Cape_taco12

3DI (Raw) and roller furler storage longevity

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Have a new 3DI raw jib on the way to replace the old string sail on my J80. Now I know that storing the previous generations for an extended time on the furler diminished it’s life and performance. 

Curious what experience has been with the newer Raw for small boats. Obviously storing it down below with no tension is a far better option.  But putting a headsail on and off single handed in the typical wind velocity here is a pain. The condom is much easier in a breeze. The big boat stuff seems to have a decent reputation think this will apply to lighter cloth?

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I have a 3di in a sock; was told that is fine (by the North rep)

Just release the halyard tension a smidge before furling.

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It's definitely better to take it down as often as you can because it will definitely affect the life of the sail over time but to what degree depends on what you value.  If you're looking to be at the top of the fleet everyday, every race and your job and income depend on it then you need to take the sail down and store it in a climate controlled environment.   Then there's the other 99% of us who fall somewhere between set and forget cruising and competitive racing.  Leaving it on the furler should be fine if you're using it often but I'd recommend taking it off if you won't be using it for a few days.  But again, depends on what you value and how competitive you want to be.

3di is the real deal, no marketing gimmick and is as bullet proof as it gets but even 3di degrades and loses shape eventually, just takes a much longer than string sails.  For sure it will last longer off the furler but a significant difference?  Depends I guess.  That 5 or 10  seconds you'll lose someday down the road from sail shape & the cost of replacing it a little earlier vs. the hassle of taking it down all the time.  The socks are great options like Parma mentioned but if your boat lives in a windy slip they can sometimes cause a lot of chafe to the sail if the sock is left flapping around in wind, just something to keep in mind.

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1 hour ago, Hugh Jorgan said:

  The socks are great options like Parma mentioned but if your boat lives in a windy slip they can sometimes cause a lot of chafe to the sail if the sock is left flapping around in wind, just something to keep in mind.

Yes that is true. To prevent that I haul two 90lb  messengers up on one of the spin halyards and wrap one and then the other in opposite directions around the sock, which is fractional. Works really well, and I would even say it is much more secure in a storm than conventional roller furling jibs with UV edging - the wind can't grab it and set up a resonance. Messengers from Home Depot, I think 75' is $5.99 each and I messenger all my halyards (with color coordinated messengers, of course!) anyway, so...... 

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if you can take it off and store it inside (in your house) when not in use, that would be of most benefit, if you are in a colder climate.  If it's warmer where you are and the temperature fluctuations aren't that great then rolling it on the furler and keeping it in the sock with the halyard unloaded should not be any different than taking it down and keeping it below.  In fact you probably do more fatigue damage to the structure taking it down repetitively and inducing cyclic stress in the fabric while it folds on the deck.  Each fold becomes a location that is slightly weaker, and the next drop on deck it's more likely then to fold in the same place making it weaker still.  Also the  repeat of folds will cause shrinkage.

If your venue is windy, and the sail flogs a lot when you take it down, that's probably the biggest killer on the fabric.

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This is a really interesting discussion. 

I have 2 year old 3di jib that looked great when I bought it and still has great shape with no serious damage. It's really floppy at this point and feels like a damp rag when I take it down and roll it - which we do after every race day - and it's gone dark grey rather than solid black. I have sail buttons so I replaced it for serious racing this year with another one, but now I have what seems to be a pretty good backup because it's still stiff in tension along the surface of the sail.

The recommendation to take the sail down and roll it is everyone's favorite, but I agree that it's a pain in the ass when single-handing - especially trying to roll up the floppy thing after a hard day on the water. If I leave it up under a sock per the OP, should i expect physical degradation related to reduced longevity, or shape degradation leading to slowness?

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On 2/16/2018 at 3:48 PM, Parma said:

Yes that is true. To prevent that I haul two 90lb  messengers up on one of the spin halyards and wrap one and then the other in opposite directions around the sock, which is fractional. Works really well, and I would even say it is much more secure in a storm than conventional roller furling jibs with UV edging - the wind can't grab it and set up a resonance. Messengers from Home Depot, I think 75' is $5.99 each and I messenger all my halyards (with color coordinated messengers, of course!) anyway, so...... 

