Rael Dobkins

The "LaSHUNK" a user friendly proa rig...

Recommended Posts

Hello Rael,

That's an interesting rig.  It doesn't fix an issue with the junk rig though, which is having the mast/spar on the leeward side of the sail on one tack, where it interferes with sail shape.  How about doing the same rig you have with just one change: move the spar that's attached to the battens to the sail's leading edge.  It can be wing-shaped with the sail in a conventional track on its trailing edge.  The pivoting mast could be further to windward so the spar doesn't swing as far to leeward.  This geometry effectively moves the base/tack of the sail forward of the central position on each tack/shunt, similar to sliding the mast base in a track.

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually messed with that concept at first, I played with that idea for months....

It's not as simple, if sail luff is in a track everything becomes a dozen times more complicated!

In order to get enough size, you will need a flat head sail. It could be gaff rigged, It could have full battens and huge roach..... And this is where it all goes to hell.

Leech Tension! Only pin head sails can do with no leech tension, all other sails with big roach (except for junks) need bar tight leeches to prevent the head from twisting off.

The "YARD MAST" must be very tough, or else it will just bend as one cranks on the boom vang while the head of the sail still twists off.... This part of the rig must be light weight as it must be moved with ease, also it's weight is over the leepod and about 25% aft of the bow. Not the ideal place for heavy gear.

I messed with this for months.... Except for a very expensive rig, that may not be as easy to furl and reef (the long full battens are heavy at the leech twisting the sail and jamming the sliders, preventing the sail to slide down once halyard is eased. This problem has been lately solved with very high tech sliders that have wheels, adding more weight and expense...) Except for these issues, reef lines will have to get tied every reef, or untied every time a reef is shaken out. Not easy considering where the sail actually is.

As for the Junk, reefing is a matter of easing the halyard till reducing one, two or three panels, cleating the halyard and you're done. It takes seconds.

Good tack, bad tack... many junkies report they almost don't feel any difference between the 2. Many report tacking as good as 90 degrees between starboard and port with the modern cambered junk sails.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You may be trying to solve a problem that is not there. The square top sails I have sailed with have been a real pleasure to use...go up and down easily, reef easily and are easy to control sail shape.  You can set them up so gusts are spilled out at the top off the sail automatically, or by slightly easing the main sheet.  With that said the batten compression loads do need to be considered especially on a larger boat, but with the proper system they can be a true joy to use. I spent many years sailing and taking charter guests on a big tri with a 1400 sq ft full batten, full roach main with a stack pack.  I could get that boat up and sailing faster then most any small boat because of a good main sail batcar system.  Unzip the top of the stack pack and start pulling it up by hand, two thirds of the way up start winching it home.  Bear off, turn off the engine, unfurl the jib and we were sailing...just myself, an autopilot and a couple minutes and we were gliding along.  My crew could be looking after the guests.  To get the sail down or reefed was even easier...let go of the main and it would literally flake itself into the stack pack,  zip up the stack pack and it is all put away for the night.  The one junk rig boat I sailed on was a pleasure, and very cool... but not nearly as efficient as a sail setup as a good modern rig.  Also keep in mind that on a fast multihull the efficiency of your sail plan is a lot more important than on a heavy monhull cruiser, and even those slow monos do not sail as well with a junk rig as they do with a modern rig.  There is a reason that you dont see junk rigs on race boats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

That's an interesting rig.  It doesn't fix an issue with the junk rig though, which is having the mast/spar on the leeward side of the sail on one tack, where it interferes with sail shape. 

The split junk deals with that reasonably well, and provides camber.  Look it up at http://www.junkrigassociation.org/slieve

Rael, how does the rig deal with being caught aback?  Would it help if the mast went all the way out to the ama?

I would also like to suggest a possible alternative that involves less heavy stuff to be moved about.  A sail tried by AYRS members and by Bolger has rigid, curved battens, and either side of the sail can be the leading edge.  When used on a proa, this sail could make trouble when shunting because it was powered up during the shunt.  Another problem was keeping the centre of effort behind the steering axis.  it occurred to me that Russ Brown's rig could be modified to use jibs that looks like an AYRS/Bolger sail, and could be sheeted like a junk sail.  That's the first picture.  

Then I built a model with the jib to windward, and a wing to lee.  I could steer with sails only, though not precisely.

