bigrpowr

Sydney To Hobart 2018

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6 minutes ago, Irish River said:

What penalty should be applied? To elapsed? Corrected? DSQ?

  I've been on a boat that was penalized on corrected for missing scheds, our Sat phone shit the bed, and we tried other means, but couldn't check in. I would argue this is a corrected time penalty. It not that BJ, Info or Comanche couldn't sail their own race. 

we can dispute the significance.., but other boats were definitely disadvantaged by not being able to see WOXI on AIS

don't forget - WOXI was seeing them on AIS...

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What happens for all the betting companies that have paid out on a WOXI win? 

Can they politely ask that the family pick up the bill? Especially as this maybe the second year running. 

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hehehe

 

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14 minutes ago, Irish River said:

What penalty should be applied? To elapsed? Corrected? DSQ?

DSQ, if it was done on purpose. No other option.

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14 minutes ago, us7070 said:

we can dispute the significance.., but other boats were definitely disadvantaged by not being able to see WOXI on AIS

don't forget - WOXI was seeing them on AIS...

They have radar, they have the proper compass to have marpa overlay. You can't tell me you haven't used it before to look at what another boat is doing.

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11 minutes ago, mad said:

What happens for all the betting companies that have paid out on a WOXI win? 

Can they politely ask that the family pick up the bill? Especially as this maybe the second year running. 

Insurance

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59 minutes ago, Just A Skosh said:

Evidence is pretty freaking clear.  These are the three tracks of Comanche, Black Jack, and WOXI.  The one that goes in a straight line from Sydney to Hobart is WOXI.  Data comes from bigoceandata.com, AIS data is pulled from terrestial and satellite feeds.  

image.thumb.png.70e4472c4b16ceb3be9a1ceea3d0751f.png

image.thumb.png.eea010d795927c6a7734ae106117aa9f.png

 

The fanboys kept insisting she was the best around at VMG running. I’m now prepared to eat crow and agree!  That’s impressive!!

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2 minutes ago, TPG said:

They have radar, they have the proper compass to have marpa overlay. You can't tell me you haven't used it before to look at what another boat is doing.

They broke a rule, are all rules created equal or not?  I think they get chucked after sailing a really nice race. 

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3 minutes ago, TPG said:

They have radar, they have the proper compass to have marpa overlay. You can't tell me you haven't used it before to look at what another boat is doing.

Yes but what competent tactician relies on a single point of data to make significant decisions? WOXI failing to transmit undeniably had a negative impact on the other boats in regards to the information they were seeing.

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9 minutes ago, TPG said:

They have radar, they have the proper compass to have marpa overlay. You can't tell me you haven't used it before to look at what another boat is doing.

sure

but AIS is easier and better - look.., it;s the middle of the night.., you're the navigator and you haven't slept  - you want to fuck with marpa?

also expedition has specific functions  to track ais locations and compute the competitors performance from them, and it can't do that with radar locations

also - the part you are forgetting is that WOXI navigator had and used the AIS positions of the other boats

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27 minutes ago, Irish River said:

What penalty should be applied? To elapsed? Corrected? DSQ?

  I've been on a boat that was penalized on corrected for missing scheds, our Sat phone shit the bed, and we tried other means, but couldn't check in. I would argue this is a corrected time penalty. It not that BJ, Info or Comanche couldn't sail their own race. 

If it just came back to life because of a repair, I’d vote time penalty. If it came back to life because it was turned off, I don’t really see any choice but DSQ. 

Either way, they’ll probably lose line honors again for a stupid decision. 

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Can a time penalty be assessed for a Rule 69 infraction? If it was really turned off on purpose then this goes beyond compliance and becomes malevolence - which certainly meets the threshold for “misconduct”

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2 minutes ago, Monkey said:

If it just came back to life because of a repair, I’d vote time penalty. If it came back to life because it was turned off, I don’t really see any choice but DSQ. 

Either way, they’ll probably lose line honors again for a stupid decision. 

Stupid just doesn't seem strong enough.  Idiotic, moronic, crazy, just to start.  In the real world people get fired for a lot less.  

