We need a reliable supply of new toys and parts for those toys. 

    I believe the singlehanded sailboat racing game needs to be conducted in well promoted and available toys. By refusing to sell product to Texas Dealers, LP is severely hampering our ability to play games in Lasers and Sunfish. 

My concern is this assault on our game is unlikely to end soon and I am among  those who are willing to begin the extraordinary task of changing over to new and different “official toys of the game.”

Currently I see two options:

1. Do nothing and watch Sailboat racing wither and die.

2. Pick another toy and promote the hell out of it. 

I haven’t yet bought an AERO. I am currently gathering together a team to host an Easter weekend Laser Regatta. I will do my very best to make that Regatta wonderfully fun and a great very competitive game. 

But

It will be contested in old tired toys. Only five of the new composite top sections have EVER been shipped to dealers within 1000 miles of the event site. No one within 1000 miles has new sails in stock. No one  within 1000 miles has new Lasers in stock.,

A little over s month after the Regatta I am hosting, the US National Laser Championships  will be held in Houston. 

What kind of promotional pitch is this?

Let’s all take our old worn out toys down to Houston and race against people who will bring their new competitive equipment !!

 

We need to play our game in toys built by suppliers who eagerly sell their product and also SUPPORT our game. 

LP has shown ZERO interest in being that supplier. 

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24 minutes ago, Looper said:

If there are truly 30 million Texans looking for single-handed boats and parts with no dealers to be seen, this seems like a serious business opportunity.

Well duh!! If only one in a million decide to buy, there will be 30 people who need something other than a LP Laser or Sunfish. 

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It seems that logic has left the building.  Followed soon the by the purging of the posts.  It all feels a bit like...

 

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19 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Well duh!! If only one in a million decide to buy, there will be 30 people who need something other than a LP Laser or Sunfish. 

Gouvernail it seems to me if you are willing to forgo the Laser branding you can get new equivalent all you need except new hulls.

So it seems you need two things:

1.       Get your local (and over time larger) group of Laser sailors to agree they care more about the game than the brand. Get them to agree to welcome lasers and boats that measure like a laser to their regattas.

2.       A group of you splash a mold from a laser and start building Torchs (to really rub it in for LP send Bruce Kirby a reasonable per boat fee). Given progress in materials and methods you should be able to produce a product that performs the same as a new minimum weight laser – and keeps that performance for longer.

Everybody but LP wins. Laser sailors have renewed fleets with level/OD competition even if mixed “brands”.

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9 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Although I share feelings with those who  find the Texas bragging garbage to be moronic and annoying, I am confining my discussion here to sailing and LP’s detrimental influence on the Sailboat racing game. 

   We need a reliable supply of new toys and parts for those toys. 

    I believe the singlehanded sailboat racing game needs to be conducted in well promoted and available toys. By refusing to sell product to Texas Dealers, LP is severely hampering our ability to play games in Lasers and Sunfish. 

My concern is this assault on our game is unlikely to end soon and I am among  those who are willing to begin the extraordinary task of changing over to new and different “official toys of the game.”

Currently I see two options:

1. Do nothing and watch Sailboat racing wither and die.

2. Pick another toy and promote the hell out of it. 

I haven’t yet bought an AERO. I am currently gathering together a team to host an Easter weekend Laser Regatta. I will do my very best to make that Regatta wonderfully fun and a great very competitive game. 

But

It will be contested in old tired toys. Only five of the new composite top sections have EVER been shipped to dealers within 1000 miles of the event site. No one within 1000 miles has new sails in stock. No one  within 1000 miles has new Lasers in stock.,

A little over s month after the Regatta I am hosting, the US National Laser Championships  will be held in Houston. 

What kind of promotional pitch is this?

Let’s all take our old worn out toys down to Houston and race against people who will bring their new competitive equipment !!

 

We need to play our game in toys built by suppliers who eagerly sell their product and also SUPPORT our game. 

LP has shown ZERO interest in being that supplier. 

Gouv, I live in Chicago, a metropolis of roughly 9.5 million people.  We don't have a Laser dealer at all.  Our closest "dealers" are 3+ hours away.  Somehow we still get new boats, composite top sections, sails, foils, blocks, mainsheets, compasses, etc.  

We manage just fine doing group buys, keeping extra spares around, and working with far-away dealers (Sturgis, West Coast, Collie, etc) to help us get by.  It isn't hard.

