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Sydney To Hobart 2018

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15 hours ago, Curious said:

And David Adams, professional merchant marine officer and class winner in a singlehanded around the world race, also said in a radio interview that he didn't know what "storm force" meant, so Winston's nav was not the only one.

Probably one of the most damming things to come from the Coronial Enquiry, as representing a total ignorance in Australia of the Beaufort Scale. 

The Beaufort Scale was derived in the early 1800's and settled in the early 1900's save for subsequent adjustments to largely capture extreme events like cyclones/typhoons etc. BOM therefore by using in 1998 the category "Storm Warning" were using a term at least 100 years old. That category was delivered to the CYC one hour after the start (following a "Gale Warning" at the pre start weather briefing) and literally to the hour 24 hours later that Storm Warning transpired in reality within 5kn plus or minus. That said the term Gale Warning was not properly appreciated despite competitors having revieved weather packs describing it.

You then go on to say:

15 hours ago, Curious said:

Arguably, the meteorological community should have been ensuring that their use of a term that means something else in everyday English in almost all circumstances did not lead to confusion. The reason we fund the BOM is to give information, not to obscure it by the use of technical jargon.

Well that is clearly horseshit trying to lay the blame on BOM. But maybe cottoning on you say this in a post 2 hours later acknowledging Australian sailors (but not alone outside Europe) didn't have a clue about the Beaufort Scale you say as follows. Yet you still blame BOM to the extent you invent shit by saying: "The BoM appears to have admitted that they had a communications issue by the way they changed their windspeed information.."

In probably one of the most detailed Coronial Enquiries in Australian history, yet there is no finding in that regard that BOM changed their windspeed directives as you claim. All evidence and conclusions show to the contrary that BOM were ramping their windspeed forecasts up from Christmas Day and peaked an hour after the start. The problem wasn't BOM's, the problem was their message was taken by the RC and incorrectly communicated to the fleet.

13 hours ago, Curious said:

What Adams said may be surprising, but it's what he said.  Maybe I'm showing the fact that I did most of my offshore racing decades ago and wasn't a naviguesser, but in my experience the Beaufort scale was something that people from other places used; racing out of Sydney we usually just referred to windspeed by knots. The BoM appears to have admitted that they had a communications issue by the way they changed their windspeed information, and I stand by the comment that if you are a public service dedicated to giving vital information to the public then part of your job is to ensure that they understand it. 

BOM reacted to 1998 by essentialy making the Beaufort Scale more marine casual user friendly in advance of both the 1999 S2H and pre the outcome of the Coronial Enquiry in 2000. The Coroner acknowledged that where on the other hand the CYCA were still in the fetal position pre his findings over a year after the event as evidenced by continuing with the same RC in 1999. BOM to this day has not changed its reliance on the Beufort Scale for transmitting things like High Seas forecasts in line with international standards of communicating weather forecasts. 

The upside of the tragedy of 1998 is the experience has been absorbed and things implemented via education, offshore regs etc.

However my guess is you are a fuckin slow learner and still 20 years later haven't  bothered to understand the Beufort Scale and think BOM was to blame.

Here is a Xmas present for you and note the "Storm" category as forecast by BOM, transmitted an hour after the start and experienced real time 24 hours later. Compare that to the bizzare forecast somehow transmitted by the RC to competitors indicating it might be sporty and telling the media this is record breaking weather. WTF.

 

images (78).jpeg

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Zen TP52 owner Gordon Ketelbey telling us how to balance the books at the end of the month. Don't know much about their crew and their chances of doing well in this race? When you look at the Ichi Ban crew it's hard to rank the rest of the 52's in some sort of order if they have the sweet handicap spot? I'm looking forward to seeing Teasing Machine 3 and their hot shot French crew race against all the 52's. The blood is starting to warm now..............

 

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Teasing Machine having some fun.! Rumor has it they are bringing some French Liquor, Frog's legs and other assorted carb's to tackle this great race.! Purpose built IRC5 54 versus Australia's best TP52's, interesting times ahead...

 

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Interesting look at Comanche way back at their start, even Tony Mutter's comments re the manual winches etc. Pity Rambler isn't doing the Hobart but  love they way they talked up this race with an 88 footer vs a 100.! 12 feet counts

 

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9 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

TM is a very cool but pro..very fast French program. S2H needs more like them.

S2H needs more amateur teams not pro crews. Be interesting to see what they do next year for the 75th, in regard to inclusiveness. 

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12 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

S2H needs more amateur teams not pro crews. Be interesting to see what they do next year for the 75th, in regard to inclusiveness. 

Yep boats like Ichi are very amateur..yet they fit in well with those really really amateur like  Couta and Co on Voodoo. Scan the combustion engine has been invented, you don't have to take a steam engine to work anymore.

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Shame Hooligan aren't fans of the S2H..! Beating Voodoo out of the heads is pretty impressive. They have also finished in front of Ichi Ban most times so this was like some exhibition? An inshore Day Sailing TP52.? Marcus doesn't like the Ocean? 

https://www.sail-world.com/news/212907/CYCA-Trophy-Series-underway-with-RSHYR-in-sight

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16 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Yep boats like Ichi are very amateur..yet they fit in well with those really really amateur like  Couta and Co on Voodoo. Scan the combustion engine has been invented, you don't have to take a steam engine to work anymore.

It’s still 1986 or 1975 in our world. 

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Ichi Ban is going to do a horizon job on Teasing Machine in anything light or VMG running. Once TM puts that beam to work on a reach though you can expect her to do the same.

Horses for Courses, as always. 

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9 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Probably one of the most damming things to come from the Coronial Enquiry, as representing a total ignorance in Australia of the Beaufort Scale. 

The Beaufort Scale was derived in the early 1800's and settled in the early 1900's save for subsequent adjustments to largely capture extreme events like cyclones/typhoons etc. BOM therefore by using in 1998 the category "Storm Warning" were using a term at least 100 years old. That category was delivered to the CYC one hour after the start (following a "Gale Warning" at the pre start weather briefing) and literally to the hour 24 hours later that Storm Warning transpired in reality within 5kn plus or minus. That said the term Gale Warning was not properly appreciated despite competitors having revieved weather packs describing it.

