bigrpowr

Sydney To Hobart 2018

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33 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Don't compare the two!  Last year was a total fuck up or freeze up in a very normal P/S situation.  The AIS thing, if true was a calculated move and quite the opposite.  I cannot believe anyone would be that stupid with the eyes of the world upon them, but you know your guys better than I do.  

Have to disagree Cal20sailor. Not doing a 720 with the experience they had on board was not a freeze up, it was a considered decision - as it turns out a stupid decision for what the videos all showed was a clear Rule 13 breach. Anyway, old news.

The AIS thing however, I do agree was calculated. Why would Richards make the statement "It was not mandatory" if they hadn't deliberately switched it off. If it was on surely he would have stated "It was on, must have been a fault with the transmission" or similar statement. He has virtually hung himself with his "mandatory" statement.

But to confirm your statement, they do seem to do stupid things at times.

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49 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Richards: “It’s not a mandatory thing …

Yep, so he didn't say "but but it was on!"

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Just now, Ease the sheet. said:

I have no problem with doing them all. It's messy, but playing by the rules  and then declaring that you have played by the rules ought to mean something. ....

Exactly.  Richards upon realizing his mistake should report it to the RC or just RAF.  What are the odds?  We race by a Corinthian value of fair sailing and if that whore doesn't want to play by the rules, fuck him.  

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

WOX gives Alive time

Yes but if they beat them over the line I’d be impressed given the massive difference in time each crew has spent with their boat

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1 minute ago, random said:

Yep, so he didn't say "but but it was on!"

actually , he's basically indicated the reverse

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4 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Have to disagree Cal20sailor. Not doing a 720 with the experience they had on board was not a freeze up, it was a considered decision - as it turns out a stupid decision for what the videos all showed was a clear Rule 13 breach. Anyway, old news.

The AIS thing however, I do agree was calculated. Why would Richards make the statement "It was not mandatory" if they hadn't deliberately switched it off. If it was on surely he would have stated "It was on, must have been a fault with the transmission" or similar statement. He has virtually hung himself with his "mandatory" statement.

But to confirm your statement, they do seem to do stupid things at times.

Agreed, my comment was about the dumb shit move that got them into trouble last year.  The sort of move a lawyer helming his first boat would have made.  (hope you're not a lawyer).  So stupid to foul, and you are very correct, dumber to not do turns.  

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19 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

If the RC or Black Jack want to take a run at Oats over this they'll have to do the same with Infotrack,  their last ping on AIS was not far outside Sydney heads

Class B AIS may be operational, boat to boat via VHF, but not ping the VHF stations that relay the positions to the tracker interweb sites. (Not stong enough signal? Mast too short?)

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1 minute ago, Mid said:

actually , he's basically indicated the reverse

I expected him to deny it, like he denied a foul last year.  But after admitting it ... what I was getting at.

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Just now, Bill E Goat said:

Wild Oats XI navigator Juan Vila told The Daily Telegraph he believed the AIS was turned on for the entire race

FFS, this is now approaching ridiculous.  Richards knew it was off but the guy who stared at it for 40+ hrs didn't?  You guys have the worst liars.  

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Richards: "Something Went wrong with our AIS" 

Everyone else: " get it sorted out for next year"

vs

Richards:  "AIS isn't mandatory"

Everyone else: "WTF!"

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1 minute ago, Bill E Goat said:

Wild Oats XI navigator Juan Vila told The Daily Telegraph he believed the AIS was turned on for the entire race

And that's the response I would have expected from their illustrious skipper, but alas, the dismissive 'not mandatory' casts a whole different perspective.

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2 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said:

Wild Oats XI navigator Juan Vila told The Daily Telegraph he believed the AIS was turned on for the entire race

that means he was receiving AIS positions.., or he would have known there was a problem.

the way that a boat receives without transmitting.., is by putting the "AIS Transmit" switch at the nav station in the "off" position

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In the interview, the journo asks about the "tracker".

MR replies about the "tracker".  

If the topic is the yellowbrick "tracker" I do not think there is an SI that makes it compulsory.

