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2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

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In an interesting turn of events, it’s been confirmed that the Rolex Sydney Hobart Race Committee have lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI regarding allegations that their AIS did not transmit throughout the race.

https://livesaildie.com/2018-rolex-sydney-hobart-yacht-race-the-race-committee-has-lodged-a-protest-against-wild-oats-xi/

 

SEPERATE THREAD HERE http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/206079-2018-rolex-sydney-hobart-yacht-race-the-race-committee-has-lodged-a-protest-against-wild-oats-xi/

 

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1 minute ago, Mid said:

2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

https://livesaildie.com/2018-rolex-sydney-hobart-yacht-race-the-race-committee-has-lodged-a-protest-against-wild-oats-xi/

And giving the benefit of doubt that it may have been a technical issue, how was Oats to know they weren't transmitting?  If the navigator was seeing other boats on AIS he would assume theirs was working correctly.

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10 minutes ago, PITA said:

Not sure it's a comparable sitch...?  Not a fan of either but wasn't at least one a gear failure?

But, anyhoo - I don't agree with it... but don't they allow them to go black in the VOR to gain tactical advantage?  Seem to remember that when I was following SCA.

Anyway, I'm off for a QLS tomorrow with blokes who got a helicopter ride home 20 years ago so I doubt anyone will be feeling sympathetic if there's a protest where there's the possibility of a safety issue.

Good Point PITA, I had forgotten about that. Anyway, I'm done with this before I dig myself another hole. :-)

One final point, that being if someone has broken a rule they should expect to have to take the medicine. It is not up to anyone other than the Protest Committee now to decide a) if they did break a rule and b) what that medicine should be. I have strong feelings - based on experience - what that medicine should be if found guilty but once again, that is up to the Protest Committee if necessary.

No doubt we will all find out soon enough.

Goodnight from China.

SS

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I'm a navigator.., and although i've never been on WOXI, (or anything like it), this is something i deal with a lot. I haven't done this race, but have none many bermuda races.., and other comparable offshore races

the first thing is - as the navigator, i own this responsibility - i read the SI's.., and i absolutely make sure we are following the rules. If i fucked up something like  this.., i would expect to never be invited back.

it's clear in this case that they were receiving the whole race but not transmitting (the navigator thought it was on.., which means he was receiving positions)

there are basically two ways you can receive but not transmit:

1) you can turn the transmit switch to "off".., which leaves receive on

2) some sort of gear failure that only affects transmit - much less likely in my view

so the only question is whether they flicked the switch by accident or on purpose

people have asked about "self-test" - there are two easy ways:

1) if you have data access, use an AIS app on a phone

2) there is a built-in way to self-test. when you look at AIS targets on a screen.., the reason you don't see your boat, is beacause you have filtered out your MMSI# - you do this because seeing your AIS icon clutters the display.

to self test - simply turn off that filter and you will see your boat - if you are transmitting

I said above that I own this resposnibility - I do both of these things before the race.., and during it if i have any doubt about whether we are transmitting...

i even do it on deliveries - i want to be sure we are being seen by other boats

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I am impressed by Zoe Taylor on Grace O Malley. Sail Exchange, a fellow Cookson 12 is no slouch and she's comfortably ahead. 

 

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1 hour ago, Mahina said:

Not sure how much can rely on on Marine Traffic. It shows no position for Alive from N/E of Scamander until the start of Storm Bay. This could open up a whole can of worms.

Not exactly a metropolis that stretch. See below.

1 hour ago, TPG said:

It'll be a FUN can of worms!

Quite correct and before this nonsense goes any further. I have already indicated in detail upthread why a interweb AIS recieve platform will lose boats carrying Class B Transceivers with max 2w power (all recreational boats) where their output signal strength is degraded (many boats) in a other than in close proximity to built up areas, commercial shipping, lighthouses etc and even if under a geostationary satellite.

So if you sat down and did a check of all boats in this race you would probably find more drop outs than boats.

The only bit of solid (but untested) evidence floating around at the moment that relies on a Interweb AIS platform showing a boat with its AIS turned off in the proximity of a built up area and where even with degraded output, it will be picked up, is that coming from WOXI. Its last transmission was at 11.11am AEDT on 26 December off Bradleys Head and 2 hours before the start. As an aside looks to me the time and place they would stop head to wind in protected water, hoist the main and put their game faces on.

1575233611_WOXI_AIS_20181226_1111AEDT_A.jpg.dea232899ea948a4abf6cd08d48964f3.jpg414540691_WOXI_AIS_20181226_1111AEDT.jpg.a25ea6e4765f23160df98f2aa5882224.jpg.

     

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Very impressed by the boat WOXI but the skipper not so much.  The RC protest outcome will be whatever it will be but regardless, for the life of me I can not understand how the Oatley family continues to retain Mark Richards as the skipper and face of this program.  His comments last year after the foul and decision.  His comments this year about the rules.  His comments this year mis-stating the number of program LO victories.  The level of his arrogance and ignorance is stunning. How can the Oatley family be anything other than embarrassed by Richards' actions and statements?