You then go on to say:

Well that is clearly horseshit trying to lay the blame on BOM. But maybe cottoning on you say this in a post 2 hours later acknowledging Australian sailors (but not alone outside Europe) didn't have a clue about the Beaufort Scale you say as follows. Yet you still blame BOM to the extent you invent shit by saying: "The BoM appears to have admitted that they had a communications issue by the way they changed their windspeed information.."

In probably one of the most detailed Coronial Enquiries in Australian history, yet there is no finding in that regard that BOM changed their windspeed directives as you claim. All evidence and conclusions show to the contrary that BOM were ramping their windspeed forecasts up from Christmas Day and peaked an hour after the start. The problem wasn't BOM's, the problem was their message was taken by the RC and incorrectly communicated to the fleet.

BOM reacted to 1998 by essentialy making the Beaufort Scale more marine casual user friendly in advance of both the 1999 S2H and pre the outcome of the Coronial Enquiry in 2000. The Coroner acknowledged that where on the other hand the CYCA were still in the fetal position pre his findings over a year after the event as evidenced by continuing with the same RC in 1999. BOM to this day has not changed its reliance on the Beufort Scale for transmitting things like High Seas forecasts in line with international standards of communicating weather forecasts. 

The upside of the tragedy of 1998 is the experience has been absorbed and things implemented via education, offshore regs etc.

However my guess is you are a fuckin slow learner and still 20 years later haven't  bothered to understand the Beufort Scale and think BOM was to blame.

Here is a Xmas present for you and note the "Storm" category as forecast by BOM, transmitted an hour after the start and experienced real time 24 hours later. Compare that to the bizzare forecast somehow transmitted by the RC to competitors indicating it might be sporty and telling the media this is record breaking weather. WTF.

 

images (78).jpeg

Jeezers fucking Christ, will you fucking well read what is written instead of assuming that you're god's all-knowing gift to the sailing world! 

I said; "The BoM appears to have admitted that they had a communications issue by the way they changed their windspeed information.." as evidenced in the inquest and in the usual reports they give out now.  You said; "BOM reacted to 1998 by essentialy making the Beaufort Scale more marine casual user friendly in advance of both the 1999 S2H and pre the outcome of the Coronial Enquiry in 2000."

So you said essentially what I said - that the BoM changed the information it gives out - but you're claiming that when I say it it's wrong and when you say it it's right. I didn't say that the BoM changed its forecast for the 1998 race in any untoward way.  I don't need to be told what happened at the inquest because I was actually there a lot of the time and I am aware that Ken was trying to get hold of Thompson to let him know what was happening.   And if, as it appears, you think I'm defending the CYCA then you haven't read my posts or you're just trying to stir up shit to make yourself feel good

The coroner pointed out that many of the BoM's 'customers' in 1998 didn't understand the way the predicted windspeeds the BoM gave did not include the strength of the gusts. As I understand it the BoM followed international conventions, but many of the end users understandably didn't know those conventions. All I'm saying is that the BoM should have checked whether its message was getting through to the end users. Giving the general public "user friendly" language for vital messages instead of professional jargon is just normal good practise that the BoM was not following in 1998. 

As for the terminology of the Beaufort scale, whether people use the terms created by someone who used frigate topsails as a windspeed measurement is not a measure of their expertise, since they are just terms used (and not consistently; even the Great Lakes forecasters use different terms in some ways) to describe windspeed and as I said, around Sydney ocean racing it's more common to use knots. Why is it better to say "Force 10" when you could just say "48-55 knots"???

Since you have once again laid shit on people far and wide, do you mind telling us how many major ocean races or championships you have done and won? You spend a lot of time telling other people how little they know and how much you know, so you must be a legend of the sport and it would be nice to know who we are taking lessons from. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Shame Hooligan aren't fans of the S2H..! Beating Voodoo out of the heads is pretty impressive.

Actually Voodoo got caught up in a starting incident with Smuggler & Hartbreaker.....and did her 720 penalty..so ....

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41 minutes ago, Curious said:

Since you have once again laid shit on people far and wide, do you mind telling us how many major ocean races or championships you have done and won? You spend a lot of time telling other people how little they know and how much you know, so you must be a legend of the sport and it would be nice to know who we are taking lessons from. 

Didn't you know Jacks' the best sailor on the internet? Just ask him.

We now get to watch the dummy spit and abuse... Stand by.

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13 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Probably one of the most damming things to come from the Coronial Enquiry, as representing a total ignorance in Australia of the Beaufort Scale. 

The Beaufort Scale was derived in the early 1800's and settled in the early 1900's save for subsequent adjustments to largely capture extreme events like cyclones/typhoons etc. BOM therefore by using in 1998 the category "Storm Warning" were using a term at least 100 years old. That category was delivered to the CYC one hour after the start (following a "Gale Warning" at the pre start weather briefing) and literally to the hour 24 hours later that Storm Warning transpired in reality within 5kn plus or minus. That said the term Gale Warning was not properly appreciated despite competitors having revieved weather packs describing it.

You then go on to say:

Well that is clearly horseshit trying to lay the blame on BOM. But maybe cottoning on you say this in a post 2 hours later acknowledging Australian sailors (but not alone outside Europe) didn't have a clue about the Beaufort Scale you say as follows. Yet you still blame BOM to the extent you invent shit by saying: "The BoM appears to have admitted that they had a communications issue by the way they changed their windspeed information.."

In probably one of the most detailed Coronial Enquiries in Australian history, yet there is no finding in that regard that BOM changed their windspeed directives as you claim. All evidence and conclusions show to the contrary that BOM were ramping their windspeed forecasts up from Christmas Day and peaked an hour after the start. The problem wasn't BOM's, the problem was their message was taken by the RC and incorrectly communicated to the fleet.

BOM reacted to 1998 by essentialy making the Beaufort Scale more marine casual user friendly in advance of both the 1999 S2H and pre the outcome of the Coronial Enquiry in 2000. The Coroner acknowledged that where on the other hand the CYCA were still in the fetal position pre his findings over a year after the event as evidenced by continuing with the same RC in 1999. BOM to this day has not changed its reliance on the Beufort Scale for transmitting things like High Seas forecasts in line with international standards of communicating weather forecasts. 

