zimm

Trailerable day sailor recommendations. 2 adults, 2 kids. Easy to set up.

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We've relocated to western Ft. Lauderdale and the wife okay'd us to get a our first small day sailor.  I want something I can tow and set up easy after dropping off at the ramp.  I figure we'll be tooling around in the inland waterways and biscayne bay.  We have 2 kids, aged 5 and 7.

At first we were thinking about a Hobie cat, but a little cuddy for gear, snacks, and cooler would be nice.    We both took a multi-day sailing course a few years back and got comfortable taking out a Catalina 16 by ourselves.  So something along those lines might be good.  The benches are nice to sit on too.

Due to the cost of boat storage, I plan to keep it in the backyard and drag it to a ramp with my Jeep.

I looked at a Catalina 22 a while ago, and horrified by the amount of work to step the mast and set up the rigging every time the boat is to be used.  It looked like the 22 would be better left stepped at a marina, which is out of my price range.  The cabin and porta potty would be nice though.

I think the budget would be maxed to $10k, but I'd be happier to spend half that.

Is an outboard worth considering?

 

 

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If you could find a Catalina 22 with a hinged mast setup then that setup work is greatly reduced. Anything with a tabernacle setup would serve your needs well. You will still have to attach and tighten the stays but you'll be doing that anyways with any size of boat. If you want to keep it in for a weekend local marinas will probably do transient dockage for less than the cost of a hotel room, or you could try to snag a mooring that looks unused and sleep on it just in case.

 

Cat 22's are super common and odds are you could find one with a tabernacle already for a fairly low price. Alternatively a local aluminum welding shop could put one on for not too much money. It seems like a boat of that sort will suit your needs- much smaller and you run into space or stability issues for 4 and I'm assuming at least 2 non-sailors.

 

Best of luck to you in your search.

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If you don’t need a porta pot after all. a Highlander might suit.    You have to pick your days, but a Buccaneer 18 served similar requirements for us when I was a slightly older kid.   I never outgrew it.    Stability is a concern (we had to be able to swim a mile before dad bought the boat, but he was always one to plan for contingencies ).   Oday mariner would be just big enough for the current kid ages and has space for a bathroom emergency.     All can be rigged without too much work, and you will have money left over for a reliable motor plus new sails next season.   Arrival to sailing is 45 minutes for one person in the Bucc, to provide perspective.    There are enough small jobs to keep the kids involved untying stuff, watching shrouds for kinks, etc..  

Does anybody know how long it takes to rig a San Juan 21?   As you jump into the 22 foot range your rigging time increases and the deck to pavement height becomes high enough the kids won’t be able to ‘help’ rig much,    Look at your local craigslist, and let us entertain ourselves with whatever you like.   You’ll be told you are paying too much, but several people will have time in the class to give you strengths and weaknesses.   

I think you want a motor, but electric might eliminate maintenance.    Just enough to get the bored kids home when the wind dies or  the sky turns dark in the distance.  

Make sure the trailer is solid, and there are no parts missing,  plan on new tires and bearings.

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Doesn't get much easier than a Flying Scot. With little practice, one person can rig and launch in 15 min. No cuddy cabin, but plenty of room in cockpit for 2 adults and 2 kids. There's room under foredeck for small kids to play, though I'd suggest a bow buoyancy bag which would occupy that space. Scot sailors find the CB trunk convenient for peeing. Highlander is similar, just slightly bigger. Both boats pretty stable and reasonably fast. Either can be fitted with a small ob on transom bracket.

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38 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Doesn't get much easier than a Flying Scot. With little practice, one person can rig and launch in 15 min. No cuddy cabin, but plenty of room in cockpit for 2 adults and 2 kids. There's room under foredeck for small kids to play, though I'd suggest a bow buoyancy bag which would occupy that space. Scot sailors find the CB trunk convenient for peeing. Highlander is similar, just slightly bigger. Both boats pretty stable and reasonably fast. Either can be fitted with a small ob on transom bracket.

Wow those do look great.  With 2 boys, peeing through the trunk would be fun and practical.  Time do get on with the research!

My parent's are building their retirement home on the water and they only have about 2' of water at the dock at low tide.  I think the scot would be perfect to have tied up there when we visit.

 

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7 minutes ago, zimm said:

Wow those do look great.  With 2 boys, peeing through the trunk would be fun and practical.  Time do get on with the research!

My parent's are building their retirement home on the water and they only have about 2' of water at the dock at low tide.  I think the scot would be perfect to have tied up there when we visit.

 

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/68648

Sarasota 

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2 hours ago, zimm said:

We've relocated to western Ft. Lauderdale and the wife okay'd us to get a our first small day sailor.  I want something I can tow and set up easy after dropping off at the ramp.  I figure we'll be tooling around in the inland waterways and biscayne bay.  We have 2 kids, aged 5 and 7.

At first we were thinking about a Hobie cat, but a little cuddy for gear, snacks, and cooler would be nice.    We both took a multi-day sailing course a few years back and got comfortable taking out a Catalina 16 by ourselves.  So something along those lines might be good.  The benches are nice to sit on too.

Due to the cost of boat storage, I plan to keep it in the backyard and drag it to a ramp with my Jeep.

I looked at a Catalina 22 a while ago, and horrified by the amount of work to step the mast and set up the rigging every time the boat is to be used.  It looked like the 22 would be better left stepped at a marina, which is out of my price range.  The cabin and porta potty would be nice though.

I think the budget would be maxed to $10k, but I'd be happier to spend half that.

Is an outboard worth considering?

 

 

Ultimate 20

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53 minutes ago, Commercial Boater said:
2 hours ago, zimm said:

We've relocated to western Ft. Lauderdale and the wife okay'd us to get a our first small day sailor.  I want something I can tow and set up easy after dropping off at the ramp. ..   ...    ...     ...