But my point and question is actually about Harburg's comment about Black Jack not knowing where WOXI was because WOXI had their AIS turned off.  Like I said the rules are the rules, the decision will be what it will be and Richards is an embarrassment... but given the proximity of the maxis the entire race how the hell does Black Jack not know where WOXI is because they don't have their AIS on?  Am I the only one that thinks Harburg's comments don't pass the sniff test either?  How incompetent do they have to be to not know where WOXI is and what WOXI is doing given the tactical environment and proximity... AIS or no AIS transmission from WOXI.

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

How incompetent do they have to be to not know where WOXI is and what WOXI is doing given the tactical environment and proximity... AIS or no AIS transmission from WOXI.

Bit harsh. It would be easier with AIS regardless of how close they were, especially at night. 

Sad for any race to be decided like this. WOXI deserves the win but...

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

but given the proximity of the maxis the entire race how the hell does Black Jack not know where WOXI is because they don't have their AIS on?  Am I the only one that thinks Harburg's comments don't pass the sniff test either?

Out of sight at times in daylight and then at night and at all times with no indication of heading or boat speed? Smells OK to me.

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7 minutes ago, Wess said:

But my point and question is actually about Harburg's comment about Black Jack not knowing where WOXI was because they their AIS turned off.  Like I said the rules are the rules, the decision will be what it will be and Richards is an embarrassment... but given the proximity of the maxis the entire race how the hell does Black Jack not know where WOXI is because they don't have their AIS on?  Am I the only one that thinks Harburg's comments don't pass the sniff test either?  How incompetent do they have to be to not know where WOXI is and what WOXI is doing given the tactical environment and proximity... AIS or no AIS transmission from WOXI.

from a nav point of view - there is a world of difference between seeing them with your eyes - at a distance.., in the middle of the night...

and having them plotted more or less continuously in expedition from AIS

with AIS  in expedition, you will know SOG COG and will be instantly alerted to a change - trying to make them out at night.., it can be hard to know if theget a kt faster or slower.., or head up 5deg or down 5deg...

also.., what are they going to do - delegate a crewmember to look at WOXI the whole race? the crew have other things to do...and the nav is mostly down below

having AIS position of your competitors is a _CLEAR_ advantage over not having it - even if you can see them

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5 minutes ago, Wess said:

Very impressed by the boat WOXI but the skipper not so much.  The RC protest outcome will be whatever it will be but regardless, for the life of me I can not understand how the Oatley family continues to retain Mark Richards as the skipper and face of this program.  His comments last year after the foul and decision.  His comments this year about the rules.  His comments this year mis-stating the number of program LO victories.  The level of his arrogance and ignorance is stunning. How can the Oatley family be anything other than embarrassed by Richards' actions and statements?

But my point and question is actually about Harburg's comment about Black Jack not knowing where WOXI was because WOXI had their AIS turned off.  Like I said the rules are the rules, the decision will be what it will be and Richards is an embarrassment... but given the proximity of the maxis the entire race how the hell does Black Jack not know where WOXI is because they don't have their AIS on?  Am I the only one that thinks Harburg's comments don't pass the sniff test either?  How incompetent do they have to be to not know where WOXI is and what WOXI is doing given the tactical environment and proximity... AIS or no AIS transmission from WOXI.

True or not I just see Harburg’s comment just a way to reinforce their protest

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17 minutes ago, us7070 said:

I'm a navigator.., and although i've never been on WOXI, (or anything like it), this is something i deal with a lot. I haven't done this race, but have none many bermuda races.., and other comparable offshore races

the first thing is - as the navigator, i own this responsibility - i read the SI's.., and i absolutely make sure we are following the rules. If i fucked up something like  this.., i would expect to never be invited back.

it's clear in this case that they were receiving the whole race but not transmitting (the navigator thought it was on.., which means he was receiving positions)

there are basically two ways you can receive but not transmit:

1) you can turn the transmit switch to "off".., which leaves receive on

2) some sort of gear failure that only affects transmit - much less likely in my view

so the only question is whether they flicked the switch by accident or on purpose

people have asked about "self-test" - there are two easy ways:

1) if you have data access, use an AIS app on a phone

2) there is a built-in way to self-test. when you look at AIS targets on a screen.., the reason you don't see your boat, is beacause you have filtered out your MMSI# - you do this because seeing your AIS icon clutters the display.

to self test - simply turn off that filter and you will see your boat - if you are transmitting

I said above that I own this resposnibility - I do both of these things before the race.., and during it if i have any doubt about whether we are transmitting...

i even do it on deliveries - i want to be sure we are being seen by other boats

Let’s assume that the navigator switched it on before the race and never thought of it again. Would a boat have a control switch for it anywhere else, as in not at the nav station? At the helm perhaps? They have many buttons on their pad at the helm....or, the navigator must have been away from his station to eat, sleep etc - then somebody else sat there and switched it off? Or maybe somebody decided to save power and switched off? The latter I’m guilty off somehow....I thought I did everybody a favor and turned off the fridge. The luke warm beer after the race was not appreciated....