The upside of the tragedy of 1998 is the experience has been absorbed and things implemented via education, offshore regs etc.

However my guess is you are a fuckin slow learner and still 20 years later haven't  bothered to understand the Beufort Scale and think BOM was to blame.

Here is a Xmas present for you and note the "Storm" category as forecast by BOM, transmitted an hour after the start and experienced real time 24 hours later. Compare that to the bizzare forecast somehow transmitted by the RC to competitors indicating it might be sporty and telling the media this is record breaking weather. WTF.

 

images (78).jpeg

It’s hard to blame anyone. I totally understand that everyone uses different terms from country to country, but I’ll openly admit that despite 30 some years of racing sail boats, I have no fucking clue what the Beaufort scale means. I’ve heard of of it, but no clue on the values. Other than dopey tradition, I can’t understand why you wouldn’t just say “winds up to XX knots expected.”

Likewise on the storm versus gale wind issue. If I hadn’t read about the 98 Hobart, I’d still be in the camp that had it backwards. 

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4 hours ago, charisma94 said:

Didn't you know Jacks' the best sailor on the internet? Just ask him.

I don’t know about Jack’s qualifications, but unless he is two people, I reckon a GRR sailer gets more sleep than Jack. 

You can also see that less accumulated sleep he has the grumpier he gets !

3R

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On 12/7/2018 at 1:46 PM, pulpit said:

 

Do they still have the 70 footer ?

even if they don’t they may still have a spare mast and parts from that boat. 

 

Pulpit

They can always take Maserati ........

 

Someone is poking the bear...... beer at the ready

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15 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Zen TP52 owner Gordon Ketelbey telling us how to balance the books at the end of the month. Don't know much about their crew and their chances of doing well in this race? When you look at the Ichi Ban crew it's hard to rank the rest of the 52's in some sort of order if they have the sweet handicap spot? I'm looking forward to seeing Teasing Machine 3 and their hot shot French crew race against all the 52's. The blood is starting to warm now..............

 

The boat is fresh out of the shed according to Facebook, getting a bit of structure added before heading out. Their nav is a pretty switched on fella, no idea about the rest of the crew. 

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1 hour ago, PIL66 said:

They can always take Maserati ........

 

Someone is poking the bear...... beer at the ready

Harsh!

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52 minutes ago, Rantifarian said:

The boat is fresh out of the shed according to Facebook, getting a bit of structure added before heading out. Their nav is a pretty switched on fella, no idea about the rest of the crew. 

Boat looks good. It’s the F40 crew plus a few extras. 

Couple of switched blokes on the boat..

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4 minutes ago, Next Level said:

Couple of switched blokes on the boat..

A sex changed crew? Beats the all female WOX crew. Where’s the press?

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3 hours ago, Monkey said:

I have no fucking clue what the Beaufort scale means. I’ve heard of of it, but no clue on the values. Other than dopey tradition,

I will admit to being somewhat worried about this. There is nothing dopey traditional about the Beaufort scale. It has international understanding, is in use in all professional seafaring. The nature of weather at sea has not changed over the centuries. No sailor with a professional certificate would be ignorant of the scale. The scale has the intrinsic benefit of providing a set of visual guides that means you don't need a windspeed meter to know what the conditions are. It isn't just for forecasting, it is for communicating conditions. Complaining about tradition, yet we stick with nautical miles and knots. Surely in this modern age of the Internet, computer based weather forecasting and GPS both of those are obsolete, and we should do it all in kilometers? Since you no longer stand at the back of the boat with a sextant running a line out between your fingers counting knots, all our navigation is alo dopey tradition, and we should not expect any sailor to know knots and nautical miles either. We don't, and for good reason.

My day job is in software for safety critical maritime systems. I doubt that anyone who doesn't have a perfect understanding of something as basic as the Beaufort scale gets to stand in the same room as any of our systems.

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1 hour ago, SCANAS said:

A sex changed crew? Beats the all female WOX crew. Where’s the press?

Hahaha 

should really double check these posts...

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2 hours ago, SCANAS said:

A sex changed crew? Beats the all female WOX crew. Where’s the press?

SWEET! Futanari crew! off the charts cool factor, okay really just fucking around here. Just letting everyone know the "super eccentric" is engaged in the thread.

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10 hours ago, Curious said:

Jeezers fucking Christ, will you fucking well read what is written instead of assuming that you're god's all-knowing gift to the sailing world! 

I said; "The BoM appears to have admitted that they had a communications issue by the way they changed their windspeed information.." 

Curious I do read and also read this following on from the above.

On 12/8/2018 at 8:28 AM, Curious said:

..and I stand by the comment that if you are a public service dedicated to giving vital information to the public then part of your job is to ensure that they understand it. 

As you say, the main problem was that the fleet didn't get the forecast early enough anyway.

My apologies as I read that as "one" and a criticism of BOM being the forecast changed and was communicated late by BOM.

BOM had three choices post 1998, noting it wasn't general public marine forecasts under the spotlight but ones they produced solely for the CYCA for a fee and together with explanatory material behind the forecast approach.

1. Not alter what they had been doing for a trillion years with no marine user complaints.

2. Not alter what they had been doing for a trillion years but seek to better educate marine users.

3. Alter their communication approach to be more "descriptive" and with added emphasis to the "over" factors of wind speed and sea state, but still generaly based on the internationaly recognised Beaufort Scale, plus better educate marine users.

They chose the latter and adopted it in 1999 and pre-Coronial Enquiry. This front foot approach took a lot a guts as it essentialy would undermine in advance some aspects of their role/evidence in the Enquiry and colour it's findings.

I therefore don't see BOM's role as the failing of a public sector information provider as you do. 

As for the personal jibes, I'm probably not a good one to cry foul and should shut up. However putting aside my own experience which I'm happy to defend my opinions with, it would appear you may subscribe to the antiquated idea that those that haven't participated are not acceptable sporting pundits or commentators, alongside those who have? I don't know so l will leave it at that.