I think an interesting rig for a proa would be to combine these ideas.  There is no sail on the mast.  At either bow, hang a jib with rigid, curved battens that extend beyond the stay, like a junk sail does.  The battens would have to incline more than drawn so that they stack correctly.  See Practical Junk Rig.  If you have one common halyard, as shown, combined with either separate halyards or separate downhauls, then the weight of one sail going down will help to raise the other.

Hang another sail from the windward stay, with the forward end of the battens attached to the wire, and inserted into wide batten pockets, so that they can flip around a horizontal axis.  All sails could be sheeted like a junk sail.

When short tacking, use only the windward sail.  It should balance the boat pretty well.  Use the jibs only when you stay on a tack long enough that it's worth the bother.  

I don't know whether it would be less work than what you are thinking of.  I like that there is less heavy stuff that needs to be moved about, possibly under some load.

Proa sloop AYRS Bolger.JPG

NBsmall.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, foiledagain said:

You may be trying to solve a problem that is not there. The square top sails I have sailed with have been a real pleasure to use...go up and down easily, reef easily and are easy to control sail shape.  You can set them up so gusts are spilled out at the top off the sail automatically, or by slightly easing the main sheet.  With that said the batten compression loads do need to be considered especially on a larger boat, but with the proper system they can be a true joy to use. I spent many years sailing and taking charter guests on a big tri with a 1400 sq ft full batten, full roach main with a stack pack.  I could get that boat up and sailing faster then most any small boat because of a good main sail batcar system.  Unzip the top of the stack pack and start pulling it up by hand, two thirds of the way up start winching it home.  Bear off, turn off the engine, unfurl the jib and we were sailing...just myself, an autopilot and a couple minutes and we were gliding along.  My crew could be looking after the guests.  To get the sail down or reefed was even easier...let go of the main and it would literally flake itself into the stack pack,  zip up the stack pack and it is all put away for the night.  The one junk rig boat I sailed on was a pleasure, and very cool... but not nearly as efficient as a sail setup as a good modern rig.  Also keep in mind that on a fast multihull the efficiency of your sail plan is a lot more important than on a heavy monhull cruiser, and even those slow monos do not sail as well with a junk rig as they do with a modern rig.  There is a reason that you dont see junk rigs on race boats.

I totally agree that with proper car sliders the problem is solved. Still imagine you didn't have a boom vang, could you still set that sail? 

That is the real problem and the main reason I put a junk sail into this rig. The "yard" (that's what it is in my opinion, since the sail is attached to it, but it's not attached to the boat) will have to be much stronger, to prevent it bending or even breaking at the goose neck once you crank on the boom vang to tighten the leech. A slack leech and the head twists off, sometimes good, sometimes not......

The Junk, is very, very, very low stress, the loads go into the battens and the sheets pull them all in. Allowing the sail cloth to be anything stronger then toilet paper and for the "yard mast"  I could probably get away with a thin wall lightweight aluminium pipe.

Price is the greatest factor in my boats. No way can I afford a fully battened tailor made main and a luff track to go with it, But I can afford a junk!!!  

Once you reef, The foot needs to be neatly tied up on a standard main. Not as easy an a proa, the sail is all the way to leeward, on a Tri it's in the middle above the cockpit. Here with the junk there is no problem, ease the halyard, cleat it where you want and keep going....

I'm a cruiser, so it's speed to the dollar that I'm after. A simple proa with a simple, low tech, user friendly rig will give more speed to the dollar then any other vessel. Yet to be proved, but I'm working on it............. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, WetSnail said:

The split junk deals with that reasonably well, and provides camber.  Look it up at http://www.junkrigassociation.org/slieve

Rael, how does the rig deal with being caught aback?  Would it help if the mast went all the way out to the ama?

I would also like to suggest a possible alternative that involves less heavy stuff to be moved about.  A sail tried by AYRS members and by Bolger has rigid, curved battens, and either side of the sail can be the leading edge.  When used on a proa, this sail could make trouble when shunting because it was powered up during the shunt.  Another problem was keeping the centre of effort behind the steering axis.  it occurred to me that Russ Brown's rig could be modified to use jibs that looks like an AYRS/Bolger sail, and could be sheeted like a junk sail.  That's the first picture.  

Then I built a model with the jib to windward, and a wing to lee.  I could steer with sails only, though not precisely.