 

anyway, just speculating. It might have gotten switched off deliberately to cheat, or by a freak incident. 

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1 hour ago, TPG said:

Good question. Why does S-H have the always on requirement?

Fishing vessels on Sth coast in particular, AIS beacons on fishing gear etc and a RO that is gun shy about safety post 1998.

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1 minute ago, NORBowGirl said:

Let’s assume that the navigator switched it on before the race and never thought of it again. Would a boat have a control switch for it anywhere else, as in not at the nav station? At the helm perhaps? They have many buttons on their pad at the helm....or, the navigator must have been away from his station to eat, sleep etc - then somebody else sat there and switched it off? Or maybe somebody decided to save power and switched off? The latter I’m guilty off somehow....I thought I did everybody a favor and turned off the fridge. The luke warm beer after the race was not appreciated....

 

anyway, just speculating. It might have gotten switched off deliberately to cheat, or by a freak incident. 

anything is possible...

in my experience there is a switch at the nav station an nowhere else - but on this boat.., who knows?

usually the switch is somewhere that it can't be leaned on and switched by accident.

a crew member on a pro boat would know better than to turn any switches at the nav station without asking the navigator... especially this one!

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2 minutes ago, The Weatherman said:

True or not I just see Harburg’s comment just a way to reinforce their protest

Except BJ hasn't lodged a formal protest.

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I doubt there is an AIS mode switch at the helm - not knowing how WO is setup electronically, there are only so many AIS backbones on the market and I have not yet encountered one where modes can accidentally be switched. 

The easiest way to do this jury is to pull the available data - with racing teams funded at this level, all the data is logged for post-race debrief. Even WO's own data will record whether its AIS was broadcasting (just need to not filter it).

 

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7 minutes ago, Miffy said:

I doubt there is an AIS mode switch at the helm - not knowing how WO is setup electronically, there are only so many AIS backbones on the market and I have not yet encountered one where modes can accidentally be switched. 

i have navigated on many boats - these switches are common.., more than half of the boats i have been on have them.

some units have them built in.., and in other cases the electronics installer has fitted them.

usually the switch is fitted by the installer beacause most race boats have a "black box" AIS - it doesn't have much in the way of buttons, and is often installed out of view

edit - sorry - i misunderstood

you are correct - i have never seen an AIS switch at the helm

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2 minutes ago, us7070 said:

i have navigated on many boats - these switches are common.., more than half of the boats i have been on have them.

some units have them built in.., and in other cases the electronics installer has fitted them.

usually the switch is fitted by the installer beacause most race boats have a "black box" AIS - it doesn't have much in the way of buttons, and is often installed out of view

 

Not at the helm tho

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3 minutes ago, us7070 said:

i have navigated on many boats - these switches are common.., more than half of the boats i have been on have them.

some units have them built in.., and in other cases the electronics installer has fitted them.

usually the switch is fitted by the installer beacause most race boats have a "black box" AIS - it doesn't have much in the way of buttons, and is often installed out of view

 

Yeah, I agree there's normally a 3 pole switch at the nav station for AIS, but I've not seen one that switches transmit only, and I've not seen one fitted to the helm position.

On woxi you've got powered winches, a swing keel, engine controlls at the helm, I can't imagine them having enough real estate to think about putting a god damn ais transmit switch out there

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39 minutes ago, us7070 said:

I'm a navigator.., and although i've never been on WOXI, (or anything like it), this is something i deal with a lot. I haven't done this race, but have none many bermuda races.., and other comparable offshore races

the first thing is - as the navigator, i own this responsibility - i read the SI's.., and i absolutely make sure we are following the rules. If i fucked up something like  this.., i would expect to never be invited back.

it's clear in this case that they were receiving the whole race but not transmitting (the navigator thought it was on.., which means he was receiving positions)

there are basically two ways you can receive but not transmit:

1) you can turn the transmit switch to "off".., which leaves receive on

2) some sort of gear failure that only affects transmit - much less likely in my view

so the only question is whether they flicked the switch by accident or on purpose

people have asked about "self-test" - there are two easy ways:

1) if you have data access, use an AIS app on a phone

2) there is a built-in way to self-test. when you look at AIS targets on a screen.., the reason you don't see your boat, is beacause you have filtered out your MMSI# - you do this because seeing your AIS icon clutters the display.

to self test - simply turn off that filter and you will see your boat - if you are transmitting

I said above that I own this resposnibility - I do both of these things before the race.., and during it if i have any doubt about whether we are transmitting...

i even do it on deliveries - i want to be sure we are being seen by other boats

Good post.  Thanks.