If the question had been about AIS and MR had answered in the way he did that is different.

He needs to be asked about the AIS.   

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"[It's] a pity that such a great race as this, which has been a close race with all of us changing position all the way down … got bad at the end because someone just doesn't have any regard for the rules."

Black Jack owner Peter Harburg

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12183297

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1 minute ago, DtM said:

In the interview, the journo asks about the "tracker".

MR replies about the "tracker".  

If the topic is the yellowbrick "tracker" I do not think there is an SI that makes it compulsory.

If the question had been about AIS and MR had answered in the way he did that is different.

He needs to be asked about the AIS.   

I think you give him too much credit DT, he knew what he was saying as Black Jack had already flagged it.

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Infotrack owner, Christian Beck also that they had noticed Wild Oats was not transmitting, but said it had no bearing on the race win, as Oats was in sight of the other leaders "at all times".

http://www.mysailing.com.au/offshore/cloud-hangs-over-wild-oats-xi-s-line-honours-victory-in-rolex-sydney-hobart

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Strange that there was not a formal protest lodged, instead an "advisement" to the RC about a possible infringement of the clearly stated rules concerning AIS signal availability within VHF range. It appears WO did not meet that rule and if wise should claim that the AIS system failed, but instead they claim it was not a race requirement.

Really dumb on their part, a one hour penalty is fair, 2nd year they've failed to obey the rules.

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Someone has to protest to make a point.  Again, the shortest protest hearing in history, cite the rule and play MR's interview.  Less than 5 minutes.  

1 minute ago, Mid said:

Again, they never needed their life raft so it's ok they didn't carry it?  Get rid of the rule if it doesn't matter but enforce the rules that are in place.  

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8 minutes ago, DtM said:

In the interview, the journo asks about the "tracker".

MR replies about the "tracker".  

If the topic is the yellowbrick "tracker" I do not think there is an SI that makes it compulsory.

If the question had been about AIS and MR had answered in the way he did that is different.

He needs to be asked about the AIS.   

tracker is required - in the NOR and SI's

 
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2 minutes ago, axolotl said:

Strange that there was not a formal protest lodged, instead an "advisement" to the RC about a possible infringement of the clearly stated rules concerning AIS signal availability within VHF range. It appears WO did not meet that rule and if wise should claim that the AIS system failed, but instead they claim it was not a race requirement.

Really dumb on their part, a one hour penalty is fair, 2nd year they've failed to obey the rules.

The RC will bury their heads in the sand until a formal protest is lodged and then they will give new meaning to the word sheepish.  

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Just now, Cal20sailor said:

Someone has to protest to make a point.  Again, the shortest protest hearing in history, cite the rule and play MR's interview.  Less than 5 minutes.  

Again, they never needed their life raft so it's ok they didn't carry it?  Get rid of the rule if it doesn't matter but enforce the rules that are in place.  

more to the point it's a second source to state the system wasn't functioning .

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2 minutes ago, paps49 said:

Aparently among his many skills Richo can see in the dark!

They'd be better off having several of the posters from here on board, better than seeing in the dark they appear to be mind readers.

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29 minutes ago, stufishing said:

What ramifications? I dare say if the RC decide they need to take a stand, penalising a few boats who didn't feature in any placings shouldn't make their decision any harder

Who says others aren't placing yet?  Lot of race to go.  Just the first few in so far...

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2 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

They'd be better off having several of the posters from here on board, better than seeing in the dark they appear to be mind readers.

Yeah?  Cheato-Richo did not deny the claim.

Pretty simple case of cheating yet again from these cunts.

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Pardon my ignorance but if the AIS unit on the boat is switched on and appears to be working normally isn't the only way of finding out that it is not functioning correctly to be informed by an outside party that it is not transmitting?

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Just now, random said:

Yeah?  Cheato-Richo did not deny the claim.

Pretty simple case of cheating yet again from these cunts.

I think its time you got over Mark Richards banging your girlfriend hard, he gave her back to you what more do you want.

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Just now, Dicko said:

Pardon my ignorance but if the AIS unit on the boat is switched on and appears to be working normally isn't the only way of finding out that it is not functioning correctly to be informed by an outside party that it is not transmitting?