I think an interesting rig for a proa would be to combine these ideas.  There is no sail on the mast.  At either bow, hang a jib with rigid, curved battens that extend beyond the stay, like a junk sail does.  The battens would have to incline more than drawn so that they stack correctly.  See Practical Junk Rig.  If you have one common halyard, as shown, combined with either separate halyards or separate downhauls, then the weight of one sail going down will help to raise the other.

Hang another sail from the windward stay, with the forward end of the battens attached to the wire, and inserted into wide batten pockets, so that they can flip around a horizontal axis.  All sails could be sheeted like a junk sail.

When short tacking, use only the windward sail.  It should balance the boat pretty well.  Use the jibs only when you stay on a tack long enough that it's worth the bother.  

I don't know whether it would be less work than what you are thinking of.  I like that there is less heavy stuff that needs to be moved about, possibly under some load.

Proa sloop AYRS Bolger.JPG

NBsmall.JPG

Cool stuff, very logical too. Though a few technical details to consider. Two full battened jibs do add weight. The main sail sheet will get caught under the dowsed jib, complicating stuff a bit, also the stern is covered with that jib which has full length battens making it even harder to stow.... Shunting becomes exactly what I don't like about bermuda rigs, messing with two jibs. If the boat had through hull lifting rudders in cases again the aft dowsed jib gets in the way....

I will say though, it's a novel solution to the high stress bar tight head stay jibs require, also the low aspect sail you drew is much to my liking. I feel there is great potential if the hull is designed with a deck that could except such a concept.

Unfortunately, the decks on WHY NOT? (my test proa) will not allow such a rig.

Good stuff anyway.....

Years ago I saw somewhere on the net a small proa with a weird sail configuration, it had a sail on the shroud and jibs on the bows... If i'm not mistaken I think it was here in Europe, maybe Spain. Do you know anything about it???? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

How about providing a link to the specific page you want me to see?  Or post an image?  "Look it up" is too vague.

That link is the page I want you to see.  It is the page on which Slieve McGalliard posted a bunch of stuff on the split junk.  The best introduction probably is the link at the bottom, to an article Slieve wrote for AYRS Catalyst.  That link will take you to a pdf of that article.  If you then are interested enough to want further details, you can find them in other pdfs on the same page.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, WetSnail said:

That link is the page I want you to see.  It is the page on which Slieve McGalliard posted a bunch of stuff on the split junk.  The best introduction probably is the link at the bottom, to an article Slieve wrote for AYRS Catalyst.  That link will take you to a pdf of that article.  If you then are interested enough to want further details, you can find them in other pdfs on the same page.

I looked at the page and still have no idea what a "split junk" is?  Now you describe where to find a specific link instead of just posting that link?  I give up.  I'm not interested in junk rigs anyway so am certainly not going to make your case for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Rael Dobkins said:

Years ago I saw somewhere on the net a small proa with a weird sail configuration, it had a sail on the shroud and jibs on the bows... If i'm not mistaken I think it was here in Europe, maybe Spain. Do you know anything about it???? 

Fritz Roth's vector foil proa.  In a more detailed description of the rig I propose, I did remember to give him credit.  The latest incarnation of the design is at http://blog.proadesign.com/, but the blog has not been updated in over four years, so I don't know the current status.  Fritz describes the basic principles at http://www.proadesign.com/   Some youtube videos of models of both the original fixed concepts, and the later hinged version (adopted after Fritz was told about the work of Hagedoorn in the 1970s) are here:

Rigid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gww1ZjGC4A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGCNQFV-7xc

Hinged:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pK4olWjm2k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMetZV5U0TI

Fritz is as outspoken about the merits of his design as Doug Lord, which puts many people off.  There is interesting stuff in there, though, and he also works with limited money and not the latest high tech.