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1 minute ago, jackolantern said:

Can a time penalty be assessed for a Rule 69 infraction? If it was really turned off on purpose then this goes beyond compliance and becomes malevolence - which certainly meets the threshold for “misconduct”

the simple explanation is that it was turned off because someone didn't read the SI's carefully...

there is no rule 69 issue here - relax!

 

 

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1 minute ago, us7070 said:

the simple explanation is that it was turned off because someone didn't read the SI's carefully...

there is no rule 69 issue here - relax!

I'd say losing LH for the second year in a row is punishment enough.  

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11 minutes ago, us7070 said:

sure

but AIS is easier and better - look.., it;s the middle of the night.., you're the navigator and you haven't slept  - you want to fuck with marpa?

also expedition has specific functions  to track ais locations and compute the competitors performance from them, and it can't do that with radar locations

also - the part you are forgetting is that WOXI navigator had and used the AIS positions of the other boats

Move cursor to target. Hit marpa button. Watch side panel with target data. You sure you've used marpa?

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2 minutes ago, TPG said:

Move cursor to target. Hit marpa button. Watch side panel with target data. You sure you've used marpa?

navigators work in expedition

the radar overlay in expedition is very poor and nobody uses it

i want all my info in expedition - i don't want some in expedition and some on the radar

if their AIS is transmitting.., i have it all in expedition.., if it isn't.., i don't

if they have my AIS info in expedition.., and I don't have their AIS info in expedition.., they have an advantage. full stop.

 

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4 hours ago, us7070 said:

from a nav point of view - there is a world of difference between seeing them with your eyes - at a distance.., in the middle of the night...

and having them plotted more or less continuously in expedition from AIS

with AIS  in expedition, you will know SOG COG and will be instantly alerted to a change - trying to make them out at night.., it can be hard to know if theget a kt faster or slower.., or head up 5deg or down 5deg...

also.., what are they going to do - delegate a crewmember to look at WOXI the whole race? the crew have other things to do...and the nav is mostly down below

having AIS position of your competitors is a _CLEAR_ advantage over not having it - even if you can see them

^This. AIS gives you their position and their COG and SOG. In a race where it is vital to play the shifts and avoid the holes, this is valuable data.

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There were 10% time penalty for not using nav lights (electrical failure) in Offshore Worlds this year.

10% sounds good for making yourself invisible for short time period.

But whole race without AIS?

 

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3 minutes ago, us7070 said:

navigators work in expedition

the radar overlay in expedition is very poor and nobody uses it

i want all my info in expedition - i don't want some in expedition and some on the radar

if their AIS is transmitting.., i have it all in expedition.., if it isn't.., i don't

if they have my AIS info in expedition.., and I don't have their AIS info in expedition.., they have an advantage. full stop.

 

Expedition supports marpa. Now you're just arguing to argue.

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3 minutes ago, TPG said:

Expedition supports marpa. Now you're just arguing to argue.

most installations are not configured so expedition can get radar data

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18 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Can a time penalty be assessed for a Rule 69 infraction? If it was really turned off on purpose then this goes beyond compliance and becomes malevolence - which certainly meets the threshold for “misconduct”

Just curious, but who are you expecting an R69 against?  So far in the public statements, MR demonstrated stupid, and JV went with vague, but denying wrong doing. In theory,  all they have to do is say MR turned it off and JV didn’t notice. Still a DSQ, and likely full of shit, but probably enough to skate. 

Edit:  forgot the third option of a simple malfunction. 

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Just now, us7070 said:

most installations are not configured so expedition can get radar data

But you have ALL THE DATAS IN THE EXPEDITIONS?!??!?!?!?! :rolleyes:

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2 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Just curious, but who are you expecting an R69 against?  So far in the public statements, MR demonstrated stupid, and JV went with vague, but denying wrong doing. In theory,  all they have to do is say MR turned it off and JV didn’t notice. Still a DSQ, and likely full of shit, but probably enough to skate. 

Edit:  forgot the third option of a simple malfunction

If it was a simple malfunction why did it mysteriously turn back on in Hobart?  They're going to have to make a very strong case as to what the malfunction was, and when they fixed it.  If that's what they choose to argue.  

