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Defending an existing PHRF rating

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Need ideas (that have worked in the past) on how to convince the newish group of handicappers from dinging a boat that has done well for the past 8 years.

Existing rating is same as 'similar' light air locations. 40+ yr old Mulls design has been well cared for and has adjusting genoa cars and backstay and bottom cleaned regularly.

Thought it a good idea to ask (but if LR is here, maybe not). Flame away and Sail Safe!

 

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Someone has protested your rating because of your consistently good performance and their poor performance. It must be because of your favorable rating because they are such good sailors. Yeah right.
 
Remember that PHRF rates the boat and not the sailor. All things being equal a very good sailor will always beat a pretty good sailor
 
The most important thing is to go in to rating review with fact based arguments NOT an emotional argument.
 
Compare you boat to other similar boats in the local  PHRF fleet. Look at waterline length,draft, displacement, sail area. Compare sail area displacement ratio of the other boats and your boat and plot that in a graph. 
 
Compare your rating with the ratings for your boat in other PHRF areas. If any of the other boats in your area are represented it other PHRFares include them. 
 
Go back to the races you did for the past 8 years, further if possible, record your performance race by race and year by year. Plot the results in graphical form. You want to show consistent performance or better, improving performance.
 
Present all the above data in graphical form: a  good graph is worth many pages of techno babble.
 
Present details on how you maintain you boat: bottom preparation, equipment upgrade/replacement, sail replacement cycle
 
Talk about your crew, how long they have sailed with you, how you train, their proficiency, their ability to fill any position at need.
 
When you go into the meeting give each member of the handicap committee a packet, not more than two or three pages, of the above analysis. When you make your presentation talk to those points, explaining how you developed the data. Avoid any Ad hominem argument.
 
Remember! PHRF rates the boat NOT the sailor. Slap them upside the head with that. Prove that your boat is no better than other boats of your rating class and that your success is due to superior boat preparation, superior sailing ability and consistent crew work.
 
 
 

 

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Everything said above. 

 

Also with ratings, since it is a new group, you don't know how it is coming so don't start with an adversial tone. Informative and work with the group. Their focus should be to ensure equity and parity. If their review process increases your rating, don't target them, read their findings and humbly ask them to apply the same methodology to the rest of the fleet. 

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what area

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43 minutes ago, sailorman44 said:
Remember! PHRF rates the boat NOT the sailor. 

If you say so ...

While sailorman44 has given you some good tips, there is another (easier, better) option: just sail IRC. It may cost a bit more, but you won't have to worry about all the subjectivity, 'politics' and parochialism that so plague PHRF.

As the t-shirts say: "Friends don't let friends sail PHRF".

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In Cape Town we have moved to ORC and it has been a great success so far. Lots of very tight racing.

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Svanen, In most of the US PHRF is the only option.  Rate the boat not the sailor is what PHRF clams. Make them stick to it. PHRF also assumes that the boat is well prepared, well sailed, and has good sails.

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11 hours ago, sailorman44 said:
Someone has protested your rating because of your consistently good performance and their poor performance. It must be because of your favorable rating because they are such good sailors. Yeah right.
 
Remember that PHRF rates the boat and not the sailor. All things being equal a very good sailor will always beat a pretty good sailor
 
The most important thing is to go in to rating review with fact based arguments NOT an emotional argument.
 
Compare you boat to other similar boats in the local  PHRF fleet. Look at waterline length,draft, displacement, sail area. Compare sail area displacement ratio of the other boats and your boat and plot that in a graph. 
 
Compare your rating with the ratings for your boat in other PHRF areas. If any of the other boats in your area are represented it other PHRFares include them. 
 
Go back to the races you did for the past 8 years, further if possible, record your performance race by race and year by year. Plot the results in graphical form. You want to show consistent performance or better, improving performance.
 
Present all the above data in graphical form: a  good graph is worth many pages of techno babble.
 
Present details on how you maintain you boat: bottom preparation, equipment upgrade/replacement, sail replacement cycle
 
Talk about your crew, how long they have sailed with you, how you train, their proficiency, their ability to fill any position at need.
 
When you go into the meeting give each member of the handicap committee a packet, not more than two or three pages, of the above analysis. When you make your presentation talk to those points, explaining how you developed the data. Avoid any Ad hominem argument.
 
Remember! PHRF rates the boat NOT the sailor. Slap them upside the head with that. Prove that your boat is no better than other boats of your rating class and that your success is due to superior boat preparation, superior sailing ability and consistent crew work.
 
 
 

 

Some additional data on what boat and what area would help us fine tune the input.  All of what sailorman says should be followed.  That said, PHRF is run regionally, and run by "volunteers" who are just trying to do their job.  So be nice to them, and thank them for doing their job, even if you don't get the result you want.  

Along the lines of PHRF rates the boat, not the sailor, it seems that many times as a design ages, as the boat becomes more distant from the newest, greatest thing, as it's price declines, as more and more people who buy it are not serious racers, as its deck gear grows obsolete, and it gets raced more and more "casually" with 15 year old (or older) sails, that its rating over time "grows" to adjust to is new "observed" performance, which is slower than its observed performance from 30 years ago.  Now along comes a smart racer, who updates the deck gear, puts a decent bottom on it, gets a set of reasonably newer sails, updates the running rigging, and removes 40 years of old accumulated flares, life rings, and other crap.  Then that person puts together a decent crew and actually trains some...and the "observed" performance of the boat is now back to where it was 40 years ago.

It may actually be the case that the rating should be adjusted, and that you've been reaping the benefit of a "slower than reality" rating for years now.  Dennis Conner is somewhat renowned in SOCAL for buying an old PHRF beater who's rating has slipped some over the years, and giving it a very through prep job, and then cleaning up, much to everyone's dismay...

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21 minutes ago, sailorman44 said:
Svanen, In most of the US PHRF is the only option.  Rate the boat not the sailor is what PHRF clams. Make them stick to it. PHRF also assumes that the boat is well prepared, well sailed, and has good sails.

Yep

Although from what I've seen, most PHRF racing is done by people who spend some time & money improving the boat, most of the time they fiddle around rather than starting from the ground up like you would with a one-design or like Dennis Connor does (and the fact that he enjoys beating up PHRF fleets is, to me, one reason why he is a lesser personage than say Paul Elvstrom or Buddy Melges). Most PHRF races I've seen are won by getting a good start and having the boat aimed within 45deg of the right direction. But it's still fun and there are some good sailors out there.

The best defense of a rating, assuming a rational, honest, well-intentioned PHRF Board, is to point out the within-PHRF-guidelines improvements you've made to the boat, sail inventory, practice, and sailing to polars; then ask how much of that same work the people complaining about your rating have done. Usually it's not even close. There is no rule in PHRF against working harder.

OTOH you might want to consider .......... if you're just hammering the local fleet and participation is dropping, you might want to shift focus to fleet building, or racing one-design, or travel events. No matter how much the local fleet may deserve hammering, let's all try (as SA'ers) to be improvers of our sport, not destroyers.

Disclaimer- I have never defended a PHRF rating protest against my boat, but I have seen all kinds of disgraceful PHRF Board shenanigans.