I looked at a Catalina 22 a while ago, and horrified by the amount of work to step the mast and set up the rigging ....    ...     ...

If you could find a Catalina 22 with a hinged mast setup then that setup work is greatly reduced. Anything with a tabernacle setup would serve your needs well. ...     ...     ...

 

Incorrect. ALL Catalina 22s have a hinged mast step, and it's an industrial process to rig & launch the boat. They are not really "trailerable" IMHO, it takes far too much time & effort and a nearly perfectly pitched launch ramp.

Of course, a smaller boat would be easier just because the components will be smaller & lighter, but many many "trailerable" boats from The Classic Era of production sailboats will be a fuckin' PITA no matter how many people say "Oh it's easy!" Personally, I'd put the Flying Scot in this category as well because while it does sail fairly well, is stable, and roomy, it has a number of quirks that are difficult to cope with (like needing a ladder to get in the boat while on the trailer, and the halyard winches).

It's surprisingly difficult to find a good boat. There's lots and lots of them out there for sale, for example you mention a Hobie Cat so something like this

Supercat 17 : https://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/boa/d/supercat-17/6499778089.html might be great or it might be missing a few key pieces, or have a hidden crack one of the hulls. When fully "in commission" these are great beach cats BTW, not as fast as some of the modern rockets but they handle very well and are lot faster than the Hobies plus the benefit of being more forgiving.

That Rhodes 19 linked to above looks worth a try

Something like this is tempting both for the price and the utility of a cabin and all https://miami.craigslist.org/brw/boa/d/foot-mirage-racing-sailboat/6493516423.html but given it's age it seems more likely to need fixin', same for this https://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/boa/d/hunter-216-sailboat/6446436850.html which would be high on my list -IF- it weren't a plastic Hunter with a reputation for hidden cracks plus a defect in the swing-keel mechanism. Still might be worth a look, yeah yeah Hunters have a shit reputation .... the H 216 was sold to a lot of resorts and I've sailed about half a dozen of them all over, it has a cabin with room for a porta potty and the cockpit is very roomy & comfy and they sail quite well. The pick of Craigslist to me is this boat right here  https://miami.craigslist.org/brw/boa/d/custom-sailboat-25ft-racer/6453332428.html which I only know by reputation.

What you want is 1- not too big 2- sits low on the trailer 3- not too complex rigging (and you want COMPLETE rigging, not missing a few parts) 4- recent sails, not OEM from the 1980s or earlier..... sails are shockingly expensive 5- a GOOD trailer (which means galvanized, with good bunks and recent bearings & tires).

It's entirely too easy to find a boat that looks like a "deal" and then you find that it needs some work, some parts that are shockingly expensive, and when you finally get it together, it doesn't sail all that well anyway. Avoid these pitfalls and you'll be golden.

There is no substitute for legwork, unfortunately.

Good luck and check back in

FB- Doug

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I had a great learning curve on my first boat, a Wayfarer 16. Easy to rig, easy to sail, lots of room. Extremely seaworthy for the size, a couple of nutters sailed one from Scotland to Iceland. We trailered mine out from the prairies and sailed it through the BC Gulf Islands, great fun.

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3 hours ago, zimm said:

Wow those do look great.  With 2 boys, peeing through the trunk would be fun and practical.  Time do get on with the research!

My parent's are building their retirement home on the water and they only have about 2' of water at the dock at low tide.  I think the scot would be perfect to have tied up there when we visit.

 

With CB and rudder raised, Scot will float in 2' of water with plenty to spare.  I think you're just talking about mooring it there while visiting. It's good for that. Long term...the boat isn't self-bailing, so it would have to be bailed out after a rain or fitted with a mooring cover. For what appears you're doing, it's fine.

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 I was your neighbor, Davie, for many years. Sailed Biscayne Bay for 40 Years.

Biscayne Bay is the only good place to sail, unless you want to get run over by 1000 HP powerboat.

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Wayfarer is a good suggestion, if you can find one in the US?  Aft mainsheet setup gives more space for crew. Easier to launch and recover than a keelboat. One strong person can raise mast. Draws inches with c/b up. Good cruising dinghy. Mainstay of sailing school fleets for years, as it's a great platform to learn to sail. Our club bought new ones a coups of years ago.  I have an older one myself,  though we've not used it much recently as we've been sailing other boats. 

 Cheers,

                W.

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Thread drift.   Boats in production that fit the trailer launched family daysailor  niche.   

Rhodes / Mariner 19 platform     Stuart makes new ones and sells used.   

Flying Scott.   

Bucc.   Sold but marketed as a 2 person racer not a family daysailor anymore

American 18.   I saw one at Annapolis but don’t know much about it.

What else is there if the guy wanted to buy new?   

 

 

 

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Just now, Lark said:

Thread drift.   Boats in production that fit the trailer launched family daysailor  niche.   

Rhodes / Mariner 19 platform     Stuart makes new ones and sells used.   

Flying Scott.   

Bucc.   Sold but marketed as a 2 person racer not a family daysailor anymore

American 18.   I saw one at Annapolis but don’t know much about it.

What else is there if the guy wanted to buy new?   

 

 

 

or 2 Sunfish

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2 minutes ago, Lark said:

Thread drift.   Boats in production that fit the trailer launched family daysailor  niche.   

Rhodes / Mariner 19 platform     Stuart makes new ones and sells used.   

Flying Scott.   

Bucc.   Sold but marketed as a 2 person racer not a family daysailor anymore

American 18.   I saw one at Annapolis but don’t know much about it.

What else is there if the guy wanted to buy new?   

 

 

 

Seascape 18

A bit out of his stated budget though....

