zimm

Trailerable day sailor recommendations. 2 adults, 2 kids. Easy to set up.

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Swift 18! If you can get them that side of the pond. We used to keep ours on the trailer, and stepping the mast was never an issue. 

Sandwich construction to, so really solid little boat. And 4 decent bunks downstairs.

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zimm,

I second the find a good small boat with no cabin...the Scot is a good bet in that regard.  We grew up (4 kids) starting around the same age as yours sailing a wooden Blue Jay (13 foot version of a Lightning).  Any boat with any amount of fixed keel and cabin will be too tall to hide in the back yard, harder to tow/launch, etc.  

We all helped set up the Blue Jay (Dad gave everyone a set of tasks), but even with that sized boat, rigging almost any boat is realistically at least a 15 minute minimum evolution...so have a plan to keep the kiddios entertained in some manner..

I also think in the beginning especially, there is no real need for a cabin of any kind.  You want to keep the sailing adventures short and sweet.  You want to come off the water while the kids/wife are still having fun.  You want the kids to say "but we're not ready to go in, we don't want to stop yet.  Can't we stay out a little longer?"  That leaves them with a very positive memory of the day's sailing, and they will be much more likely to want to go again.  You want to sail (initially) on days that are warm (not hot) with a mild breeze, and build towards more adventurous wx...just think of it like your first couple FAM flights in a T-34 and you'll be fine.  Day time, VFR, no crosswind, etc... 

If after a couple years of this, everyone loves it and wants a bigger boat, then its an easy step up to a small keel boat with a cabin, and if you've keep it in nice shape, a Scot (or something similar) will be easy to sell for close to what you bought it for...

Crash

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I would make a pitch for a Marshall Sanderling catboat, but it might be hard to find one in S Florida. We have one in RI and every year I am tempted to trailer it down to Miami for the Holidays (my wife's family is from Miami) because it would be perfect for exploring Biscayne Bay and the upper Keys. We have two kids (5 and 9) and camp cruise on it -they all sleep below and I sleep in the cockpit under a boom tent, but mainly we just daysail to one of our favorite spots to drop anchor and swim, etc. The cockpit is massive and comfortable and the boat is super stable but only draws 19" with the board up. Trailering is easy-we have the tabernacle mast so all you have to do is unpin the forestay-you don't even have to take the sail off the boom. New boats are stupidly pricey but you can find good used ones in your price range-we got ours with a nice trailer, 2 sails and a torqeedo engine for $11k.

An important point to think about is if you want your kids to love going out on the boat, sailing to a destination and swimming, exploring beaches, etc, is a lot more fun for kids than bashing along on a small wet boat for hours and then going home. You want to make sure you get a boat that is a comfortable platform for all of that stuff as much as it is a good sailer.

All of that being said catboats are a little quirky and you have to learn a few techniques to sail them, but once you do the Sanderling actually sails surprisingly well and will take good care of you.

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Flying Scot has been repeatedly recommended, including by me. I still think it's one of the better choices for the OP. However, he might want to take a look at this thread before making any decision. 

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1 hour ago, Svanen said:

Flying Scot has been repeatedly recommended, including by me. I still think it's one of the better choices for the OP. However, he might want to take a look at this thread before making any decision. 

Wow, these people need to get a fuckin' paddleboat, not a sailboat. Not one of them mentioned the main drawbacks of the Flying Scot that I see, which are the finicky halyard winches (cannot raise or lower the sails quickly, in fact if you lose the handle you can't lower the sail at all), the need for a ladder to get in it on the trailer, and the lack of flotation/self-bailing.

It's for damn sure not too tippy, although it is a PITA to climb back into from the water. And FWIW when I have been teaching beginners to sail, a boat that is responsive is good, they learn what the boat does and what it's supposed to do. If this guy is complaining because the boat is too responsive, I can only assume he either has the mental processes of a sloth OR he doesn't really want to learn to sail, he just wants to ride around on a boat.

But then SAILNET is a bunch of armchair admirals and guys who sit around on heavy crab-crushers daydreaming about rounding Cape Horn instead of actually going out sailing; so it ain't too surprising.

FB- Doug

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On 2/24/2018 at 7:40 PM, zimm said:

Funny you say that.  I was back to thinking the flying scot might be the answer.  Simple, light, easy to trailer.  I think the next logical step is to take the coconut grove sailing club's 2 day flying scot school.  For $650, that will not only give us a good education, but decide if the flying scot is the right boat for us, or we need to step up to a sun cat or mariner 19.

My father has a bit of sailing experience and thinks a dinghy class boat will be much better for us to learn on.   Then someday, after a move (we're military), we take advantage of a military marina with a cheap slip and get a real cruiser for overnighting on.

That is certainly a good way to try out a flying snot to see if it something for you.  just as I mentioned that you are welcome to try the daughters daysailer to see if that is what works.  It is always good to go sail boats rather than just getting "advice" from someone on the web, who might not exactly know what it is that you are looking for

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The Scot only sits high on a narrow trailer. On a wide trailer they sit the same as a lightning. No need for a ladder.

The winches are a bit of a pain, but 6000 Scots sailors seem to put up with them. You DO get used to them. One plus is not having halyard tails to deal with. Most Scot sailors have the winch handle on a lanyard or carry an extra. I do both. Belt and suspenders. 

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Oh boy- I just changed my whole perspective on what kind of boat I need:

After watching some really boring youtube videos (does anyone make a decent sailing video?) with the wife, she had a very big change of plans that changes my plans.   Here's the bombshell:    "Don't expect me to go every time.  I want you to be sailing with the boys over the summer while they're out of school, and I'm at work.".

OK....    So now I need a boat that can be solo-rigged and sailed with 2 boys and room for "mom" to go when she can.

Requirement 2:  I'm pretty sure I need an outboard if I want to take it to my parent's house.  They have a 30min long no wake zone though a very narrow canal to get out into Charolette harbor from their back yard.  Don't think I want to do that without an motor.