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2 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Just curious, but who are you expecting an R69 against?  So far in the public statements, MR demonstrated stupid, and JV went with vague, but denying wrong doing. In theory,  all they have to do is say MR turned it off and JV didn’t notice. Still a DSQ, and likely full of shit, but probably enough to skate. 

Where do they skate to?  The unemployment office.  A world class program requires a world class skipper and I'm not sure what else MR can do to get fired.  

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2 minutes ago, TPG said:

But you have ALL THE DATAS IN THE EXPEDITIONS?!??!?!?!?! :rolleyes:

you originally suggested that radar could be used in place of AIS

in most installations.., nothing from radar gets in to expedition

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1 minute ago, us7070 said:

you originally suggested that radar could be used in place of AIS

in most installations.., nothing from radar gets in to expedition

You demanded that all data be in expedition. Clearly you don't have all of it.

So back on topic and not "your particular data" the fact remains Ricko has made a couple colossally stupid statements two years in a row. Not sure even the old man's prior blessings will keep him employed with the Oatleys. He's doing just fine looking pretty in his Nantucket reds schtooping for Palm Beach Yachts though. Most if not all people who are shopping for those couldn't give a shit about a sailboat race.

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2 minutes ago, TPG said:

You demanded that all data be in expedition. Clearly you don't have all of it.

i give up

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2 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Where do they skate to?  The unemployment office.  A world class program requires a world class skipper and I'm not sure what else MR can do to get fired.  

Not so much him, but the pro navigator. 

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3 hours ago, Kermit said:

I'm not excusing, simply musing. Surely it wasn't on purpose.

Does that matter?  IF the rules say "must transmit", then... must transmit.  Whether they didn't transmit because of error or intent doesn't matter, either way they were not in compliance.

Even moreso for "highly paid professionals".  they, above all, should be paying attention to the details of rules compliance. 

someone once told me "a professional is one who is committed to eliminating error and inefficiency in the pursuit of excellence - it has nothing to do with money".   I agree... even if accidental, this is a failure to *ensure* compliance.

 

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24 minutes ago, TPG said:

Move cursor to target. Hit marpa button. Watch side panel with target data. You sure you've used marpa?

Observe tracking wandering from boat to a passing wake. Get SOG and COG readings all over the place. Get distracted by constant "target lost" alarm. You sure you've used marpa?

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1 minute ago, Monkey said:

Not so much him, but the pro navigator. 

Doesn't the buck stop with him?

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3 minutes ago, Just A Skosh said:

If it was a simple malfunction why did it mysteriously turn back on in Hobart?  They're going to have to make a very strong case as to what the malfunction was, and when they fixed it.  If that's what they choose to argue.  

I’m simply leaving every option out there til the facts come out. Perhaps they found a loose wire during inspection. 

I have my own opinion, which I’ve made obvious, just not willing to hang them on my opinion. 

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I think we're ignoring or demoting the word "shall" in the SIs.  It's mandatory.  No wriggle room, really.  Of course a good defense attorney could argue that it came unplugged, or got soaked in the knockdown, or the naviguesser pissed on it or the dog ate the homework, but it really doesn't help much. 

I got binned from an offshore because our SSB antenna tuner decided it wouldn't go from 2 megs to 4 for the skeds.  No TX.  DSQ.

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1 minute ago, noaano said:

Observe tracking wandering from boat to passing wake. Get SOG and COG readings all over the place. Get distracted by constant "target lost" alarm. You sure you've used marpa?

You CLEARLY haven't since about 1985 if your radar is that shitty.

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7 minutes ago, TPG said:

You CLEARLY haven't since about 1985 if your radar is that shitty.

Mine isn't, but the fact that I’ve got one that says TT instead of MARPA might make the difference.

The new solid state doppler units are getting better, but it is still night and day compared to GPS derived AIS data.

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21 minutes ago, TPG said:

A kingdom for a live feed of that.

The look on his face if they get flicked will be priceless. 

 

19C2D657-1591-4311-A901-17EB9CC8F8CD.png

He could end up with a collection at this rate. 