FB- Doug

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Since PHRF wants to rate the boat and not the sailor, give them data for boat on boat. Don't bother with the overall races, as the better sailor wins and the best the PHRF can do is use that input. Rather keep track of legs, showing the speed of similar boats going the same side of the course. That allows you to show PHRF the actual speed of the boat not the ability of the crew to pick a side or make better transitions.

In the meeting, where one of the 'accusers' was attending, i asked them about their start (terrible) and which side of the course they picked (wrong side of persistent 15 degree) and out into the greater head-on current. I then showed how we fared against similar boats to us that was well sailed and went the right way - about the same as ratings suggested.  I showed this for two different events, up and down wind and the problem went away. The offending accuser sure looked like an idiot and backed right down.

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This is all good info thanks.

packet of info we are working with contain info on crew experience, sail rotation, running rigging, winches and bottom prep.

There are 3 versions of the boat in the USA and not all regions indicate them the same so it makes it tough to make a case.

a graph might be detrimental as a large amount of the finishes had us ahead by a large amount.  Picking the correct side to start and keeping clear air have worked well for us.  No other choice here but PHRF.

I understand the premise of just going out and beat them on the water but I think this is a real learning process (good or bad).

getting another boat is not an option as owner plans to be buried in it.

Sail Safe!

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There is no "one size fits all" approach.

I was going to post a response but quickly realized an intelligent response would take more than an hour.

Years ago, realizing that everyone unfamiliar with what really happens on a PH board were making presentations that were besides the point and neglecting other good available arguments,  I was going to put together a youtube video on do's and don't's, approaches and directions, for PH ratings but never did it.

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so if you're beating the rest of your fleet by a large amount, is your argument that you're just that good and the rest of your competitors are just that bad? Because most PHRF area bylaws state that a boat's rating *should* be examined on a regular basis to see if it is still fair. is it possible the rating needs an adjustment? 

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Oh boy, lots of bad points, good points, besides the points and also counterpoints to just about everything said, except Miffy's comment.

The very best thing you can do is find the Past Fleet Chair and ask him or her to make the presentation for you.

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One thing I have suggested to two sailors, one being a guy who thinks another guy's boat is rated too high, is to switch boats for a race or two.  Being a PHRF governor, I have never had anyone ever take up this suggestion.  Often the guy who is complaining, just isn't that good a racer, and this guy (or gal)  in his/her cross-hairs is a great sailor, with a great crew and well prepared boat.  The reason I believe, the less competent sailor never takes up this challenge is that in his heart-of-hearts, he knows he will get his ass kick by the better sailor in his own boat....how humiliating. Funny...in college one-design racing, boat rotations are done after every race or every other race, so it is not a totally absurd approach. 

I must say that PHRF has a pretty good data base of boat performance for stock and not so stock designs. And that there are not a very large percentage of custom or massively adulterated designs out there. That said, sailing location is also always a consideration.  All I can say in PHRF's defense is we all try very hard to level the playing field for no money.  We are all volunteers and do not want to see anyone screwed. This will not help participation.  Please keep this in mind when going in front of the board. 

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Still would help to know what region, and which Mull design it is your racing...

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19 minutes ago, ryley said:

so if you're beating the rest of your fleet by a large amount, is your argument that you're just that good and the rest of your competitors are just that bad? Because most PHRF area bylaws state that a boat's rating *should* be examined on a regular basis to see if it is still fair. is it possible the rating needs an adjustment? 

Yeah, I would offer that if you're almost always winning and usually by a lot, even if it's because you're just better, smarter sailors, maybe the better part of valor would be to accept a rating hit. Then challenge yourself and your crew to work hard to keep winning with the new rating.

In my view non-competitive racing is fairly boring even for the winners and discouraging for other competitors who are sailing their best (even if their best is not that good) and finding it impossible to win.

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in my experience top, pro sailors on a well prepared and technically segregated boat who have been sailing together for a long time on the same boat have a 20 second rating cushion.

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21 minutes ago, ryley said:

so if you're beating the rest of your fleet by a large amount, is your argument that you're just that good and the rest of your competitors are just that bad? Because most PHRF area bylaws state that a boat's rating *should* be examined on a regular basis to see if it is still fair. is it possible the rating needs an adjustment? 

^ truth ^

When I say I've seen all kinds of disgraceful PHRF Board shenanigans, I mean stuff like refusing to examine a modified boat, or adjust a rating of a boat that was racing in "cruising class" flying laminate genoas and spinnakers; one case I should have protested but did not- my rating was adjust retroactively so that a 3rd place boat could win and event (the second place boat just had their finish score re-written on the spot). Our local PHRF Board told me that a daggerboard boat was illegal, that I would be assessed a penalty for dry-sailing the boat (while other dry-sailed boats were not), and lastly that I would have to drill holes in my boat to satisfy a non-existant rule about pinning boards down. In one relatively big local event, a winner was "assigned" when he owed me time and I beat him boat-for-boat.... some kind of time-keeping error? It may have been an honest mistake but it was one that they refused to acknowledge and correct. So yeah, I'm well aware that there are some jokers in the deck.

All that said, PHRF -can- be a great system. It calls for good intentions from all (well most) parties.

What's the fun in winning ALL the time, even if you haven't stacked the deck? Hell, drag a bucket or something.

FB- Doug

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35 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Yeah, I would offer that if you're almost always winning and usually by a lot, even if it's because you're just better, smarter sailors, maybe the better part of valor would be to accept a rating hit. Then challenge yourself and your crew to work hard to keep winning with the new rating.

In my view non-competitive racing is fairly boring even for the winners and discouraging for other competitors who are sailing their best (even if their best is not that good) and finding it impossible to win.

+1

 

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10 minutes ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

The phrf Committee does not take into account or handicapnskippers and crew. 

Have you been told you are being 'dinged'? 

this may be the party line, but it is absolutely not true in most regions where I've sailed.

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16 hours ago, SailRacer said:

Need ideas (that have worked in the past)

Trade in your boat for a model that is owned by one (or, even better, more than one) of the members of the new committee. That strategy has an almost 100% success rate.

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6 minutes ago, Svanen said:

Trade in your boat for a model that is owned by or sold by one (or, even better, more than one) of the members of the new committee. That strategy has an almost 100% success rate.

FIFY

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Up for discussion are multiple boats including ours for 3 sec hit.  

Besides sailing faster, I might just bring some oatmeal cookies to the meeting.

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46 minutes ago, SailRacer said:

I might just bring some oatmeal cookies to the meeting.

Post #2!

PHRF is so corrupt. 

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All handicap systems are a means to randomly allocate prizes (or positions) across the fleet. It helps to keep everyone happy (or unhappy) and interested in racing. If people feel they have a chance of winning, no matter how bad they are, they will hopefully keep coming back. It also gives the good guys a challenge to try and stay in front.

Given the differences in conditions, conditions of boats, and changes in crew, how much rum was drunk last night, and how much money has been spent, and the different performance profile, there is not rating system to can account for all these variables.

 

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1 hour ago, Svanen said:

Post #2!

PHRF is so corrupt. 