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17 minutes ago, Lark said:

Thread drift.   Boats in production that fit the trailer launched family daysailor  niche.   

Rhodes / Mariner 19 platform     Stuart makes new ones and sells used.   

Flying Scott.   

Bucc.   Sold but marketed as a 2 person racer not a family daysailor anymore

American 18.   I saw one at Annapolis but don’t know much about it.

What else is there if the guy wanted to buy new?   

 

 

 

We had the Wayfarer lookalike called the CL16 and it was a FG hull design... they still are available in Canada new...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CL_16

http://www.vaxxine.com/clsailboats/

 

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23 hours ago, RKoch said:

Doesn't get much easier than a Flying Scot. With little practice, one person can rig and launch in 15 min. No cuddy cabin, but plenty of room in cockpit for 2 adults and 2 kids. There's room under foredeck for small kids to play, though I'd suggest a bow buoyancy bag which would occupy that space. Scot sailors find the CB trunk convenient for peeing.

+1. Nice boats, great for your purpose if perhaps a little bit larger than needed (a Scot is kinda like a Wayfarer on steroids). Great class to belong to, with friendly people.

On 2018-02-17 at 12:38 PM, zimm said:

I looked at a Catalina 22 a while ago, and horrified by the amount of work to step the mast and set up the rigging every time the boat is to be used.

Yeah, I agree. While I like Catalina 22s, it's more boat and more hassles than you need.

Keep things small and simple, and things will go easier for you. If the rest of the family gets the sailing bug, you can always move up to a larger boat and then start doing some overnight trips. 

53 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Wayfarer is a good suggestion, if you can find one in the US?  Aft mainsheet setup gives more space for crew. Easier to launch and recover than a keelboat. One strong person can raise mast. Draws inches with c/b up. Good cruising dinghy. Mainstay of sailing school fleets for years, as it's a great platform to learn to sail. Our club bought new ones a coups of years ago.  I have an older one myself,  though we've not used it much recently as we've been sailing other boats. 

+1 on this suggestion, too. Would be my preference over a Flying Scot, as it's quite big enough for your family but less heavy and bulky than a Scot. As Norse Horse said, the Canadian-made CL-16 is essentially the same boat with a simplified rig (not great for racing, but irrelevant to your purpose), and might be a bit easier to find in Florida.

Both Wayfarers and Flying Scots are fleets at Lake Eustis Sailing Club, so I recommend visiting there (not all that far from Fort Lauderdale) to see the boats and benefit from their owners' advice.

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39 minutes ago, Lark said:

Thread drift. Boats in production that fit the trailer launched family daysailor  niche.   

Rhodes / Mariner 19 platform     Stuart makes new ones and sells used.   

Flying Scott.   

Bucc.   Sold but marketed as a 2 person racer not a family daysailor anymore

American 18.   I saw one at Annapolis but don’t know much about it.

What else is there if the guy wanted to buy new?

This book is worth reading. Published 2009 so it does not include new models introduced since then, but otherwise it is indeed quite "complete".

97588df2b38de88-261x361.jpg

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42 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

A Lightning is also a consideration

Lightning is ok if kept in a dry-slip with mast up. Rigging from a trailer is much more complicated than a Scot, and realistically takes two people. I've owned both. When I gave up my dry slip at YC I sold the Lightning and sailed a Scot. Much easier to deal with. Simpler layout on Scot also easier for pick-up crew. Speed not vastly different...some conditions the Scot even faster. All the Lightning sailors at YC ended up getting Scots...more family-friendly boat.

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2 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Lightning is ok if kept in a dry-slip with mast up. Rigging from a trailer is much more complicated than a Scot, and realistically takes two people. I've owned both. When I gave up my dry slip at YC I sold the Lightning and sailed a Scot. Much easier to deal with. Simpler layout on Scot also easier for pick-up crew. Speed not vastly different...some conditions the Scot even faster. All the Lightning sailors at YC ended up getting Scots...more family-friendly boat.

Agree with all that...

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16 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Lightning is ok if kept in a dry-slip with mast up. Rigging from a trailer is much more complicated than a Scot, and realistically takes two people. I've owned both. When I gave up my dry slip at YC I sold the Lightning and sailed a Scot. Much easier to deal with. Simpler layout on Scot also easier for pick-up crew. Speed not vastly different...some conditions the Scot even faster. All the Lightning sailors at YC ended up getting Scots...more family-friendly boat.

See further this thread.

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1 hour ago, Lark said:

Thread drift.   Boats in production that fit the trailer launched family daysailor  niche.   

Rhodes / Mariner 19 platform     Stuart makes new ones and sells used.   

Flying Scott.   

Bucc.   Sold but marketed as a 2 person racer not a family daysailor anymore

American 18.   I saw one at Annapolis but don’t know much about it.

What else is there if the guy wanted to buy new?   

 

 

 

West Wight Potter (ducking!)

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6 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Don’t recall him saying anything about sailing transatlantic 

Well, they were being made in California but it looks like they've gone overseas. Their former manufacturer has an updated 18'er (looks like a modern revision of the WWP19) as well as a 23'er intended to be a smaller MacGregor.

https://venturasportboats.com/

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1 hour ago, Svanen said:

This book is worth reading. Published 2009 so it does not include new models introduced since then, but otherwise it is indeed quite "complete".

97588df2b38de88-261x361.jpg

Great book, but further glorious drift.    (Why be limited by the OP anyway?).   This book is geared for the camp-able overnighter and trailer launchable pocket cruiser.   Very different specs than a dry stores family trailer daysailor IMO.  