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4 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Ray won't be happy being 13th.  He hates that number. We were 13th in class in the '83 one on Surefoot and he wasn't happy then either.

Well, Hollywood Boluevard was 13th over the line, and 13th in IRC, so he got the double.  Oh, boy....  Anyone who sees him in Taswegia, please get him a middie from me.

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By the way: could you guys just stop using those stupid two-letter acronyms? This is not the Fucking America's Cup. Thank you! 

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5 minutes ago, 10thTonner said:

By the way: could you guys just stop using those stupid two-letter acronyms? This is not the Fucking America's Cup. Thank you! 

FU

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2 hours ago, Just A Skosh said:

Evidence is pretty freaking clear.  These are the three tracks of Comanche, Black Jack, and WOXI.  The one that goes in a straight line from Sydney to Hobart is WOXI.  Data comes from bigoceandata.com, AIS data is pulled from terrestial and satellite feeds.  

image.thumb.png.70e4472c4b16ceb3be9a1ceea3d0751f.png

image.thumb.png.eea010d795927c6a7734ae106117aa9f.png

 

Would like to see one of these on Infotrack...

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So new question. How would HUGO BOSS or another one of the IMOCA 60' foilers have done in this race?

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Just now, FINS said:

So new question. How would HUGO BOSS or another one of the IMOCA 60' foilers have done in this race?

Not enough runway or wind.

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5 minutes ago, TPG said:

Not enough runway or wind.

Probably between the canting RP66s and the 50s. Look at the performance Boss had at the 2017 fastnet, particularly on the upwind to the rock. 

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12 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

[   .   .   .   ]

In the case of AIS and VHF sharing the same coax cable and antenna it would involve testing with a Power Meter to measure the forward power (from the device to the coax) and the reflected power (from the coax back to the device) with and without antenna. 

I strongly suggest not testing transmit power using an SWR meter without having an antenna (or dummy load) connected.  It's quite possible you'll  damage the device.

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Just saw the news and I am pleasantly surprised about the protest.

Sailing needs to be kept as clean as possible.  The job the PC has should be relatively simple but the pressure on all concerned is something no one needs.

For something like this to happen two years in a row, it indicates a culture common to bully boys used to having the best toy in the sandpit, unable to deal with competition and not expecting to be held to the same standards as the other kids, surprised and indignant when they are.

MR's behavior when they were penalised last year was disgraceful, this year to claim it was their 10th LH win was also disgraceful and would have no doubt pissed-off all concerned at the organising authority in Hobart.  Let's see what the stupid fuk says this time.

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All the talk seemed to be about the 5 100s and huge group of fast 50s. But when was the last time we had this many competitive 60-70 foot boats in the S2H? 

Winning Appliances-Carkeek 60

Voodoo- RP63

Prospector- Mills 68

Alive- RP66

WOX- RP66

 

And maybe a little less competitive but Naval Group:RP69..

 

 

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6 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Good Point PITA, I had forgotten about that. Anyway, I'm done with this before I dig myself another hole. :-)

One final point, that being if someone has broken a rule they should expect to have to take the medicine. It is not up to anyone other than the Protest Committee now to decide a) if they did break a rule and b) what that medicine should be. I have strong feelings - based on experience - what that medicine should be if found guilty but once again, that is up to the Protest Committee if necessary.

No doubt we will all find out soon enough.

Goodnight from China.

SS

It's a competition, the same as any other competition in any other sport, you line up and compete according to the same rules as everyone else. All competitors who choose to line up, have the same opportunity. Their choice of equipment, and decisions during the course of the competition, and outcomes of those decisions, determine the finish place. No competitor has a choice to pick and choose which rules  they will and won't comply with.

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8 minutes ago, Flags said:

No competitor has a choice to pick and choose which rules  they will and won't comply with.

^^^ this

Plus, "comply" is a binary: you either did or you didn't.  "I didn't mean to go around the wrong side of the mark" or "I didn't know that was a mark of the course" have no weight... you either went around the right side of the right mark or you didn't, and if you didn't, a penalty should accrue. 