You and your socks need a hobby 

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2 hours ago, SailRacer said:

Up for discussion are multiple boats including ours for 3 sec hit.  

Besides sailing faster, I might just bring some oatmeal cookies to the meeting.

When you look at your recent results is a three second hit even going to matter?

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2 hours ago, Svanen said:

Post #2!

PHRF is so corrupt. 

Hey

That's my line

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I regularly tell people that PHRF isn't really handicap racing. Just go out and sail the course as best you can. If at the end of the day you can say you made no mistakes, you won. If you did make mistakes, you have things to work on. But judging the success or failure on the day by handicap results based on a system where everything is by declaration and nothing is actually measured is a waste of energy. 

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16 minutes ago, A3A said:

But judging the success or failure on the day by handicap results based on a system where everything is by declaration and nothing is actually measured is a waste of energy. 

Inaccurate.  I was on the local PHRF board for 10 years and probably have seen it all.  The *essence* of PHRF is it's performance based.  Here's a litany of claims that a boat is rated unfairly:

  • "My boat has 15 year old Dacron sails, carries a full cruising interior,  broke my mast and had it sleeved so it's now slower, had it weighed and it's 2,500 pounds heavier than the builder's published weight,  my only genoa is a 135%, not a 155%, yada yada."  PHRF assumes your boat is in racing condition, with all the latest go fast equipment and is well sailed.  Claiming your boat sucks is a nonstarter. 
  • "Here's three years of race results, and we're out of contention by 30 seconds a mile and deserve a  rating bump."  See above.   The board will briefly review the condition of your boat (sail ages, etc.) and since some Board members that actually race in your fleet have observed that you suck when it comes to starts, which way to go, sail trim, roundings, etc.  You (and probably your boat) sucks and is accurately being rated as the trash truck of the fleet.
  • "We switched to a fathead main with running backs, but the sail area is the same so no penalty.  Or changed keel,  rudder, shortened upper spreaders, switched to a carbon fiber mast, boom, etc., and only deserve -3sec/mile hit."  These are the big boys and aren't spending megabucks to go slower, rate the modification based on the potential speed gain.
  • Liars.  A competitor complains about oversize sails, interior woodwork ripped out, prop removed, engine removed and replaced with an outboard, etc.  If substantiated, it's not a rating adjustment, it's a one year ban or longer.  Declare speed enhancing mods (actually any mods) to your boat or suffer if you're caught, not 3 seconds a mile, instead a ban.

OTOH, here's some valid reasons to approach the Board for a rating change:

  • Several years of race results that show you are often only a few rating seconds out of the podium slots, evidence you've got all the go fast goodies (fresh laminated sails,  good deck gear, crew and naviguesser) and the boat is observationally well sailed.  The board might award a +3-6 second a mile adjustment to keep the fleet competitive.
  • If you own a production boat unique to your area, not modified, and present ratings from other PHRF areas nationwide that are slower, especially from venues with similar wind conditions, so your local rating is way out of whack, the Board may admit a mistake, and homologate your rating.
  • Beware the claim your boat deserves a rating bump when sister boats in the area perform worse than you do, unless they're  bonafide old sails, etc., bad equipment and badly sailed.
  • You own a one of a kind boat which was rated provisionally and after a year or two of results has been out of contention.  Provide evidence it's in tits condition, new sails, well sailed, etc., and the board may adjust you handicap radically to  keep the fleet competitive.

The hard part of PHRF is it's a performance based rule, so bad performance results risks skewing ratings into a golf handicap scenario.  Also, since it's the bottom of the barrel rating system, some bad players don't declare modifications and can get away with it  (for a while).  Hard to police.

The good thing about PHRF is it gets boats who are not hardcore racers (and some who are) out on the water, with somewhat accurate handicaps for a day of fun, only $35 a year for a certificate.  Consult Dennis Conner if you want to go hard core big money in PHRF; the first thing to do is buy a boat with a lot of sister ships in the fleet with a generally soft rating (which will protect your rating), then optimize the boat without breaking any rules and race it with your ageing AC buddies and collect trophies.

 

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3 hours ago, A3A said:

If at the end of the day you can say you made no mistakes, either you are lying to yourself or your powers of observation/recall suck.

Fixed.

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1 hour ago, axolotl said:

Inaccurate.  I was on the local PHRF board for 10 years and probably have seen it all.

Nothing in your post actually spoke to his point ... let alone contradicted its alleged inaccuracy.

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1 hour ago, axolotl said:

Consult Dennis Conner if you want to go hard core big money in PHRF; the first thing to do is buy a boat with a lot of sister ships in the fleet with a generally soft rating (which will protect your rating), then optimize the boat without breaking any rules and race it with your ageing AC buddies and collect trophies.

Like Elizabeth Swaney, Connor has broken no rules, and is perfectly within his rights to game the system as much as he can. But ...

The curious thing is that Connor is undeniably a great sailor, with so many real accomplishments to be proud of: four-time America's Cup victor, Olympic bronze medalist, ISAF Hall of Fame inductee, etc. Why he is jeopardizing his reputation by stomping on amateurs in the bush league, only he can say. 

Dennis-Conner.jpg

Elizabeth-Swaney.jpg

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I'm not sure we've all got it right on Dennis.  Most serious race programs have to race somewhere locally...there just isn't enough "serious" racing going on anywhere to only do the serious stuff.  Dennis likes to go out and sail...why not?  I like to also.  His local area, and is hometown YC is San Diego.  Why shouldn't he get to race there?  That he occasionally goes out and proves you can take an older PHRF boat, prep it well, and put a well trained crew on it, and do well should be an inspiration to others....or at least that's how I chose to look at it.  I may not be able to do that to quite the level Dennis does, but most of us could do the same if we wanted to...

Too many people want to bitch about how unfair it is that they can't go race their boat in less than great racing condition and still want to win.  Sorry, I have little sympathy for them.  Buy a boat you can afford, prep it well, put good sails and gear on it, and go race it 40 times a season, plus practice time...I promise you'll get better...after a year or two, you'll end up regularly on the podium.

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14 hours ago, Svanen said:

Like Elizabeth Swaney, Connor has broken no rules, and is perfectly within his rights to game the system as much as he can. But ...

The curious thing is that Connor is undeniably a great sailor, with so many real accomplishments to be proud of: four-time America's Cup victor, Olympic bronze medalist, ISAF Hall of Fame inductee, etc. Why he is jeopardizing his reputation by stomping on amateurs in the bush league, only he can say. 

Dennis-Conner.jpg

Elizabeth-Swaney.jpg

I've always liked that DC competes at the local level. It gives us "Bush league" guys something to aspire too!

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11 hours ago, Crash said:

I'm not sure we've all got it right on Dennis.  Most serious race programs have to race somewhere locally...there just isn't enough "serious" racing going on anywhere to only do the serious stuff.  Dennis likes to go out and sail...why not?  I like to also.  His local area, and is hometown YC is San Diego.  Why shouldn't he get to race there?  That he occasionally goes out and proves you can take an older PHRF boat, prep it well, and put a well trained crew on it, and do well should be an inspiration to others....or at least that's how I chose to look at it.  I may not be able to do that to quite the level Dennis does, but most of us could do the same if we wanted to...