As for the mainsail sheet getting caught in the doused jib, that is one reason why I changed my mind about having a mainsail on the mast and thought to use only a windward staysail and the jibs.  The other three reasons are steering balance on courses off the wind, balance with only one sail up for short tacking (or short shunting, if you prefer), and possibly greater aerodynamic efficiency.  If you were to build a boat as wide as my model, there is another possible reason.  I found that the windward staysail is so inclined that gusts pushed it down.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, WetSnail said:

Fritz Roth's vector foil proa.  In a more detailed description of the rig I propose, I did remember to give him credit.  The latest incarnation of the design is at http://blog.proadesign.com/, but the blog has not been updated in over four years, so I don't know the current status.  Fritz describes the basic principles at http://www.proadesign.com/   Some youtube videos of models of both the original fixed concepts, and the later hinged version (adopted after Fritz was told about the work of Hagedoorn in the 1970s) are here:

Rigid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gww1ZjGC4A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGCNQFV-7xc

Hinged:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pK4olWjm2k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMetZV5U0TI

Fritz is as outspoken about the merits of his design as Doug Lord, which puts many people off.  There is interesting stuff in there, though, and he also works with limited money and not the latest high tech.

As for the mainsail sheet getting caught in the doused jib, that is one reason why I changed my mind about having a mainsail on the mast and thought to use only a windward staysail and the jibs.  The other three reasons are steering balance on courses off the wind, balance with only one sail up for short tacking (or short shunting, if you prefer), and possibly greater aerodynamic efficiency.  If you were to build a boat as wide as my model, there is another possible reason.  I found that the windward staysail is so inclined that gusts pushed it down.

Fresh stuff is always welcome, seen his stuff round the net.... I guess it was just too weird to look into....

I doubt I will ever put such a foil on my boats... Then again on the vid you linked it held her damn good in the breakers, So who knows.......

You asked about getting back winded with a junk....

With the crab claw I learned how to just sail back steering in reverse till I gain enough speed to steer his bow off, I get him to go through the eye of the wind fill the sail and sail off....

James Brett once explained to me how he does the same with his junk rigged proa. So, hope me can do it 2.

If not, let d halyard fly, and yank on it till it's down, turn the boat round with the sculling oar, pull it all back up and go. Though I do feel I will be able to sail back and steer him into proper sailing position again.... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Rael Dobkins said:

I totally agree that with proper car sliders the problem is solved. Still imagine you didn't have a boom vang, could you still set that sail? 

That is the real problem and the main reason I put a junk sail into this rig. The "yard" (that's what it is in my opinion, since the sail is attached to it, but it's not attached to the boat) will have to be much stronger, to prevent it bending or even breaking at the goose neck once you crank on the boom vang to tighten the leech. A slack leech and the head twists off, sometimes good, sometimes not......

The Junk, is very, very, very low stress, the loads go into the battens and the sheets pull them all in. Allowing the sail cloth to be anything stronger then toilet paper and for the "yard mast"  I could probably get away with a thin wall lightweight aluminium pipe.

Price is the greatest factor in my boats. No way can I afford a fully battened tailor made main and a luff track to go with it, But I can afford a junk!!!  

Once you reef, The foot needs to be neatly tied up on a standard main. Not as easy an a proa, the sail is all the way to leeward, on a Tri it's in the middle above the cockpit. Here with the junk there is no problem, ease the halyard, cleat it where you want and keep going....

I'm a cruiser, so it's speed to the dollar that I'm after. A simple proa with a simple, low tech, user friendly rig will give more speed to the dollar then any other vessel. Yet to be proved, but I'm working on it............. 

On the big tri we did not use the vang...just mainsheet on a long traveler.  Vang we only applied when going too deep and ran out of traveler.  The other boats did not have vangs at all...again bc of nice long travelers.

Reefing the big tri was simple in that it had 3 reefs led to clutches... just tighten the right lines with a winch.  no need to gather extra sail bc it was controlled by the stack pack.

Running a charter we knew about controlling expenses too as the sail, track and boom were all second hand-- Catana 52.  Longterm it increased the resale value of the boat tremendously and turned an old classic into a modern performer that was a lot more enjoyable to sail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good stuff, thanx.....

Still a high tech rig of this type is possible, I spent months thinking about it. Maybe one day, When Balkan Shipyards starts making money, for now, no chance!

So we keep at it doing the best we can..........

Keep Shunting, Balkan ShipYards....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Repeated from the SA thread:

Rael,

I admire your enthusiasm and your quest for better solutions.  

I have found that oversize rudders and no daggerboards combined with unstayed masts, wishbone booms and fully battened big roach sails answer all the handling problems you describe with minimum deck gear and, I suspect, lower cost than the junk rig, spars, stays and track.  And go upwind at 45 degrees rather than 55.   I'm happy to advise on how we do it if you want more information.  email me at harryproa@gmail.com

All proa owners,

I have been asked by a French author to contact proa owners with a questionnaire for a book he is publishing later this year.  Anyone interested in completing the questionnaire, please contact me.

rob

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deleting my posts on Youtube shows even more your miserable character.