I have a single spin halyard and I have to run the sock on it. I found if I hoist the sock and then put a bunch of twists in it and attack the tack line to the bottom of the sock I can erase all the fluttering except the top 4 inches. With the tension in the sock i will probably have to have it patched along the seams every season or two.

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22 hours ago, Cape_taco12 said:

I have a single spin halyard and I have to run the sock on it. I found if I hoist the sock and then put a bunch of twists in it and attack the tack line to the bottom of the sock I can erase all the fluttering except the top 4 inches. With the tension in the sock i will probably have to have it patched along the seams every season or two.

Just attach a line along with the sock to the spin halyard and hoist both up.  When up take the line you attached ans wrap it around the jib sock all the way down to the deck.  Job done.  BUT - it is still a hard life for a jib to sit like that for longer periods of time - fine a a day or two though.

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I am looking into the same type of jib set up on a similar sized boat.  My North Sails quote calls for a paint on UV cover that matches the 3di color. Rep says likely will need to be reapplied in 2 years depending on use and time in the elements. it should be lighter and less likely to influence the sail shape. Anybody have this treatment on their sails? It would be this or a sock.

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pretty rough on the sail to leave it rolled up vertically - UV protection or not. I think taking it down and flaking it beats leaving it rolled vertically any day. Especially if it has battens in it. 

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43 minutes ago, B dock said:

I am looking into the same type of jib set up on a similar sized boat.  My North Sails quote calls for a paint on UV cover that matches the 3di color. Rep says likely will need to be reapplied in 2 years depending on use and time in the elements. it should be lighter and less likely to influence the sail shape. Anybody have this treatment on their sails? It would be this or a sock.

I saw the paint-on UV on a Doyle Delta jib.  Looked good and is obviously light.  I’d go with it.

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If you do leave it on the forestay, make sure you do a loose downwind furl. The looser the furl the better.

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9 hours ago, B dock said:

I am looking into the same type of jib set up on a similar sized boat.  My North Sails quote calls for a paint on UV cover that matches the 3di color. Rep says likely will need to be reapplied in 2 years depending on use and time in the elements. it should be lighter and less likely to influence the sail shape. Anybody have this treatment on their sails? It would be this or a sock.

I have a 3di 140 RF which I was protecting with the same sock I had since day 1 (Super Bowl Sunday 2009, and yes I skipped the game to meet the delivery guys) but when the sock finally chaffed through, blew up and tore more than rip stop could cure and I discovered that a new sock would cost more than a stitched on canvas UV I went for the stitched on canvas option.

The paint on sounded good, but like you "every 2 years"? To me it was the difference between fun time, down time & spent time. I can always earn more $$$, but I can't earn more time.

No regrets

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4 hours ago, Parma said:

I have a 3di 140 RF which I was protecting with the same sock I had since day 1 (Super Bowl Sunday 2009, and yes I skipped the game to meet the delivery guys) but when the sock finally chaffed through, blew up and tore more than rip stop could cure and I discovered that a new sock would cost more than a stitched on canvas UV I went for the stitched on canvas option.

The paint on sounded good, but like you "every 2 years"? To me it was the difference between fun time, down time & spent time. I can always earn more $$$, but I can't earn more time.

No regrets

Painted UV is lighter that the Sunbrella, yes it needs to be done every two years, but after 2 years UV exposure, the thread on a Fabric UV cover is going to be getting dry and needing redoing any way, once you can run your thumbnail over the stitching an it comes out, time to restitch. A fabric UV cover will need re doing at the most after 4 years to provide any lasting protection and at that 4 year mark it's going to be bleached out and prone to chafe and tearing...but having done it's job.

It's personal preference as to whether you go for the lighter option or the more durable one, both have their ups and downs. A Sock in the short term is a good stop gap, but removing the sail and rolling is the best. This mainly applies to One Design classes where a limited number of sails/buttons are available or an owner who wants longevity from his sail over a few seasons.

If you're serious about your racing, you'll treat the ails with utmost care, otherwise, why run a few thousand holes through the leech of your new 3di and add all that weight in the first place.

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No shortcuts here. You'll have to take it down regardless of fabric type or what the sailmaker told you. UV will kill it far faster than stored inside the boat in a bag.