A boat with a budget of millions doesn't have reliable electronics and checked as such? HF failure and now AIS - it is a stretch to believe that.

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8 minutes ago, us7070 said:

tracker is required - in the NOR and SI's

 

I thinker the "tracker" on Oats was operating the whole time.  That is different to the AIS

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24 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

FFS, this is now approaching ridiculous.  Richards knew it was off but the guy who stared at it for 40+ hrs didn't?  You guys have the worst liars.  

Nah mate.  Some bloke you lot put up as leader gets that gong...

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1 minute ago, Dicko said:

Pardon my ignorance but if the AIS unit on the boat is switched on and appears to be working normally isn't the only way of finding out that it is not functioning correctly to be informed by an outside party that it is not transmitting?

Unless I missed something the skipper of WOXI has clearly stated that it was off.  More definitive than anything a competitor could say.  

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1 minute ago, Dicko said:

Pardon my ignorance but if the AIS unit on the boat is switched on and appears to be working normally isn't the only way of finding out that it is not functioning correctly to be informed by an outside party that it is not transmitting?

the fact that they were receiving AIS positions (if they were't, the navigator would have known there was a problem) is pretty good evidence that the unit was working.

the simplest and most likely explanation is that they put the AIS Transmit switch to off

pretty much all race boats have such a switch at the nav station 

apparently they were transmitting at the start.., so someone flicked the switch after the start

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1 minute ago, Boatbeard said:

Nah mate.  Some bloke you lot put up as leader gets that gong...

That's a long shot Boatbeard, you don't know how Cal20 voted but we do know how Richo responded.

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1 minute ago, Boatbeard said:

Nah mate.  Some bloke you lot put up as leader gets that gong...

Agreed in spades.  

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Alive is using their local knowledge to good effect and stretching out on WOX, if anyone's interested.

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Voodoo cutting the corner on Prospector and having a cracking race by the looks of things.

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2 minutes ago, us7070 said:

apparently they were transmitting at the start.., so someone flicked the switch after the start

No they weren't. Stopped 2 hours before.

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1 minute ago, us7070 said:

the fact that they were receiving AIS positions (if they were't, the navigator would have known there was a problem) is pretty good evidence that the unit was working.

the simplest and most likely explanation is that they put the AIS Transmit switch to off

pretty much all race boats have such a switch at the nav station 

apparently they were transmitting at the start.., so someone flicked the switch after the start

So purposely done, the RC has to do something if no one else does.  The integrity of the race is so much bigger than 2018 and WOXI.  Do they really have the LH winning skipper on video saying that he didn't follow the rules?  Uncomfortable yes, but the race deserves better.  

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You are all so channel 7. Most of the fleet are still racing and all you do is chat maxi's.  Get a life guys.

Who gives a fuck about the AIS? None of you wankers are affected by it. If a boat protests it or the RC decides to act, then discuss it.

For now show some respect to the sailors who are on the water and discuss the race.

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1 minute ago, Swanno said:

Voodoo cutting the corner on Prospector and having a cracking race by the looks of things.

Usually not a good corner to cut.

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6 minutes ago, bayboy said:

I think its time you got over Mark Richards banging your girlfriend hard, he gave her back to you what more do you want.

I said it would be ok as long as I could watch.  But he cheated.

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8 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Agreed in spades.  

No fun when leaders at any level don't appear to be worthy of their elevation above the rest of us...

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1 minute ago, hoppy said:

You are all so channel 7. Most of the fleet are still racing and all you do is chat maxi's.  Get a life guys.

Who gives a fuck about the AIS? None of you wankers are affected by it. If a boat protests it or the RC decides to act, then discuss it.

For now show some respect to the sailors who are on the water and discuss the race.

FFS Hoppy not that shit again. Where have you been since the finish while we were discussing the HC situation?? The whole AIS thing only blew up in the last hour.

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7 minutes ago, hoppy said:

You are all so channel 7. Most of the fleet are still racing and all you do is chat maxi's.  Get a life guys.