You are a very criticism resistant guy who wants to re-invent the wheel.

You’re asking us in your vid ‘to kick in’, to help you and even put money into this story, but you are permanent refusing intelligent help from other members of the international Proa family (Janusz, Reto, Jo Oster, etc.). The only thing you obviously have in mind is to protect your ‘reputation’ and cultivate your own image, you are nothing more than a self-centered egocentric person, just a pathetic self-promotion-er! Or do you earn money with your channel?

If you would have done your homework, you could have solved all your problems by reading the thread 26 in Proafile from 2011 by James, Michael and Diazo.

Terho Halme (builder of successful PING Pong Junk Proa) had a motto: only shared knowledge can grow! You should listen and learn from more sophisticated people.

When you want to remain a Showboater, be my guest, I am out of here and  of course I cancel my invitation to Greece! Go on with your show off behavior.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Multihull PEOPLE!!!   MAYDAY,  MAYDAY,  MAYDAY  This is BalkanShipyards do you read us?????

Could someone please tell me how to remove such bad energy? I think the previous post from Mr hmueller@otnet.gr speaks for itself. 

Below is the full email Mr MUELLER sent me,  he also posted it as a comment on my video "Evolution proa rig". Not having time for this crap, I deleted his post and blocked him.

But Mr HELMUT MUELLER is a very "clever" man, he Attacks us hard! He takes no prisoners,  he hits us where it hurts!!! Here on this forum. No mercy! A DIE HARD PROA SAILOR!!! He sneaks up on you with ass licking emails... He KNOWS it all, he will tell you how to do it... He will invite you to Greece, he knows the stuff.... He's BUILT proas! 

Oh, HE knows! long useless emails advocating  the  Crab Claw.... He will go on about CE's and CLR's... He knows the stuff! I replied to his first email. Since the second was about the same.... I ignored it. Well that was a BIG MISTAKE! Never doubt his powers!!! A true internet gladiator.... 

Mr HELMUT MUELLER STRIKES again! The third email is  as low as it gets... He will accuse you of "re-inventing the wheel". He will write: " you are nothing more than a self-centered egocentric person, just a pathetic self-promotion-er!" He will go on and tell you that you are a "showboater" finishing by canceling his invitation to Greece! BUMMER!!!

I feel it's totally clear that such people are destructive to innovation, and for reasons beyond me do their best to get in its way...

Such aggression can only be destructive to progression.

Bottom Line, it's Crystal Clear we can't both be here. One must go, if it must be me, let it be. 

Please read the email below that he sent me. The same email he put into the comments of my video. I deleted it. His persistence is worth admiring, he posted a shorter version here...... 

Guys, YOUR OPINION on the matter is important to the future of this forum. 

Keep Shunting, Balkan ShipYards.

All d best. rael.

 

 

You not answering my second email leads me to the conclusion that you are a very critics resistant guy who wants to re-invent the wheel.

You’re asking us in your vid ‘to kick in’, to help you and even put money into this story, but you are permanent refusing intelligent help from other members of the international Proa family (Janusz, Reto, Jo Oster, etc.). The only thing you obviously have in mind is to protect your ‘reputation’ and cultivate your own image, you are nothing more than a self-centred egocentric person, just a pathetic self-promotioner! Or do you earn money with your channel?

If you would have done your homework, you could have solved all your problems by reading the thread 26 in Proafile from 2011 by James, Michael and Diazo.

Terho Halme (builder of successful PING Pong Junk Proa) had a motto: only shared knowledge can grow! You should listen and learn from more sophisticated people.

When you want to remain a Showboater, be my guest, I am out of here and  of course I cancel my invitation to Greece! Go on with your show off behavior.

 

Helmut Mueller

  

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, hmueller@otenet.gr said:

Terho Halme (builder of successful PING Pong Junk Proa) had a motto: only shared knowledge can grow! You should listen and learn from more sophisticated people.

