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jabrams

Douses on a 105

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We are having debates on the douse. I prefer one bow and one sewer to bring the sail down (phrf spin). But some on the boat have read articles that talk about 2 on the bow and one sewer to drop it. I think this is a lot of forward weight and not sure it will increase the drop speed. What are others doing ? 

 

Thanks 

 

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1 hour ago, jabrams said:

We are having debates on the douse. I prefer one bow and one sewer to bring the sail down (phrf spin). But some on the boat have read articles that talk about 2 on the bow and one sewer to drop it. I think this is a lot of forward weight and not sure it will increase the drop speed. What are others doing ? 

3

Two on bow where the first guy jumps down the hatch with the chute and later checks that it's in order to be rehoisted. Second guy focus on tack and goes back to hike when ~30% of the kite is left and under control + help jib/genoa over the lifelines. 

Weight is not an issue vs a clean rounding and 100% hit-rate :)

Same on J/105, J109 and J/111.

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We use one bow and one sewer in under 25kts. Over 25kts it's really important not to fuck up and the boat is moving fast so getting the kite down the hole before the turn matters. In that case we have the trimmer go forward and help make sure the kite makes it down the hole while the foredeck guy makes sure that the foot/tack/pole stuff happens without having the sail ripped off the deck if we bury the bow in a wave.

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We had younger crew on our 109, so were whimps when it came to takedowns but used a retrevial line from the tack lead to the hatch.  Sewer (youngest daughter 9-12) pulled it down the hatch while bow (oldest son 12-15) made sure it went down the hole cleanly.  Only trick was to make sure you blew the sheet (cleanly) before releasing and running the tackline...

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I am guessing you sailed this weekend at NOODS.  While not a J105, on my M32 we use two on the bow and one squirrel.  Once it is mostly down, one or both on the bow go high while the squirrel finishes the douse and then hikes while the skinny bow girl, my wife, runs the tapes for the next set.

 

Which one were you on?

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We have 2 healthy and athletic girls on our bow.  Lucky us....

I might assist on a takedown over 20 kts. with a windward swipe due to pressure but soon as the foot is controlled we want rail meat. 

Never an issue with sorting out tapes.  Take it down correctly, it goes up correctly.

 

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We had one in the sewer, mast man on the bow and once the spin trimmer dropped the sheet, he would go up and help.

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little experience on a 105, but my gut says one on bow, one in the hole... it's such a small kite. Mast guy at the ready in case shit goes pair shaped. At worst, mast guy helps with the first part of the drop but quickly goes aft. 

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19 hours ago, Blur said:

Two on bow where the first guy jumps down the hatch with the chute and later checks that it's in order to be rehoisted. Second guy focus on tack and goes back to hike when ~30% of the kite is left and under control + help jib/genoa over the lifelines. 

Weight is not an issue vs a clean rounding and 100% hit-rate :)

Same on J/105, J109 and J/111.

I always prefer the sewer gets on deck and hikes for a bit before going back to run tapes. At best, it gets them on the rail at a critical part of the race and if it was a perfectly clean drop they can stay there. At worst, they might have to work a little faster (wait, that still sounds like a win....) and if we're getting close to the top mark i can bang on the hull to let them know we're close - scaring the shit out of them just like all those other asshole bowmen did to me....

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Thank you all for the advice. We have been running the tapes more since we seem to have an issue with the drop. On windward drops we get the spin in but often with the next hoist the spin comes up and the sheets are now set for an outside gybe. Not sure how but some way we keep seeming to get the tack line under the sheet. To me I have a hard time understanding how if we never disconnect the lines why this would change. What are your thoughts with this ? 

 

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1 hour ago, jabrams said:

Thank you all for the advice. We have been running the tapes more since we seem to have an issue with the drop. On windward drops we get the spin in but often with the next hoist the spin comes up and the sheets are now set for an outside gybe. Not sure how but some way we keep seeming to get the tack line under the sheet. To me I have a hard time understanding how if we never disconnect the lines why this would change. What are your thoughts with this ? 

 

That takes talent...

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1 hour ago, M32USA123 said:

We ran the tapes twice during 5 races, so 10 take downs. Those two were ugly Mexicans, so I wanted to be sure. 

One of the Mexicans must have been the one caught on the video.

 

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2 hours ago, M32USA123 said:

We ran the tapes twice during 5 races, so 10 take downs. Those two were ugly Mexicans, so I wanted to be sure. 

Trumps wall will take care of that.

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I will guarantee that a clean douse results in a clean hoist.  Good bowman and middle crew recognize visually when shit is not in order and we are very particular.

Weight around the corners whether it needs to be hiking or to leeward will gain you more than the weight lost forward and moving around looking at tapes.  A huge help is also not to let any of the sheet get down the sewer.  Keeping the corners out and not buried down below can be sorted out quickly for some bow but they need some patience and skill while hoisting. 