Who gives a fuck about the AIS? None of you wankers are affected by it. If a boat protests it or the RC decides to act, then discuss it.

For now show some respect to the sailors who are on the water and discuss the race.

Spot on.  The race for outright is between four or five.  The real fleet racing is at least as intense and still unfolding.  

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I'm thinking 1 hour would be the appropriate penalty.

The RC has to clean this mess up.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

11.4 Changes to Special Regulations

Special Regulation 4.09 (a): An AIS Transponder shall be carried and be switched on, such that it is receiving and transmitting.

“It’s not a mandatory thing … we were in sight of each other the whole race, it was that close,” Richards said.

Fuck what is it with this guy? He is he going for some S2H arrogant cunt record?

This is not going away.

 
He’d better brush up on his definitions. 
If it goes to the PC, it’s not looking good on the defence front. Flippant, throw away comments in the public domain are costly. 
 
RYA Race Management Guide 2017–2020:
1.4. TERMINOLOGY
‘Shall’ - mandatory action
‘Will’ - intended action
‘Should’ - best endeavours
‘May’ - optional action
 
 
 
 

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WOXI could win the PR war if they self-reported.  What are the odds?  MR, professional, my ass.  

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

11.4 Changes to Special Regulations

Special Regulation 4.09 (a): An AIS Transponder shall be carried and be switched on, such that it is receiving and transmitting.

“It’s not a mandatory thing … we were in sight of each other the whole race, it was that close,” Richards said.

Fuck what is it with this guy? He is he going for some S2H arrogant cunt record?

This is not going away.

I was of the opinion that it should probably get a slap on the wrist and a warning until he said this. Things break. But he is essentially saying that he knew it was off and possibly that it was a deliberate act. If true this should not go away. It isn't about cheating. As we saw in the VOR,  AIS is a critical part of the MOB rescue system. Had they lost someone overboard at night they would not have been able to locate them until the AIS was back on-line. Now maybe they somehow had it set to receive only, in which case it does become a deliberate act of cheating. But to deliberately disable a safety system is something that cannot be allowed to go away.

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6 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

I was of the opinion that it should probably get a slap on the wrist and a warning until he said this. Things break. But he is essentially saying that he knew it was off and possibly that it was a deliberate act. If true this should not go away. It isn't about cheating. As we saw in the VOR,  AIS is a critical part of the MOB rescue system. Had they lost someone overboard at night they would not have been able to locate them until the AIS was back on-line. Now maybe they somehow had it set to receive only, in which case it does become a deliberate act of cheating. But to deliberately disable a safety system is something that cannot be allowed to go away.

Didnt he answer the question about the tracker and not the AIS.

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2 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Didnt he answer the question about the tracker and not the AIS.

Well, from the other side of the globe I saw their updated positions every 10 mins so I highly doubt he was talking about the tracker being off.  

It's stupid beyond belief that they would have shut it off but that apparently is what they did contravening the rules.  Actions have consequences.  

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7 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

I was of the opinion that it should probably get a slap on the wrist and a warning until he said this. Things break. But he is essentially saying that he knew it was off and possibly that it was a deliberate act. If true this should not go away. It isn't about cheating. As we saw in the VOR,  AIS is a critical part of the MOB rescue system. Had they lost someone overboard at night they would not have been able to locate them until the AIS was back on-line. Now maybe they somehow had it set to receive only, in which case it does become a deliberate act of cheating. But to deliberately disable a safety system is something

like i said in several posts above...

nearly all race boats have a switch to turn AIS transmit off

it leaves AIS reception on.., and  the woxi navigator was certainly looking at AIS positions of other boats the whole race.

Some races don't require AIS transmission for all or part of the race.., but you always want to receive. Bermuda race for example requires you to transmit at the start and finish.., but not in between. However many boats transmit the whole race anyway.., so you want to be able to receive without transmitting - hence the switch

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12 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

WOXI could win the PR war if they self-reported.  What are the odds?  MR, professional, my ass.  

Rob Mundle will have the polish out soon enough

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1 minute ago, Cal20sailor said:

Well, from the other side of the globe I saw their updated positions every 10 mins so I highly doubt he was talking about the tracker being off.  