I'm happy to hear the voice of those who haven't participated to mix with me, I listen intently to those who have, albeit at times we all may annoy the fuck out of each other at times. Opinions are like arseholes and I was born with a lot of them.

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TO: The most successful Anarchist of all time!  We mortal anarchists need a little tribute IMO..! Say no more. A tribute to the great man...

 

 

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12 hours ago, Couta said:

Actually Voodoo got caught up in a starting incident with Smuggler & Hartbreaker.....and did her 720 penalty..so ....

So.... they beat Voodoo today so pretty impressive 

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9 hours ago, Monkey said:

It’s hard to blame anyone. I totally understand that everyone uses different terms from country to country, but I’ll openly admit that despite 30 some years of racing sail boats, I have no fucking clue what the Beaufort scale means. I’ve heard of of it, but no clue on the values. Other than dopey tradition, I can’t understand why you wouldn’t just say “winds up to XX knots expected.”

Likewise on the storm versus gale wind issue. If I hadn’t read about the 98 Hobart, I’d still be in the camp that had it backwards. 

Monkey first all countries use the exactly the same scale being the Beaufort as adopted by this mob the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) founded in the late 1800's to unify weather forecasts and warnings around the world and still do so to this day. One objective was to distil into a couple words a wind speed range without utilising forecast windspeed measurements the masses didn't understand or had access to. The Beaufort therefore wasn't dopey tradition adopted by BOM, it has been and remains the world standard for around 150 years and by international treaties etc Aust subscribed to.

https://public.wmo.int/en/our-mandate/weather/weather-forecast

Secondly you are in fine company alongside those like David Adams not understanding that scale and a problem unearthed by the 98 S2H.

So my theory is this. The reality and I think genisus to the problem ticked away for a long time in Australia (and also say in temperate zones in the US with a large landmass extending across a wide latitude spread) until it was exposed by the S2H. 

For instance. Two housewives in say France or Sweden today, places where weather variability over a short time span is extreme have no difficulty with a Beaufort Scale orientated forecast. If they hear on the radio/TV the words "strong" or "gale" they know the washing won't take long to dry. On the hand hearing the word "storm" they are worried the washing line itself may disappear.

On the other hand the majority of Australia's population live on the eastern seaboard where other than at latitudes south of Melbourne and north of Brisbane are very temperate and see no real extreme wind events at the higher range on the Beaufort scale other than the occasional southerly or westetly buster depending on latitude and that often comes with a thunderstorm warning. Consumers in this temperate zone, particularly the terrestrial ones are more interested in the temperature forecast being within a few degrees and something they could rely upon.

Post 98 that now extends to more descriptive forecasts about offshore wind speeds and sea state, which is sort of counter to why the Beaufort was first invented and adopted to generate a wider understanding. That said the Beaufort still sits there underpinning it but with more detail now and readily communicated via the Internet etc and which didn't exist until the mid 1990's.

My experience was it wasn't until sailing outside Australia I first heard (outside books) day to day the words Force (Beaufort) No used and actually not word classification.

We are all therefore not alone.

1934235592_images(78).jpeg.5bca5abdca326f474b7b69a5bde1e7e4.jpeg

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9 hours ago, Monkey said:

 I’ll openly admit that despite 30 some years of racing sail boats, I have no fucking clue what the Beaufort scale means. I’ve heard of of it, but no clue on the values. Other than dopey tradition, I can’t understand why you wouldn’t just say “winds up to XX knots expected.”

multiply by 5, subtract 5. good enough until you get into the highest categories.

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1 hour ago, doc johnson said:

So.... they beat Voodoo today so pretty impressive 

A whole 10 boats in the regatta as well, bet the CYC are thrilled with that turnout.

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6 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

I will admit to being somewhat worried about this. There is nothing dopey traditional about the Beaufort scale. It has international understanding, is in use in all professional seafaring. The nature of weather at sea has not changed over the centuries. No sailor with a professional certificate would be ignorant of the scale. The scale has the intrinsic benefit of providing a set of visual guides that means you don't need a windspeed meter to know what the conditions are. It isn't just for forecasting, it is for communicating conditions. Complaining about tradition, yet we stick with nautical miles and knots. Surely in this modern age of the Internet, computer based weather forecasting and GPS both of those are obsolete, and we should do it all in kilometers? Since you no longer stand at the back of the boat with a sextant running a line out between your fingers counting knots, all our navigation is alo dopey tradition, and we should not expect any sailor to know knots and nautical miles either. We don't, and for good reason.

My day job is in software for safety critical maritime systems. I doubt that anyone who doesn't have a perfect understanding of something as basic as the Beaufort scale gets to stand in the same room as any of our systems.

Worry all you want. It’s reality. For example, this is a direct cut and paste from my local NOAA forecast. Show me where the government folks use Force 1, 2, etc.

Today

W wind 10 to 15 kt. Cloudy through mid morning, then gradual clearing. Waves 1 ft or less.

Tonight

WNW wind around 10 kt. Mostly clear. Waves 1 ft or less.

Monday

WSW wind 10 to 15 kt. Sunny. Waves 1 ft or less.

Monday Night

W wind 10 to 15 kt. Partly cloudy. Waves 1 ft or less.

Tuesday

W wind 5 to 10 kt becoming NNE in the afternoon. Mostly sunny. Waves 1 ft or less.

Tuesday Night

ENE wind 5 to 10 kt becoming S after midnight. Partly cloudy. Waves 1 ft or less.

Wednesday

SSE wind 10 to 15 kt. A slight chance of snow before noon, then a chance of rain and snow between noon and 2pm, then a chance of rain after 2pm. Waves 1 to 3 ft.

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I agree that the prime use of the Beaufort scale has probably reached its natural end, it was originally devised and used before accurate wind strength monitoring was available. It used visuals to describe the weather conditions, hence the visual descriptions used. 

blog_wcNEW-BeaufortScale.jpg.7c7bcb0ddc9dad9e82c16b683987a50e.jpg

 

 

However, here is a snip from today’s met office shipping forecast. 