Too many people want to bitch about how unfair it is that they can't go race their boat in less than great racing condition and still want to win.  Sorry, I have little sympathy for them.  Buy a boat you can afford, prep it well, put good sails and gear on it, and go race it 40 times a season, plus practice time...I promise you'll get better...after a year or two, you'll end up regularly on the podium.

I agree he has to sail somewhere. And it's to his credit that he does what he does with a lot of transparency.

I wold say that the best way to get better at being a racing skipper is to sail in a good one-design class, perhaps get together on an off-weekend with some fellow one-design sailors and practice specific drills: starting, upwind speed, tacking, mark roundings, spinnaker sets & gybes & douses. This is a lot of work though

FB- Doug

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11 hours ago, Crash said:

I'm not sure we've all got it right on Dennis.  Most serious race programs have to race somewhere locally...there just isn't enough "serious" racing going on anywhere to only do the serious stuff.  Dennis likes to go out and sail...why not?  I like to also.  His local area, and is hometown YC is San Diego.  Why shouldn't he get to race there? 

Certainly he should get to race; and as I said, he has broken no rules.

What I believe diminishes his reputation - and it is just my opinion - is that he has plenty of opportunities to compete in OD but chooses to focus on PHRF. There are plenty of "serious" racing opportunities in Etchells, and he used to be very active in that scene; but not any more AFAIK.

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12 hours ago, Crash said:

Too many people want to bitch about how unfair it is that they can't go race their boat in less than great racing condition and still want to win.  Sorry, I have little sympathy for them.  Buy a boat you can afford, prep it well, put good sails and gear on it, and go race it 40 times a season, plus practice time...I promise you'll get better...after a year or two, you'll end up regularly on the podium.

Absolutely!

I don't understand that complaint. Sure it costs serious money to own and campaign a FAST 40+ or a TP 52; but there are many other options, including those where the class rules limit spending on sails (e.g., IODs, Albacores).

As you note, simply "buy a boat you can afford". OD racing is just as fun and interesting in J/24s as it is in J/105s.

1 hour ago, Movable Ballast said:

I've always liked that DC competes at the local level. It gives us "Bush league" guys something to aspire too!

Good attitude.

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One important thing. Is the board taking this up on their own or is someone who races bringing you up for a review? If none of the board members races against you, they should not be able to just bring you up for a review. Unless one of them is in your fleet, then they should have to file the proper review request. and then they will have to recuse themselves from voting because of a Conflict of Interest. Read your local PHRF Bylaws. SO Cal has done a good job in the last 10 years to eliminate rouge boards or local area cowboys from doing exactly what might be happening to you. If you visit http://www.phrfsocal.org/ look at the class rules (bylaws and boat stuff) and the Rating Review link, there is tons of info your board may want to look at or adopt. SO Cal has done a great job with the Fleet Rating Database but there is still much more.

I am the SO Cal Area A local rep to the Regional Board. It is amazing how many come in unprepared for a review.
I have helped a few local area racers prepare packets and I did one my Zap 26 before being seated on the board. The packet was 19 pages with the old boat vs the new boat config (rig changes) and past meeting minutes to show the transgressions of the past boards (no hearsay, just the facts). The previous boards took the boat from 144/144/144 ( a gift rating) to 132/129/120, which was unsailable. When you get comments like "Well prepared packet" you know they got what they need.

What type of Mull are you sailing? If you are sailing an established class boat and have no modifications that detract from the NRR (National Reference Rating). Here is a link to the 2016 document. It has most classes and their NRR. http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/2016 PHRF Book Intro w boat tables and NRR.docx

 

  • Preparation is the key. As much data from the past as you can get in a readable format.
     
  • Old meeting minutes if the boat has been reviewed in the past.
     
  • Witnesses (crew or other racers) from races where you win or do well giving testimony on the fact you called the shifts, did not over stand and got a great start while the rest of the fleet did not.
     
  • How new your sails/gear and prepared your boat is vs the fleet.

Next meeting the board will review a boat that has a 49 page packet with photos. Race Data and meeting minutes from 2004 to present is included. It took about 1 week to gather the data and make it presentable. A cover letter with a synopsis of the data with page # references is a good thing. Staple or bound so pages are not loose is required and copies for every board member.

Holler if you need more

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18 hours ago, Svanen said:

Nothing in your post actually spoke to his point ... let alone contradicted its alleged inaccuracy.

You're right. 

The only thing he can do is to try to limit the bleeding,   beg for -3secs/mile and show through your 8 years of race records (which is key) that you aren't dominating the fleet, just squeaking through for the overall win in regattas and High Point annual Championships, which involve multiple races.  Don't talk about how your boat is well equipped with fresh sails, bottom, deck gear and rock stars, not salient. 

If they're thinking of a more damaging rating hit emphasize  your boat's ratings in other areas accounting for differing area wind conditions; local Boards are prevented from changing ratings on stock boats by more than +-12secs/mile in your region (around here).

Sounds like one of your competitors or the Board has a stick up their butt(s), or, in some regions an overall High Point win automatically triggers a review of your boat.  Accept a -3sec/mile hit with dignity; will it really make a difference?

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2 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Staple or bound so pages are not loose is required and copies for every board member.

Not required for many years at my Board.  A thumb drive (or Web link to your site) with your documentation which can be presented on the two projection screens at the meeting,  sortable spreadsheets for the particulars & powerpoints for your general argument is acceptable, and, since a rating review involves two meetings a month apart all Board members can download (Wi-Fi, Cloud or Bluetooth) your docs and mull over them for a month.  Much cleaner and save trees.

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So what matters is how the Board in his area wants the data presented...and he should prep it and display it in the manner the Board wants...

I suspect a smaller region on a Lake may be less serious/less formal than SOCAL/San Diego is, but I don't know that either...

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16 hours ago, Crash said:

I'm not sure we've all got it right on Dennis.  Most serious race programs have to race somewhere locally...there just isn't enough "serious" racing going on anywhere to only do the serious stuff.  Dennis likes to go out and sail...why not?  I like to also.  His local area, and is hometown YC is San Diego.  Why shouldn't he get to race there?  That he occasionally goes out and proves you can take an older PHRF boat, prep it well, and put a well trained crew on it, and do well should be an inspiration to others....or at least that's how I chose to look at it.  I may not be able to do that to quite the level Dennis does, but most of us could do the same if we wanted to...

Too many people want to bitch about how unfair it is that they can't go race their boat in less than great racing condition and still want to win.  Sorry, I have little sympathy for them.  Buy a boat you can afford, prep it well, put good sails and gear on it, and go race it 40 times a season, plus practice time...I promise you'll get better...after a year or two, you'll end up regularly on the podium.

+1000

Well said!

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Offer the raters a chance to race your boat a few times, with you on board, and see if their finishes are consistent with yours ...^_^

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3 hours ago, axolotl said:

Not required for many years at my Board.  A thumb drive (or Web link to your site) with your documentation which can be presented on the two projection screens at the meeting,  sortable spreadsheets for the particulars & powerpoints for your general argument is acceptable, and, since a rating review involves two meetings a month apart all Board members can download (Wi-Fi, Cloud or Bluetooth) your docs and mull over them for a month.  Much cleaner and save trees.