Rael is sharing knowledge, here and on youtube.   And if he only did what more experienced or knowledgeable people tell him, he wouldn't be sailing or building a proa in the first place.  If you surveyed the 1% most experienced sailors, and asked them to recommend the best design, even for self building with limited resources, do you think a proa would be the most common recommendation?  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, WetSnail said:

Rael is sharing knowledge, here and on youtube.   And if he only did what more experienced or knowledgeable people tell him, he wouldn't be sailing or building a proa in the first place.  If you surveyed the 1% most experienced sailors, and asked them to recommend the best design, even for self building with limited resources, do you think a proa would be the most common recommendation?  

Rael is sharing his opinion, don’t we all do?... and who said anybody should ask the Bermuda rigg sailors for their opinion about Proas, or in that matter about the junk sail on a proa? …and Rael, thanks for putting back my comments. Always better when everybody can judge by himself.  You are anyway a very bad populist. …and as I said earlier: I am out of here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, hmueller@otenet.gr said:

Rael is sharing his opinion, don’t we all do?... and who said anybody should ask the Bermuda rigg sailors for their opinion about Proas, or in that matter about the junk sail on a proa? 

He has put videos up, which is a small amount of raw data.  The conclusions he draws are his opinion, but then, what else do the people offer whose opinions you say he should follow?  The balance of opinion and raw data available to me from them doesn't look any different.  They may base their opinions on more raw data, more practical experience, than Rael does, but if you want to make that the basis of authority, why restrict it to proa sailors?  Among the most experienced sailors on the planet are Francis Joyon and Michel Desjoyeaux.  I doubt either would recommend a proa.  Why are they not  relevant authorities in your eyes?  If you choose as authority people who know about boats that can be built by amateurs with limited resources, Bolger seems a relevant authority.  He even designed a proa.  You can read a report by someone who built it on pages 42 and 43 of Catalyst 1(3) at https://www.ayrs.org/catalyst/Catalyst_N03_Jan_2001.pdf  It doesn't have a crab claw sail.

People who are attracted to proas are likely to be open to unorthodox ideas, but I think they are also likely to be people who want to try out their own ideas.  You should welcome that, seeing that such exploration is what provides new knowledge that can be shared. 

Also, Rael is building a boat for himself, investing his time, his labour, and even if he manages to get a few contributions from others, mostly his money.  If you want to tell him what to do, I think you should offer him enough money that he can make a living from building a boat for you.  Otherwise, why not sit back, wait for what happens, and either enjoy the warm glow of having been right, or the warm glow of learning something new?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, WetSnail said:

He has put videos up, which is a small amount of raw data.  The conclusions he draws are his opinion, but then, what else do the people offer whose opinions you say he should follow?  The balance of opinion and raw data available to me from them doesn't look any different.  They may base their opinions on more raw data, more practical experience, than Rael does, but if you want to make that the basis of authority, why restrict it to proa sailors?  Among the most experienced sailors on the planet are Francis Joyon and Michel Desjoyeaux.  I doubt either would recommend a proa.  Why are they not  relevant authorities in your eyes?  If you choose as authority people who know about boats that can be built by amateurs with limited resources, Bolger seems a relevant authority.  He even designed a proa.  You can read a report by someone who built it on pages 42 and 43 of Catalyst 1(3) at https://www.ayrs.org/catalyst/Catalyst_N03_Jan_2001.pdf  It doesn't have a crab claw sail.

People who are attracted to proas are likely to be open to unorthodox ideas, but I think they are also likely to be people who want to try out their own ideas.  You should welcome that, seeing that such exploration is what provides new knowledge that can be shared. 

Also, Rael is building a boat for himself, investing his time, his labour, and even if he manages to get a few contributions from others, mostly his money.  If you want to tell him what to do, I think you should offer him enough money that he can make a living from building a boat for you.  Otherwise, why not sit back, wait for what happens, and either enjoy the warm glow of having been right, or the warm glow of learning something new?

 

 

WetSnail, I don’t want to make any basis of authority; I should answer you with a changed acronym of KISS – „keep it simple, stupid“: “It’s physics, stupid”. I am not looking for authorities and never will be. People with unorthodox ideas are always welcome and of course they are even more welcome to try them out.

When they are not successful perhaps they should better listen to those who have more ‘raw data’ and more experience. I never wanted to tell him what to do, and certainly I don’t want to give him money to build a boat for me.

I build my own boats.