So now I'm thinking Small, light, yet access to the transom for motor.  Flying Scot has that long after deck that will make that problematic.

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, zimm said:

Oh boy- I just changed my whole perspective on what kind of boat I need:

After watching some really boring youtube videos (does anyone make a decent sailing video?) with the wife, she had a very big change of plans that changes my plans.   Here's the bombshell:    "Don't expect me to go every time.  I want you to be sailing with the boys over the summer while they're out of school, and I'm at work.".

OK....    So now I need a boat that can be solo-rigged and sailed with 2 boys and room for "mom" to go when she can.

Requirement 2:  I'm pretty sure I need an outboard if I want to take it to my parent's house.  They have a 30min long no wake zone though a very narrow canal to get out into Charolette harbor from their back yard.  Don't think I want to do that without an motor.

So now I'm thinking Small, light, yet access to the transom for motor.  Flying Scot has that long after deck that will make that problematic.

 

 

 

In that case, you're looking for something much smaller than a Scot. It would be a bit too much for one adult and two small boys, IMO. Or something with ballast (which would make trailering/launching a bit more difficult). A SunCat or PicnicCat like Tom suggested, if sedate speed is ok by you. Maybe a Day Sailer or Boston Whaler Harpoon for moderate performance. At the sportier end, perhaps a Nomad. SAist Zero the Hero has his up for sale after he finishes the Everglades Challange...excellent condition, recent refit.

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Where’s the Viper crowd in this discussion? Seems to tick the boxes, apparently as fun or sedate as one wishes, plus people let their 4-year olds helm, so...?

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Wayfarer.

   If you can get one set up for cruising with a furler and OB bracket, maybe even a boom tent, then so much the better. Small OB will go in the stern locker. 

Cheers,

               W.

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9 hours ago, zimm said:

OK....    So now I need a boat that can be solo-rigged and sailed with 2 boys and room for "mom" to go when she can.

Requirement 2:  I'm pretty sure I need an outboard if I want to take it to my parent's house.  They have a 30min long no wake zone though a very narrow canal to get out into Charolette harbor from their back yard.  Don't think I want to do that without an motor.

Picnic cat would be my top pick.

Same rigging procedure as a Sun Cat: tip up mast, pin and tighten forestay, go sailing.

The cockpit is almost 10' long. Lots of room for wife or guests but still very easy for one person to rig, launch, and sail.

More fun to sail and does better in light air than a Sun Cat. Like the Scot, this is not an easy boat to capsize and it's one that's almost certain to need a powerboat to get it back up if you do capsize. So don't capsize it. And have a plan if you do.

The tiny 2-3.5 hp outboards are plenty of power. I like the Honda because I like the centrifugal clutch and air cooling. The clutch is easier especially when spinning the engine around backward for reverse power. The air cooling because I run aground a lot. Sail Charlotte Harbor and you will too, but it's good fun in a Picnic Cat. Everything that sticks down is sturdy metal and the bottom is soft. No harm, no foul.

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Taser,  Wayfarer, Scot - in that order.

Oh,  if you hate the winches,  take 'em off.  I worked at a sailing school and we ditched them and went to rope tails on the halyards.  Worked fine. 

The Taser is harder to find,  but is smaller and sails great,  as does the Wayfarer.

 

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If it's down to you and two kids, you definitely want something that you can set up by yourself. You could go even smaller, like an Enterprise, but I think 16-18 feet is the sweet spot for room, handling, and ease of rigging. I could rig my Wayfarer solo quite easily and be in the water and ready to go in 15 minutes.

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11 hours ago, zimm said:

Oh boy- I just changed my whole perspective on what kind of boat I need:

After watching some really boring youtube videos (does anyone make a decent sailing video?) with the wife, she had a very big change of plans that changes my plans.   Here's the bombshell:    "Don't expect me to go every time.  I want you to be sailing with the boys over the summer while they're out of school, and I'm at work.".

OK....    So now I need a boat that can be solo-rigged and sailed with 2 boys and room for "mom" to go when she can.

Requirement 2:  I'm pretty sure I need an outboard if I want to take it to my parent's house.  They have a 30min long no wake zone though a very narrow canal to get out into Charolette harbor from their back yard.  Don't think I want to do that without an motor.

So now I'm thinking Small, light, yet access to the transom for motor.  Flying Scot has that long after deck that will make that problematic.

 

 

 

 

Is this too far away, Sanford?

https://orlando.craigslist.org/boa/d/sailboat/6507396351.html

This is a Triton 21, one of the most underappreciated boats ever designed/built. Looks like it's sitting on a Catalina 22 trailer, could be lowered a foot or so. Simple rig, I can set it up single handed so I bet you could. Cabin to get out of the sun/rain and for stowage of things you don't need to haul back & forth every time. Sails quite well, not a sport boat but will be fun. A good friend of mine had one years back and I have been hoping to find one myself ever since.

At this price you can buy a new motor, new sails, and refit it pretty extensively, and still be under your budget. And it's stable/comfy enough that your wife will like it on those occasions she joins you

FB- Doug

 

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22 hours ago, RKoch said:

The Scot only sits high on a narrow trailer. On a wide trailer they sit the same as a lightning. No need for a ladder.

The winches are a bit of a pain, but 6000 Scots sailors seem to put up with them. You DO get used to them. One plus is not having halyard tails to deal with. Most Scot sailors have the winch handle on a lanyard or carry an extra. I do both. Belt and suspenders. 

I guess I've never seen one on a trailer like you describe. I can sit on the deck of a Lightning from standing next to it. The Buccaneer sits slightly higher. Never seen a Scot with a deck lower than clamber-up height.