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On 2/17/2018 at 11:27 AM, teamvmg said:

F-24                Image result for f24 trimaran

I had one of those Corsair F24, for a couple years and also think it was the best trailerable boat imaginable... could launch it in 15 minutes from any ramp, was very seaworthy for its size, was a blast to sail, and had just enough room bellow for a small family.  But really the best thing was when it came time to sell the boat it only took a couple weeks and I had two buyers wanting to pay me more than what I bought it for....Didnt even want to test sail it because they knew they sailed so well.  The other boats I have sold took many months and in a couple instances years sitting at the brokerage before they sold...for a huge loss.

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I have to say the Scot is a great boat, we grew up with them in Louisiana and i owned one for about 4 years to take family and friends out since the catamaran was not newbie friendly. One other boat you might consider if you want a “cabin” look would be the O’day DaySailer https://www.daysailer.org/

either of those two boats would be great for what you want. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Infinity+1 said:

I was thinking the daysailer would be a good choice as well.

Daysailer is good, but have any been made in the last 25 years?

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9 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Daysailer is good, but have any been made in the last 25 years?

they still make them, not sure if anyone has actually bought a new one in 25 years. I figure a decent used one for 3 grand and getting a family on the water seems like a win.

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17 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Daysailer is good, but have any been made in the last 25 years?

If we're talking the (formerly) ODay Daysailer: yes, they're still manufactured by Cape Cod Shipbuilding, and I believe the new boats are stil class legal. 

Having owned both a Daysailer and a Mariner (based on the Rhodes 19), I can say the rigging process is almost identical and you get a hell of a lot more    boat with the Mariner.  For the OP's description I think the Daysailer is too much of a big dinghy...  too tender and too active--there's not a single good spot to sit that isn't in the way if you're not actively part of the sailing crew... but a Mariner would be great.  I think a lot of you guys are maybe too far from having small kids in the house to remember how valuable a shady little cabin is.  Your sailing day is much more pleasant when junior can tune out for a moment out of the sun and the spider web of lines that is a small boat, and the slight bump in stability from the cast swing keel makes it a much less nervous boat in a breeze. 5 year olds don't want to be on the rail all afternoon.

Btw--I don't how we started limiting this to new boats, they're way out of the price range stated for the sort of craft he wants. 

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2 hours ago, RKoch said:

Catboats are beamy for stability. Not going to find one under 8.5' of beam for easy trailering unless it's pretty small. 

The Sanderlings will do, as will a couple of others, so at least ~1/3 of the listings are good?

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47 minutes ago, ldeikis said:

If we're talking the (formerly) ODay Daysailer: yes, they're still manufactured by Cape Cod Shipbuilding, and I believe the new boats are stil class legal. 

Having owned both a Daysailer and a Mariner (based on the Rhodes 19), I can say the rigging process is almost identical and you get a hell of a lot more    boat with the Mariner.  For the OP's description I think the Daysailer is too much of a big dinghy...  too tender and too active--there's not a single good spot to sit that isn't in the way if you're not actively part of the sailing crew... but a Mariner would be great.  I think a lot of you guys are maybe too far from having small kids in the house to remember how valuable a shady little cabin is.  Your sailing day is much more pleasant when junior can tune out for a moment out of the sun and the spider web of lines that is a small boat, and the slight bump in stability from the cast swing keel makes it a much less nervous boat in a breeze. 5 year olds don't want to be on the rail all afternoon.

Btw--I don't how we started limiting this to new boats, they're way out of the price range stated for the sort of craft he wants. 

New boats was my thread drift, I got bored with the OP.     I remember being that little kid, but the used boats were less antique in that era.   I had a hat, was tanned darker than dirt. and we would run up on a beach for a swim break on occasion.   Since he has boys and is open minded, the centerboard well subs as a port a pot so either Rhodes 19 deck version would work, as well as the wayfairer / CL-16 and scott.    I’m glad to know the daysailor is still built, and cool to learn about the seascape.    Also reading about the guys that took the wayfairer to Iceland.   This place is great!    

Zimm now has the fun task of finding his first boat.  Please let us know how it goes.

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9 hours ago, ldeikis said:

If we're talking the (formerly) ODay Daysailer: yes, they're still manufactured by Cape Cod Shipbuilding, and I believe the new boats are stil class legal. 

Having owned both a Daysailer and a Mariner (based on the Rhodes 19), I can say the rigging process is almost identical and you get a hell of a lot more    boat with the Mariner.  For the OP's description I think the Daysailer is too much of a big dinghy...  too tender and too active--there's not a single good spot to sit that isn't in the way if you're not actively part of the sailing crew... but a Mariner would be great.  I think a lot of you guys are maybe too far from having small kids in the house to remember how valuable a shady little cabin is.  Your sailing day is much more pleasant when junior can tune out for a moment out of the sun and the spider web of lines that is a small boat, and the slight bump in stability from the cast swing keel makes it a much less nervous boat in a breeze. 5 year olds don't want to be on the rail all afternoon.

Btw--I don't how we started limiting this to new boats, they're way out of the price range stated for the sort of craft he wants. 

I started sailing with an ODay Daysailer and after a couple of years went to the ODay Mariner. The Mariner was great and it even had a head.

Everything Ideikis said , I agree with, as the Mariner was one of my favorite boats to sail. 

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15 hours ago, RKoch said:

Daysailer is good, but have any been made in the last 25 years?

I did send him a PM that my daughters Day Sailer (a DS II with a closed fwd bulkhead) could be had for cheap with new sails included - it would actually be a great boat for what he wants

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Thanks for the offer, but we're not ready to buy just yet.  We're in the process of buying a house.  In face we submitted the offer just now.  If we get the house and close, then I can get the boat because there's room in the back to keep it.

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5 minutes ago, zimm said:

Thanks for the offer, but we're not ready to buy just yet.  We're in the process of buying a house.  In face we submitted the offer just now.  If we get the house and close, then I can get the boat because there's room in the back to keep it.