I

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8 hours ago, TANGO QUEBEC said:

If you're serious about your racing, you'll treat the ails with utmost care, otherwise, why run a few thousand holes through the leech of your new 3di and add all that weight in the first place.

Indeed, this is was the big sticking point, and was not easy to decide. But after all the pluses & minuses, pros & cons, cost vs fun time calculus and considering changes in the world around me I went for the canvas.

I expect the canvas to outlive the sail.

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Sailing should be fun. If your fun factor involves being able to take your boat out by yourself, leave the sail furled.

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1 hour ago, RATM said:

Sailing should be fun. If your fun factor involves being able to take your boat out by yourself, leave the sail furled.

losing because the sail has a hollow in the leach the size of the grand canyon isn't fun. However,. it totally depends on the boat and the level of racing you're participating in..... But if i was spending the coin for 3di i would take the sail down at the end of the day and have a dacron sail for knocking about. 

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Another option might be a North Nordac, which is the dacron version of the 3DI.  We have one, it's our roller furler, and racing #2 sail.  It has great shape and is really fast.  

 

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Not a full on racer just want a nice fast headsail that has reasonable durability for the $$.  Convenience and ease of use is high on the priority list.  This sail would be used mostly in the winter (October- May) when UV is a bit lower.  I usually remove the headsail if it is going to be wet for an extended period of time and I am unlikely to use the boat for over week or longer.  How is an old 3di going to fall apart? It will not delam, is it just going to get brittle and blow up one day?  Points (head, clew, and tack) blow out first? The paint UV is slightly less $$ than the cost of a sock and sock would last 4 years maybe more. Thinking of going with the paint,  just to see how it works, can get a sock later on if it sucks.

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11 hours ago, sonofasailor4x said:

Another option might be a North Nordac, which is the dacron version of the 3DI.  We have one, it's our roller furler, and racing #2 sail.  It has great shape and is really fast.  

 

Hadn't heard of the Nordac until a few weeks ago when i took part in a regatta in the J80 class. My first question was...Is this white 3di? I have to say it looked good over a wide wind range, but haven't seen it over a season, so cannot attest to it's longevity. An interesting product, and when I talked to a guy from North about it, he mentioned that even though it was only a few plys thick...3 or 4, North were looking to reduce that number further to just 2 or 3. This product could end up being a valid case for leave it on the head stay with a painted UV Leech. Less initial outlay for the sail, not being 3di (Carbon) and an already light product with minimal weight added by the paint.

However, as before, no matter what your budget, if you're serious about your racing, that sail will come off after every session and as Mustang_1 rightly said, you'd have a dacron sail for knocking around and keep the race fruit fresh.

 

Disclaimer: I am not a North Rep or associated with Big Blue/Evil Empire in any way (although have just noticed I'm wearing a North t shirt, bugger...must be laundry day). I have been fortunate enough to have worked with North 3di, Quantum Fusion and Quantum/Doyle Stratis on a number of GP Race programs and continue to do so, take above opinions how ever you wish. 

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If you're singlehanding a J80, why are you using a 3Di raw? Buy a sail that can better tolerate the abuse and save the 3di rolled and dry for when you're playing for keeps.  

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21 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

losing because the sail has a hollow in the leach the size of the grand canyon isn't fun. However,. it totally depends on the boat and the level of racing you're participating in..... But if i was spending the coin for 3di i would take the sail down at the end of the day and have a dacron sail for knocking about. 

This

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Dam, I must be doing this life thing wrong.  From now on if I am not racing I am going to ride a Huffy and drive a Yugo.:huh:

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4 hours ago, B dock said:

Dam, I must be doing this life thing wrong.  From now on if I am not racing I am going to ride a Huffy and drive a Yugo.:huh:

And take all of your sails off and keep them in your lounge, and take your halyards out, and take your main off, cos it's a sail. Silly rabbit. 

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I'm going through a similar decision. What I can't understand is why people are assuming that rolling a sail is worse than flaking it and then dragging it down below? I roll my top-line one-design racing sails over plastic tubes rather than fold them. Obviously the roll on a furler may not be as neat as the perfect roll on a tube, but the process of dragging a sail down, flaking it on the deck and then taking it down below isn't all that good on the sail either.  So if one uses a sock to tame the UV, why is it better to take the sail off?