The reporter asked him a question about the tracker not the AIS

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3 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Didnt he answer the question about the tracker and not the AIS.

if he answered about the tracker he was wrong about that  - doesn't he read the SI's?

no tracker is a DSQ (stated explicitly).., if i were the skipper .., I would know about that....

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My reading of the forecast is that the winner is going to be a boat that get in before the Derwent shuts down tonight. A few days ago the forecast had a fresh northerly to take the IRC 3 & 4 boats home with speed, but now they look like they will have light conditions and more parking to do. 

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2 minutes ago, us7070 said:

if he answered about the tracker he was wrong about that  - doesn't he read the SI's?

no tracker is a DSQ (stated explicitly).., if i were the skipper .., I would know about that....

Serious question, when do you think Ricko read the SIs last? 

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1 minute ago, us7070 said:

if he answered about the tracker he was wrong about that  - doesn't he read the SI's?

no tracker is a DSQ (stated explicitly).., if i were the skipper .., I would know about that....

No shit.  Unless I am mistaken, this race is THE SHOW.  The Daytona 500, Indianapolis 500, Kentucky Derby, World Series, Superbowl of sailing.  How do you fuck up something so simple?  Just don't get it.  

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2 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Serious question, when do you think Ricko read the SIs last? 

He can read?

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2 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Serious question, when do you think Ricko read the SIs last? 

good point!

if i was pretty sure the rules didn't apply to me.., i wouldn't waste my time reading them either!

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What’s the deal with boats being in multiple handicap divisions?  For instance Joy Ride (a Seattle boat that I know and have crewed on) is in IRC3 and ORCi4. 

Can a boat podium in two fleets?

I’m used to seeing two handicap systems mixed, but I haven’t seen boats registered into multiple systems before. 

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3 minutes ago, hoppy said:

My reading of the forecast is that the winner is going to be a boat that get in before the Derwent shuts down tonight. A few days ago the forecast had a fresh northerly to take the IRC 3 & 4 boats home with speed, but now they look like they will have light conditions and more parking to do. 

Yes, I'd rather be Alive than Itchy right now.

 

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2 minutes ago, Alex W said:

What’s the deal with boats being in multiple handicap divisions?  For instance Joy Ride (a Seattle boat that I know and have crewed on) is in IRC3 and ORCi4. 

Can a boat podium in two fleets?

I’m used to seeing two handicap systems mixed, but I haven’t seen boats registered into multiple systems before. 

You can run in as many divisions as you want for most passage races in Aus, since it's all run at the same time and just different numbers crunched at the end. It will usually cost you a few dollars though

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15 minutes ago, hoppy said:

You are all so channel 7. Most of the fleet are still racing and all you do is chat maxi's.  Get a life guys.

Who gives a fuck about the AIS? None of you wankers are affected by it. If a boat protests it or the RC decides to act, then discuss it.

For now show some respect to the sailors who are on the water and discuss the race.

Actually Hoppy, respect for the rules is the most fundamental element of Yacht Racing (Rule 2) When does it stop being wrong and becomes acceptable and unimportant? From your statement you have already crossed that point.

It is a shame that those who switched off their AIS didn't "show some respect to the sailors who are on the water".

Although you claim we "wankers" are unaffected by it, our sport (and that includes the rules) - which most of us respect are - by trickle down if by no other reason - ARE affected by it.

It is actionable by Rule 60.4(2). A technical committee may protest a boat. However it SHALL protest a boat if it decides that a boat or personal equipment does not comply with the class rules. I believe in this race those rules would include the specific instructions in the SI's concerning AIS and other safety requirements.

Note the use of the word SHALL. It is just as mandatory for the Technical Committee as it was for WOXI. Maybe it is a common misunderstanding of the word SHALL in that part of the world.

What the result of that action is I don't know as I am not on the technical committee or protest committee but I am sure they do not, at this moment, lack knowledge of the accusations unless they have been in the pub with the TV switched off for the last several hours.

How severe do the breach of the rules need to be before organisers deem it necessary to protect the reputation of their event by taking action?