Good luck on the house buying.  The boat is here in the backyard (on a lift) if you are game at some point in the future - you are welcome to come up and take it for a spin to see if it is something for you.

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51 minutes ago, Christian said:

Day Sailer (a DS II with a closed fwd bulkhead) could be had for cheap with new sails included - it would actually be a great boat for what he wants

With that large cockpit, it would be very suitable for family outings.

An Uffa Fox design, too! 

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18 hours ago, zimm said:

Thanks for the offer, but we're not ready to buy just yet.  We're in the process of buying a house.  In face we submitted the offer just now.  If we get the house and close, then I can get the boat because there's room in the back to keep it.

Good luck on the house.... it's a big step.

Remember, house and boats are alike in the they both demand infinite amounts of repair & updates/upgrades. Don't get sucked into thinking "I'll buy that boat right after I finish umptying the dumpty (fill in home project of your choice)" unless you'll be happy NEVER sailing, ever.

I love my wife dearly and we actually met sailing, and we've spent about 25 years now sailing and cruising together. But we changed houses about 6 years ago and every couple of weeks she gets bent out of shape about something or other that needs remodeling or rebuilding or some goddam thing..... I tell her, "Nope, I'm just letting the house fall down and we'll start over building a new one. It'll be less work and you can have bigger closets. Meanwhile, I'm going sailing."

Another thing (it's always just one more thing, iddennit).... don't get sucked into the Search For The PERFECT Boat. This does not exist. Do enough leg work to find a good boat that will suit your purpose in your area, and push on ahead relentlessly. You'll learn a lot, and armed with new knowledge, you can search for a better boat in a few years.

FB- Doug

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I used to have an Oday 19. was a fairly easy set up, small cuddy could even sleep in it if you were son inclined for a night or two. centerboard boat so could float easily in 2' of water. easy to sail and could be had inexpensively. 

 

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On 2/18/2018 at 7:29 PM, foiledagain said:

I had one of those Corsair F24, for a couple years and also think it was the best trailerable boat imaginable... could launch it in 15 minutes from any ramp, was very seaworthy for its size, was a blast to sail, and had just enough room bellow for a small family.  But really the best thing was when it came time to sell the boat it only took a couple weeks and I had two buyers wanting to pay me more than what I bought it for....Didnt even want to test sail it because they knew they sailed so well.  The other boats I have sold took many months and in a couple instances years sitting at the brokerage before they sold...for a huge loss.

The F24 was my first thought when I read the thread title.

I haven't looked in a while. Is it now possible to get one that's under the $10k price limit?

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On 2/17/2018 at 12:38 PM, zimm said:

I looked at a Catalina 22 a while ago, and horrified by the amount of work to step the mast and set up the rigging every time the boat is to be used.  It looked like the 22 would be better left stepped at a marina, which is out of my price range.  The cabin and porta potty would be nice though.

I think the budget would be maxed to $10k, but I'd be happier to spend half that.

Is an outboard worth considering?

I worked at a dealership where at various times we sold trailerable Precision, Catalina, Hunter, MacGregor, Seaward, and Com-Pac boats new. We also sold used trailerables of every kind through the brokerage. I have owned a Corsair F-27 and a Com-Pac Sun Cat.

I've set up a few trailerable boats. Almost all are a PITA, including some of my favorites. The big exception in my biased opinion is the Sun Cat. The video below shows one of my customers rigging his boat for the very first time, unrehearsed. Don't worry, it's a really short part of a pretty short video. My personal record was 39 seconds, but I didn't know I was being timed and am sure I could do better. It always took much longer to park the truck than to rig the boat. You might find one from the early 2000's under your max price. If you do, it won't depreciate much in the next few years so can be sold if you don't like it. Don't try to sail it in less than 8 knots of wind. You won't like that.

 

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

The F24 was my first thought when I read the thread title.

I haven't looked in a while. Is it now possible to get one that's under the $10k price limit?

I haven't seen any F24's offered that low.... but mine was the cheapest boat I have ever owned. .. in that I had a great time sailing her for a couple summers, never had to pay moorage or haulout fees, and then sold it for more than I paid for it without much effort.

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Steam Flyer hates the San Juan 21, but it is really straight forward to rig and a decent little boat.  One person can do it by themselves in 30 minutes.  Cockpit might get a little cramped for a family of four, but they can sail in just about any condition and with the swing keel and pop up rudder, when you run aground in Biscayne Bay you won't have a problem  Small cabin, for going to the bathroom, or the cockpit drain is at the front of the cockpit so your wife can sit in the companionway with her bum hanging out and pee and the boys can pee in the drain all day.

You can pick up a decent San Juan for $2,000. 

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Thanks for the inputs.  The corsair is out- far too expensive, too big, and too much draft (over 5' with board down).  That thing will ground in Biscayne bay.  Plus the boat has to be "unseen" from the road in my side yard and the corsair looks pretty huge on a trailer.

 

The com-pac suncat looks awesome.  I was thinking "cat" as in catamaran, not a single mast forward without a jib.  That might be just the ticket for the small kids.  Less to deal with and super fast mast stepping.

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27 minutes ago, DriverEd said:

Steam Flyer hates the San Juan 21, but it is really straight forward to rig and a decent little boat.  One person can do it by themselves in 30 minutes.  Cockpit might get a little cramped for a family of four, but they can sail in just about any condition and with the swing keel and pop up rudder, when you run aground in Biscayne Bay you won't have a problem  Small cabin, for going to the bathroom, or the cockpit drain is at the front of the cockpit so your wife can sit in the companionway with her bum hanging out and pee and the boys can pee in the drain all day.

You can pick up a decent San Juan for $2,000. 

I don't hate San Juan 21s, I just don't own one and don't plan to. Sailed 'em enough to have an opinion, in fact I sailed one less than 2 months ago......