 

2 hours ago, Crash said:

So what matters is how the Board in his area wants the data presented...and he should prep it and display it in the manner the Board wants...

I suspect a smaller region on a Lake may be less serious/less formal than SOCAL/San Diego is, but I don't know that either...

 

Sorry, not required. But if I help someone from my area, I specifically require them, that the packet must be prepared so you can hand out identical information to each board member.

Last night an owner came in and handed out individual pages in paper clips. We all had 5 pages in no order to look at and the boat owner babbled on not referencing anything in the pages. WTF. I left my home at 1:40 and arrived at LBYC at 4:30. I expect every boat owner asking for a review or competitors asking for a review of a competitor to have presentable data. Sometimes the rich guys with big boats are the worst. Do not expect me to use my $$ to print everything out.

As a volunteer giving my time Yes, I expect a bit more than most want to give.

SD well, I hear that is another story. I've heard of a rouge group charging $$ and issuing local SD ratings. Not sure if it is true but I've heard some stories.

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All I can say is I'm jealous of all of you who can actually go in front of a ratings review board with real human beings.

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2 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

 

 

Sorry, not required. But if I help someone from my area, I specifically require them, that the packet must be prepared so you can hand out identical information to each board member.

Last night an owner came in and handed out individual pages in paper clips. We all had 5 pages in no order to look at and the boat owner babbled on not referencing anything in the pages. WTF. I left my home at 1:40 and arrived at LBYC at 4:30. I expect every boat owner asking for a review or competitors asking for a review of a competitor to have presentable data. Sometimes the rich guys with big boats are the worst. Do not expect me to use my $$ to print everything out.

As a volunteer giving my time Yes, I expect a bit more than most want to give.

SD well, I hear that is another story. I've heard of a rouge group charging $$ and issuing local SD ratings. Not sure if it is true but I've heard some stories.

Meat, I totally get where you’re coming from...hence my advice to find out what the board wants from a data and format standpoint....and then give them that. There’s a group of volunteers giving up their free time so you can play with you toy. You should do everything in your power to give them the info the need and not waste their time!

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42 minutes ago, Crash said:

Meat, I totally get where you’re coming from...hence my advice to find out what the board wants from a data and format standpoint....and then give them that. There’s a group of volunteers giving up their free time so you can play with you toy. You should do everything in your power to give them the info the need and not waste their time!

Ever go to http://www.phrfsocal.org/ and look what the site asks for. Most people do and ignore it. It really is a good site. Go over the rating review links and requirements. We even have a spread sheet you can download all set up for you to put race data in.

I spent probably about $30 making 15 copies of my 19 page packet in 2015. It is not difficult to read what the requirements are but it is amazing how many do not follow the guidelines. When someone shows up without anything for the board to look at, I'll ask them if they read the instructions and where is the  data to look at.

You would not believe how many in PHRF do not even look at the Site,  By Laws and Rules. Lots of equations in there too.

Anyway, It has been interesting being the PHRF Rep 3 yrs now for VntYC and the Local Area A Chair and Rep to the regional board. Area A went without a local board for many years. I worked to resurrect it. I doubt I will continue after this year and I may not sail much longer either. It is just getting tougher on this broken body.
 

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11 hours ago, Svanen said:

Certainly he should get to race; and as I said, he has broken no rules.

What I believe diminishes his reputation - and it is just my opinion - is that he has plenty of opportunities to compete in OD but chooses to focus on PHRF. There are plenty of "serious" racing opportunities in Etchells, and he used to be very active in that scene; but not any more AFAIK.

That's only if you are still trying to prove yourself. Physically, Etchells are a big challenge for DC, plus he likes to race with friends, albeit mostly very good racer friends. OD racing is part of the scene in SD, but a long way short of the PHRF scene, with a lot of boats and a lot more fun for DC, and many others. DC loves sailing and racing, he's done a lot for the sport, let him do as he likes. And no, he does not win every race, and neither does he care about that.

he does not have anything to prove and I'm pretty sure he does not care about that either!

 

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5 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

SD well, I hear that is another story. I've heard of a rouge group charging $$ and issuing local SD ratings. Not sure if it is true but I've heard some stories.

why are they red?

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Several years ago, I received what appeared to be some good advice from our area handicapper: 

When you gather and present data from your past results, it really helps if those results include your performance against well-established, well-known one-design boats that have been produced in larger quantities and sailed in multiple areas and conditions. The handicap ratings for one-designs that fit these criteria have been very well studied, tested and reviewed over time - and as a result they constitute a very reliable reference point for comparing your performance relative to all other boats.

Short version: Data helps. Lots of data helps even more. Lots of data that includes your finishes against several well-established one-designs is your best chance for a well-reasoned outcome.

Just my two cents from personal experience...

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Switch Boats and crew with the biggest trouble maker and Wendy Wiener in the fleet. Even if he has a shit boat odds are that you will still kick his ass. Then see if they still want to change your rating.

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Why is it that handicapping causes so much angst?. I've sailed in IOR,  MORC, IMS, IRC, ORR, ORC, ORR-EZ, PHRF,and OD.  They all have good and bad points. For most of us, racing is recreation, not blood sport. 

I sit on a local PHRF board. I can't speak for the OP's area, but they should have clearly defined bylaws and processes that detail how their handicapping review and adjustment process works. As has been stated above, read the rules. Understand the process. This is absolutely critical, both from understanding what your role is, and making sure they do what they said they were going to do. This can't be overstated. Period. Also, understand that you are dealing with people, not a black box formula.  If they are not following their process, you are entitled to point that out, preferably in a calm and professional manner.  This process does not have to be adversarial.

If they have decided to adjust your rating, you should be entitled to review their supporting data and rationale for the change ahead of time, which gives you time to prepare your case to refute the change. Be factual, provide data that is clearly labeled, in the format they are looking for, and relevant to what they are presenting as the basis for the change. Bring enough copies of your presentation for all those present.  Provide consistent data, don't include the drifter day where you finished twenty minutes behind with data with more consistent conditions, this just skews things and is relatively easy to spot. Also understand that in many cases, we sail in your fleet. We see your starts, tactics, trimming, boat handling. Stating something like "my starts would make T Hutch cry", or "my sets and gybes are flawless"  isn't going to go far when the person you are telling it to sees your starts, sets and gybes every week.  Be honest, point out where you think you are good, and not so good. PHRF assumes that your boat is well prepared, well sailed, well equipped, and is not going to to give you a break because you may not start well, or your #3 is older than you are.  The intent is to rate the potential performance of the boat, not to golf handicap.  Be clear, stick to your points, know the data you are presenting thoroughly. Know how much time you have, for the love of God, stay on point, and don't wander.  Be prepared to answer questions about the data you are presenting, your boat, your crew. Leave enough time for questions. Please don't read from it verbatim. Make concise, salient conclusions that are clearly supported by the data you provide.  

