• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Sign in to follow this  
jonas a

Mothquito

Recommended Posts

Probably that the gennaker will be mainly use for those sailing in tandem and not in solo. Some more below. Would be interesting to see on water behavior when they begin sailing this.

image.png.eda0125e0831ae81ec8fd9436cbc77e8.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can’t see how it will be ‘affordable ‘ although I do understand that that is a relative term. In effect 2 sets of high modulus foils will cost a fortune all by themselves.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hej Jonas!

Great engineering, but this will of course be reflected on the pricetag. The outward pointing foils are technically really to my liking, but could be hazardous in tight racing situations.

Lars

also mostly above 60 N

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, revintage said:

Hej Jonas!

Great engineering, but this will of course be reflected on the pricetag. The outward pointing foils are technically really to my liking, but could be hazardous in tight racing situations.

Lars

also mostly above 60 N

Yes. Those foils are an accident waiting to happen ( t-foils are bad enough ) ISAF needs to ban them for inshore sailing. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like a big water- bug. All we need is yet ANOTHER new design to dilute the already completely diluted pool of small boat racers ( of any type ). The reasons that new fleets cannot seem to form and gain traction are everywhere. Could be fun to sail the Mothquito - but lonely. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a crock of shit! The problem with foiling is that every man and his dog thinks they can make a better mouse trap. This is not a better mouse trap.

Besides the point already made about the dangers of the outward facing foils, particularly seeing their overall width, there are lots of other things that are simply wrong. To start with, there is absolutely no need for 2 rudders. All that is happening is the drag is doubling up. What i am more interested in is getting those rudders up and down when sailing off a beach in anything but dead flat water. They say the back of the boat slides in and out but with the size, length and number of tubes involved, I can see no way that you will be able to move it in and out on the water because if there is any load at all, they will simply lock up. Therefore to get the rudders up and down you will need to go out along the tube to be able to pull the foils as they are in a vertical dagger box. I look froward to watching that

The guys designing this seem to know little about modern foiling. They state that "It’s common to see catamarans that fly with a negative trim, that is, bows down, with the risk of suffering spectacular pitch-pole or rollover by the bow". That shows a complete lack of understanding. Foiling cats try to be bow down (and heeled to windward) because it is faster and safer. Besides the speed benefit of the airflow over the tramp working with the deck sweeper, if you are bow down and you get hit by a gust, there is far less chance that the acceleration will create dangerous bow up attitude that leads to the foils stalling out.If you are bow up and the foils let go, there is much more momentum built on the way down and you are more likely to go over the front. I don't achieve it as often as I would like, but getting bow down at speed makes the whole boat feel a lot safer.

I know it has already been said, but the 4.9m beam for the foils is scarily crazy. so much hidden under the water will make it really friendly to other water users.

As a final thought, I cannot get my head around what happens when you capsize but none of the scenarios I come up with are good.

In the words from The Fly (which seems apt), Be afraid, very very afraid!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand how this is any better than what already exists. Same as that stupid new America's Cup boat - how is that actually better in any way than the cats? It's main selling point is that it isn't a catamaran. Anyways, I digress. Why would anyone spend a ton of money on this when they could just buy a moth and have actual other moths to race against. Or a wazsp. Or an A cat. Or a nacra. Or a UFO. etc etc. Also who in Gods name that is buying a foiling boat is going to want to park it on the beach like that while they sunbathe?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, pretty silly design

it's really interesting though because now that foiling is starting to trickle down to more average sailors, people can only really make one design boats that foil, because cat and mono hull single hander development classes are already around.

you then have to dumb the design down a bit to make it accessible and affordable for the one design criteria, e.g. the waszp

and then you need to make something that people actually really want, to be honest, i only really see the waszp succeeding out of this influx of single handed foilers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I like in the description is the dimensions to 2 decimal points of a metre, and then "oversized" mainsail.

Think it falls into yet another dreamer exercise, just that instead of using the back of a school exercise book with a biro during religious studies classes , the sketches etc are now using 3D design packages. Still doesn't make it anymore likely to be a viable sailing/foiling craft. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, inebriated said:

and then you need to make something that people actually really want, to be honest, i only really see the waszp succeeding out of this influx of single handed foilers

Cannot disagree more. The Waszp has succeeded because it had a first to market advantage over the competitors. Now new designs are coming through, I cannot see the Waszp continuing to sell in the same numbers because it is deeply flawed not least because it isn't that much easier to sail than a Moth. I would make a pretty big bet that the UFO will outsell the Waszp going forward (if it isn't already), and there will be other boats we haven't yet seen.