But D-Ed is right about the benefits: it's self-bailing, shallow-water capable, has a cuddy, rig is relatively simple and easy to set up, and they are very affordable. They sail well, fun & responsive too. That also means some people consider them tippy in gusty winds but the swing keel does make it genuinely self-righting.

The Sun-Cat is also great in many ways, it would be tough to find an easier- (and quicker)-to-rig boat. A bit pricier, a bit lower down the "responsive and fun" scale but correspondingly less tippy.

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17 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

A bit pricier, a bit lower down the "responsive and fun" scale but correspondingly less tippy.

I think Doug is just being nice.

As catboats go, the way to think of the Sun Cat is that the first reef is already in. Real catboats typically reef around 12 knots. In the Sun Cat it's closer to 20.

A friend put a 180 sq ft sail on his (factory sail is 150) and it performed significantly better. With the normal sail, it's just an underpowered boat. It can still be fun to sail if there's a breeze. Departed Anarchist Tom Scott took this video of me sailing a friend's boat with a potential customer years ago.

The Sun Cat is just about impossible to capsize and if it's heeling a lot, you're doing it wrong.

And Zimm, I grew up on Biscayne Bay. Most of it is 8' deep. There's plenty of room to sail with a 5' board down. But it did take me closer to 39 minutes than 39 seconds to rig my F-27 at the ramp.

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20 hours ago, foiledagain said:

I haven't seen any F24's offered that low.... but mine was the cheapest boat I have ever owned. .. in that I had a great time sailing her for a couple summers, never had to pay moorage or haulout fees, and then sold it for more than I paid for it without much effort.

I had a similar experience. We made money on the F-27 despite adding a new outboard, but that was largely because the previous owner was a good friend of my partner in the boat and sold it to us for less than it was really worth. If I decided to buy it back today (and if it wasn't in Sweden), I'd guess that the price would be right about what I sold it for if it's in similar condition.

We owned our Sun Cat for several years and sold it for exactly what we paid for it. I saw it out on the harbor the other day. It still looks good and would probably fetch about the same price today.

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Thanks for the inputs.  With a 5 and 7 year old, 40 minute setup is out of the question for an sail!  Slow is what I’m prepared for.  My first boat was 86mph donzi then a Grady white which was “slow” with a 30mph cruise.   If my wife had no input I’d get a 15’ whaler but she says sail or no boat.   So life at 4 knots is what I’m looking at next.  

Is it feasible to drop in at a ramp and get the cat somewhere for the kids to swim or sand bar?  That’s what we think we’ll primarily do.   Then dragging it to the keys for vacation and to my parents house on the water in port Charollete.  

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4 knots in a Sun Cat is a bit optimistic. That would be on a good day. They're pretty nice though. Very roomy cockpit, and they are set up to rig and launch pretty easily and quickly. They're a CB, but I think they draw a bit more than a Flying Scot. May be heavier too. 

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I had a lot of experience with the Sea Pearl 21 and a small amount with the Sea Pearl 28 (sailing with friend, did not own it). They were the only boats I'd say rival the Sun Cat .... they are both amazingly quick-n-easy to rig, in fact (depending on how you stowed & secured the rig, of course) it could take less than a minute. OTOH both are longer than they are big, and kinda tippy. They are IMHO boats for the aficianado, the lover of maritime esoterica, although being able to row them comes in handy. I rowed the SP21 almost as many miles as I sailed it. The only other boat I can think of which comes into that realm of simplicity and practicality (if that's what you want to call it, a certain amount of whimsy and dogged nonconformism are in play too) is the Dovekie.

But you don't need to go to extremes. Many small conventional sloops are -almost- as easy to rig, and perform much better especially upwind. Shucks, a Venture 21 could be just the ticket although many here would scoff. Many of the boats suggested here would serve quite well.

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12 hours ago, zimm said:

Is it feasible to drop in at a ramp and get the cat somewhere for the kids to swim or sand bar?  That’s what we think we’ll primarily do.

Yes but the shoal keel draws about a foot and a half with board up. So shallow, but not that shallow.

The Sun Cat Company built Sun Cats in the 1970's and 80's and those boats are different (though still legal for Sun Cat Class racing.)

No keel, round bottom with bilge boards that retract into the bench seats. The one I saw had a mast tabernacle but removing the boom was required. Marconi rig, not gaff. So a bit more trouble to set up. They're pretty cheap if you can find one. They show up on craigslist now and then. Hull draft was something like 6 inches so better for sand bar swims.

The smaller Picnic Cat sails better in light air, is spacious for a 14 footer, and draws almost nothing with board up.

 

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A Sun Cat with a bigger sail than stock sails really well. You gotta lengthen to yard and boom by about 2 feet each, but it's worth the trouble. My EC2O14 partner had one and it was pretty good, much better than the standard rig. They are really nice little daysailers and weekenders, too. 

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I’m a novice with a couple decades tiller time on a dozen lakes.   No way I’d be upsizing the sail plan on a boat I was taking my children on without some very trusted guidance.   Buy a ‘good enough’ production boat in good shape.  Listen to your wife.   If she likes the boat and WANTS  to spend time on the water with you and the kids, all will rock.  Make the PO demo the rigging process, to make sure it’s all there and to see how long it takes.

 As the kids get older they may want more exhilaration, or the ability to overnight.   If your family outgrows the first boat,  you’ll probably break even if you ignore all repairs, maintenance and upgrades.   Think of those things as the ticket price.   They pay for the day or season’s entertainment, but boat bucks aren’t investments.   You can sell the well maintained used boat in a few years for your initial purchase price, and buy one that better suits your new goals.   This is unlike a powerboat, horse or four wheeler.   You can also push your weather envelope and sailing season as you get bored.   