Some years ago I sailed Scots quite lot, even crewed for Graham Hall a few times (learned a lot). Off the reservation, everybody says the halyard winches are just a minor quirk you can easily get used to. Among themselves, almost everybody hates them (except Graham whom I don't think hated anything or anybody). I fucking hated them. I skippered a friend's Scot off and on, for racing, an arrangement I managed to gracefully pull out of. Nowadays I don't sail Scots any more, I don't sail J24s or Thistles either. OTOH I have been very happy sailing my (rerigged) AMF Puffer, so it's not like I'm a snob or anything.

I've been accused of hating San Juan 21s, but I still sail them on special occasions. Usually it involves heavy drinking.

Mrs Steam says I have an overdeveloped appreciation of the shortcomings of others. I should work on that.

FB- Doug

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32 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I guess I've never seen one on a trailer like you describe. I can sit on the deck of a Lightning from standing next to it. The Buccaneer sits slightly higher. Never seen a Scot with a deck lower than clamber-up height.

Some years ago I sailed Scots quite lot, even crewed for Graham Hall a few times (learned a lot). Off the reservation, everybody says the halyard winches are just a minor quirk you can easily get used to. Among themselves, almost everybody hates them (except Graham whom I don't think hated anything or anybody). I fucking hated them. I skippered a friend's Scot off and on, for racing, an arrangement I managed to gracefully pull out of. Nowadays I don't sail Scots any more, I don't sail J24s or Thistles either. OTOH I have been very happy sailing my (rerigged) AMF Puffer, so it's not like I'm a snob or anything.

I've been accused of hating San Juan 21s, but I still sail them on special occasions. Usually it involves heavy drinking.

Mrs Steam says I have an overdeveloped appreciation of the shortcomings of others. I should work on that.

FB- Doug

On a standard trailer, the boat has to sit high in order to clear the fenders. On a wide trailer, the boat sits low, between the fenders. Lightnings have had them for decades. They've been available for Scots in aluminum for over 10 years now, recently in galvanized.

 

image.jpeg

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On 2018-02-26 at 10:03 PM, Steam Flyer said:

Wow, these people need to get a fuckin' paddleboat, not a sailboat. Not one of them mentioned the main drawbacks of the Flying Scot that I see, which are the finicky halyard winches (cannot raise or lower the sails quickly, in fact if you lose the handle you can't lower the sail at all), the need for a ladder to get in it on the trailer, and the lack of flotation/self-bailing.

Posts 33, 36 and 39 in the Sailnet thread expressly complained about the halyard winches.

14 hours ago, zimm said:

I'm pretty sure I need an outboard if I want to take it to my parent's house.  They have a 30min long no wake zone though a very narrow canal to get out into Charolette harbor from their back yard.  Don't think I want to do that without an motor.

I wouldn't want to do that with a motor. 30 minutes x 2 (out and return) is a whole hour of slow motoring down a narrow canal every time you want to go out for a sail. That's no fun at all, and a real impediment to use of the boat.

You really need to find somewhere else to keep the boat: one where you will have easier and quicker access to the water.

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The halyard system totally sucks on a Scot.  Also the transom sucks.  The outboard.sits way back and you have to sit on top out.of the cockpit to run an outboard. 

Despite all this what I worried about the most was capsizing with the family.  We were sailing in cold water so it would quickly become dangerous at best.  For this reason I was so cautious if the wind came up.  I almost became a worry wort, but t silently as I didn't want to take the fun away.  I was glad to move.up to a keel boat.  Just my two cents as a former flying scot owner. 

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The entire rigging process for a Picnic Cat, edited slightly by me, is shown in the first 23 seconds of this video. Yes, that's seconds, not minutes.

I have the original video someplace and could tell you how long it really took exactly, but the answer is about a minute. I just didn't want to bore viewers with two old guys futzing around.

 

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5 hours ago, Rainy Day Sailor said:

I was so cautious if the wind came up.  I almost became a worry wort

Ahem.

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7 hours ago, Svanen said:

Posts 33, 36 and 39 in the Sailnet thread expressly complained about the halyard winches.

I wouldn't want to do that with a motor. 30 minutes x 2 (out and return) is a whole hour of slow motoring down a narrow canal every time you want to go out for a sail. That's no fun at all, and a real impediment to use of the boat.

You really need to find somewhere else to keep the boat: one where you will have easier and quicker access to the water.

NO, the boat won't be kept at my parents house.  I was thinking when we visit them every couple months, I could tow the boat with us.  They don't have a boat yet.  Launch it at ramp down the street, and keep tied up at their dock for the weekend.

My normal routine will be a 45 min tow down to biscayne bay and launch at a ramp.

I checked out the wayfarer, but where do you sit?  I don't think I want my boys up on the rail.  Wife would want to snuggle into a corner with a book and watch the water go by.

 

Wayfarer_9.jpg?format=1500w

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8 hours ago, Svanen said:

Posts 33, 36 and 39 in the Sailnet thread expressly complained about the halyard winches.

.....

 

Sorry..... I knew I was going over the top when I posted this. I hereby solemnly vow I will not post one word about Flying Scot halyard winches for one year.

FB- Doug

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36 minutes ago, zimm said:

NO, the boat won't be kept at my parents house.  I was thinking when we visit them every couple months, I could tow the boat with us.  They don't have a boat yet.  Launch it at ramp down the street, and keep tied up at their dock for the weekend.

My normal routine will be a 45 min tow down to biscayne bay and launch at a ramp.

I checked out the wayfarer, but where do you sit?  I don't think I want my boys up on the rail.  Wife would want to snuggle into a corner with a book and watch the water go by.

 

Wayfarer_9.jpg?format=1500w

 Good grief! What have they done to that boat!

  OK, so that looks to me like a full-on racing set-up. I've never seen a Wayfarer set up like that before (maybe because I've never been to a "proper" race with one).

  You want one set up for cruising, without most of that string. There should be mounts for seats in the aft cockpit (though you may not want them installed, the side decks are comfortable), and that centre mainsheet (common for racing and in sailing schools, to teach current practice) really gets in the way when you are cruising the boat.