The one thing I am pretty confident about is that the Mothquito is not going to be one of the foilers that succeeds.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Cannot disagree more. The Waszp has succeeded because it had a first to market advantage over the competitors. Now new designs are coming through, I cannot see the Waszp continuing to sell in the same numbers because it is deeply flawed not least because it isn't that much easier to sail than a Moth. I would make a pretty big bet that the UFO will outsell the Waszp going forward (if it isn't already), and there will be other boats we haven't yet seen.

The one thing I am pretty confident about is that the Mothquito is not going to be one of the foilers that succeeds.

You are kidding yourself if you think the UFO is already outselling the WASZP. there have been around 600 WASZPs sold worldwide +120 in the USA already. That is considerably more than the UFO. The WASZP is now developing a solid racing program with numbers increasing. It will be interesting to see what the UK get to their nationals and the USA get to the ACC event. But with 36 boats at the Aus nationals and 25 at the NZ nationals recently numbers are starting to increase. It is not out of the question that there will be 70-80 boats sailing at the Europeans at the end of June and organisers of the WASZP Games in Perth are expecting numbers in excess of 120 based on early indications from Aus and other countries. 

That to me is a huge jump on the competition and obviously its not just in numbers but also racing and culture. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, ASA said:

You are kidding yourself if you think the UFO is already outselling the WASZP. there have been around 600 WASZPs sold worldwide +120 in the USA already. That is considerably more than the UFO. The WASZP is now developing a solid racing program with numbers increasing. It will be interesting to see what the UK get to their nationals and the USA get to the ACC event. But with 36 boats at the Aus nationals and 25 at the NZ nationals recently numbers are starting to increase. It is not out of the question that there will be 70-80 boats sailing at the Europeans at the end of June and organisers of the WASZP Games in Perth are expecting numbers in excess of 120 based on early indications from Aus and other countries. 

That to me is a huge jump on the competition and obviously its not just in numbers but also racing and culture. 

I am not sure whether I made myself clear or you don't want to understand what I posted. To be outselling the Waszp has nothing to do with how many boats have been sold to date. The question is how many were sold in, say, January and then in each month going forward. Numbers at regattas have nothing to do with current sales figures. It also wouldn't surprise me if the UFO would outsell the Waszp and have lower numbers racing.

We have also seen it all before. Classes come and go far quicker today than we used to see. look at some of the Laser Performance, Topper International and RS boats. Class loyalty isn't what it used to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll let you do the maths then. The UFO has about 100 boats sold (not all built) The WASZP has around 600 in the market, both were put in production mid-late 2016......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Cannot disagree more. The Waszp has succeeded because it had a first to market advantage over the competitors. Now new designs are coming through, I cannot see the Waszp continuing to sell in the same numbers because it is deeply flawed not least because it isn't that much easier to sail than a Moth. I would make a pretty big bet that the UFO will outsell the Waszp going forward (if it isn't already), and there will be other boats we haven't yet seen.

The one thing I am pretty confident about is that the Mothquito is not going to be one of the foilers that succeeds.

ok, mentioning that, i could probably see the UFO getting somewhere as well, i just think that the buyer is a bit different

i do however believe that the waszp will still remain to sell well in the future, just because no one will buy say a onefly at a club where there are more than one waszps, similar to how waszps probably will not get into clubs invested in UFO's

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ASA said:

I'll let you do the maths then. The UFO has about 100 boats sold (not all built) The WASZP has around 600 in the market, both were put in production mid-late 2016......

So what. Past sales doesn't give an indication of future sales, which is what I was predicting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

So what. Past sales doesn't give an indication of future sales, which is what I was predicting.

Not gonna argue with you this is what you said 'I would make a pretty big bet that the UFO will outsell the Waszp going forward (if it isn't already)'

The if it isn't already factor is what I have been referring to. 


UFO is a nice stable platform to sail around on. But has minimal performance, a WASZP smokes it in a straight line. You will find it hard to get a racing circuit up with the UFO so its going to be a  more recreational boat. However the WASZP with its cruiser tramps (massive inflation basically making it a trimaran) enables a stable platform to learn on. A smaller rig for smaller people and youth, then the full racing set-up for high performance one design racing. 

Problem is if you don't have a good solid culture associated with racing (think hobie and other successful production classes) you will find it hard to sell into this market as a pure recreational boat. 

I hope all classes go well, people having a crack at something should be commended as it is a hard slog creating a new class. 

Just dealing in facts though..