 

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7 hours ago, Lark said:

I’m a novice with a couple decades tiller time on a dozen lakes.   No way I’d be upsizing the sail plan on a boat I was taking my children on without some very trusted guidance.  

Would the guidance of designer Clark Mills count?

Because he originally designed the Sun Cat to have 165 sq ft of sail instead of 150 and no ballasted keel.

Reducing sail area and adding a ballasted keel at the same time is extra-conservative. Bumping the sail area up to 180 with a ballasted keel is probably just keeping the power to weight ratio and righting moment about the same as Mr. Mills designed.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Would the guidance of designer Clark Mills count?

Because he originally designed the Sun Cat to have 165 sq ft of sail instead of 150 and no ballasted keel.

Reducing sail area and adding a ballasted keel at the same time is extra-conservative. Bumping the sail area up to 180 with a ballasted keel is probably just keeping the power to weight ratio and righting moment about the same as Mr. Mills designed.

 

 

Advising the guy to upgrade  the spar on his first boat?    He took a sailing class a couple years ago.   I’d need to know exactly what section to buy.    It looks like there is no Vang by your link, but there are shrouds to move and that very cool hinged stub.   I have some experience replacing goosenecks and fastening a block to the boom.   That likely wasn’t part of his intro class.   I forget he’s in Florida.  There may still be boat shops under a two hour drive (though that may not equal 100+ miles in your traffic) that actually know about sailboats.   I have to rely on online experts and a few books.   I think the project is a bit ambitious for a guy that checked out on a Catalina 16 and wants to take his five and seven year old children on the water to have some fun.

if the kids want a more exciting boat as they reach middle school, and room for a friend, Zimm won’t recoup the cost of the new sails, mast, boom, etc.   

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Right.   I have probably 4 hours of sailing experience.  The last time I took out a Catalina 16.5 was in 2010.  Not that I don't know boating, I've boated my whole life (power), and I just retired after 20 years of being in the Navy (helicopter pilot)  I even got my officer of the deck qualification on the 40,000ton USS IWO JIMA (LHD7).  So I got the rules of the road and stuff.  What I lack is knowledge on what a good day sailor will be that's easy to set up (solo) while the kids impatiently wait to jump in.   It's all about having fun, teaching the kids, and getting on (and in) the water.

I have a cousin who circumnavigated the globe on his 40' ketch back in the 80's and my dad helped him on the transatlantic passage.  I want to micro-scale that and give the boys some nautical adventures of their own.

So far the suncat seems to be the #1 option, although a flying scot type boat might be more fun and lively, not sure if I need that with a skittish wife and 2 boys.

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Seriously, get the flying scot. So much easier to own than most of the other boats listed above. Inexpensive, easy to trailer, super stable, easy to set up and sail, an established class so parts and advice are available. And here's a big plus.... when you are done with it and want to sell it, you will actually be able to.  I have limited experience sailing a scot, but my brother is looking for the same reasons as you and I am steering him toward a scot.

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Seascape 18 might be a great fit, unless you are planning on camper sailing with the family. Its a great little trailer sailor, easy to setup and sail. 

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No plans to camp or overnight on the little boat.  If I wanted to do that, I'd need 4 bunks and I'm back to a Catalina 22, which is too much to tow and set up.

Another "factor" is the homeowner's association rules at our new house (yes, they accepted our offer), says that any boat has to be out of site from the road.  Luckily there's a 6' privacy fence all around the back and side yard.  The sea cat sits 8' off the ground on the trailer, that could be a potential issue if some doodley old lady complains about seeing a mast poking up.   I'll have to get the fence company to put a wider gate in the back, but that shouldn't be an issue to keep the boat at home and save a LOT of storage money and hassle of off-site storage.

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" What I lack is knowledge on what a good day sailor will be that's easy to set up (solo) while the kids impatiently wait to jump in.   It's all about having fun, teaching the kids, and getting on (and in) the water."

Unless your 5year old is a zen master, this pretty much makes the Suncat the only thing on this page still in the running.  I keep my boat on a mooring to avoid this hangup, but when we do trailer the wife takes the kid to the adjacent playground until I'm ready to go.  Consider if that's possible for your family, but be honest...  A half hour is a quick rig for most of these boats from on the road to in the water  even if they're prepped well and you keep the sail rigged to the boom and lines reaved shrouds attached etc.  Its different dry sailing from a club, but towing adds silly time consuming elements. 

 

Ps--Some of these other little boats do have bunks:  The Mariner has two quarter berths plus the v, sleeps 4 in a very sales-brochure kind of way...  but works well as a once or twice a season way to make sailing an adventure for the kid.  Pretty much the only time I use them for more than storage or nap time, but a short overnight to some cove with a shore campfire and smores is pretty memorable to junior.  

 

 

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Mariner 2 + 2.  Learn to sail and then you can move up.  Won't scare the kids and wife.   Holds value and pretty stable.  Good for inshore and lakes.  Wouldn't recommend for ocean sailing, unless weather permits.

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4 hours ago, Lark said:

Advising the guy to upgrade  the spar on his first boat?    He took a sailing class a couple years ago.   I’d need to know exactly what section to buy.    It looks like there is no Vang by your link, but there are shrouds to move and that very cool hinged stub.   I have some experience replacing goosenecks and fastening a block to the boom.   That likely wasn’t part of his intro class.   I forget he’s in Florida.  There may still be boat shops under a two hour drive (though that may not equal 100+ miles in your traffic) that actually know about sailboats.   I have to rely on online experts and a few books.   I think the project is a bit ambitious for a guy that checked out on a Catalina 16 and wants to take his five and seven year old children on the water to have some fun.

if the kids want a more exciting boat as they reach middle school, and room for a friend, Zimm won’t recoup the cost of the new sails, mast, boom, etc.   