As has been said, PHRF is data, and performance driven. It is not a measurement rule, although measurements do matter. It is not a VPP based rule.  Production boats with large runs provide lots of data points and are easier to handicap well. Custom, one off, modified boats are harder. Race results are what matter most.  Make sure that you have, and that whatever measurement data the review board has is accurate. For production boats, check the ratings other PHRF areas (with similar conditions) have for your boat, how many boats are racing there, and when the last time that rating was adjusted. While PHRF is not a measurement rule, measurements are taken into account, and do matter.  If your boat is 400 lbs heavier than they think, bring that up, with supporting documentation. Make sure your sailmaker has current sail certificates for you.  

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11 hours ago, barleymalt said:

Why is it that handicapping causes so much angst?. I've sailed in IOR,  MORC, IMS, IRC, ORR, ORC, ORR-EZ, PHRF,and OD.  They all have good and bad points. For most of us, racing is recreation, not blood sport. 

I sit on a local PHRF board. I can't speak for the OP's area, but they should have clearly defined bylaws and processes that detail how their handicapping review and adjustment process works. As has been stated above, read the rules. Understand the process. This is absolutely critical, both from understanding what your role is, and making sure they do what they said they were going to do. This can't be overstated. Period. Also, understand that you are dealing with people, not a black box formula.  If they are not following their process, you are entitled to point that out, preferably in a calm and professional manner.  This process does not have to be adversarial.

Thank You so much. I owe you many drinks if we ever meet.

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On 2/22/2018 at 6:35 PM, ryley said:

All I can say is I'm jealous of all of you who can actually go in front of a ratings review board with real human beings.

I s your area dead?

If it is someone has to bring it to life.

If it is a rouge board, your regional area needs to get it's head out of it's ass.
The So Cal By Laws and Rules are pretty good at stopping rouge local areas from doing what they want. Yea there is a history.

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6 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

I s your area dead?

If it is someone has to bring it to life.

If it is a rouge board, your regional area needs to get it's head out of it's ass.
The So Cal By Laws and Rules are pretty good at stopping rouge local areas from doing what they want. Yea there is a history.

PHRF-NE isn't exactly dead, and they like to claim that every other PHRF area looks to them as a model. Ok, no comments from me on that. But for as long as I've been racing under PHRF-NE, which is since 2006, they have NEVER held an in-person rating review hearing. Everything is done via mail or email on a very simple form. Then you wait, and some time in the future the illuminati will give you the thumbs up or thumbs down. Their bylaws are full of holes and contradictions, and they don't seem to be in any hurry to fix it.

For the 2018 season, MBSA is promoting the use of ORR-ez. It's not perfect, but we're not looking for perfect, only 'better.'

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5 minutes ago, ryley said:

PHRF-NE isn't exactly dead, and they like to claim that every other PHRF area looks to them as a model. Ok, no comments from me on that. But for as long as I've been racing under PHRF-NE, which is since 2006, they have NEVER held an in-person rating review hearing. Everything is done via mail or email on a very simple form. Then you wait, and some time in the future the illuminati will give you the thumbs up or thumbs down. Their bylaws are full of holes and contradictions, and they don't seem to be in any hurry to fix it.

For the 2018 season, MBSA is promoting the use of ORR-ez. It's not perfect, but we're not looking for perfect, only 'better.'

What is their website and can they boost that they have an online database searchable in many different ways??

http://www.phrfsocal.org and look under the ratings menu link. 2018 Fleet LIst of at the bottom of the menu has many different options.

If you look at the News and Events menu, at the bottom is the archives where you can download  spread sheets of old ratings before the board got into databases.

We really have tried to bring everything to light. Old minutes and ratings.

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Perhaps another way to look at all this: 

what is the difference in time that the adjustment would mean on your typical course.  

A 3 sec/ mile adjustment is one minute in 20 miles. 

At PHRF 100 let baseline be 650 sec/mile (5.53 kts)

your minimum 3 sec adjustment is 0.46%. (1 min in 3.6 hrs) 

at PHRF 50 or 600 sec/mile (6.0 kts) it’s up to 0.5%.

At PHRF 150 or 700 sec, (5.1 kts) it’s down to 0.43%

can you credibly show your boat’s speed to that accuracy, is the boat, not helm and trim? 

We race an old 40’ yawl (with a disp/lwl over 350) that rates higher than a J-24 

Below 3 kts in constrained water or shifting conditions we get consistently killed due to slow acceleration.

Let me fly my mizzen staysail on a beam reach in >5 and we roll boats that give us 60sec, gliding through holes. Sailing on open water in 15kts we are competitive. 

Once the sport boats start to plane, they go over the horizon 

Whats fair ? 

The day I can’t find 5% to improve in start, trim, tacking, tactics, roundings, I might decide my rating was a factor. 

Just unloaded 500# of spare line, second big anchor, spare 3spd winches (that were never installed over 15 yrs in lazarette) will we be faster? Maybe, that’s ~2.5% of weight,  equivalent of 18 secs. 

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16 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

 

?? Red

You said ......"I've heard of a rouge group charging".....so I wondered why they are red.

 

Red Lives Matter, I suppose

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On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 4:54 PM, Meat Wad said:

 

 

 

SD well, I hear that is another story. I've heard of a rouge group charging $$ and issuing local SD ratings. Not sure if it is true but I've heard some stories.

Seriously, you are on the SoCal Board and don't know about SD? SD has its own regional Board and three of them are also SoCal Area G Board.

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4 hours ago, Blackadder said:

Seriously, you are on the SoCal Board and don't know about SD? SD has its own regional Board and three of them are also SoCal Area G Board.

I sent you a PM.

You may have a regional sd board but the ratings issued by them are not valid outside SD. Only So Cal Regional and the Local area G board can issue valid ratings.
Area G cannot convene a meeting without sending an agenda to So Cal Regional in the prescribed time before the meeting date. The fleet secretary then emails every member in Area G of the meeting place and time. This keeps the local area from trying to hide and do wrong things. Reed the rules governing Local Area Meetings.

Your SD Regional can do what ever they want but it is outside So Cal PHRF.
Why don't you just go to a real rating system. I wish the whole country would. Someone has to start it.

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16 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

I sent you a PM.

You may have a regional sd board but the ratings issued by them are not valid outside SD. Only So Cal Regional and the Local area G board can issue valid ratings.
Area G cannot convene a meeting without sending an agenda to So Cal Regional in the prescribed time before the meeting date. The fleet secretary then emails every member in Area G of the meeting place and time. This keeps the local area from trying to hide and do wrong things. Reed the rules governing Local Area Meetings.

Your SD Regional can do what ever they want but it is outside So Cal PHRF.
Why don't you just go to a real rating system. I wish the whole country would. Someone has to start it.

I don't want to nitpick here, but isn't it true that pretty much *any* group can start a valid PHRF organization? All they need is an organization to say they want to use a new PHRF organization's ratings. To be fair, if OA's in southern california wrote that their races would accept PHRF-SD ratings, there's not much you can do about that.

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Well, The hearing was today.

There were multiple boats up for discussion (J70,Ranger22,Tanzer22, Ranger 28, Catalina 30, Catilina 315) when it was my turn I did the following:

Thanked the board for their time.

Read (surmised)  the owners letter to the board describing: crew experience, sail rotation, running rigging, winches and bottom prep.