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1 hour ago, Looper said:

 

We manage just fine doing group buys, keeping extra spares around, and working with far-away dealers (Sturgis, West Coast, Collie, etc) to help us get by.  It isn't hard.

Don't waste your time. I heard many rumors about the ILCANA . There are a few that, well lets see, oh, blow a lot of smoke to inflate their importance. Some are just nasty . Very unfortunate for the class and sailing in general. 

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2 hours ago, Looper said:

Gouv, I live in Chicago, a metropolis of roughly 9.5 million people.  We don't have a Laser dealer at all.  Our closest "dealers" are 3+ hours away.  Somehow we still get new boats, composite top sections, sails, foils, blocks, mainsheets, compasses, etc.  

We manage just fine doing group buys, keeping extra spares around, and working with far-away dealers (Sturgis, West Coast, Collie, etc) to help us get by.  It isn't hard.

We have had years with an active supportive local dealer, years with a dealer who had boats if we wanted them, years with no local dealer but an enthusiastic dealer 250 miles away, and, recently, three dealers in the state who have struggle to get inventory and two of them have pretty much given up.

Out fleet BOOMS when we have a local supportive dealer.

Certainly we CAN, do alternative things to continue to contest a game held exclusively using a product built my a manufacturer who refuses to sell toys in our market.

Am I really The only one who thinks that is utterly absurd?? 

Shouldn't we do business with companies who support our game?? 

 

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3 hours ago, KC375 said:

Gouvernail it seems to me if you are willing to forgo the Laser branding you can get new equivalent all you need except new hulls.

So it seems you need two things:

1.       Get your local (and over time larger) group of Laser sailors to agree they care more about the game than the brand. Get them to agree to welcome lasers and boats that measure like a laser to their regattas.

2.       A group of you splash a mold from a laser and start building Torchs (to really rub it in for LP send Bruce Kirby a reasonable per boat fee). Given progress in materials and methods you should be able to produce a product that performs the same as a new minimum weight laser – and keeps that performance for longer.

Everybody but LP wins. Laser sailors have renewed fleets with level/OD competition even if mixed “brands”.

If I had a couple hundred grand I totally did not need and could put at risk, I might make a few “just like a Laser” generic boats. 

Before doing such a thing I would try to get a Sunfish / Laser dealership. Considering the LP history, There would have to be a contract with SEVERE penalties if LP failed to fill orders within clearly defined  time limits. 

Something like an agreement I could fill orders with boats from the Australian builder and LP would be responsible for the cost of shipping and rebate any difference in price. 

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There are many boat classes who do well without a well established manufacturer. The Laser and Sunfish classes will have to adapt over time by finding parts suppliers that meet their needs without going through LP.  One of these days hulls will become available again as well.  My guess is that eventually LP will have to reach a compromise or they will miss out on major sales opportunities. 

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I appreciate Gouvernail's contributions.  For those that have not met him, please understand he is the real deal and has worked his tail off to promote Laser sailing.

However, as mentioned earlier in this thread, one of the Laser's big issues, is that the hulls don't last long.  I understand, that if you can get one, that new bare laser hull goes for $4,699 plus freight.  To have to spend another $4,700 every few years for what should be an inexpensive one design class is ridiculous.  Old used Laser hulls are pretty much worthless.   The $4,700 does not include $600 a year for a new sail, plus all the travel expenses etc.  That assumes you have the $2 to 3 thousand of other parts required that thankfully last much longer.  Many will say that it is still cheap, it should be but it is not.  It adds up.  Sure sailing can be outrageously expensive, but that was supposed to be the whole point of one design.  Years ago some guy figured out how to make a boat out of two sheets of plywood so lots of kids could learn how.  At least there is competition for the Opti class among builders.  I think it's too bad there is not a similar structure for Lasers where lots of companies were allowed to build.  LP could just charge a royalty and just collect checks.  An opti hull still costs about $3,000, but it will last for a long time. 

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Please understand this: 

Tha Laser is not super simple to build. 

The creation of a complete boat is not a simple, any minimum wage bozo, job. 

The distribution and marketing costs are absurd. 

Of all small Sailboats, ONLY the Laser and Sunfish have a reliable “somebody will buy a few hundred every year” market. 

No other Sailboat building enterprise comes with that  guarantee.

no rational person will “just start building boats like Lasers or Sunfish” until the people who regulate the racing games decide to allow toys manufactured by someone other than the entity who is allowed to use the Laser Logo and Name. 

Sone days I think about building a set of molds for generic boats just like Sunfish or Lasers.