Mistermoon may recall the exact nature of the spar extensions. They weren't high tech. Like sticking a stick into the end of the gaff. Some Sun Cats have a vang. The shrouds didn't need moving. It was a used sail. It's still around and I have the current owner's number someplace.

But your point is a good one that changing the rigging in any way is a bit advanced at this point. Back to my original advice: don't attempt to sail a Sun Cat in less than 8 knots of wind. Since the OP has a history of powerboating and I know from many hours of personal experience that a 15 Whaler is a great boat for Biscayne Bay, I'd say buy it for those wind-free days just as soon as your wife is in a good enough mood to say OK.

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4 hours ago, ldeikis said:

" What I lack is knowledge on what a good day sailor will be that's easy to set up (solo) while the kids impatiently wait to jump in.   It's all about having fun, teaching the kids, and getting on (and in) the water."

Unless your 5year old is a zen master, this pretty much makes the Suncat the only thing on this page still in the running.  I keep my boat on a mooring to avoid this hangup, but when we do trailer the wife takes the kid to the adjacent playground until I'm ready to go.  Consider if that's possible for your family, but be honest...  A half hour is a quick rig for most of these boats from on the road to in the water  even if they're prepped well and you keep the sail rigged to the boom and lines reaved shrouds attached etc.  Its different dry sailing from a club, but towing adds silly time consuming elements. 

 

Ps--Some of these other little boats do have bunks:  The Mariner has two quarter berths plus the v, sleeps 4 in a very sales-brochure kind of way...  but works well as a once or twice a season way to make sailing an adventure for the kid.  Pretty much the only time I use them for more than storage or nap time, but a short overnight to some cove with a shore campfire and smores is pretty memorable to junior.  

 

 

That is utter bullshit.  Many of the small 16-low 20'ish footers are pretty easy to rig singlehanded in a fairly small amount of time.  While a Suncat may appeal to some it is to others a slow sidesliding bathtub.  Horses for courses - trying to sell "your" boat as the greatest thing that has ever floated on water seems more like an attempt to convince yourself that you have the worlds best boat.  And it may be for you but not necessarily for others.  Don't try to oversell it.

Oh - BTW - you forgot the little detail that one of those tubs weigh double to triple of some of the other daysailers mentioned here - not an insignificant hassle when having to manhandle it by yourself and moving it in/out of your backyard

 

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6 hours ago, zimm said:

Right.   I have probably 4 hours of sailing experience.  The last time I took out a Catalina 16.5 was in 2010.  Not that I don't know boating, I've boated my whole life (power), and I just retired after 20 years of being in the Navy (helicopter pilot)  I even got my officer of the deck qualification on the 40,000ton USS IWO JIMA (LHD7).  So I got the rules of the road and stuff.  What I lack is knowledge on what a good day sailor will be that's easy to set up (solo) while the kids impatiently wait to jump in.   It's all about having fun, teaching the kids, and getting on (and in) the water.

I have a cousin who circumnavigated the globe on his 40' ketch back in the 80's and my dad helped him on the transatlantic passage.  I want to micro-scale that and give the boys some nautical adventures of their own.

So far the suncat seems to be the #1 option, although a flying scot type boat might be more fun and lively, not sure if I need that with a skittish wife and 2 boys.

While you're researching boats, order a copy of Arthur Ransome's "Swallows and Amazons", and read it aloud to your boys. It will get everyone in the spirit of things. 

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5 hours ago, zimm said:

No plans to camp or overnight on the little boat.  If I wanted to do that, I'd need 4 bunks and I'm back to a Catalina 22, which is too much to tow and set up.

Another "factor" is the homeowner's association rules at our new house (yes, they accepted our offer), says that any boat has to be out of site from the road.  Luckily there's a 6' privacy fence all around the back and side yard.  The sea cat sits 8' off the ground on the trailer, that could be a potential issue if some doodley old lady complains about seeing a mast poking up.   I'll have to get the fence company to put a wider gate in the back, but that shouldn't be an issue to keep the boat at home and save a LOT of storage money and hassle of off-site storage.

I mentioned the seascape 18 earlier, noting that it was beyond your stated budget...

They are capable of planing, but can be sailed conservatively and camped on with a family like yours. They do it Europe all the time. Expensive though...

https://www.thinkseascape.com/boat/seascape-18/performance-simplified/

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When my kids were that size we had a Weta. Was great. Kids miss it.

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7 hours ago, Christian said:

Horses for courses - trying to sell "your" boat as the greatest thing that has ever floated on water seems more like an attempt to convince yourself that you have the worlds best boat.  And it may be for you but not necessarily for others.  Don't try to oversell it.

Oh - BTW - you forgot the little detail that one of those tubs weigh double to triple of some of the other daysailers mentioned here - not an insignificant hassle when having to manhandle it by yourself and moving it in/out of your backyard

I'm torn between telling you to go fuck yourself and rhetorically asking if you've even read the thread?

I don't own a suncat and have never set foot on one--my boat lives in the water so I largely don't care about rig time, and 99% of my sailing is without my family, so while they need to fit in my boat it's not the priority.  OP wants a $5-$10k boat that he can tow behind a jeep, sail with a 5 and 7 year old and a skittish wife, and rig before any of the three get bored.  Compac's goofy mastendr system is designed for just this guy and if his priorities are as he says it's damn hard to beat.  I was going to suggest a hobie bravo--super quick to rig, nothing to bonk an inattentive kid in the head, "fast" enough to be fun to elementary kids...  but I read the thread.  He wants the whole family to come.

Horse for courses.  Asshat.

If money were no object I'd buy a seascape myself...  but zimm says rigging time is a big priority and I don't see how the seascape is better than anything else listed, and at three times the price.

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