 Should look more like this:

wayfarer-dinghy-13482765-1_800X600.jpg?8

 

 ..or this:

IC0619_1344_098.jpg

 

 Note furling jib, outboard bracket, cushions(!)  and general lack of required athleticism...

 I've singlehanded a W/F in a force 5, BTW, albeit in sheltered waters with rescue cover... That was hard work.

With the Genoa and full main it's pretty quick for a 16' dinghy. Will plane enthusiastically in a good blow.  OTOH, heavily reefed and with a storm jib it's reassuringly sedate.

Cheers,

               W.

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I trailer sail my 16 footer around Florida and have been doing more in Key Biscayne and the Florida Keys.  I would recommend a Catalina 16.5. There are a few that do the same thing that I do around Florida. One of the best places to launch down in Miami is at the Miami Yacht Club.  I would look into joining that. You can launch at the ramp and pull the boat up on the beach then go to the pool or the restaurant.

IMG_2293.JPG

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2 hours ago, zimm said:

NO, the boat won't be kept at my parents house.  I was thinking when we visit them every couple months, I could tow the boat with us.  They don't have a boat yet.  Launch it at ramp down the street, and keep tied up at their dock for the weekend.

My normal routine will be a 45 min tow down to biscayne bay and launch at a ramp.

I checked out the wayfarer, but where do you sit?  I don't think I want my boys up on the rail.  Wife would want to snuggle into a corner with a book and watch the water go by.

 

Wayfarer_9.jpg?format=1500w

zimm,

What's wrong with the boys sitting on the rail?  They will "want" to sit up there...and in an unballasted centerboard dinghy, you will have to sit up there at some point...wind speeds over 8 or 10 in most boats I'd guess.  Get them good life jackets, learn how do do a good man overboard recovery...practice it on warm sunny low wind days, (they'll think its fun to go "swimming" off the boat anyway).

But if you want a "sit in it boat" vice a sit on it boat, then you really need either a ballasted centerboard/daggerboard  or a keel boat.  The picnic cat is one example of those types of boats.  Ballasted boats are necessarily heavier (for their length) than unballasted boats, so that impacts the towing side of the equation.  Fixed keels sit up higher on their trailers, so that impacts "hiding" it in the back yard.

ALL boats involve compromise...there is no one perfect boat.  You just gotta prioritize your requirements, and realize there will be some aspects of the boat that are less than perfect.  Knowing what you know now, if you can give us a prioritized list of what are the must haves, what are the nice to haves,  and what things don't really matter, then we can narrow the suggestion list somewhat...

Crash

 

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if your wife sits in the corner reading a book she is almost certain to get seasick. 

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1 minute ago, mundt said:

if your wife sits in the corner reading a book she is almost certain to get seasick. 

... and, despite my previous recommendations, in a Wayfarer she (and the book) would definitely get wet... probably in virtually all small open boats, TBH.

Cheers,

              W.

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Thought this could be a rough match --Skate 15 - a  little family cruiser/ race boat we have been working on.  upwind2.thumb.jpg.ce5b136a0ebbc5c61a6c82444262a014.jpgIt is 15' long, 8' wide, and weighs under 400 lbs ready to sail.  There is a 250 lb water ballast tank that can be filled when taking the family out for a sail but when racing you most likely would leave it dry.  There is a very large (for a little boat) double bunk under the cockpit and a v-berth up forward.  The concept is based on a Mini Transat hull shape optimized for downwind spinnaker joy rides but the extreme beam also makes it a very stable platform when sailed conservatively.  Plywood kits will be available in the next couple months.

 

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okay so I will restate O'day 19 easy to do by yourself and very stable. I will add the Hunter 216  very nice boat easy to sail and pretty good speed out of it smaller cabin though meaning more room in the cockpit for seating.  easily had under 10K

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Given the OPs new criteria, I'm rethinking. Maybe a Hobie Tandem Island. Relatively Inexpensive, easy to rig and launch. Has the mirage drives, so no need for motor...the drives will get him out the slow speed canal. Stable, safe, simple,  reasonable sailing qualities. Should be room for two small boys. 

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49 minutes ago, foiledagain said:

Thought this could be a rough match --Skate 15 - a  little family cruiser/ race boat we have been working on.  upwind2.thumb.jpg.ce5b136a0ebbc5c61a6c82444262a014.jpgIt is 15' long, 8' wide, and weighs under 400 lbs ready to sail.  There is a 250 lb water ballast tank that can be filled when taking the family out for a sail but when racing you most likely would leave it dry.  There is a very large (for a little boat) double bunk under the cockpit and a v-berth up forward.  The concept is based on a Mini Transat hull shape optimized for downwind spinnaker joy rides but the extreme beam also makes it a very stable platform when sailed conservatively.  Plywood kits will be available in the next couple months.

 

OP wants to rig and launch quickly. Also is relatively inexperienced.

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6 hours ago, zimm said:

 

Wayfarer_9.jpg?format=1500w

That's one of the new Wayfarer Mark IV racers. You don't want one of those, for at least two reasons: (i) it lacks the versatile of earlier Wayfarers (which are suitable for training, cruising, daysailing and racing); (ii) it will cost way more than you want to spend (count on at least $10,000 for a secondhand one).

Here is a description of the various Wayfarer types. See also "Help buying a Wayfarer". Any of the older ones will be fine for what you have in mind. A well-used Wayfarer and trailer will probably cost between $1,000-$2,500: see classifieds

5 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

 Good grief! What have they done to that boat!

Quite.

If I wanted that sort of boat, I'd buy a 505.

3 hours ago, Crash said:

ALL boats involve compromise...there is no one perfect boat.  You just gotta prioritize your requirements, and realize there will be some aspects of the boat that are less than perfect. 

So true.