I am not excited about the following being said:

Gouv builds some boats just like Lasers and Sunfish. They are indistinguishable in every way from the trademarked boats but you cannot use them in the real races. 

Further:

If I were building such a boat there would be a problem for ANYONE from around here whose  boat showed up at a big Regatta.... Is that a Gouv boat? How do we know? 

I can already imagine  the shitfights and I do not want EVER again to be involved with asinine nonsense when Laser sailirs decide to take sides and have a shitfight. 

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, HookEm said:

I appreciate Gouvernail's contributions.  For those that have not met him, please understand he is the real deal and has worked his tail off to promote Laser sailing.

However, as mentioned earlier in this thread, one of the Laser's big issues, is that the hulls don't last long.  I understand, that if you can get one, that new bare laser hull goes for $4,699 plus freight.  To have to spend another $4,700 every few years for what should be an inexpensive one design class is ridiculous.  Old used Laser hulls are pretty much worthless.   The $4,700 does not include $600 a year for a new sail, plus all the travel expenses etc.  That assumes you have the $2 to 3 thousand of other parts required that thankfully last much longer.  Many will say that it is still cheap, it should be but it is not.  It adds up.  Sure sailing can be outrageously expensive, but that was supposed to be the whole point of one design.  Years ago some guy figured out how to make a boat out of two sheets of plywood so lots of kids could learn how.  At least there is competition for the Opti class among builders.  I think it's too bad there is not a similar structure for Lasers where lots of companies were allowed to build.  LP could just charge a royalty and just collect checks.  An opti hull still costs about $3,000, but it will last for a long time. 

The way I see it, anyone who plays above the level of casual racer should be on a 3 year refresh if you have a boat you sail regularly.

Scenario 1:  You buy a new boat and run it as long as you can.  The problem is, after 3 years there are certain "consumables" on any sailboat.  Sails get old, Foils get banged up and the UV and conditions destroys covers, and control lines.   The basic 3 year costs break down as:

Sail replacement: $600

Foils: $500

Covers: $400

Lines: $100

To me, that's $1600

This doesn't even figure in if you have to replace a spar section in this time.

 

Scenario 2:

A new event boat is roughly $6000.  Most sellers can easily sell a 3YO boat for $4500 if it's in the expected condition for a boat of that age.  This means the delta to upgrade to a new boat is $1500.

So, every 3 years, you can either spend $1600 and keep sailing your old boat, or for $1500 you can get one that's pretty much new everything.  Nobody that's even remotely serious about Laser sailing should be complaining about build quality on a boat that you never have for more than 3 years.  

 

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20 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

We have had years with an active supportive local dealer, years with a dealer who had boats if we wanted them, years with no local dealer but an enthusiastic dealer 250 miles away, and, recently, three dealers in the state who have struggle to get inventory and two of them have pretty much given up.

Out fleet BOOMS when we have a local supportive dealer.

Certainly we CAN, do alternative things to continue to contest a game held exclusively using a product built my a manufacturer who refuses to sell toys in our market.

Am I really The only one who thinks that is utterly absurd?? 

Shouldn't we do business with companies who support our game?? 

 

I honestly think that we Laser guys have had it too easy for far too long.  With the exception of any of the new "Start-ups",  name one other fleet that gets the builder involvement you've come to expect (Melges and RS are good examples - I fully expect builder/dealer support to die for both in the next 5 years.  Don't believe me?  Tell me again how involved Melges gets at a OD Melges 32 event or what dealer stocks parts.).

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Gotta day the 32 is not targeting the “every person who has a job  can afford one ” market. 

Yes... I wish we could get another boom rolling where various companies are trying to build “that boat everybody can afford.”

in the early seventies I was positive the Singjehsnded sailing game would soon have its own official boat like Soccer has balls and goals. Pretty much every sport has settled in one official set of toys ... except sailing. 

On  the one hand we all agree to okay without using the internal combustion engine or electronic assistance..

On the other hand we all keep abandoning perfectly good fleets of perfectly good play toys to jump to the next slightly better thing. 

I keep hoping somebody will spend the $20,000,000 it would take to jumpstart a replacement for the Laser and pretty much kill off all singlehanded competition. 

The technology's certainly there to manufacture and distribute a $2000 durable toy that does everything as well or better than a Laser. 

Part of the necessary formula is mass production. 

The problem is the investment must be made gambling the boat will actually be “THE ONE.”

i am convinced I know how but I forgot to make a few million bucks when I was younger. 

 

 

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