Also, think about using a retrieval line.  We have one, it is super quick as long as the bowman knows how they like it set up without causing fuckups.  Extra line sometimes throw's people off but we race with the same crew.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, jabrams said:

Thank you all for the advice. We have been running the tapes more since we seem to have an issue with the drop. On windward drops we get the spin in but often with the next hoist the spin comes up and the sheets are now set for an outside gybe. Not sure how but some way we keep seeming to get the tack line under the sheet. To me I have a hard time understanding how if we never disconnect the lines why this would change. What are your thoughts with this ? 

 

that's.... impressive... are you sure nothing was disconnected?... A simple twist will be avoided on the set if you just spread the clews (ok tack and clew) . I've watched perfectly packed kites go up twisted because the trimmer was too afraid to pull the sheet back. But to invert from inside to outside - i can't picture it lol. Not even taking the halyard off? 

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10 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

that's.... impressive... are you sure nothing was disconnected?... A simple twist will be avoided on the set if you just spread the clews (ok tack and clew) . I've watched perfectly packed kites go up twisted because the trimmer was too afraid to pull the sheet back. But to invert from inside to outside - i can't picture it lol. Not even taking the halyard off? 

If your trimmer sheets in on an assym in heavy air your mast man will kill him!  Have to wait until it is made.  You can prefeed the tack and somewhat on the sheet, but do not strap it unless you want to start a fight.

 

How you get the sheets outside on a douse is beyond me. Unless they are blowing the tack and somehow taking it under the sheets.

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Do the retrieval lines off the tack make things any easier?  I've never tried it but seems to make sense in theory.  Still work in big breeze?  Typically how long does it need to be and how does the line not end up dragging in the water & under the boat or tangled around something it's not supposed to?

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2 hours ago, Hugh Jorgan said:

Do the retrieval lines off the tack make things any easier?  I've never tried it but seems to make sense in theory.  Still work in big breeze?  Typically how long does it need to be and how does the line not end up dragging in the water & under the boat or tangled around something it's not supposed to?

They work well in a blow but the problem is that the tack always ends up under the kite making the next hoist really require a full running the the tapes.  much easier, if the wind and skipper allows, to windward strip and end up with a cleaner chute in the forepeak ready to hoist.

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18 hours ago, Hugh Jorgan said:

Do the retrieval lines off the tack make things any easier?  I've never tried it but seems to make sense in theory.  Still work in big breeze?  Typically how long does it need to be and how does the line not end up dragging in the water & under the boat or tangled around something it's not supposed to?

Just run it like you do the tackline.  That way it is set up with no fouls around any sheets.   I am a proponent of controlling the foot, so blow tack line first and ease sheets immediately then go for the halyard.  I retrieval line makes blowing the tackline possible without a hand on the foot of the spinnaker.  Keeping it strapped to the boat helps with this but there never becomes an issue with controlling the takedown.  Like anything you have to be careful of the end knot you have tied because a bulky bowline can foul on the bow bulpit sometimes if there is pressure and sucking it to the hardware making it difficult to get over and around it.  
A good bowman will not shove the head down below making the next hoist a bit difficult.

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1 minute ago, proOC said:

12 ft maybe in length,...not sure never really looked at it.  I will let you know...

 

When we had one on the Henderson and the Farr 395 we got an extra long sail tie to use for the retrieval line.  Worked really well.

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22 hours ago, M32USA123 said:

If your trimmer sheets in on an assym in heavy air your mast man will kill him!  Have to wait until it is made.  You can prefeed the tack and somewhat on the sheet, but do not strap it unless you want to start a fight.

 

How you get the sheets outside on a douse is beyond me. Unless they are blowing the tack and somehow taking it under the sheets.

Spread then ease. Don't hold it in tight. Been doing this for a long time. If you never bring the clew back, you're greatly increase the likelihood of a twist or three. 

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When you do a take down, the kite should go down the hatch clew first, foot second, tack third, belly forth and head last. I am not a big fan of take down lines attached to the tack. When you use one, it means the tack goes down the hatch first instead of the clew. 

You should never ever disconnect any of the lines. I have done foredeck on 105s for over 10 years and my only standing order to the pit/sewer is never disconnect any of the lines. Only bad things can happen. The worst case scenario is a sheet wrapped around the kite. If your sewer crew is not back on the rail within 10 seconds of the head going down the hatch it means they're down there overthinking things. Not good.

Another suggestion I would make is pulling some extra starboard/lazy sheet down the hatch. This ensures the lazy sheet is not tight during the next set. If you get to the top mark and the lazy sheet looks tight, just pull some slack out from the windward rail.