So it should be with "I didn't mean to turn off the AIS" or "I didn't know we weren't transmitting as required"

The only place it becomes more than a binary (did comply or didn't comply) is if the question of intent is *also* in play.  If it is found that there was *intent* to turn off the AIS, in knowing violation of the SIs, then I think R69 should *also* come into the picture.

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1 hour ago, lahana said:

Would like to see one of these on Infotrack...

That's very interesting...  Latest AIS data from them is from 12/16.  Absolutely jack shit since then.  And the MMSI registry doesn't appear to have been updated for the name change.

image.thumb.png.b0f9d262f510a36568d38726223a6582.png

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5 minutes ago, Just A Skosh said:

That's very interesting...  Latest AIS data from them is from 12/16.  Absolutely jack shit since then.  And the MMSI registry doesn't appear to have been updated for the name change.

image.thumb.png.b0f9d262f510a36568d38726223a6582.png

There has been a ‘Infotrack’ appear on AIS, was there during their training sessions

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Just read a few comments on the Rolex Facebook about it. The peanut gallery over there is quite entertaining! One woman wrote that it must be bullshit that they didn’t use ais, cause she had seen them on the tracker all the time and wondered if she should email a screenshot to the committee :D

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1 hour ago, lahana said:

Would like to see one of these on Infotrack...

And indeed the entire fleet. This witch hunt is truly fucking up the sport.

If the issue is across multiple yachts, how hard would it have been for the race commitee/CYCA to broadcast a 'reminder/hint' to the fleet, "Attention all Fuckers, attention all Fuckers... turn on you AIS now, or we will fuck you up/chuck you out in Hobart" 

This 'look the other way during the race' approach by race organizers is what is rotten here. A serious shortcoming. If AIS is all about safety, and the CYCA is all about safety (they very much are), they should have been far more proactive in communicating the AIS requirements to every boat. 

However... We were able to watch and track all boats, including Wild Oats, the entire race. So in the end... there clearly was a tracking element coming off all boats. Which leaves us where... Is AIS a 100% safety function? Or one used by competitors across the fleet to assist decision making and tactics? 

 

This shitfight is yet another sour end to a gripping, epic race. 

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Well, well, well, that was an interesting catch up. Kudos to the RC but in reality their hand was forced. Is Mr Vila still about?

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2 minutes ago, monosailor said:

There has been a ‘Infotrack’ appear on AIS, was there during their training sessions

Looks like that would probably be on MarineTraffic, which shows an MMSI of 503003480 for them.  That's the same MMSI that is listed for Perpetual Loyal on BigOceanData, so it's probably the same AIS unit.  

 

image.png.f224591d1f679b5beab852663b5f3f73.png

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1 minute ago, richiec said:

how hard would it have been for the race commitee/CYCA to broadcast a 'reminder/hint' to the fleet, "Attention all Fuckers,

You don't understand how this sport works.

Do some homework and get back to us.

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5 hours ago, The Main Man said:

Yes, he does come across as, how shall I put this, a total cockwomble.

This is an affront to cockwombles everywhere!:D

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Is it possible to leave the result in place but flick Mr Richards for bad sportsmanship or similar?

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2 minutes ago, paps49 said:

Is it possible to leave the result in place but flick Mr Richards for bad sportsmanship or similar?

No.  It's about the "yacht."

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3 minutes ago, PDG said:

...the fuck is a cockwomble? 

 

cockwomble (plural cockwombles) (Britain, slang, derogatory) A foolish or obnoxious person.

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2 minutes ago, Fast Laser said:
cockwomble (plural cockwombles) (Britain, slang, derogatory) A foolish or obnoxious person.

Thanks. I feel so provincial not knowing these things. 

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8 hours ago, us7070 said:

no - if we don't have to transmit our position to competitors.., we don't.

Oh I see. For tactics. Very competitive and sneaky. You dirty rats.

I guess that’s what WOXI was up to. MR doesn’t seem to deny doing it. I think the controversy is whether it’s agsinst the rules or not. (I wish not to bother reading them-  It’s a push to just get me to read my race  SI’s) 

Wouldn’t the trackers given the other boats knowledge of their position? 