Nearly all AIS transceivers whether A or B have a red light to warn you when they're not transmitting.  As a navigator myself this is one of the many things you check every time you're at the nav station. Just part of the routine.  I even have a checklist for when I'm tired.

And I don't think I've seen one with a built-in hardware switch to turn off transmit.  It's normally a menu function on the connected device, PC or whatever, via USB or NMEA.  

The only way transmit can be 'accidentally' turned off is the old fat fingers on the keyboard excuse.

Please correct me if I've got any of this wrong.

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Just now, jack_sparrow said:

@SCANAS and Trumpcard have hit Hyperspace button. Sitting 12th ORC overall ahead of Hollywood.

Ray won't be happy being 13th.  He hates that number. We were 13th in class in the '83 one on Surefoot and he wasn't happy then either.

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It isn't hard to rig a switch - on many AIS boxes, there's a RS232 and rigging a switch to ground a certain pin will do. We can talk hardware all day but I think the underlying facts are...

1) was there hardware failure? 

2) if not - I don't think specific intent is very relevant.

This is WOs - not a cruiser racer who just spent the last 8 months cruising thru the canal, the Red Sea and can develop a habit of turning off transmit or some old Figaro lame cheat. 

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10 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

Good post.  Thanks.

Nearly all AIS transceivers whether A or B have a red light to warn you when they're not transmitting.  As a navigator myself this is one of the many things you check every time you're at the nav station. Just part of the routine.  I even have a checklist for when I'm tired.

And I don't think I've seen one with a built-in hardware switch to turn off transmit.  It's normally a menu function on the connected device, PC or whatever, via USB or NMEA.  

The only way transmit can be 'accidentally' turned off is the old fat fingers on the keyboard excuse.

Please correct me if I've got any of this wrong.

 

often there is a hard switch - it can be installed by the electronics installer, and about 1/2 the boats i race on have such a switch.

my preference in self testing is to see the icon on the display- so i turn off the MMSI filter

presumably.., that LED would still be flashing if the antenna got disconnected..?

 

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35 minutes ago, us7070 said:

from a nav point of view - there is a world of difference between seeing them with your eyes - at a distance.., in the middle of the night...

and having them plotted more or less continuously in expedition from AIS

with AIS  in expedition, you will know SOG COG and will be instantly alerted to a change - trying to make them out at night.., it can be hard to know if theget a kt faster or slower.., or head up 5deg or down 5deg...

also.., what are they going to do - delegate a crewmember to look at WOXI the whole race? the crew have other things to do...and the nav is mostly down below

having AIS position of your competitors is a _CLEAR_ advantage over not having it - even if you can see them

I am with you  that its easier using AIS.  And to be fair there were other times the separation was much greater and without AIS would be a clear disadvantage, but I was wondering about the critical move of the race when WOXI stayed out to the east rather than close the coast and was able to get around and past.  At that stage I don't believe Blackjack (and the others) does not have "eyes"(or binocs) on her and know where WOXI is and what gybe she is on, etc...

Like I said if WOXI gets DSQed for this you will hear no complaint from me.  It would be as deserved as Richard's sacking would be.  But in terms of the the WOXI move to stay east while the other closed the coast, I believe they all knew exactly where WOXI was and what she was doing and simply put they got it wrong and WOXI got it right.  Not having WOXI on AIS didn't cost Blackjack the race.  Not "covering" that move did.  Of course going forward Richards arrogance and ignorance (and fat mouth) may well and deservedly cost WOXI the race via the protest.

Hey but I also liked the coverage (Nic's and the club's live stream) so what do I know, LOL.

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5 minutes ago, Miffy said:

1) was there hardware failure? 

unlikely - given that woxi was receiving AIS positions

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5 minutes ago, Miffy said:

1) was there hardware failure? 

2) if not - I don't think specific intent is very relevant.

The time and place of failure as indicated by MarineTraffic and Vessel Finder is the damming bit. If TX did fail there, then one would assume it is still failed or has the AIS Tooth Fairy suddenly fixed it? 

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5 minutes ago, us7070 said:

often there is a hard switch - it can be installed by the electronics installer, and about 1/2 the boats i race on have such a switch.

my preference in self testing is to see the icon on the display- so i turn off the MMSI filter

presumably.., that LED would still be flashing if the antenna got disconnected..?

OK, gotcha.  I hadn't seen one built in, but as others have said it's not hard to rig a switch to open or ground one pin.  The anti-pirate angle is correct too.

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

The time and place of failure as indicated by MarineTraffic and Vessel Finder is the damming bit. If TX did fail there, then one would assume it is still failed or has the AIS Tooth Fairy suddenly fixed it? 

Sounds like the WO program needs to learn how to cheat better.
 