Mentioned that there are 3 (Tall mast, deep keel and standard) versions of the boat in the USA and not all regions indicate them the same.

Let them know that the boat has had the same rating since 2007 on the lake.

Of the past 170 races I have crewed on the boat, 21 of them were only our class (non-spin), and the majority of them less than 45 min elapsed.

149 of those races, only 3/4 of them counted towards series standing due to throw outs.

Therefore,  there was no clear observed performance to justify a change in my opinion ( I know it was a stretch but) that is what I said.

~~~

I fully understand that:

A 3 sec/ mile adjustment is one minute in 20 miles.  

I will advise the board's decision but I think we got dinged.

Sail safe

 

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On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 7:24 PM, axolotl said:

Inaccurate.  I was on the local PHRF board for 10 years and probably have seen it all.  The *essence* of PHRF is it's performance based.  Here's a litany of claims that a boat is rated unfairly:

  • "My boat has 15 year old Dacron sails, carries a full cruising interior,  broke my mast and had it sleeved so it's now slower, had it weighed and it's 2,500 pounds heavier than the builder's published weight,  my only genoa is a 135%, not a 155%, yada yada."  PHRF assumes your boat is in racing condition, with all the latest go fast equipment and is well sailed.  Claiming your boat sucks is a nonstarter. 
  • "Here's three years of race results, and we're out of contention by 30 seconds a mile and deserve a  rating bump."  See above.   The board will briefly review the condition of your boat (sail ages, etc.) and since some Board members that actually race in your fleet have observed that you suck when it comes to starts, which way to go, sail trim, roundings, etc.  You (and probably your boat) sucks and is accurately being rated as the trash truck of the fleet.
  • "We switched to a fathead main with running backs, but the sail area is the same so no penalty.  Or changed keel,  rudder, shortened upper spreaders, switched to a carbon fiber mast, boom, etc., and only deserve -3sec/mile hit."  These are the big boys and aren't spending megabucks to go slower, rate the modification based on the potential speed gain.
  • Liars.  A competitor complains about oversize sails, interior woodwork ripped out, prop removed, engine removed and replaced with an outboard, etc.  If substantiated, it's not a rating adjustment, it's a one year ban or longer.  Declare speed enhancing mods (actually any mods) to your boat or suffer if you're caught, not 3 seconds a mile, instead a ban.

OTOH, here's some valid reasons to approach the Board for a rating change:

  • Several years of race results that show you are often only a few rating seconds out of the podium slots, evidence you've got all the go fast goodies (fresh laminated sails,  good deck gear, crew and naviguesser) and the boat is observationally well sailed.  The board might award a +3-6 second a mile adjustment to keep the fleet competitive.
  • If you own a production boat unique to your area, not modified, and present ratings from other PHRF areas nationwide that are slower, especially from venues with similar wind conditions, so your local rating is way out of whack, the Board may admit a mistake, and homologate your rating.
  • Beware the claim your boat deserves a rating bump when sister boats in the area perform worse than you do, unless they're  bonafide old sails, etc., bad equipment and badly sailed.
  • You own a one of a kind boat which was rated provisionally and after a year or two of results has been out of contention.  Provide evidence it's in tits condition, new sails, well sailed, etc., and the board may adjust you handicap radically to  keep the fleet competitive.

The hard part of PHRF is it's a performance based rule, so bad performance results risks skewing ratings into a golf handicap scenario.  Also, since it's the bottom of the barrel rating system, some bad players don't declare modifications and can get away with it  (for a while).  Hard to police.

The good thing about PHRF is it gets boats who are not hardcore racers (and some who are) out on the water, with somewhat accurate handicaps for a day of fun, only $35 a year for a certificate.  Consult Dennis Conner if you want to go hard core big money in PHRF; the first thing to do is buy a boat with a lot of sister ships in the fleet with a generally soft rating (which will protect your rating), then optimize the boat without breaking any rules and race it with your ageing AC buddies and collect trophies.

 

All good info...I am a VP of a local PHRF organization.  We do make mistakes, but work thru them.

+/- 3 spm hit me once when I raced a Mighty Pearson 30, my friendly sailmaker told me to stop crying and race faster...which I did...and when the hit went away (part of a baywide update to all boats), I was very fast...

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18 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I sent you a PM.

You may have a regional sd board but the ratings issued by them are not valid outside SD. Only So Cal Regional and the Local area G board can issue valid ratings.
Area G cannot convene a meeting without sending an agenda to So Cal Regional in the prescribed time before the meeting date. The fleet secretary then emails every member in Area G of the meeting place and time. This keeps the local area from trying to hide and do wrong things. Reed the rules governing Local Area Meetings.

Your SD Regional can do what ever they want but it is outside So Cal PHRF.
Why don't you just go to a real rating system. I wish the whole country would. Someone has to start it.

Area G ratings are for SoCal and that is a separate certificate, issued by SoCal. PHRFSD issues ratings for San Diego, sometimes boats are rated in SD differently from Area G. In that case the area G (San Diego area board) notifies SoCal of the Area G offset, however that boat still has to apply to SoCal. Thus boats in San Diego often carry both SoCal and SD certificates

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On 2/24/2018 at 6:18 PM, ryley said:

PHRF-NE isn't exactly dead, and they like to claim that every other PHRF area looks to them as a model. Ok, no comments from me on that. But for as long as I've been racing under PHRF-NE, which is since 2006, they have NEVER held an in-person rating review hearing. Everything is done via mail or email on a very simple form. Then you wait, and some time in the future the illuminati will give you the thumbs up or thumbs down. Their bylaws are full of holes and contradictions, and they don't seem to be in any hurry to fix it.

For the 2018 season, MBSA is promoting the use of ORR-ez. It's not perfect, but we're not looking for perfect, only 'better.'

All rating reviews should be in person unless the regional/Local board has provisions for phone in or Go To Meeting type attendance.

On 2/25/2018 at 4:25 PM, ryley said:

I don't want to nitpick here, but isn't it true that pretty much *any* group can start a valid PHRF organization?

If the "Any Group" group is not recognized nationally , then I do not believe it is legitimate except for the local people that recognize it. And then the ratings dispersed by the "Any Group" is only legitimate in that local area. I can only hope they are not charging you any $$$.

Someone help me if I am wrong here.

To areas that want their own ratings, Please make everyone pay to get measured under a ligament system and get an official rating so they have nothing to bitch about.

 

I will not respond to this thread. t0 gets too complicated.
I am am already trying to help with cleaning up the JAVA and DB  equations and such.
There is way too much to chat about.....all this on donated time.

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10 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

All rating reviews should be in person unless the regional/Local board has provisions for phone in or Go To Meeting type attendance.

If the "Any Group" group is not recognized nationally , then I do not believe it is legitimate except for the local people that recognize it. And then the ratings dispersed by the "Any Group" is only legitimate in that local area. I can only hope they are not charging you any $$$.

Someone help me if I am wrong here.

To areas that want their own ratings, Please make everyone pay to get measured under a ligament system and get an official rating so they have nothing to bitch about.

 

I will not respond to this thread. t0 gets too complicated.
I am am already trying to help with cleaning up the JAVA and DB  equations and such.
There is way too much to chat about.....all this on donated time.

Umm... this: http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/appeal

while it says in certain circumstances there will be a hearing as part of their biannual meetings, I've never heard of any ratings appeal not being "heard" entirely by email.

 