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Corollary to the original question: If your idea of fun sailing is going out with the missus and avoiding unnecessary hassles but you still can't stand to have another boat blow by you with your baggy sails up, what's the best headsail material for shape and longevity to keep rolled on a furler? Sounds like someone upthread thinks it's 3DI Nordac with painted leach. Yes? 

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I don't really understand what the problem is. It's rolled and covered with canvas. Just like the mainsail 10 feet away, which may well be (gasp) flaked. Mains are ok to leave out in the sun under a canvas cover but headsails aren't? 

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2 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

I don't really understand what the problem is. It's rolled and covered with canvas. Just like the mainsail 10 feet away, which may well be (gasp) flaked. Mains are ok to leave out in the sun under a canvas cover but headsails aren't? 

I have ALWAYS had this thought. I leave my laminated jib rolled up under a sock when not in use... Seems fine.

~him

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14 hours ago, jackolantern said:

Flaking a mainsail doesn't put tension up the leech and hollow it out

Well of course hopefully if you are keeping your jib furled you are ALSO letting the tension out of the halyard to avoid this. 

One should be doing this anyway before furling as to not stress the furling until itself...

Hell, one should be slacking anything that is tight prior to putting the boat away to avoid line stretch and block wear. 

:ph34r:

~him

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On 4/15/2019 at 9:25 PM, jackolantern said:

Flaking a mainsail doesn't put tension up the leech and hollow it out

*1000

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On 4/16/2019 at 12:13 PM, him&her said:

Well of course hopefully if you are keeping your jib furled you are ALSO letting the tension out of the halyard to avoid this. 

One should be doing this anyway before furling as to not stress the furling until itself...

Hell, one should be slacking anything that is tight prior to putting the boat away to avoid line stretch and block wear. 

:ph34r:

~him

simple geometry, even if you slack the halyard it's not gonna be good for the sail 

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wait a minute...is someone suggesting that removing and then flaking a 3di headsail puts enough tension on the leech such that the sail will deform?

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58 minutes ago, Parma said:

wait a minute...is someone suggesting that removing and then flaking a 3di headsail puts enough tension on the leech such that the sail will deform?

I think people are suggesting that there is enough tension when left on the furler...

Which I still don't understand either :lol:

~him

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4 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

simple geometry, even if you slack the halyard it's not gonna be good for the sail 

 

35 minutes ago, him&her said:

I think people are suggesting that there is enough tension when left on the furler...

Which I still don't understand either :lol:

~him

Neither do I.

If it is simple geometry, perhaps Mustang can explain the phenomenon in a simple way.

All I know is that I can furl my headsail, and its leech, as tight or as loose as I like. What is important though, is to be able to tighten the sock properly, to avoid chafe on the leech. More on that later, when I find the pictures.

 

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On 4/15/2019 at 9:25 PM, jackolantern said:

Flaking a mainsail doesn't put tension up the leech and hollow it out

IE, flaking a headsail does put tension up the leech & hollow it out, unlike the flaking of a mainsail, which doesn't put tension up the leech.

Not even the luff, the damn leech!

How is any tension put on the leech of a flaked sail, ever?

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the leach is shorter than the luff, shorter than the roach, etc. When it gets rolled it up on a furler must conform to the shape of the underlying rolled object - the rest of the sail. If i still had my old LG flip phone i could show you my old 3di jib with a hollow so deep you could hear it echo when we tacked. Either roll it (but not around a solid object!) or flake it. 

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On 4/15/2019 at 1:55 PM, Alcatraz5768 said:

I don't really understand what the problem is. It's rolled and covered with canvas. Just like the mainsail 10 feet away, which may well be (gasp) flaked. Mains are ok to leave out in the sun under a canvas cover but headsails aren't? 

On 4/15/2019 at 8:25 PM, jackolantern said:

Flaking a mainsail doesn't put tension up the leech and hollow it out

On 4/20/2019 at 6:01 PM, Parma said:

IE, flaking a headsail does put tension up the leech & hollow it out, unlike the flaking of a mainsail, which doesn't put tension up the leech.

Not even the luff, the damn leech!

How is any tension put on the leech of a flaked sail, ever?