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The time and place of failure as indicated by MarineTraffic and Vessel Finder is the damming bit. If TX did fail there, then one would assume it is still failed or has the AIS Tooth Fairy suddenly fixed it? 

again - we know they were receiving...

to argue for a failure.., one would have to argue that it only affected transmit...

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

If TX did fail there,

2 minutes ago, us7070 said:

again - we know they were receiving...

I did say TX

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3 minutes ago, us7070 said:

again - we know they were receiving...

to argue for a failure.., one would have to argue that it only affected transmit...


Walk in there with a broken AIS box but a functioning nmea 2000 VHF radio set w/ an integrated ais receiver. Then have to claim there was a problem before race start and switching data source was the temp workaround. 

They'll have to tamper with a lot of witnesses and equipment - I don't know what the Aussie scene is like, but it sounds like the type of thing you'll get an individual ban vs. just a time penalty for. 

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It may be as simple as they don't normally transmit and are not normally required to. (I don't know what the SIs for other races they do are). Calling them cheats is not appropriate, it may just be a procedural error or a failure (unlikely). I can't think why they would think it would go unnoticed so I'm thinking an error. It would be interesting to see how the boat's AIS is set up. 

 

I guess it could be a TX failure alone...

Edited by Kermit

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My guess it is a very simple setup:

- AIS TX black box with breaker and interfaced to nothing. This can be switched on/off when "needed"

- separate receiver interfaced to plotter, nav SW etc 24/7

I would do it like this, this way you also know for sure when you are transmitting and when you are radio silent by observing your own AIS target on screen.

Bonus points for "smoothing" GPS-data injected to AIS blackbox. Add some secs of delay, jitter on GOC, HDG + SOG (+- 0.5 kts?) and few tens of meters dithering on reported position, does not need to be much to make your dot really jumpy for others and impossible to read accurately, while keeping changes to data small enough not to have impact on collision avoidance.

 

spoofed%20mapais.png

 

That said, AIS spoofing should carry a lifetime ban to those caught doing it.

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4 minutes ago, Kermit said:

It may be as simple as they don't normally transmit and are not normally required to. (I don't know what the SIs for other races they do are). Calling them cheats is not appropriate, it may just be a procedural error or a failure (unlikely). I can't think why they would think it would go unnoticed so I'm thinking an error. It would be interesting to see how the boat's AIS is set up. 

Sorry, but these are highly-paid professionals, running one of the highest-profile racing programs on the planet.  Errors at this level are rare and mostly inexcusable.

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Most units have the facility provided for you.

Just provide any old switch, no power even required .

image.thumb.png.242f4cea6ab3ff12f1b0fa6b4c4de215.png

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9 minutes ago, Kermit said:

It may be as simple as they don't normally transmit and are not normally required to. (I don't know what the SIs for other races they do are).

Vila just went around the orange in the VOR with mandatory AIS transmit and his 3rd S2H in WOXO? Richo has done a few S2H and both doing it for a living.

I think that is a oops moment.

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3 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

Sorry, but these are highly-paid professionals, running one of the highest-profile racing programs on the planet.  Errors at this level are rare and mostly inexcusable.

I would have that same opinion if I was paying the bills. 

I'm not excusing, simply musing. Surely it wasn't on purpose.

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If a boat the size and performance and with the funding of WO program regularly doesn't transmit, then the Aussie scene is in a sorry state. 

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

BTW whose Shirley?

Not this guy.

73mcth.jpg

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Don't go to the race Facebook page. It is like walking into a dementia ward after they have handed out the speed.

Comments like this abound.

"But on the website the race tracker is seen by thousands same type of tracking system!"

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I would have put their odds at the Protest Hearing at better than 50% IF, Richards hadn't made his inane comment.  They lose the protest when that video is played.  Agree with Wess, he isn't the right leader for a family with such a great history in this sport.  

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1 minute ago, Cal20sailor said:

I would have put their odds at the Protest Hearing at better than 50% IF, Richards hadn't made his inane comment.  They lose the protest when that video is played.  Agree with Wess, he isn't the right leader for a family with such a great history in this sport.  

He’s not really a good example for up and coming sailors either. 

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1 minute ago, mad said:

He’s not really a good example for up and coming sailors either. 

Yes, he does come across as, how shall I put this, a total cockwomble.