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/20/2018 at 2:09 AM, Lakrass said:

Probably that the gennaker will be mainly use for those sailing in tandem and not in solo. Some more below. Would be interesting to see on water behavior when they begin sailing this.

image.png.eda0125e0831ae81ec8fd9436cbc77e8.png

It looks like another super yacht toy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, ASA said:

UFO is a nice stable platform to sail around on. But has minimal performance, a WASZP smokes it in a straight line.

I'd hold back on making any statements of relative speeds between the two until both have been sailed in anger against one another at least a few times. The only Waszp that's actually lined up and outrun me to date was piloted by Reed Baldridge, the current world champion. I figure he's put a lot more time into his setup than I have and is likely a way better sailor. Judging purely from the reported polars, they're nearly identical around a course, and in my limited experience I've still outrun a good deal more waszps than have outrun me. My point is that it's very early to make the above statement. All present evidence one way or the other is anecdotal and with numerous confounding variables.

What I know scientifically is that the Waszp carries more RM but also has higher foil drag, but the picture is riddled with countless other nuances. Every comparison across the two boats is apples-to-carburetors, so it's hard to get to the bottom of anything quickly.

It's entirely possible that the Waszp outlasts the UFO over time. I can't predict the future. Andrew chose a good sensible conservative concept and the production engineering (countless elegant injection moldings) on that boat is an outright triumph. Relative comparisons of speed between the Wazsp and the current moth are mostly irrelevant except to moth sailors, who won't buy it anyway. The Wazsp performs about as well as a 2006 Prowler or version 1 Bladerider, which was more than enough performance to utterly revolutionize the moth class and sailing as a whole. It sure hooked me a decade ago. It's pretty impressive that such performance can now be got out of glass and aluminum. Regarding volume, #99 is being laminated about 20 feet from me as I write this. We're further sold out for the next four months, but our capacity is not as high yet, so the Waszp is still probably doing quite well in relative terms. That said, both boats are niche items. Even with a completely stricken production line, I'm pretty sure the Laser is still outselling both of us combined. From my dad's perspective, if you're building 200 a year, you might want to consider chopping up the molds. I'm actually building more molds, but you get the point. There's proven capacity in the market for another product to entirely outstrip both of us.

edit: however, I have doubts about the Mothquito

DRC

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/20/2018 at 3:56 PM, xonk1 said:

Looks like a big water- bug. All we need is yet ANOTHER new design to dilute the already completely diluted pool of small boat racers ( of any type ). The reasons that new fleets cannot seem to form and gain traction are everywhere. Could be fun to sail the Mothquito - but lonely. 

That complaint is as old as sailing.
Somehow the cream tends to rise for the most part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

fastyacht: yep.  old boats become obsolete - just like old cars and old airplanes  

But I think I understand the issue from xonk1:  we're quickly headed toward handicap racing more than one-design.  This is disturbing to one-design proponents.

The Mothquito looks expensive and fragile.  We'll see.

Boat speed comparisons: the only way to legitimately compare boats is to observe sailors of equal talent and experience sailing side-by-side.  Anything else is just conjecture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No. We have a lot of time yet.
At the moment Moth = International 14, while
Waszp = Jet14 (or Albacore--pick your area)

UFO = a newer idea with greater versatility and sailability.

This weirdo thing with two rudders is a dead-end. We had a lot of those in the 60s/70s too. Can't think of one offhand because they fell out of memory. But will be found in old books.

There have always been and will always be a plethora of classes. That's sailing versus baseball. (One set of rules for the bat ball and field...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Mothquito is a unique combination of an ugly boat and a bad name.  There is a lithp gag in there somewhere, but I am not going to touch it. Would hate to be considered  insensitive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, bill4 said:

The Mothquito is a unique combination of an ugly boat and a bad name.  There is a lithp gag in there somewhere, but I am not going to touch it. Would hate to be considered  insensitive.

One of my classmates found a cool name in the phone book back in college: Tharathip Thoupthong. 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

I'd hold back on making any statements of relative speeds between the two until both have been sailed in anger against one another at least a few times. The only Waszp that's actually lined up and outrun me to date was piloted by Reed Baldridge, the current world champion. I figure he's put a lot more time into his setup than I have and is likely a way better sailor. Judging purely from the reported polars, they're nearly identical around a course, and in my limited experience I've still outrun a good deal more waszps than have outrun me. My point is that it's very early to make the above statement. All present evidence one way or the other is anecdotal and with numerous confounding variables.