And I would love him to be right with his ‘new idea’, but unfortunately he is not. He has nice advice from ‘foiledagain’ and ‘harryproa’ and others, but he is not interested. He is obviously not able to take any criticism.

When I commented him on YouTube: that he had mixed Michael Schacht’s old idea of the Spinnaclaw with a Junk sail, and that he scared away Jo Oster off his last thread in Sailing Anarchy, and stated: ”I wish you best of luck for your crowdfunding, but I doubt that you will be very successful.” he was mortally offended and answered me: “…There are details in this comment that are YOUR OPINION. I think your personal opinion about my actions ("scared away Jo Oster", or how successful this crowdfunding will be...) should have been kept between us in the email you sent me earlier. NOT in this forum, where others reading YOUR OPINION! may jump to wrong conclusions.” And then he blocked me and deleted my comments.

I don’t know if generally the people in Bulgaria are educated in this absolutely antidemocratic way, but I doubt it! Or it is just him who takes any kind of criticism so bad and acts in such a incomprehensibly way. I for my share cannot accept such behavior.

He is a swashbuckler and a whisk, and people should know it; people should be able to read all comments and come to their own conclusions.

Rael is using the ‘royal we, or majestic plural (pluralis maiestatis)’ in his ridiculous Mayday post, which is definitely under the belt and shows furthermore who is here the BUMMER!

I don’t think there is any more opinion needed in this matter.

Have a nice day

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Helmut, You commented about me so, so much, as if that's all you have to do in your life. are you really such a board man???

Well Helmut, put on your helmet we're going for a ride...

Have you forgotten to take your medication in the last couple days????

Have you thought about how much damage you are causing your self by trying to prove that others are wrong, when you cant prove they really are???

It seems that you like hearing your own voice, you expect all to solute you, and stand up when you speak. If you are challenged you attack, and accuse others of being this and that.... Do you have a degree in Psychology??? who gives you the right to write these low quality personal conclusions about others??? Only because they didn't reply your email!!! Do you get it??? GOD??? Call up your angels and ask them if they could fly over and knock some sense into me....  What kind of a childhood did you have??? That, if somebody ignores you, you attack them fiercely calling them this, that and the other, on a world wide forum???  

One thing I will say, twice you said you were out of here, and twice you came back. You really STICK to your word Helmut.

I have never felt the need to write someone such a lame reply. But you have great powers!!! You can spread hatred in a blink of an eye where ever you turn.... And WHY? Because I didn't want to listen to your great advice and I chose to not reply to your second email. Are you mentally ill??? Is this enough of a reason to attack somebody and write that they are a "miserable character." and " you are nothing more than a self-centered egocentric person, just a pathetic self-promotion-er!". This you write to their email, On their utube video, they keep silent, you get pissed, you forgot to take your pills, and you post the same load of crap here!!!!

Once again you will have to break your promise, and return to a place you said you will not return to. DUDE I feel very sorry for you, you torment yourself over other peoples problems. If you had enough sense to see what damage you are causing your self. you would stop. It would also cure your ulcer, just imagine not shitting blood anymore .... How nice would that be???

By the way "BUMMER" means "oh, shit" or "damn it". No one called you a bummer, maybe it would have been more appropriate to accuse you of being the bummer then the situation itself.... Still I didn't.

Please take your medication, sit down and relax. Now think about where the CE is on the long list of proas you were ordering me to learn from. WAY AFT!! Fat lot you seem to know.

Though I will say, you win! Your character has put me way off.

Come back, break your promise for the third time, defend your dignity.... I cant afford to lose valuable energy on a Character like you.

Guys I'm gone, sorry I fucked it up. But I kept quiet for a long time, this guy will never give up, he will never lose and he will never admit he messed up. It's always the other guys fault with him. This reply was more for my self then for anyone else. Mr Helmut will put on his helmet and strike!!! By then I will be long gone.....

I'm unsubscribing from here.... He's just too much!

Keep shunting guys, Balkan Shipyards.

Rael Dobkins. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rael Dobkins said:

Guys I'm gone, sorry I fucked it up.

Rael Dobkins. 

 

Still trying to manipulate people? What are you waiting for – that people will start to beg you staying here?

Are you just a dilettant or are you always got to be in the limelight. You have just proven another time who the sick man here is. Prissy people like you should never go viral. And if you still don’t know what a BUMMER is, here is your translation: лентяй

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now