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1 hour ago, us7070 said:

I'm a navigator.., and although i've never been on WOXI, (or anything like it), this is something i deal with a lot. I haven't done this race, but have none many bermuda races.., and other comparable offshore races

the first thing is - as the navigator, i own this responsibility - i read the SI's.., and i absolutely make sure we are following the rules. If i fucked up something like  this.., i would expect to never be invited back.

it's clear in this case that they were receiving the whole race but not transmitting (the navigator thought it was on.., which means he was receiving positions)

there are basically two ways you can receive but not transmit:

1) you can turn the transmit switch to "off".., which leaves receive on

2) some sort of gear failure that only affects transmit - much less likely in my view

so the only question is whether they flicked the switch by accident or on purpose

people have asked about "self-test" - there are two easy ways:

1) if you have data access, use an AIS app on a phone

2) there is a built-in way to self-test. when you look at AIS targets on a screen.., the reason you don't see your boat, is beacause you have filtered out your MMSI# - you do this because seeing your AIS icon clutters the display.

to self test - simply turn off that filter and you will see your boat - if you are transmitting

I said above that I own this resposnibility - I do both of these things before the race.., and during it if i have any doubt about whether we are transmitting...

i even do it on deliveries - i want to be sure we are being seen by other boats

absolutely agreed. I also highly doubt a gear failure, we're talking about a no expense spared grand prix racing yacht whose systems were undoubtedly set up by some of the best systems techs in the business and modern AIS systems are exceptionally reliable. it's alos worth noting that the conditions this year weren't at all extreme so nothing on the boats was getting seriously jarred around as has been the case in previous years. 

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AMEC CAMINO-101 Class B AIS transponder

Quote

Can use external GPS data source from other navigational devices through NMEA0183 input

Brilliant, that and 10 USD Arduino clone + few lines of code, and you can spoof your wind shifts as low/high as you wish.

http://www.pronav.fi/pdf/CAMINO-101.pdf

Imagine you spoofing your layline not quite making it to a mark, and then rounding it cleanly as if by magic. Limitless options for "fair play".

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58 minutes ago, Maw said:

Most units have the facility provided for you.

Just provide any old switch, no power even required .

image.thumb.png.242f4cea6ab3ff12f1b0fa6b4c4de215.png

Well that's easy, isn't it?  I guess I never RTFM.

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8 minutes ago, noaano said:

Can use external GPS data source from other navigational devices through NMEA0183 input

You actually can't by law. Approved Class B Transceivers must have their own dedicated GPS in I think most communication jurisdictions?

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4 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

You actually can't by law. Approved Class B Transceivers must have their own dedicated GPS in I think most communication jurisdictions?

Well the one I linked can off the shelf.

And it is claiming:

Quote

Fully compliant with IEC 62287-1 standard

Plus I would not think it is that hard to do on any unit if one wishes this, they all have common GPS modules inside with all the necessary pinouts and datasheets available on internet.

 

Anyways for The Unit In Question, now would be a good time to turn it on and see if it is indeed faulty, or working and reporting to Marinetraffic like other boats, and how it is wired especially regards to TX switch. I can even see WOX + many others online right now.

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8 minutes ago, noaano said:

Well the one I linked can off the shelf.

And it is claiming:

Plus I would not think it is that hard to do on any unit if one wishes this, they all have common GPS modules inside with all the necessary pinouts and datasheets available on internet.

 

Anyways for The Unit In Question, now would be a good time to turn it on and see if it is indeed faulty, or working and reporting to Marinetraffic like other boats, and how it is wired especially regards to TX switch. I can even see WOX + many others online right now.

It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to see WOXI pop up on Marinetraffic in the next few hours while getting inspected. 

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4 minutes ago, Monkey said:

It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to see WOXI pop up on Marinetraffic in the next few hours while getting inspected. 

Unless of course somebody is busy fixing it to have a fault? :ph34r:

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5 minutes ago, Monkey said:

It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to see WOXI pop up on Marinetraffic in the next few hours while getting inspected. 

The facts found in this one are going to make interesting reading!

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7 minutes ago, Monkey said:

It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to see WOXI pop up on Marinetraffic in the next few hours while getting inspected. 

I think her system is back on now. if the RC is really being serious when they inspect her they'll bring a systems tech with them or better yet a company trained tech with system specific knowledge. I don't know what AIS unit WOXI has but many electronics, marine and otherwise keep a record of system faults to aid in repair if the units gets sent back to the manufacturer for service.

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I'm sure one of the requirements of the race are tapered plugs for each through-hull fitting.  One of the crew should have been assigned the job of pounding one into Richards' mouth before hitting shore.  

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12 minutes ago, noaano said:

Well the one I linked can off the shelf.

..Fully compliant with IEC 62287-1 standard..

You are missing the point. You said.

31 minutes ago, noaano said:

Can use external GPS data source from other navigational devices through NMEA0183 input

That IEC standard applies to the AIS unit itself. Approved Class B AIS units can have standalone GPS or a remote GPS input via NMEA.

It is the Communication Standard applicable to each country that stipulates that the AIS GPS input cannot be from a shared device with GPS.

This standalone AIS GPS requirement is there to preserve the positional  integrity of a Class B transmission.  

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6 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I'm sure one of the requirements of the race are tapered plugs for each through-hull fitting.  One of the crew should have been assigned the job of pounding one into Richards' mouth before hitting shore.  

With his screaming during the starts, I’m surprised nobody did this years ago. 

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9 minutes ago, mad said:

Unless of course somebody is busy fixing it to have a fault? :ph34r:

This is a self policing sport. The end of race declaration as lodged by Richo is what will be relied upon surely. What can go wrong?