Jacks comment was comparing ROLLING the headsail to flaking the mainsail.

 

 

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If you're worried about stitching on sacrificial UV leech covers giving up the ghost before the UV cloth itself, use PTFE thread to sew it on.  Coats Helios p or Gore's more expensive Tenara will outlast ANY polyester thread, even the massive stuff.  Also, it is much more resistant to abrasion, so will survive many more trips being dragged  around the front of the rig.

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57 minutes ago, nlmasopust said:

If you're worried about stitching on sacrificial UV leech covers giving up the ghost before the UV cloth itself, use PTFE thread to sew it on.  Coats Helios p or Gore's more expensive Tenara will outlast ANY polyester thread, even the massive stuff.  Also, it is much more resistant to abrasion, so will survive many more trips being dragged  around the front of the rig.

Had my SunBrella Jeep cover resewn w/PTFE thread.  $400 compared to $300 having it sewn w/polyester.  When I asked why they said a spool of Tenara cost $130.00 vs. $30.00 for top of the line polyester, and Tenara is harder to sew with.  They guaranteed the fabric would rot away before the Tenara failed. They said it was no risk on their part because "GORE will pay for an authorized dealer for the reasonable and customary expense to re-stitch any article that was entirely stitched with GORE® TENARA® Sewing Thread."

Edit: GORE changed the thread design in 2014:  "Unique 3-ply bonded construction for improved sewability and appearance."

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6 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

the leach is shorter than the luff, shorter than the roach, etc. When it gets rolled it up on a furler must conform to the shape of the underlying rolled object - the rest of the sail. If i still had my old LG flip phone i could show you my old 3di jib with a hollow so deep you could hear it echo when we tacked. Either roll it (but not around a solid object!) or flake it. 

I see what you're saying but wouldn't that only apply if the "underlying object" was a hard & solid piece? If the sail is being coiled around itself won't it just crumple the underlying membrane, which is the sail, sufficiently to preclude any possibility of deforming the successive layers of the sail? In other words the fact that the sail itself is malleable creates an equilibrium of stress that equals zero? Especially considering that the max draft of the sail loads onto the sail unevenly as it is furled, further spreading any loading pattern over the entirety of the sail? I think that although 3di can be bent it is made to not stretch.

Enquiring minds need to know!

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7 hours ago, axolotl said:

Had my SunBrella Jeep cover resewn w/PTFE thread.  $400 compared to $300 having it sewn w/polyester.  When I asked why they said a spool of Tenara cost $130.00 vs. $30.00 for top of the line polyester, and Tenara is harder to sew with.  They guaranteed the fabric would rot away before the Tenara failed. They said it was no risk on their part because "GORE will pay for an authorized dealer for the reasonable and customary expense to re-stitch any article that was entirely stitched with GORE® TENARA® Sewing Thread."

Edit: GORE changed the thread design in 2014:  "Unique 3-ply bonded construction for improved sewability and appearance."

It is way more expensive, that pricing is about right.

It is not necessarily more difficult to sew with, just requires different machine settings compared to s or z twist bonded polyester thread that is standard in our industry.  I've heard Coats Helios p sews more like polyester.  Good canvas shops or people that use PTFE often will usually keep one machine reserved for that, so they don't have to change settings all the time.

Warranty is correct as well and both companies stand behind it.

The thread will likely outlast your Jeep, never mind the sunbrella :)

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10 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

the leach is shorter than the luff, shorter than the roach, etc. When it gets rolled it up on a furler must conform to the shape of the underlying rolled object - the rest of the sail. If i still had my old LG flip phone i could show you my old 3di jib with a hollow so deep you could hear it echo when we tacked. Either roll it (but not around a solid object!) or flake it. 

But hang on, when I roll the sails for my small ODs around a plastic tube (or even around themselves) from foot to head, there is no sign that the head area "conforms to the underlying rolled object" in a way that causes stretch. Nor have I heard of that being a major issue with Code Zeroes that are rolled under pressure and then flaked as a sausage.

The sails that I roll around a solid object (ie a plastic tube) can last in excellent condition for years on end, without a crease and with no sign of leach issues. One of my OD classes used to have roller furlers on the jibs and we had no history of leach problems.

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