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58 minutes ago, RKoch said:

OP wants to rig and launch quickly. Also is relatively inexperienced.

It is a very quick boat to rig and trailer with no spreaders or boom.  Also has kick up rudders and centerboards...only draws 6" with them up.

 

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6 hours ago, zimm said:

NO, the boat won't be kept at my parents house.  I was thinking when we visit them every couple months, I could tow the boat with us.  They don't have a boat yet.  Launch it at ramp down the street, and keep tied up at their dock for the weekend.

If I were you, I would not choose or eliminate a boat based upon its suitability for something that might well happen only once or twice. That's a bit like cruisers who buy a bigger yacht than they need so that it can easily accommodate guests, only to find that friends and family rarely visit them in Trinidad or the Canaries.

FWIW, Wayfarers/CL-16s can very easily be fitted with outboard engines, if that's what you decide to do. Indeed, most cruising Wayfarers will already have the appropriate mounts and engines included in the selling price. You don't need, or want, more than 2.5 HP.

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1 hour ago, RKoch said:

Given the OPs new criteria, I'm rethinking. Maybe a Hobie Tandem Island. Relatively Inexpensive, easy to rig and launch. Has the mirage drives, so no need for motor...the drives will get him out the slow speed canal. Stable, safe, simple,  reasonable sailing qualities. Should be room for two small boys. 

I think the op and family would have a blast in a Hobie Tandem Island...it would also make the canal trip an enjoyable part of the journey.

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The Hobie is cool, but limited to 2 people. Momma still wants to go, but I need the ability to take the boys out myself.

I'll do some more research on the wayfarer with the cruising set up.

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4 hours ago, foiledagain said:

Thought this could be a rough match --Skate 15 - a  little family cruiser/ race boat we have been working on.  upwind2.thumb.jpg.ce5b136a0ebbc5c61a6c82444262a014.jpgIt is 15' long, 8' wide, and weighs under 400 lbs ready to sail.  There is a 250 lb water ballast tank that can be filled when taking the family out for a sail but when racing you most likely would leave it dry.  There is a very large (for a little boat) double bunk under the cockpit and a v-berth up forward.  The concept is based on a Mini Transat hull shape optimized for downwind spinnaker joy rides but the extreme beam also makes it a very stable platform when sailed conservatively.  Plywood kits will be available in the next couple months.

 

That’s a really interesting concept. Are you posting your progress in another thread by chance? Website? 

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8 hours ago, Crash said:

But if you want a "sit in it boat" vice a sit on it boat, then you really need either a ballasted centerboard/daggerboard  or a keel boat.  The picnic cat is one example of those types of boats.  Ballasted boats are necessarily heavier (for their length) than unballasted boats, so that impacts the towing side of the equation.  Fixed keels sit up higher on their trailers, so that impacts "hiding" it in the back yard.

I wouldn't call it ballasted. It has a stainless plate centerboard and trunk that doesn't weigh much, if any, more than a similar fiberglass centerboard and trunk would weigh. There's no other weight built into the bottom. I don't know how much boat and trailer together weigh but I have pushed one around by hand on grass. If I can do that, most anything can tow it.

It gets its stability from its beam and is reportedly also quite stable when inverted. Thankfully, that one is NOT from personal knowledge.

I measured the height on the trailer years ago and posted it on the dealership website. It's still there. 6' 4".

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Wayfarer is a great choice,  I"d like to have one myself.  Only problem is not too many in the US, hard to find and/or may have to travel far to get one.  Flying Scot or O'Day Daysailer are everywhere.  I'm not sure which is faster but like the Scot, the Wayfarer is both very stable and will plane in 15kt.  The Wayfarer is better in waves, for ocean and big lake sailing.  The Scot is a bigger boat with more room for everybody.

Vanguard Nomad may be a great choice.  Being so much newer, it's faster than any of the above, easier to use, and more comfortable.  There are plenty of them around.  Asking prices are $6-10k for what look like nice examples that don't need anything.   You could easily spend this much getting an old Scot or Wayfarer into shape, and still not have as nice a boat.  The only downside is the lack of fleet support, and demand when it comes to selling.

Unless you and your family are itching for a project, and you can afford it, buy a boat that's already sorted.  Budget some for a good motor if you need one, and any other gear and clothing to make things easy and comfortable for everyone.

I've helped several friends through boat buying.  The ones who bought the boat that already worked were much happier.  The others let the project drag out while family lost interest.  Then it became an irritant.

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On 2/27/2018 at 10:19 AM, Peanut Butter said:

Where’s the Viper crowd in this discussion? Seems to tick the boxes, apparently as fun or sedate as one wishes, plus people let their 4-year olds helm, so...?

Outside the price range - both the Viper and the VX One - where the VX would be the easier of the two (self tacking and furling jib) - but for someone very new to sailing it would be a handful when it pipes up a bit

 

daysailer

rhodes 19 CB

and the like are best bets

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5 hours ago, Peanut Butter said:

That’s a really interesting concept. Are you posting your progress in another thread by chance? Website? 

Very interested in this as well. There was an article a few months back about the design in Small Craft Advisor. And there are a few additional photos and updates on the Turn Point Design R2AK Facebook page.

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2 hours ago, blurocketsmate said:

...     ....     ...

Vanguard Nomad may be a great choice.  Being so much newer, it's faster than any of the above, easier to use, and more comfortable.  There are plenty of them around.  Asking prices are $6-10k for what look like nice examples that don't need anything.   You could easily spend this much getting an old Scot or Wayfarer into shape, and still not have as nice a boat.  The only downside is the lack of fleet support, and demand when it comes to selling.

Unless you and your family are itching for a project, and you can afford it, buy a boat that's already sorted.  Budget some for a good motor if you need one, and any other gear and clothing to make things easy and comfortable for everyone.

I've helped several friends through boat buying.  The ones who bought the boat that already worked were much happier.  The others let the project drag out while family lost interest.  Then it became an irritant.