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3 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

This is a self policing sport. The end of race declaration as lodged by Richo is what will be relied upon surely. What can go wrong?

Anybody with a blank copy of the declaration?

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13 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I'm sure one of the requirements of the race are tapered plugs for each through-hull fitting.  One of the crew should have been assigned the job of pounding one into Richards' mouth before hitting shore.  

and just put the dude ashore and be done with him already. 

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14 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

You are missing the point. You said.

That IEC standard applies to the AIS unit itself. Approved Class B AIS units can have standalone GPS or a remote GPS input via NMEA.

It is the Communication Standard applicable to each country that stipulates that the AIS GPS input cannot be from a shared device with GPS.

This standalone AIS GPS requirement is there to preserve the positional  integrity of a Class B transmission.  

I don't understand what you say. Clearly there is a AIS-TX-unit on market with external GPS position input via NMEA 0183 that anyone with even the most basic knowledge can spoof. If such a unit is used, how could this be found out easily?

Btw even that won't help that much. If there is way, there is will:

Labsat3-Front-Lit-Up.jpg

This unit can generate user requested trajectories in real time, or play back recordings.

This unit costs peanuts to these teams.

BTW WoXI still in Sydney, according to Marinetraffic.  Even short flick of TX switch would teleport her to Hobart in an instant, if the AIS box has indeed not failed that is.

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5 minutes ago, noaano said:

I don't understand what you say. Clearly there is a AIS-TX-unit on market with external GPS position input via NMEA 0183 that anyone with even the most basic knowledge can spoof. If such a unit is used, how could this be found out easily?

Btw even that won't help that much. If there is way, there is will:

 

Virtual AIS...

when you see a windfarm at sea.., where each of the windmills displays an AIS position on your chart plotter..., it is often the case that there is no AIS transmitter on the windmill - the AIS positions are all broadcast from (possibly) a single AIS transmitter that might even be on shore...

not sure what the relevance is to the present situation though...

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2 minutes ago, noaano said:

don't understand what you say. Clearly there is a AIS-TX-unit on market with external GPS position input via NMEA 0183 that anyone with even the most basic knowledge can spoof.

There lots like that and I give up. Maybe check out the fines listed by your countries Communication Authority and in conjunction  with your national Maritime Safety Authorty for fucking with Class B AIS Transmissions.

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spare a thought for the jury...., their vacation just got ruined.

do they have security for those guys?

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3 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Maybe check out the fines listed by your countries Communication Authority and in conjunction  with your national Maritime Safety Authorty for fucking with Class B AIS Transmissions.

I know they are steep, but also the chance of getting caught is rather minimal, before they introduce techniques like MLAT to Marinetraffic etc that is. And even those techniques would not reveal subtle tampering, which would be still enough to make your AIS signal quite useless as a tactical aid to boats nearby. Say making your COG +- 10 deg, SOG +- 1.0 kts, no one would notice this from Marinetraffic.

That is why I proposed a lifetime ban to anyone caught doing it. Just like doping, which is also illegal where I live and with steep fines, and still it is done on every level of sports.

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Privateer did well to be 3rd in IRC 0.

I think a cookson 50 sold recently in australia - does anyone know about what it sold for?

 

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I have the option on my NMEA 2k Digital Yacht AIS transponder to turn transmit on or off.
On mine its a faff to do as the unit is hidden away behind a panel.
I've fitted Garmin, B&G and ramarine AIS transponders over the last year at the yard and all have the option to turn transmit on and off.
In my view this is not something that could be done accidentally.

I use a seperate VHF antenna on the pushpit for my ais, as I find I dont need more than 20 miles range plus if I lose the rig over the side I've always got a spare antenna rigged up for the vhf.

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1 minute ago, GBR562 said:

I have the option on my NMEA 2k Digital Yacht AIS transponder to turn transmit on or off.
On mine its a faff to do as the unit is hidden away behind a panel.
I've fitted Garmin, B&G and ramarine AIS transponders over the last year at the yard and all have the option to turn transmit on and off.
In my view this is not something that could be done accidentally.

I use a seperate VHF antenna on the pushpit for my ais, as I find I dont need more than 20 miles range plus if I lose the rig over the side I've always got a spare antenna rigged up for the vhf.

vesper units have a similar option. 

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2 minutes ago, GBR562 said:

I have the option on my NMEA 2k Digital Yacht AIS transponder to turn transmit on or off.
On mine its a faff to do as the unit is hidden away behind a panel.
I've fitted Garmin, B&G and ramarine AIS transponders over the last year at the yard and all have the option to turn transmit on and off.
In my view this is not something that could be done accidentally.