 

EF2777E6-EC55-4A63-AB6C-F594298E2235.png

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

For instance. Two housewives in say France or Sweden today, places where weather variability over a short time span is extreme have no difficulty with a Beaufort Scale orientated forecast. If they hear on the radio/TV the words "strong" or "gale" they know the washing won't take long to dry. On the hand hearing the word "storm" they are worried the washing line itself may disappear.

On the other hand the majority of Australia's population live on the eastern seaboard where other than at latitudes south of Melbourne and north of Brisbane are very temperate and see no real extreme wind events at the higher range on the Beaufort scale other than the occasional southerly or westetly buster depending on latitude and that often comes with a thunderstorm warning. Consumers in this temperate zone, particularly the terrestrial ones are more interested in the temperature forecast being within a few degrees and something they could rely upon.

 

WTF are you talking about.... In Sweden the wind forecasts are in m/s and as far as extreme wind events, whether it be high windspeeds or extreme changes in weather, Sweden has nothing on Melbourne. Norway might be a different matter.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Monkey first all countries use the exactly the same scale being the Beaufort as adopted by this mob the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) founded in the late 1800's to unify weather forecasts and warnings around the world and still do so to this day. One objective was to distil into a couple words a wind speed range without utilising forecast windspeed measurements the masses didn't understand or had access to. The Beaufort therefore wasn't dopey tradition adopted by BOM, it has been and remains the world standard for around 150 years and by international treaties etc Aust subscribed to.

https://public.wmo.int/en/our-mandate/weather/weather-forecast

Secondly you are in fine company alongside those like David Adams not understanding that scale and a problem unearthed by the 98 S2H.

So my theory is this. The reality and I think genisus to the problem ticked away for a long time in Australia (and also say in temperate zones in the US with a large landmass extending across a wide latitude spread) until it was exposed by the S2H. 

For instance. Two housewives in say France or Sweden today, places where weather variability over a short time span is extreme have no difficulty with a Beaufort Scale orientated forecast. If they hear on the radio/TV the words "strong" or "gale" they know the washing won't take long to dry. On the hand hearing the word "storm" they are worried the washing line itself may disappear.

On the other hand the majority of Australia's population live on the eastern seaboard where other than at latitudes south of Melbourne and north of Brisbane are very temperate and see no real extreme wind events at the higher range on the Beaufort scale other than the occasional southerly or westetly buster depending on latitude and that often comes with a thunderstorm warning. Consumers in this temperate zone, particularly the terrestrial ones are more interested in the temperature forecast being within a few degrees and something they could rely upon.

Post 98 that now extends to more descriptive forecasts about offshore wind speeds and sea state, which is sort of counter to why the Beaufort was first invented and adopted to generate a wider understanding. That said the Beaufort still sits there underpinning it but with more detail now and readily communicated via the Internet etc and which didn't exist until the mid 1990's.

My experience was it wasn't until sailing outside Australia I first heard (outside books) day to day the words Force (Beaufort) No used and actually not word classification.

We are all therefore not alone.

1934235592_images(78).jpeg.5bca5abdca326f474b7b69a5bde1e7e4.jpeg

I think we’re on the same page in that it’s “used” world wide, it’s just not actually used in many areas. 

It makes you wonder why they didn’t just tell the fleet “winds over 50 knots and 30-40 foot waves.”  Apparently that’s more confusing than saying storm. 

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54 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I think we’re on the same page in that it’s “used” world wide, it’s just not actually used in many areas. 

It makes you wonder why they didn’t just tell the fleet “winds over 50 knots and 30-40 foot waves.”  Apparently that’s more confusing than saying storm. 

Monkey everyone seems to forget the method of transmission  being radio and exactly the same means to convey forecasts by the RC in 1998 and the length of the race course generating different forecasts at the same time.

For reference here is a transcript incl of typos for a radio forecast for the Fastnet Race and typical in Europe up until the mid 90's pre internet and around the time of the 98 S2H. This forecast was the first transmitted indicating windspeeds greater than Gale Force mid race. It  therefore corresponds roughly to the BOM forecast issued on Boxing Day after the start.

You will see no mention of windspeeds only the Beaufort Force Numbers and Classification being Gale or the greater Storm. 

BTW the main issue with the Fasnet weather forecast was not actual speeds being wrong but only hours warning given rising to a Gale and literally no warning going to Storm.

Gale warning Issued at 2246 broadcast at 2300:

-FASTNET

Southwesterly severe gales force 9, increasing storm force 10, Imminent.

Shipping forcast, Issued at 2330. broadcast at 0015 on 14 August:- There are warnings of gales In Forties, Cromarty, Forth, Tyne,
Dogger, Fisher, German Bight, Humber, Thames, Dover,Wight, Portiand,"Plymouth, Biscay, Finlsterre, Sole, Lundv, Peetnet, Irish
Sea/Shannon, Rockall, Malin. The general synopsis at ,1900 Monday. Low southwest Shannon, 990, expected northwest Scotland, 980, by 1900Tuesday wlth assoolated cold front moving east, expected Viking, German Bight, South Blscav by same time.

The area forecasts for the next 24hours:
LUNDY. FASTNET, IRISHSEA South to southwest veering westerly 7 to severe gale 9, locally storm 10 in Fastnet. Rain then showers. Moderate to good.

Reports from Coastal Statlons at 2300.
SCILLY
Southwest 6/ continuous moderate rain, 3 miles, l002, fallng quickly
VALENTIA
South byeast 6, intermittent slight rain/ 6 miles, 986, falling very rapldly,
MALlNHEAD
Southeast4dogballs miles.998.falling quickly.

The use of radio and employing the Beaufort Scale for transmission clarity is probably not widely appreciated by those used to something different today and with different descriptor expectations.

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How's Ricko's hair looking these days and at what point on the Beaufort Scale does it go to shit?  

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14 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

How's Ricko's hair looking these days and at what point on the Beaufort Scale does it go to shit?  

That’s not going anywhere. 

Z.jpeg.5a758ceb702603dbc3c318d0581ee3b5.jpeg

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7 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

MALlNHEAD
Southeast4dogballs miles.998.falling quickly.