What I know scientifically is that the Waszp carries more RM but also has higher foil drag, but the picture is riddled with countless other nuances. Every comparison across the two boats is apples-to-carburetors, so it's hard to get to the bottom of anything quickly.

It's entirely possible that the Waszp outlasts the UFO over time. I can't predict the future. Andrew chose a good sensible conservative concept and the production engineering (countless elegant injection moldings) on that boat is an outright triumph. Relative comparisons of speed between the Wazsp and the current moth are mostly irrelevant except to moth sailors, who won't buy it anyway. The Wazsp performs about as well as a 2006 Prowler or version 1 Bladerider, which was more than enough performance to utterly revolutionize the moth class and sailing as a whole. It sure hooked me a decade ago. It's pretty impressive that such performance can now be got out of glass and aluminum. Regarding volume, #99 is being laminated about 20 feet from me as I write this. We're further sold out for the next four months, but our capacity is not as high yet, so the Waszp is still probably doing quite well in relative terms. That said, both boats are niche items. Even with a completely stricken production line, I'm pretty sure the Laser is still outselling both of us combined. From my dad's perspective, if you're building 200 a year, you might want to consider chopping up the molds. I'm actually building more molds, but you get the point. There's proven capacity in the market for another product to entirely outstrip both of us.

edit: however, I have doubts about the Mothquito

DRC

Agree with most of that. Reed is a good sailor. But there is a lot of very good elite level sailors working the set-up out on the WASZP. One of the kiwis did 27.8 knots at the recent nationals on the WASZP and we were hitting over 25 consistently on the first day of the Aussie nationals, so the guys and girls are getting it dialled. 

I really think its a case of what do you prefer and personal choice. Some people will choose the WASZP for the reasons previously stated and some will choose a UFO for reasons previously stated. However both classes have a significant head start in the market and as the fleets expand it just creates a flow on effect. Its why traditional classes survive in bi numbers still. History, Fleet size, culture. Creating a new class would not be easy to tick all of those boxes. WASZP is currently doing a good job and the UFO is working hard on it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The first UFO arrives in Sydney next week on board The Bernhard S .... can't wait to get the little bloke buzzing around...  absolutely zero interest in a class at this stage - he has had his Opti for that, and now Laser and F11 ... this is just pure and utter joy sailing ...

Until another one turns up ... or he buzzes past one of Dario's creations around Cockatoo Island ...

All good fun, and a great time to be a sailing kid!!!  And a sailing dad, who is patiently waiting for the little bloke to set the thing up and then go to school so he can get out for a sail!!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

I'd hold back on making any statements of relative speeds between the two until both have been sailed in anger against one another at least a few times. The only Waszp that's actually lined up and outrun me to date was piloted by Reed Baldridge, the current world champion. I figure he's put a lot more time into his setup than I have and is likely a way better sailor. Judging purely from the reported polars, they're nearly identical around a course, and in my limited experience I've still outrun a good deal more waszps than have outrun me. My point is that it's very early to make the above statement. All present evidence one way or the other is anecdotal and with numerous confounding variables.

What I know scientifically is that the Waszp carries more RM but also has higher foil drag, but the picture is riddled with countless other nuances. Every comparison across the two boats is apples-to-carburetors, so it's hard to get to the bottom of anything quickly.

It's entirely possible that the Waszp outlasts the UFO over time. I can't predict the future. Andrew chose a good sensible conservative concept and the production engineering (countless elegant injection moldings) on that boat is an outright triumph. Relative comparisons of speed between the Wazsp and the current moth are mostly irrelevant except to moth sailors, who won't buy it anyway. The Wazsp performs about as well as a 2006 Prowler or version 1 Bladerider, which was more than enough performance to utterly revolutionize the moth class and sailing as a whole. It sure hooked me a decade ago. It's pretty impressive that such performance can now be got out of glass and aluminum. Regarding volume, #99 is being laminated about 20 feet from me as I write this. We're further sold out for the next four months, but our capacity is not as high yet, so the Waszp is still probably doing quite well in relative terms. That said, both boats are niche items. Even with a completely stricken production line, I'm pretty sure the Laser is still outselling both of us combined. From my dad's perspective, if you're building 200 a year, you might want to consider chopping up the molds. I'm actually building more molds, but you get the point. There's proven capacity in the market for another product to entirely outstrip both of us.

edit: however, I have doubts about the Mothquito

DRC

is there any thoughts on converting to aluminium extrusion foils?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, inebriated said:

is there any thoughts on converting to aluminium extrusion foils?

About as much thought as I've put into converting to a wooden spar.

DRC

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So no original windsurfer-style teak boom is in the offing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this