And do they ever feel the need to balance a fair event against major supporters or sponsors? 

I don't know the answer to that one, just throwing the question out there.

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9 minutes ago, hoppy said:

My reading of the forecast is that the winner is going to be a boat that get in before the Derwent shuts down tonight......

Looking at it now, it will probably be that Winning is the last boat to get in before the shut down. And the tide is ebbing till around 20:45.

Pick your winner from that lot. The only one it can’t be, sadly, is WOX. Alive saw to that.

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17 minutes ago, hoppy said:

My reading of the forecast is that the winner is going to be a boat that get in before the Derwent shuts down tonight. A few days ago the forecast had a fresh northerly to take the IRC 3 & 4 boats home with speed, but now they look like they will have light conditions and more parking to do. 

By that you are saying Ichi is out because she won't beat the forecast close down around 6/7 which she won't. She still over an hour up her sleeve over Alive.

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1 minute ago, tallyho said:

I keep hitting refresh on the tracker but still see ichi pointing the wrong way. Glitch or problem?

Keep in mind that it only reports the track, not the direction the boat is pointing.  

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3 minutes ago, tallyho said:

I keep hitting refresh on the tracker but still see ichi pointing the wrong way. Glitch or problem?

...or maybe they turned their tracker off :-)

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Tracker hasn't updated for 20 mins Alive been 0.2 from the line for all that time.

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4 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Actually Hoppy, respect for the rules is the most fundamental element of Yacht Racing (Rule 2) When does it stop being wrong and becomes acceptable and unimportant? From your statement you have already crossed that point.

It is a shame that those who switched off their AIS didn't "show some respect to the sailors who are on the water".

Although you claim we "wankers" are unaffected by it, our sport (and that includes the rules) - which most of us respect are - by trickle down if by no other reason - ARE affected by it.

It is actionable by Rule 60.4(2). A technical committee may protest a boat. However it SHALL protest a boat if it decides that a boat or personal equipment does not comply with the class rules. I believe in this race those rules would include the specific instructions in the SI's concerning AIS and other safety requirements.

Note the use of the word SHALL. It is just as mandatory for the Technical Committee as it was for WOXI. Maybe it is a common misunderstanding of the word SHALL in that part of the world.

What the result of that action is I don't know as I am not on the technical committee or protest committee but I am sure they do not, at this moment, lack knowledge of the accusations unless they have been in the pub with the TV switched off for the last several hours.

How severe do the breach of the rules need to be before organisers deem it necessary to protect the reputation of their event by taking action?

And do they ever feel the need to balance a fair event against major supporters or sponsors? 

I don't know the answer to that one, just throwing the question out there.

SS I usually appreciate your comments on rules on this forum however in this case you have already made up your mind a boat is guilty of a breach without hearing any facts except a comment MR made when asked about their "tracker".  The AIS or any other equipment does not come under the Class Rules as this was not a Class event where there is a Class technical committee.  A Race Committee "may" protest a boat but it is mandatory.  It is amazing the number of WO haters out there that have already decided the protest (if there is one held) and already have decided the penalty (if any).  Just because you read it on the internet does not make it true.

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6 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Actually Hoppy, respect for the rules is the most fundamental element of Yacht Racing (Rule 2) When does it stop being wrong and becomes acceptable and unimportant? From your statement you have already crossed that point

I don't disagree, but its not up to the forum's arm chair experts to enforce the rules. You lot can crap on about it for a 100 pages and it makes no difference, it's up to the race committee and so on. 

Create a thread to discuss it and leave the race thread so we can discuss the ongoing racing. 

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6 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Keep in mind that it only reports the track, not the direction the boat is pointing.  

Whats this then?

 

790C19DE-8097-4CDA-BA9B-7CC896C61693.jpeg

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10 minutes ago, tallyho said:

Then why do they have COG as 0?

 

Had a boat lose a tracker during an Adelaide to Lincoln - that registered as 0knots and a heading that had nothing to do with reality...

Also the tracker updates and even the whole system is prone to occasional fails...

Edited by Boatbeard
Thought of something

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