Jack, in the above quote, can you tell me wether dogsballs translates to Aussie, as "fucken heaps mate, she'll be right" or fuck all, we are fucked". 

This confusion is what leads to misinterpretation. 

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10 hours ago, doc johnson said:

So.... they beat Voodoo today so pretty impressive 

Hey Doc...check the thread...its about the S2H. Hooligan is an inshore optimised boat - incapable of doing the Hobart. So a super light around the cans TP52 beat an offshore optimised 63 in an around the cans race in a flukey breeze of 8-12kts...what's that got to do with the Hobart? The boys were clearly leading into the harbour and got stuck in hole that Hooligan saw & avoided - that's harbour yacht racing. And the boys were 4 crew short.....it was a training session. The size of the fleet and the entry list gives you an idea of how serious a racing session it was. Impressive...?

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44 minutes ago, Couta said:

Hey Doc...check the thread...its about the S2H. Hooligan is an inshore optimised boat - incapable of doing the Hobart. So a super light around the cans TP52 beat an offshore optimised 63 in an around the cans race in a flukey breeze of 8-12kts...what's that got to do with the Hobart? The boys were clearly leading into the harbour and got stuck in hole that Hooligan saw & avoided - that's harbour yacht racing. And the boys were 4 crew short.....it was a training session. The size of the fleet and the entry list gives you an idea of how serious a racing session it was. Impressive...?

Well anytime a boat 11 feet shorter then you beats you over the line I’d call their performance reasonably impressive .

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1 hour ago, HILLY said:

Jack, in the above quote, can you tell me wether dogsballs translates to Aussie, as "fucken heaps mate, she'll be right" or fuck all, we are fucked". 

This confusion is what leads to misinterpretation. 

Hook Line and sinker.

MALlNHEAD
Southeast 4. 22 miles. 998. falling quickly.

No confusion about that and a lot of information packed into a short radio transmission.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hook Line and sinker.

MALlNHEAD
Southeast 4. 22 miles. 998. falling quickly.

No confusion about that and a lot of information packed into a short radio transmission.

Its the first time I've heard of 22 referred to as dogsballs, I've never spent any time looking at dogs balls, but whatever floats your boat...

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1 hour ago, doc johnson said:

Well anytime a boat 11 feet shorter then you beats you over the line I’d call their performance reasonably impressive .

Shhhh, its fun watching him polish the turd.

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Swanno, I see you and the doc share a common interest in camping.....best you fellas just stick to that...and leave comments on sailing to those that actually do it.

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3 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

I'd hate this style of forecast. But it's what you used to isn't it. 

Yes. 

It's funny being an expat Brit and listening to it again for the first time in at least a decade, it's somehow comforting, albeit completely irrelevant to my locale!

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19 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

I'd hate this style of forecast. But it's what you used to isn't it. 

Terra here is today's official marine forecast in your neck of the woods. Your radio broadcasts are identical are they not, both in English & Mandarin? 

HONG KONG = N TO NE 5-6, OCNL 7. RAIN PATCHES. SEA UP TO 4 M. SWELL N TO NE 2 M. TEMP 13-18 C. 

https://my.weather.gov.hk/wxinfo/currwx/fmar.htm

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39 minutes ago, Couta said:

Swanno, I see you and the doc share a common interest in camping.....best you fellas just stick to that...and leave comments on sailing to those that actually do it.

Yeah that’s a fair call I don’t think anyone could possibly camp and sail that’s just ridiculous . I actually think jimmy spithill didn’t even go to school camp cause it wasn’t worth the risk to his sailing career.

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14 hours ago, hoppy said:

WTF are you talking about.... In Sweden the wind forecasts are in m/s

Maybe try reading the context first and being an analogy? Putting side that and I was speaking historicaly and referencing use of Beaufort classification only, not use of numerical, you might be surprised Swedish marine forecasts like most in Europe all use the Beaufort "classification" scale.

Then individual countries add their own numerical rating. For example France's official marine forecasts use both Beaufort numbering and knots, UK is Beaufort numbering only, and Sweden, Netherlands etc (with relatively small coastlines) Beaufort classification only with m/s. I have no idea when say Sweden went from knots to m/s but at least a quick X.2 or X/2 conversion to kts.

Maybe with Brexit the UK with also add in mph?

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Talking about forcasting, based on us hitting a Sunfish on the way home in the Bird Island race, it looks like sunfish season again.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Maybe with Brexit the UK with also add in mph?

Or imperial miles per hour

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Maybe try reading the context first and being an analogy? Putting side that and I was speaking historicaly and referencing use of Beaufort classification only, not use of numerical, you might be surprised Swedish marine forecasts like most in Europe all use the Beaufort "classification" scale.

The official marine forecasts for shipping is of course uses the Beaufort scale, but your analogy of using Swedish house wives is just total BS. All Swedish marine forecasts in the media and even on the official weather bureau sites are in m/s.

So even if the Swedish housewife does boating, another factual error as you do not tend to have "housewives" as both partners work, then she/he will be more totally clueless than the average Aussie yachty about the beaufort scale. 

see a wind warning on the official site  https://www.smhi.se/vadret/vadret-i-sverige/varningar#ws=wpt-a,proxy=wpt-a,district=056,page=wpt-warning-alla

 

how can you speak historically about today?

16 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

For instance. Two housewives in say France or Sweden today, places where weather variability over a short time span is extreme have no difficulty with a Beaufort Scale orientated forecast. If they hear on the radio/TV the words "strong" or "gale" they know the washing won't take long to dry. On the hand hearing the word "storm" they are worried the washing line itself may disappear.

On the other hand the majority of Australia's population live on the eastern seaboard where other than at latitudes south of Melbourne and north of Brisbane are very temperate and see no real extreme wind events at the higher range on the Beaufort scale other than the occasional southerly or westetly buster depending on latitude and that often comes with a thunderstorm warning. Consumers in this temperate zone, particularly the terrestrial ones are more interested in the temperature forecast being within a few degrees and something they could rely upon.

 

You try to present yourself as the oracle of sailing facts when you are nothing more than the Bill O'Reilly of SA

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6 hours ago, doc johnson said:

Well anytime a boat 11 feet shorter then you beats you over the line I’d call their performance reasonably impressive .