 

Vanguard Nomad is a good call. There was one at our sailing club for a few years, seemed like a great update on the classic concept of a family daysailer sans cuddy. Likely to be dryer than anything else that's not a fair bit bigger.

Also agree on avoiding projects, even though I suggested that $1K Triton 21 which is likely to be at least somewhat of a project.

FB- Doug

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4 hours ago, blurocketsmate said:

Wayfarer is a great choice,  I"d like to have one myself.  Only problem is not too many in the US, hard to find and/or may have to travel far to get one.  Flying Scot or O'Day Daysailer are everywhere.  I'm not sure which is faster but like the Scot, the Wayfarer is both very stable and will plane in 15kt.  The Wayfarer is better in waves, for ocean and big lake sailing.  The Scot is a bigger boat with more room for everybody.

Vanguard Nomad may be a great choice.  Being so much newer, it's faster than any of the above, easier to use, and more comfortable.  There are plenty of them around.  Asking prices are $6-10k for what look like nice examples that don't need anything.   You could easily spend this much getting an old Scot or Wayfarer into shape, and still not have as nice a boat.  The only downside is the lack of fleet support, and demand when it comes to selling.

Unless you and your family are itching for a project, and you can afford it, buy a boat that's already sorted.  Budget some for a good motor if you need one, and any other gear and clothing to make things easy and comfortable for everyone.

I've helped several friends through boat buying.  The ones who bought the boat that already worked were much happier.  The others let the project drag out while family lost interest.  Then it became an irritant.

I know of a Nomad for sale right now. Two mains, one with two or three reef points, two jibs, and everything else. He'll deliver it anywhere along the I-95 corridor week after next if you buy it now. Not my boat, but I trust the seller completely. Priced right. 

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9 hours ago, fastbike slowboat said:

Very interested in this as well. There was an article a few months back about the design in Small Craft Advisor. And there are a few additional photos and updates on the Turn Point Design R2AK Facebook page.

thanks for the link and we are hoping to get her out sailing again soon.

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The Nomad looked like the ticket, but it's no longer made.  I'm somewhat concerned about lack of support, parts, or even an active forum.

O'day daysailer and the Catalina 16.5 are looking better.  I like that you sit close to the stern (unlike the scot), which will be easier for boarding from swimming, running an outboard, etc.   I suppose it comes down to which one sits lower on a trailer and is easier to set up and take down.

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21 hours ago, zimm said:

The Nomad looked like the ticket, but it's no longer made.  I'm somewhat concerned about lack of support, parts, or even an active forum.

O'day daysailer and the Catalina 16.5 are looking better.  I like that you sit close to the stern (unlike the scot), which will be easier for boarding from swimming, running an outboard, etc.   I suppose it comes down to which one sits lower on a trailer and is easier to set up and take down.

The Nomad that Mr. Moon is talking about will probably be going right by you soon. You're likely to see pics of it in the EC 2018 thread.

The Daysailer and 16.5 will be about the same to set up. I don't know about the DS, but the Catalina 16.5 we had at the dealership had a rather high mast crutch that held the mast at an angle. To hide it behind a privacy fence it might be necessary to put the mast on the ground.

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3 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

The Nomad that Mr. Moon is talking about will probably be going right by you soon. You're likely to see pics of it in the EC 2018 thread.

The Daysailer and 16.5 will be about the same to set up. I don't know about the DS, but the Catalina 16.5 we had at the dealership had a rather high mast crutch that held the mast at an angle. To hide it behind a privacy fence it might be necessary to put the mast on the ground.

It's kind of unknown in the sailing world, but IMHO that Capri 16.5 was a good boat. Modern design, some of the stupidities like square corners eliminated...... wait, before I sound too much like a negative nellie, explain: wood likes square corners. Humans seem attracted more towards square (or rectangular) shapes. But molded fiberglass does not like square corners, it's difficult to make and it's weak; -and- it has the bigger disadanvtage that it's uncomfortable to sit on. The Daysailer is a cool boat but it is of a generation of boats designed and built to look like wooden boats, every place on the boat where people are supposed to walk or sit has square corners........ sorry that took so long......... simple rig, sails pretty well, a lot of people don't like it's looks. 

The 16.5 is a much bigger boat, in terms of capacity. Bigger cockpit, more freeboard. The Daysailer has the strengths of a good class association, which is a good support network and also means the boat will be easier to sell when the time comes. If I had to pick between the two, I'd probably flip a coin..... to take people sailing I'd probably take the Capri just because of the nicer cockpit. Then I'd have to see about putting a big-ass spinnaker on it ;)

FB- Doug

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On 2018-03-01 at 7:29 AM, zimm said:

The Nomad looked like the ticket, but it's no longer made.  I'm somewhat concerned about lack of support, parts, or even an active forum.

This is not necessarily a huge problem, although I agree it is not a selling point.

Another thing to be aware of with the Nomad is that it weighs almost twice as much as a Wayfarer, which itself is not a lightweight dinghy.

Finally, AFAIK the Nomad has no class association or OD racing opportunities. That is not a major concern to you, but as your boys grow and gain sailing experience, racing might be an activity that you or they would like to pursue. And of course an active class supports resale value.

 

 

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On 3/1/2018 at 6:29 AM, zimm said:

The Nomad looked like the ticket, but it's no longer made.  I'm somewhat concerned about lack of support, parts, or even an active forum.

O'day daysailer and the Catalina 16.5 are looking better.  I like that you sit close to the stern (unlike the scot), which will be easier for boarding from swimming, running an outboard, etc.   I suppose it comes down to which one sits lower on a trailer and is easier to set up and take down.

My O'Day sat kind of high on the trailer. I usually carried a small 4 foot ladder to board the boat while on the trailer. wasn't the end of the world to do that. 

 for singlehanded rigging many folks set up a little hand winch to lift the mast. you pin the mast in the tabernacle and than crank it up. 

the Hunter 21 does sit nice and low on a trailer and can easily be rigged single handed and they are still in production

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At the risk of being told to buy an ad...