And... http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Offshore/PHRF/Starting a PHRF.pdf

So I stand by what I said - all it takes is a need and sponsorship and a handicap committee and yup you can start your own. Note that sponsorship in this case could just be a single club that wants ratings.

As far as "national" recognition, all you have to do is be a member of US Sailing and poof, national recognition. :) I'm not saying it's a good idea, I'm just saying that since there's no true national oversight, it really doesn't take much effort to start your own ratings office.

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15 minutes ago, ryley said:

Umm... this: http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/appeal

while it says in certain circumstances there will be a hearing as part of their biannual meetings, I've never heard of any ratings appeal not being "heard" entirely by email.

 

And... http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Offshore/PHRF/Starting a PHRF.pdf

So I stand by what I said - all it takes is a need and sponsorship and a handicap committee and yup you can start your own. Note that sponsorship in this case could just be a single club that wants ratings.

As far as "national" recognition, all you have to do is be a member of US Sailing and poof, national recognition. :) I'm not saying it's a good idea, I'm just saying that since there's no true national oversight, it really doesn't take much effort to start your own ratings office.

PHRF - NE is absolutely the worst.  As a guest boat using the rating only for the Marblehead to Halifax race, we have been consistently rated 12 sec/mile faster in NE than anywhere else on the eastern seaboard that we have sailed.  I prepared a well written appeal with A LOT of race data from various areas of the country including some of the major east coast regattas (Block Is., Key West, Charleston etc.).  It was summarily rejected by the committee over email in about 2 days.  I seriously doubt that they even considered it.  When pressed for a response about the decision making process, they clearly stated that they didn't think the rating was "too far off" based on sailing other (completely different) designs from the same manufacturer.

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5 minutes ago, vtsail said:

PHRF - NE is absolutely the worst.  As a guest boat using the rating only for the Marblehead to Halifax race, we have been consistently rated 12 sec/mile faster in NE than anywhere else on the eastern seaboard that we have sailed.  I prepared a well written appeal with A LOT of race data from various areas of the country including some of the major east coast regattas (Block Is., Key West, Charleston etc.).  It was summarily rejected by the committee over email in about 2 days.  I seriously doubt that they even considered it.  When pressed for a response about the decision making process, they clearly stated that they didn't think the rating was "too far off" based on sailing other (completely different) designs from the same manufacturer.

Buy a J-111. Then you'll be rated 9 - 12s *slower* than the rest of the country ;)

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Haven't figured it out yet, but, WHY DOES PHRF HATE GOOD SAILORS?  One thing I would do is look at the Portsmouth Rating and compare it to the PHRF rating.  I think Portsmouth considers different wind conditions, so that may help.  I do the Mug Race in Florida each year and they have gone to Portsmouth as the Base Rating and convert it to PHRF.  Everyone pissed and moaned the first year or two, but in the long run it has worked out pretty good. 

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When I had to defend a rating, I calculated the rating that my boat would have to have to split 50/50 on the races that we had sailed against each of a number of boats.  It was easy to show that the required change was highly improbable for a boat with my boat's characteristics (e.g., a boat with the characteristics of a j24 can't rate 120).  I then argued that this indicated that all but a few boats weren't being sailed all that well.  The remaining boats all looked pretty competitive with us.

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On 2/27/2018 at 6:41 PM, Meat Wad said:

I will not respond to this thread. t0 gets too complicated. YES
I am am already trying to help with cleaning up the JAVA and DB  equations and such. THANK YOU
There is way too much to chat about.....all this on donated time. EXACTLY

if everyone who complained or had an idea got involved and helped out there would be peace and happiness throughout the land

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On 3/3/2018 at 11:56 AM, Parma said:

if everyone who complained or had an idea got involved and helped out there would be peace and happiness throughout the land

if only it were so simple. 

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On 3/1/2018 at 4:45 AM, akeeley4834 said:

Haven't figured it out yet, but, WHY DOES PHRF HATE GOOD SAILORS?  

They don’t. I know it might seem that way but saying that PH rates good sailors more harshly than bad sailors is like saying that PH rates faster boats more harshly than slow boats.

Don’t take it personally, just like the owner of a fast boat should not take it personally when he gets a harsher rating than a slow boat. It's just PH trying to level the playing field and "protect" (encourage participation within) the fleet.

I do think there is some merit to the argument that PH should acknowledge that they do end up rating the skill the sailors aboard and not just the boat itself. E.G. if a boat ends up sailing lots faster (or much slower) than PH typically rates that particular model of boat due to the skill of the sailors aboard that specific vessel should that particular model boat or that specific vessel get the rating adjustment?

What is the purpose of PH? Really, think deeply & carefully about it for a while. 

Perhaps it’s time to rate individual boats and not models of boats with corresponding restrictions on who can sail her noted on their certificate.

It wouldn’t be all that hard, but as noted, it takes someone to get involved. Just like it would take someone to get involved to give individual boats double handed ratings as well.

All good ideas, they're just waiting for someone with the time and the ability.

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On 2/25/2018 at 7:57 PM, SailRacer said:

Well, The hearing was today....

I will advise the board's decision but I think we got dinged.

What was the result?

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Update:

We were hit 3 sec as proposed. all other boats ratings were changed as proposed.

We also went on to finish the 18 week season as low point boat over all classes (ps we made it to all of the starts).

next is to try to get owner to have the bottom done with possibly Baltoplate rather than VC 17. For fresh water, I think it will hold up better.  Also backing plates for halyard winches with G 10.

Anybody have info on a National rating standard?

Sail Safe!

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Who said PHRF rates boats, not people?  Yes that's the theory but in practice I know differently.

My first PHRF boat rated 168 when I bought it and 156 when I sold it.  Three years later it was back to 168.  Several boats later my C&C 34+ 'Savage' was protested for its rating and at the committee meeting (I also sat on the committee) it was brought to the persons protesting that I had won many major regattas on the previous three boats I had owned and that was probably something to do with why I'm winning with the boat in question.  The people protesting me were not regular podium material.  End result, no rating change.

So, if you have had previous boats that were winning, this could be a solid defense.

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15 minutes ago, 2savage said:

Who said PHRF rates boats, not people?  Yes that's the theory but in practice I know differently.

My first PHRF boat rated 168 when I bought it and 156 when I sold it.  Three years later it was back to 168.  Several boats later my C&C 34+ 'Savage' was protested for its rating and at the committee meeting (I also sat on the committee) it was brought to the persons protesting that I had won many major regattas on the previous three boats I had owned and that was probably something to do with why I'm winning with the boat in question.  The people protesting me were not regular podium material.  End result, no rating change.

So, if you have had previous boats that were winning, this could be a solid defense.

You must bring race documented failures of the other boats, not just the fact that you and your crew are good.

Video and photos of starts, other boats over standing the weather mark and even better their failures off the wind. Bigger gains are made off the wind by paying attention to the wind angles.

 

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