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RATM likes the clew first, which I agree with but we prefer to keep the corners, especially the clew on deck or control the clew first, then stuff the foot in the hatch and continue until the head of the spin is below the spreaders and all stuffed away down below.

We always have the trimmer, if it is a bear away starboard set keep their eye on the windward lazy sheet so it's not bound up and tight during the set.  This is an ongoing problem with many other boats that I see.  Especially on asym boats.  Our owner wants to go through 20 sets this spring just practicing have that damn sheet eased so the kite goes up but more so the foot can be eased and trimmed after the set.  Nothing worse than that sheet being taught, then the trimmer trying to roll the headsail and it fouling around the drum due to it being strapped.  It effects the initial trim and also the furl....practice this and make it a standard task for that initial trimmer.  They have nothing to do until that chute is flying and it will make their job so much easier.

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4 hours ago, proOC said:

RATM likes the clew first, which I agree with but we prefer to keep the corners, especially the clew on deck or control the clew first, then stuff the foot in the hatch and continue until the head of the spin is below the spreaders and all stuffed away down below.

We always have the trimmer, if it is a bear away starboard set keep their eye on the windward lazy sheet so it's not bound up and tight during the set.  This is an ongoing problem with many other boats that I see.  Especially on asym boats.  Our owner wants to go through 20 sets this spring just practicing have that damn sheet eased so the kite goes up but more so the foot can be eased and trimmed after the set.  Nothing worse than that sheet being taught, then the trimmer trying to roll the headsail and it fouling around the drum due to it being strapped.  It effects the initial trim and also the furl....practice this and make it a standard task for that initial trimmer.  They have nothing to do until that chute is flying and it will make their job so much easier.

One of the hardest things to do in sailing (let alone regular life) is break bad habits. Sailed with a person who despite having not sailed on a sym boat in 5+ years still like to put both sheets on the cabin top winches and likes to pull the slack out while heading to a windward mark. This despite the starboard winch being needed to tail the halyard with.

Good times

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The other thing to consider is how many douses your crew can do. We generally prefer a weather strip, but if we're coming into the mark on starboard and there's room below, we're OK with a leeward "stretch and blow" strip - but we have to sail pretty deep if it's windy and sometimes a guy to port won't let that happen. We also practice mexicans, but we don't use them much, and we have a call for "Rio Grande" (half way to mexico) which starts off as a leeward douse, but warns the crew that we will jibe early at the gate before the kite is down the hole.

If we end up with the gear on the wrong side because we decided to do a safe (and faster) weather strip for some reason, then the choices are to re-string the gear, sambuca or a jibe set at the top. Generally in lighter air (<15kts) we'll pick the sambuca - but that's pretty infrequent because the chances of having the gear on the wrong side in light air is low.  Jibe sets are not my favorite, but that's the best option, particularly if we're in a pack, want the left downwind and we're sure that we can be on the inside at the mark. We may restring the kite if we're on a long beat to a mark where we need the right for ebb relief or something like that (Presidio Shoals, Blackaller), although usually the wind is light enough there to sambuca.

 

 

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Mexicans are by far the easiest douse on a 105, we try to use them whenever possible.

 

For Mexicans, we pull the jib out on the "wrong" side and dump the kite right into it, ezpz. One guy up front, kite trimmer moves to leeward shrouds before douse. When sail starts to come over, halyard and tack are blown. Trimmer keeps leech of kite forward of the rig / assists and then starts hiking once things are under control.

Leeward: Trimmer grinds sheet in until bow can grab foot under jib, then moves to leeward shrouds. On call, big burp of the halyard and foredeck takes the midfoot down the hatch while trimmer guides the sail on to the deck. Once it looks like everything is under control, trimmer hikes.

Windward: Trimmer hands off working sheet to pit and tensions lazy sheet. On call, trimmer grinds the windward sheet over as foredeck muscles the clew around. When the clew gets to the forestay, pole blown. Foredeck takes the clew right down the hatch while the trimmer gathers the sail on deck Once it looks like everything is under control, trimmer hikes.

The quicker you do a douse, the less chance there is to fuck everything up.

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Mexicans are very useful if you arrive on starboard in between well separated gates because of traffic and you make a late decision on which way to go, and decide to go left. Otherwise, we generally find that we're too close to the gate to do a Mexican and have confidence that we can get the sail down the hole before the turn up wind. Hence the Rio Grande douse - starts as a leeward and finishes as a Mexican.

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The best thing about a Mexican douse is you can basically just fire everything but the sheet and it just comes down. Inside on starboard is a big passing lane for us.

I'd like to repeat something I mentioned again that I don't see most other boats doing - blow the pole early in the douse, it really unloads the sail, makes everything else a lot easier.