I was just down at the brokerage/dealership where I used to work to swipe their engine hoist.

While there, I had a look at the 1978/2002 Sun Cat Company Sun Cat.

It's gorgeous. I know, I'm an ex boat salesman and it's my friend's listing. But it really is.

As I mentioned previously, these boats sell in the "few thousand bucks" price range. A $5,000 one would be extraordinary. I pity the guy selling this one because it's probably worth, but will never get, the $7,500 asking price.

If the story is to be believed, it was completed in 2002, making it the very last Sun Cat Co boat. It does not appear to me to have spent 16 years in the FL sun. It has been covered and/or waxed frequently.

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

At the risk of being told to buy an ad...

I was just down at the brokerage/dealership where I used to work to swipe their engine hoist.

While there, I had a look at the 1978/2002 Sun Cat Company Sun Cat.

It's gorgeous. I know, I'm an ex boat salesman and it's my friend's listing. But it really is.

As I mentioned previously, these boats sell in the "few thousand bucks" price range. A $5,000 one would be extraordinary. I pity the guy selling this one because it's probably worth, but will never get, the $7,500 asking price.

If the story is to be believed, it was completed in 2002, making it the very last Sun Cat Co boat. It does not appear to me to have spent 16 years in the FL sun. It has been covered and/or waxed frequently.

But it's got the blue racing hull, that's gotta be worth at least $2500 extra.

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2 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

As I mentioned previously, these boats sell in the "few thousand bucks" price range. A $5,000 one would be extraordinary. I pity the guy selling this one because it's probably worth, but will never get, the $7,500 asking price.

If the vendor can't negotiate a sale at the asking price, then clearly the boat is not "worth" that price.

'Mr. Market' is never wrong!

how-prices-are-determined-39-638.jpg?cb=

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With the change in requirements, you have invited my suggestion for the stubby, stable, yet just sporty enough Vagabond/Holder 14.  My other rec would be the O-day's, but the Vagabond is more stable and comfortable.  You can rig it for a spinnaker and learn on the job without any drama.  They are widely available and cheap.  Pic for scale and because it's March and it made me happy to see it:

jay and me.jpg

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^^^  Not a bad choice either.

All the Catalina boats are fine too, and Catalina has always had good parts support.  They do everything in-house, and probably still have parts for everything lying around somewhere.

But don't be afraid of parts support, as long as you get something fairly mainstream.  This is the advantage of boats with active racing fleets.  Just put the word out, even here, and parts appear.  Anything that sold in the hundreds, maybe even dozens, is a safe enough bet.

Modern designs like the Nomad shouldn't need parts, if the boat is complete to begin with.  All it should ever need is sails, or maybe new running rigging (lines).  The builder (the actual human) is on these forums if you need anything.

 

 

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WindRider 17. Easy to launch, quite fast, some storage space, and near zero maintenance. Get a basic new boat for only 10k, or a full option used one with reacher, trailer and small outboard for less than 10k. 

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I've settled on a West Wight Potter 19.  I found a 2015 that has been sailed twice, so it's basically brand new.   It's simple, but get's me a sloop instead of a cat boat, should go upwind a little better than a com-pac, it'll sleep us and the kids for a camping night, and it "should' fit in my garage.  I really like that I can crank up the board and with 8" draft, hang out on the local sand bars too.

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Good for you. Enjoy the time with your kids on your new whip!

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On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 11:29 AM, foiledagain said:

I had one of those Corsair F24, for a couple years and also think it was the best trailerable boat imaginable... could launch it in 15 minutes from any ramp, was very seaworthy for its size, was a blast to sail, and had just enough room bellow for a small family.  But really the best thing was when it came time to sell the boat it only took a couple weeks and I had two buyers wanting to pay me more than what I bought it for....Didnt even want to test sail it because they knew they sailed so well.  The other boats I have sold took many months and in a couple instances years sitting at the brokerage before they sold...for a huge loss.

Might blow the $10k limit though. The alternative is a Tramp trimaran, (Pyramid Eagle in the USA) or Ostac tramp, a lot closer to his budget too, the absolute perfect family daysailer, floats in 8 inches of water too.

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congrats on the boat purchase. sounds like a perfect solution, should be a great time for you and the family sailing her. 

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On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 1:27 PM, teamvmg said:

F-24                Image result for f24 trimaran

Could you show us the listings for an F24 for $5-10000 please and ill buy one myself.  BUT, I think if you take your time looking you may be able to find an Eagle Tramp, Farriers first production design for around the $10k budget and at 19ft with a small cuddy and place for a porta pottie  I can't think of a better choice.

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2 hours ago, Steve said:

Could you show us the listings for an F24 for $5-10000 please and ill buy one myself.  BUT, I think if you take your time looking you may be able to find an Eagle Tramp, Farriers first production design for around the $10k budget and at 19ft with a small cuddy and place for a porta pottie  I can't think of a better choice.

$30,000 for a 25 year old boat.  Glad that made my decision on the WWP even easier.

 

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi-bin/saildata/db.cgi?db=default&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=*&manufacturer=Corsair&sb=5&so=ascend

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I hope the new-to-you Potter will give you many years of pleasure. :)

You will find useful information at this thread. Also, Small Craft Advisor has a review article that you might want to read.

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On 2/28/2018 at 8:16 AM, Crash said:

zimm,

What's wrong with the boys sitting on the rail?  They will "want" to sit up there...and in an unballasted centerboard dinghy, you will have to sit up there at some point...wind speeds over 8 or 10 in most boats I'd guess.  Get them good life jackets, learn how do do a good man overboard recovery...practice it on warm sunny low wind days, (they'll think its fun to go "swimming" off the boat anyway).