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8 hours ago, PITA said:

But, anyhoo - I don't agree with it... but don't they allow them to go black in the VOR to gain tactical advantage?  Seem to remember that when I was following SCA.

That was blackout of position via the 6 hourly scheduled position reports and it only made sense to use it if boats where far enough apart to not be seen on boat-to-boat AIS.

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Why would you expect to find a race progress report in this thread? Don't you know where the tracker is? Or should I call it AIS, i'm a bit confused like Mark Richards....

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33 pages before the first sunfish report. Those guys are slipping. Wharro drops out and they lose the plot.

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12 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I see Grace O'Malley could upset Couta's 3rd overall. 

Will conditions allow them to speed up? Looking at the tracker, it looks like the boats ahead of GOM are tacking into the wind, so Voodoo is possibly safe?

Couta/Voodoo is safe. Grace O’Malley had dropped down the order on the latest standings. The wind is NW blowing 15-20 knots and gusty. It will be a long beat up from Cape Raoul for the boats out there ATM.

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4 hours ago, us7070 said:

the simple explanation is that it was turned off because someone didn't read the SI's carefully...

there is no rule 69 issue here - relax!

 

 

Race being decided by a protest two years in a row, with the same boat being stripped, may well bemuse the sponsor.

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4 hours ago, sledracr said:

Does that matter?  IF the rules say "must transmit", then... must transmit.  Whether they didn't transmit because of error or intent doesn't matter, either way they were not in compliance. 

Even moreso for "highly paid professionals".  they, above all, should be paying attention to the details of rules compliance. 

someone once told me "a professional is one who is committed to eliminating error and inefficiency in the pursuit of excellence - it has nothing to do with money".   I agree... even if accidental, this is a failure to *ensure* compliance.

 

It matters in the context of my post which was about them being called cheats.  

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15 minutes ago, hoppy said:

and a 2nd for Voodoo

I noticed that WOX is way down in 14th. I wonder what it is about ORCi that really hammers them compared to IRC.

That's fascinating. 11hrs difference corrected between her and her sister ship under orci vs an hour and change under IRC. Fucking bizzare.

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9 hours ago, TPG said:

Look at marine traffic during almost any race. Like clockwork you can see boats turn off AIS.

Difference here is that SIs require it to be on as transmitter and receiver for the duration of the race. First time for this requirement in a Hobart but its printed in the SIs plain as day.

other races don’t usually specify this requirement. 

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2 hours ago, random said:

Just saw the news and I am pleasantly surprised about the protest.

Sailing needs to be kept as clean as possible.  The job the PC has should be relatively simple but the pressure on all concerned is something no one needs.

For something like this to happen two years in a row, it indicates a culture common to bully boys used to having the best toy in the sandpit, unable to deal with competition and not expecting to be held to the same standards as the other kids, surprised and indignant when they are.

MR's behavior when they were penalised last year was disgraceful, this year to claim it was their 10th LH win was also disgraceful and would have no doubt pissed-off all concerned at the organising authority in Hobart.  Let's see what the stupid fuk says this time.

Would love to hear his response if asked why did he say it wasn’t mandatory in the hearing 

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28 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I wonder if Patriots rudder damage was sunfish related. Perhaps Sportscar can say if the know the cause.

Unknown cause at this stage. Assessor checking it out. Temporary rudder being installed today so Patriot can head up to Sydney for a new rudder to be fitted. Crew understandably very disappointed but in good spirits with several heading to Hobart by alternative transport.

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56 minutes ago, hoppy said:

 

 

Leave the S2H thread to those of us who are interested in the boats who are sailing still 

Nobody denies you to say something about other boats. Carry on. 

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

For fuck sake, I just woke up hoping to see some race progress reports here and all I find is this AIS shit including a few from clueless morons who clearly have no idea about how AIS works on a boat in the real world.

Thanks to Jack for the one update post about Scana's progress and to Mid for trying to get this boring WOIX AIS process and the basics of AIS discussions posted elsewhere.

Please fuck off to this thread 

L