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On 28 February 2018 at 3:26 AM, Wet Spreaders said:

The other thing to consider is how many douses your crew can do. We generally prefer a weather strip, but if we're coming into the mark on starboard and there's room below, we're OK with a leeward "stretch and blow" strip - but we have to sail pretty deep if it's windy and sometimes a guy to port won't let that happen. We also practice mexicans, but we don't use them much, and we have a call for "Rio Grande" (half way to mexico) which starts off as a leeward douse, but warns the crew that we will jibe early at the gate before the kite is down the hole.

If we end up with the gear on the wrong side because we decided to do a safe (and faster) weather strip for some reason, then the choices are to re-string the gear, sambuca or a jibe set at the top. Generally in lighter air (<15kts) we'll pick the sambuca - but that's pretty infrequent because the chances of having the gear on the wrong side in light air is low.  Jibe sets are not my favorite, but that's the best option, particularly if we're in a pack, want the left downwind and we're sure that we can be on the inside at the mark. We may restring the kite if we're on a long beat to a mark where we need the right for ebb relief or something like that (Presidio Shoals, Blackaller), although usually the wind is light enough there to sambuca.

 

 

Sambuca?

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Mexican's are invaluable takedown.  Easily done as long as everyone has their positioning right. 

I do like the idea of blowing the pole to decompress the kite,  it does release the tack load and line but more line oftens needs to be released due to tackline not coming all the way back to the hatch. 

On a J70 they were always prescribing blowing the pole for a takedown, the only problem being that by blowing the pole the chute doesn't come aft enough and in a breeze, be careful!

 

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On 2/27/2018 at 11:26 AM, Wet Spreaders said:

The other thing to consider is how many douses your crew can do. ....

Having all the possible sets and douses in your "clip" is very important. There are lots of scenarios that can happen especially when you throw leeward gates into the mix. We trim our jib sheets to the cabin top winches but when we're coming into a leeward mark or gate, we use the primaries for the simple reason that this gives us the most options.

Our "cheat" that we like to do on Mexicans is pull out the sheet to starboard which is to say wrong side. Another poster mentioned the same thing. The jib acts as your backstop.

A Sambuca is the name of a spinnaker set that is a variant of a gybe set.

The traditional gybe set involves gybeing at the mark and setting the kite to starboard. Your willingness to sneak the kite out as you approach the windward mark is up to you. In the days when you could put wool stops on a kite, you could basically pull the tack all the way out and hoist all the way to the top and pull on the sheet as you gybe. It's a pretty sexy move.

A Sambuca is a gybe set even with the kite set for a bear away. You do not re-rig. As you approach the windward mark, you prefeed the tack as usual but you also start pulling the clew to starboard. At the same time you're pulling the clew to starboard you pull a ton of slack out out of the port spin sheet.

At the mark, you leave the jib sheeted to port, you may burp it a little to help bear away but 6" max. The jib will act as your backstop. As the boat gybes, you hoist the kite and sheet it to starboard. Once you're on port gybe and the kite is all the way up and around the front of the forestay, you can furl the jib. Also a very sexy move

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We use the term "Sambuca" to essentially mean "weather set" - basically a bear-away set with the gear on the weather side at the top mark. On the reach to the offset, you cheat the tack forward as usual to the end of the pole, then you haul the clew around the forestay so that it won't hang up - get past the stiff bit. Then, at the mark you hoist as usual, and sheet in. It works OK for lighter air - up to about 15 kts. The problem at higher wind speeds is you have a lot of cloth on deck on the reach and it's too easy to lose control of it and end up having it blown into the water. 

When it's really howling - > 25kts or so - we won't pull the sail out of the hole until the turn. This delays the hoist, but is a lot safer. I suppose we could do a Sambuca that way also in >15kts, but we have never tried it. 

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We pretty much unfurl our jib to starboard no matter the drop.  Gets the jib off the foredeck port side where the chute is coming down and gathers.  Never a need to douse with the spin coming under the jib and sheets.  On a 105 not very much room for leeward drops.  Good timing and fast hands make it easier.

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4 hours ago, Wet Spreaders said:

We use the term "Sambuca" to essentially mean "weather set" - basically a bear-away set with the gear on the weather side at the top mark. On the reach to the offset, you cheat the tack forward as usual to the end of the pole, then you haul the clew around the forestay so that it won't hang up - get past the stiff bit. Then, at the mark you hoist as usual, and sheet in. It works OK for lighter air - up to about 15 kts. The problem at higher wind speeds is you have a lot of cloth on deck on the reach and it's too easy to lose control of it and end up having it blown into the water. 

When it's really howling - > 25kts or so - we won't pull the sail out of the hole until the turn. This delays the hoist, but is a lot safer. I suppose we could do a Sambuca that way also in >15kts, but we have never tried it. 

Thanks, I had never heard the term before

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