I use a seperate VHF antenna on the pushpit for my ais, as I find I dont need more than 20 miles range plus if I lose the rig over the side I've always got a spare antenna rigged up for the vhf.

i'm not sure but CAT 0,1, and 2 might require a masthead AIS antenna

most boats use a splitter

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30 minutes ago, noaano said:

Say making your COG +- 10 deg, SOG +- 1.0 kts, no one would notice this from Marinetraffic.

I doubt the supertanker that just ran over you because you spoofed your position wouldn't notice either.

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1 minute ago, us7070 said:

i'm not sure but CAT 0,1, and 2 might require a masthead AIS antenna

most boats use a splitter

Splitters are notorious for puking themselves too.

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Evidence is pretty freaking clear.  These are the three tracks of Comanche, Black Jack, and WOXI.  The one that goes in a straight line from Sydney to Hobart is WOXI.  Data comes from bigoceandata.com, AIS data is pulled from terrestial and satellite feeds.  

image.thumb.png.70e4472c4b16ceb3be9a1ceea3d0751f.png

image.thumb.png.eea010d795927c6a7734ae106117aa9f.png

 

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36 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I'm sure one of the requirements of the race are tapered plugs for each through-hull fitting.  One of the crew should have been assigned the job of pounding one into Richards' mouth before hitting shore.  

Best comment yet.

I haven't bothered to stroll back through the thread to see all of the comments.  One thing that stands out to me though.  Surely each team, especially the gold plate LH contenders make sure that their AIS transmitters are operating as required under the S.I.'s. Before and going into the race.  I do before every offshore event.

Also, this question was raised early during the race. Why did the RC and protest committee wait until BJ acted, and not act under their own auspices? 

Maybe I misunderstood the reporting of the sequence of events. 

Again, I haven't bothered to go far back in the thread so apologies if these questions have already been raised.

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4 minutes ago, us7070 said:

i'm not sure but CAT 0,1, and 2 might require a masthead AIS antenna

most boats use a splitter

No VHF is mastead mandatory. AIS can share via splitter or standalone out the back to prescriptive location and size.

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

No VHF is mastead mandatory. AIS can share via splitter or standalone out the back to prescriptive location and size.

Right.  Most big boats will have 2 AIS antennas on the comms post at the stern, GPS and TX/RX.

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8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

No VHF is mastead mandatory. AIS can share via splitter or standalone out the back to prescriptive location and size.

 

6 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

Right.  Most big boats will have 2 AIS antennas on the comms post at the stern, GPS and TX/RX.

i just checked ORC CAT 0 and 1 - it says the _base_ of the AIS antenna must be 3m or 10ft above the waterline

so an AIS antenna on the stern  will likely not meet that requirement.

I think all the boats i have done a CAT 1 race on have had a masthead antenna with a splitter

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1 minute ago, us7070 said:

 

i just checked ORC CAT 0 and 1 - it says the _base_ of the AIS antenna must be 3m or 10ft above the waterline

so an AIS antenna on the stern  will likely not meet that requirement.

I think all the boats i have done a CAT 1 race on have had a masthead antenna with a splitter

Well, again thanks for the correction.  

I'm a bit old school.  Handy with the towed log, hourglass and astrolabe.  Lost skills those!

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6 minutes ago, Just A Skosh said:

Evidence is pretty freaking clear.  These are the three tracks of Comanche, Black Jack, and WOXI.  The one that goes in a straight line from Sydney to Hobart is WOXI. 

Well that answers the question. At 2.00pm local time WOXI's AIS suddenly sprung to life.This is bordering on comical.

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

Well that answers the question. At 2.00pm local time WOXI's AIS suddenly sprung to life.This is bordering on comical.

What did you know and when did you stop knowing it?  I agree, this will be the story from this race which is a shame for the other competitors.  

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This is all such a sour story.  Will the facts come out?

It seems a bit like some of the bad days in the 70s.  I remember a slow drifting offshore race at night in the English Channel, and suddenly the boat a clear mile behind is no longer visible.  Must be a short in the nav lights, you think.  Then you hear a gentle "tuf, tuf, tuf, tuf..." going past in the darkness a few hundred yards away.  It must be a fishing boat with no lights, you think.  Just before dawn a stern light springs into view a mile ahead of you, to windward.  Where did he come from?
 
Bollocks then, bollocks now.

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22 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

I doubt the supertanker that just ran over you wouldn't notice either.

FYI, supertankers a) usually filter class B targets and b) won't dodge you anyway.

And you are also missing the point. I was talking about slight +- 1 kts magnitude changes to mess up the tactical situation display, not to affect collision avoidance at all. If these changes cause you to collide with said supertanker, you're doing it wrong.

20 minutes ago, Just A Skosh said:

Evidence is pretty freaking clear.  These are the three tracks of Comanche, Black Jack, and WOXI.  The one that goes in a straight line from Sydney to Hobart is WOXI.  Data comes from bigoceandata.com, AIS data is pulled from terrestial and satellite feeds.  

Very interesting. Maritraffic still has her in Sydney.

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