But if you want a "sit in it boat" vice a sit on it boat, then you really need either a ballasted centerboard/daggerboard  or a keel boat.  The picnic cat is one example of those types of boats.  Ballasted boats are necessarily heavier (for their length) than unballasted boats, so that impacts the towing side of the equation.  Fixed keels sit up higher on their trailers, so that impacts "hiding" it in the back yard.

ALL boats involve compromise...there is no one perfect boat.  You just gotta prioritize your requirements, and realize there will be some aspects of the boat that are less than perfect.  Knowing what you know now, if you can give us a prioritized list of what are the must haves, what are the nice to haves,  and what things don't really matter, then we can narrow the suggestion list somewhat...

Crash

 

An ensign sounds perfect...  ;):P

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2 hours ago, Svanen said:

I hope the new-to-you Potter will give you many years of pleasure. :)

You will find useful information at this thread. Also, Small Craft Advisor has a review article that you might want to read.

The links don't work, they just bring me back to this thread...

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Welcome back! You’ll never escape!!

Shaggy...

Ensign is a great boat, but the OP needs a trailerable, easy to rig, ramp launched boat. That is not an Ensign by a long shot...

I think he has a great boat for his family:)

 

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Good choice! Potter Yotters are some of the most fun-loving sailors.

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On 4/5/2018 at 9:40 AM, Steve said:

Could you show us the listings for an F24 for $5-10000 please and ill buy one myself.  BUT, I think if you take your time looking you may be able to find an Eagle Tramp, Farriers first production design for around the $10k budget and at 19ft with a small cuddy and place for a porta pottie  I can't think of a better choice.

The Tramp is one of the best family daysailers ever.  They came out when we lived in Australia, '78-81.  My dad and I went for a demo sail, and I almost convinced him to buy one.

It's a pretty tame boat, but much faster than any of these monohulls.  Great if you can find one, but there are very few in the US.  In over 30 years I've seen about 3 -- one in Bethesda MD, along the Trolley Trail bike route.  I rode past it all the time for a year.

HT to Iain Farrier, RIP.

 

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Nice boats.    Such a shame the first owner only sailed it twice, but good for you,   

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Macgregor 25.  Not the early Venture 25 but the later Mac 25.  Has an enclosed head and plenty of room for 4.  This boat was designed for and sold to a zillion families like yours.  They do sail pretty good.  Not a sport boat, but a pretty good sailboat.  Will do pretty good in any PHRF fleet.  It's in the sailboat HALL OF FAME.  Easy to set up and break down.  Mast raising is a snap if you set it up right.  Put it away in your backyard when done and pay no slip fees. 

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Boston Whaler 5.2 with cuddy. All the good gear (North, Harken), designed by C&C, 7' beam. Very sable, and sails great, and nice cockpit. Very easy to rig, and tows nice. I had one for 4 years on the Chesapeake. Good in light air, stable and safe if caught in squall

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Congrats on the West Wight Potter. They're neat little boats.

Unless you're tall, setting the mast up involves stepping from the cockpit seat up to the cabin top while holding the mast. This is a long step, especially while holding the mast up. It's worth setting up some sort of half-way step in the companionway, and also a cam cleat on the jib halyard (so you can pull and get some support to the mast as it goes up, especially the final stages).

Now go sailing and get some pics. If there's no pics, it didn't happen! B)

FB- Doug

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20 minutes ago, Charsel said:

Boston Whaler 5.2 with cuddy. All the good gear (North, Harken), designed by C&C, 7' beam. Very sable, and sails great, and nice cockpit. Very easy to rig, and tows nice. I had one for 4 years on the Chesapeake. Good in light air, stable and safe if caught in squall

Boston Whaler made some great sailboats too. I dunno why they didn't catch on better.

FB- Doug

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12 hours ago, akeeley4834 said:

Macgregor 25.  Not the early Venture 25 but the later Mac 25.  Has an enclosed head and plenty of room for 4.  This boat was designed for and sold to a zillion families like yours.  They do sail pretty good.  Not a sport boat, but a pretty good sailboat.  Will do pretty good in any PHRF fleet.  It's in the sailboat HALL OF FAME.  Easy to set up and break down.  Mast raising is a snap if you set it up right.  Put it away in your backyard when done and pay no slip fees. 

These are built light and cheap (boats cost by the pound, more or less) but are still hanging around and being used after all these years, so apparently strong enough.

Sailors are pissed that Roger put a big outboard on a sailboat and sold a shitload of them but he did a lot to get families out sailing before that misguided but profitable undertaking. He also built a double-size Hobie Cat looking 36' cat that was really cool

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There is nothing to say, but what as been said before.

881-Art1.jpg

881-Art2.jpg

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A 20 hp outboard on a 21 footer?

Did my mention of the MacGregor powersailers provoke that post?

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On 4/7/2018 at 8:44 AM, Steam Flyer said:

Boston Whaler made some great sailboats too. I dunno why they didn't catch on better.

FB- Doug

They used all of the good stuff, very pricey brand new. I bought mine in 1986 used for $3500 w/ trailer and Flasher. Had to strip mahogany and re varnish (my wife actually), but it looked great

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On 4/5/2018 at 1:14 PM, Sail4beer said:

Welcome back! You’ll never escape!!

Shaggy...

Ensign is a great boat, but the OP needs a trailerable, easy to rig, ramp launched boat. That is not an Ensign by a long shot...

I think he has a great boat for his family:)

 

I guess you missed the sarcasm...  ;)

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Here she is.  My parent's picked her up and are keeping at their place until I get it from them next month.  I can't wait to get in the first voyage!

 

5ade2912498e5_IMG_2504(1).jpg.482e262042a8a58c1b8b85fe8d80c288.jpg

IMG_8724 (1).jpg

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Looks great, boxy but good like a Volvo

Congrats again, looking forward to hearing about your sail!

FB- Doug

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