Really........?    NFI

4 hours ago, Swanno said:

Shhhh, its fun watching him polish the turd.

Voodoo a turd...?     

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

For example France's official marine forecasts use both Beaufort numbering and knots, UK is Beaufort numbering only, and Sweden, Netherlands etc (with relatively small coastlines) Beaufort classification only with m/s. I have no idea when say Sweden went from knots to m/s but at least a quick X.2 or X/2 conversion to kts.

Bill O'Reilly, Sweden has 3,218km of coastline, 209km short of France. not what I would call relatively small.

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9 minutes ago, PIL66 said:

Really........?    NFI

Voodoo a turd...?     

Yeah and looks like the handicap would agree 

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20 minutes ago, doc johnson said:

Yeah and looks like the handicap would agree 

Did you ever follow it's progress after it was built.....? My guess is you either have zero idea or you are here to wind people up....?

What do you sail on Doc old boy..?

Interesting stats btw... joined in 2012 with 12 posts.....

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9 minutes ago, PIL66 said:

Did you ever follow it's progress after it was built.....? My guess is you either have zero idea or you are here to wind people up....?

What do you sail on Doc old boy..?

Interesting stats btw... joined in 2012 with 12 posts.....

Too busy camping to post or sail probably

 

roseland.jpg

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Bill O'Reilly, Sweden has 3,218km of coastline, 209km short of France. not what I would call relatively small.

I was simply highlighting a differential. You will also find it significantly smaller than France and with the majority fronting the landlocked  Baltic. That differential being was those with larger coastlines and fronting the Nth Atlantic being Spain/France/Portugal/UK don't use m/s like Sweden. My guess being sharing the same paddock necisitates using some common Beaufort measures and no one really cares what Sweden does. I suggest you concentrate on sailboat classifieds instead of playing a nitpicking game. You aren't very good at it.

That aside I looked up the phonebook and found 3 pages devoted to Bill O'Rielly so you will have to be more specific.

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2 hours ago, hoppy said:

how can you speak historically about today?

You try to present yourself as the oracle of sailing facts when you are nothing more than the Bill O'Reilly of SA.

Quite easilly by replacing these preceeding words you keep snipping out from your quotes to remove the historical context.

19 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

..first all countries use the exactly the same scale being the Beaufort as adopted by this mob the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) founded in the late 1800's to unify weather forecasts and warnings around the world and still do so to this day. One objective was to distil into a couple words a wind speed range without utilising forecast windspeed measurements the masses didn't understand or had access to...

https://public.wmo.int/en/our-mandate/weather/weather-forecast

Hoppy you mightn't like what has evolved over 150  years or understand it, noting you are not alone. However most people can differentiate between fact and opinion, something you either struggle with or put aside when going the flame.

I hope this answers your question.

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13 hours ago, Al Paca said:

How's Ricko's hair looking these days and at what point on the Beaufort Scale does it go to shit?  

its carbon fibre, it can't go to shit

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9 hours ago, doc johnson said:

Well anytime a boat 11 feet shorter then you beats you over the line I’d call their performance reasonably impressive .

 

8 hours ago, Swanno said:

Shhhh, its fun watching him polish the turd.

Swanno, Mate

 

It’s very hard to compare the 2 boats. 1 is a Boat designed and set up for day racing inshore only and has a crew that’s coached by Victor, the Olympic medal maker and it’s a top team wanting for nothing. The 2 - is a Boat designed to be raced offshore and is a amateur crew who are still getting to know the boat. 

 

My my question is, Why didn’t the “Hooligan” crew beat the Voodoo crew over the line more often ?

 

It just goes to show that the “Voodoo” crew are Sailing the Boat very well don’t you think and given the right conditions in the Hobart they stand a very good chance of being in the top 5 overall for handicap if they sail well and keep the boat in one peace.

 

pulpit

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6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I was simply highlighting a differential. You will also find it significantly smaller than France and with the majority fronting the landlocked  Baltic. That differential being was those with larger coastlines and fronting the Nth Atlantic being Spain/France/Portugal/UK don't use m/s like Sweden. My guess being sharing the same paddock necisitates using some common Beaufort measures and no one really cares what Sweden does. I suggest you concentrate on sailboat classifieds instead of playing a nitpicking game. You aren't very good at it.

That aside I looked up the phonebook and found 3 pages devoted to Bill O'Rielly so you will have to be more specific.

Fox news

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hey Pulpit..Pil66...Hoppy...fellas don't bother feeding the trolls. Our team might be "amateurs, mates, family, "has beens" and a "pro" but with over 150 competitively raced "Hobarts" between us, we're happy to cop criticism from anonymous sniping muppets...those that know who we are and what we've done to get the boat to the line only know part of the story. Those that know the owner and his personal story might have a clue as to what is driving the program. This is much more than just a race for us. The support we've had has been appreciated and the race will be what it will be...whatever the result - it's been a privilege to be part of it.

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On 12/9/2018 at 1:12 PM, hoppy said:

WTF are you talking about.... In Sweden the wind forecasts are in m/s and as far as extreme wind events, whether it be high windspeeds or extreme changes in weather, Sweden has nothing on Melbourne. Norway might be a different matter.

I doubt you'll find any housewifes in either country! :P  We do, however, obsess about the weather forecasts, and they are in m/s. 

 

In Melbourne, I guess the weather is either turned on or turned off, while there are more variations up here. A lot of expressions for different kinds of snow and the variations between rain and snow, and for when the rain or snow pauses. 

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7 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

I doubt you'll find any housewifes in either country! :P  We do, however, obsess about the weather forecasts, and they are in m/s. 

 

In Melbourne, I guess the weather is either turned on or turned off, while there are more variations up here. A lot of expressions for different kinds of snow and the variations between rain and snow, and for when the rain or snow pauses. 

Jacks still in the world of women being bare-foot and pregnant :P

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9 hours ago, Couta said:

hey Pulpit..Pil66...Hoppy...fellas don't bother feeding the trolls. Our team might be "amateurs, mates, family, "has beens" and a "pro" but with over 150 competitively raced "Hobarts" between us, we're happy to cop criticism from anonymous sniping muppets...those that know who we are and what we've done to get the boat to the line only know part of the story. Those that know the owner and his personal story might have a clue as to what is driving the program. This is much more than just a race for us. The support we've had has been appreciated and the race will be what it will be...whatever the result - it's been a privilege to be part of it.

I think you need to swallow some cement and harden up a bit . Nobody has commented on the owner, program, or boat . You just can’t handle it when someone commends someone’s performance in correlation to voodoo. 

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4 minutes ago, doc johnson said:

I think you need to swallow some cement and harden up a bit . Nobody has commented on the owner, program, or boat . You just can’t handle it when someone commends someone’s performance in correlation to voodoo. 

Who’s sock drawer did you appear from?

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When you cunts have finished sniping at each other, I see that there are seven boats racing today on the harbour in the Big Boat Challenge. Discuss.

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Just now, DtM said:

See thread on that topic.

Thanks, just saw that. The rest of you, resume sniping while we switch channels.

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26 minutes ago, SPORTSCAR said:

When you cunts have finished sniping at each other, I see that there are seven boats racing today on the harbour in the Big Boat Challenge. Discuss.

Hey, I resemble that remark, according to Jack at least....

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3 hours ago, doc johnson said:

I think you need to swallow some cement and harden up a bit . Nobody has commented on the owner, program, or boat . You just can’t handle it when someone commends someone’s performance in correlation to voodoo. 

You may as well correlate Voodoo's performance to a superfoiler or moth... both sailboats, yes and both shorter ..... you're idiot

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16 minutes ago, PIL66 said:

You may as well correlate Voodoo's performance to a superfoiler or moth... both sailboats, yes and both shorter ..... you're idiot

“Your idiot “ yeah good job makes sense. Maybe go back and read what boat were actually being compared “You idiot” (that’s how you say it). Maybe that’s why u ride the dock not the big boats anymore .

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4 minutes ago, doc johnson said:

“Your idiot “ yeah good job makes sense. Maybe go back and read what boat were actually being compared “You idiot” (that’s how you say it). Maybe that’s why u ride the dock not the big boats anymore .

What boat do you ride you arrogant little prick?

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10 minutes ago, doc johnson said:

“Your idiot “ yeah good job makes sense. Maybe go back and read what boat were actually being compared “You idiot” (that’s how you say it). Maybe that’s why u ride the dock not the big boats anymore .

Firstly, apologies on calling you an idiot...I guessed you were from your correlations .... Happy to be corrected ...

You compared a lightweight harbour / regatta racer, with no interior and straight from the TP circuit, to an ocean racer.... They're not in the same ballpark... fact.

And as far as me riding the dock... Firstly, I race my own 38 Grainger Cat and  a Volvo 70. .... I'm also not embarrassed to say here for all to read that at my age I can no longer make the grade as a professional sailor on a supermaxi as you eluded. There are very few spots in the back of these boats now days but some of my replacements lately have been the likes of  Jimmy Spithill, Daryl Wislang, John Hilderbrand, Dirk De Ridder, Kyle Langford and Brad Jackson to name a few.... Have you heard of them...?  I'm ok with being replaced by such talent.

  I've been lucky enough to be a part many big boat programs since the 80's and I'm still affiliated with the Comanche's owner and program. I'm just not part of their run on squad...I can live with that.

So that's a little about me and my "dock riding' as you call it.... and now what about you...?.. other than camping.....

BTW  whilst you are correcting me.... you wrote  "Maybe go back and read what boat were actually being compared"    Looks like i'm not the only person to mistakenly leave out a letter or word ....hypocritical much hahaha

4 minutes ago, kawalski said:

What boat do you ride you arrogant little prick?

I'd also like to know... He won't reveal himself....

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I'm sneezing from the dust unleashed from someone's sock drawer.

Anyway the UTC clock has just ticked over for one day short of start with 14 day models, though as usual won't mean a tinkers until next week.

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1 minute ago, bayboy said:

Whats going on with Brindabella has she been retired to Whitsundays yet...

She’s sitting over at Birkenhead point marina 

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Meanwhile summizing the BB Challenge on Sydney Harbour not a lot learnt. I'm thinking BJ has sacrificed some light air speed with their changes and Wild Oats looked faster in 8 Knots today. Scallywag showed some glimpses but think she will be better come Hobart but it worries me about their lack of time on the boat. If they were dead serious surely they would have been training rather than doing the Kings Cup OS? Owner's wishes perhaps?. Naval Group were terrible and Langman says they have not sailed together for very long. Not much else to report a non eventful BB Challenge today, good one for Comanche to sit out.

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9 minutes ago, bayboy said:

Whats going on with Brindabella has she been retired to Whitsundays yet...

Just had a birthday and sitting at Birkenhead (Lack of options) Owner loves her and is planing some day sails with his family and friends this summer

 

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4 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Meanwhile summizing the BB Challenge on Sydney Harbour not a lot learnt. I'm thinking BJ has sacrificed some light air speed with their changes and Wild Oats looked faster in 8 Knots today. Scallywag showed some glimpses but think she will be better come Hobart but it worries me about their lack of time on the boat. If they were dead serious surely they would have been training rather than doing the Kings Cup OS? Owner's wishes perhaps?. Naval Group were terrible and Langman says they have not sailed together for very long. Not much else to report a non eventful BB Challenge today, good one for Comanche to sit out.

Spot on

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I agree that looks to be a battle of wo x1 and Comanche, and Scallywag need a fair bit of work to be competitive, still think they might have a small say in S2H, not sure why Langman would buy a boat like Moneypenny and then race with virtual novices compared to the rest of the fleet at the pointy end.

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5 minutes ago, PIL66 said:

Just had a birthday and sitting at Birkenhead (Lack of options) Owner loves her and is planing some day sails with his family and friends this summer

 

Nice to have those options available, good luck to him....

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6 minutes ago, bayboy said:

not sure why Langman would buy a boat like Moneypenny and then race with virtual novices compared to the rest of the fleet at the pointy end.

ermmm. its a charter?

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