Derek up North

I just bought a 'Mystery Dingy'! What is it?

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I just joined the Forum in the hopes that someone will recognize this dinghy make/model. There doesn't appear to be a HIN on the transom.

It appears to be a racy little thing being equipped with roller furling jib and a spinnaker. :)

Not so racy is the is the hole in the hull, 2-piece rudder and missing rotating mast step. :(

It's still on the roof of the SUV, but rough dimensions are:-

Length: ~12'+

Beam: ~54"

Mast: 16'-2" (494cm)

Boom: 7'-10' (240cm)

Attached are the best pictures I've got. Hopefully someone will recognize the sail marking?

323 s.jpg

Bow s.jpg

Stern s.jpg

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It looks quite a bit like a Sidewinder, especially since you mention a roller-furling jib.  However, I don't think it is one.  A Google image search shows that the Sidewinder has a splash guard while this one has a completely flat deck.

Wrong sail logo, too. And I don't think the Sidewinder had a spinnarker.

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Two thoughts ...

Might be a questionable copy of another design - hence the "less than or equal to" sail emblem. 

Doug Lord seems to like "Arrow" symbols on his foiling bathroom tub toys - maybe in the deep past he built a dinghy sized boat.

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Thanks for the replies. I, of course, did an immediate search for the Sidewinder. It does look similar in the low res photo/brochure. Unfortunately it's about 3' longer.

Now that I've unloaded it from the roof (solo), I've tried to get more accurate dimensions:- Length:12'-3" Beam: 4'-8".

I'm not sure calling your boat "less than or equal' would be a great marketing strategy. :)

I'll try to attach a centerboard photo to this post. :)

BTW, I know it needs a 'little love', but it was only $100. The whole boat, not just the centerboard. :)

Centerboard s.jpg

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It has a jib-

There was a fairly radical little boat very much like this back in the late 60’s early 70’s called the Arrow (I think) that was a one man 2 sail dinghy that planed like crazy.  It used to show up in Sail Magazine’s sailboat guide.  Might have the name wrong, but the hull is tickling my brain.  Alan Crawford seems like he might  know?

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Derek up North - by North do you mean Canada? This is an Arrow -  built for a few years by Sawyer Sailboats. There was a boat called a Sesame manufactured by Seahorse Sailboats in California (see link below and scroll down to entries 12 - 15). In the 70s,  Sawyer brought one to Canada, shamelessly copied it and sold it as the Arrow. They then "designed" a bloated version of it and called it a Crossbow - a 15' version of essentially the same boat.

http://sailingforums.com/threads/is-this-a-laser.36371/

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I did some more scrubbing of the hull. All across the transom, up the sides, around the bow and inside the cockpit. Still no sign of a HIN. :(

Roller furler has 'Colt Developments Ltd, Hamilton' molded on it. A quick Google didn't turn up much.

I bought the boat with an 'extra sail'. I had to assumed it was a spinnaker because the sail bag it was in was a big frozen block of ice. Well, it's thawed out enough to get the 'sail' out of the bag and unroll it a bit. It still looks like a spinnaker AND it has the same '<=' insignia as the main sail.

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Thanks to all for the replies. As I was typing my last post, more messages kept arriving!

Yes, 'up North' is in the GWN. North of Montreal. Bought it from a guy near Brockville who knew nothing about it. He said he bought it from an 'old guy' who said he used to race it. Tried it once and left it upside down next to the barn for 10 year. Glad (so far) I rescued it or it would likely have ended up on a bonfire. :)

Now I'm off to Google Arrows and Sesames. :)

 

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8 minutes ago, Derek up North said:

I did some more scrubbing of the hull. All across the transom, up the sides, around the bow and inside the cockpit. Still no sign of a HIN. :(

Roller furler has 'Colt Developments Ltd, Hamilton' molded on it. A quick Google didn't turn up much.

I bought the boat with an 'extra sail'. I had to assumed it was a spinnaker because the sail bag it was in was a big frozen block of ice. Well, it's thawed out enough to get the 'sail' out of the bag and unroll it a bit. It still looks like a spinnaker AND it has the same '<=' insignia as the main sail.

Thought I saw a couple suspicious spinnaker sheet fairleads on the stern.  I think I saw one of these at either Fanshaw or Conestoga thirty years ago.  Southern Ontario counterfeiter boats - it should attract Trumpian attention.  An Ajax junk/flea market seller mall made the Nafta negotiations complaints documentation from our neighbours to the south.

Looks like it may be cheap fun.

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Well, that's certainly a quicker ID than I was expecting or hoping for. But I knew that going to a Forum was my best bet!

Single handing with 3 sails? Designed for an octopus? :) I bought this with 2 sails (not knowing about the spinnaker) to use to teach the grandkids to sail. I suspect it'll do just fine! Once I patch a hole in the hull, several in the sails and figure out how to step the mast.

The mast step appears to be a rotating type. 10 years sitting next to the barn and the part that attaches to the deck with 2 screws has disappeared. If anyone has any ideas on how I could improvise something,  I'd appreciate suggestions/photos/sketches. I'll attach a picture of what's on the mast. Don't see any manufacturer markings. Do you suppose it was a metal on metal design (I doubt it) or perhaps plastic? I obviously have zero knowledge of rotation mast steps, but I'm a retired mechanical engineer. Some might consider that a help, others a hindrance! :)

Mast base.jpg

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Many rotating mast steps are nothing more than a delrin ball on the end of a piece of thereaded rod, see https://www.murrays.com/product/01-8002/

or google "catamaran mast step" and look at images.  I might approach this by setting up the mast on some wood blocks to figure out how tall the mast step assembly should be so as to put the shrouds and headstay all in the middle of their adjustment range.  After that weld a stainless nut to a plate, get a piece of stainless threaded rod and the ball and away you go.

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11 hours ago, bistros said:

Two thoughts ...

Might be a questionable copy of another design - hence the "less than or equal to" sail emblem. 

Doug Lord seems to like "Arrow" symbols on his foiling bathroom tub toys - maybe in the deep past he built a dinghy sized boat.

The reference below to a larger version "Crossbow" seems to bear this out. Maybe check for movable ballast fittings? (chortle)

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I'm not seeing the Laser-2 similarity- The hull shape at the transom is quite different and the L2 has a big glass daggerboard and a small rudder that looks similar to that of a L1.

 There were some later variations on the L2 ("fun", "regatta" and the 3000, with an asymmetric) but they were no closer.

 Interesting that the sail number is relatively high. That suggest that quite a few were built, unless they started at 300 for marketing reasons!

Cheers,

                W.

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Well, it's not a Laser 2. It's about 2' too short. And nowhere near as heavy or I'd never have got it off the roof solo. I'm not sure if it's a light as the 90lb in the Sesame specs. I'll try to figure out some way to try to weigh it.

The sail bag that contained the spinnaker has stenciled on it "Mainsail Jib" & "323". Both the bag and spinnaker are from 'Taylor Sails' (like the sail on the Sesame in the other thread).

At least it's made it 'on the water'. Still months away from being 'in the water'! :)

BTW, the spinnaker is HUGE. Hats off to anyone able to sail this thing solo!!

1 On the water s.jpg

1 Sail bag 1 s.jpg

1 Sail bag 2 s.jpg

1 Spinnaker s.jpg

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22 hours ago, Amati said:

It has a jib-

There was a fairly radical little boat very much like this back in the late 60’s early 70’s called the Arrow (I think) that was a one man 2 sail dinghy that planed like crazy.  It used to show up in Sail Magazine’s sailboat guide.  Might have the name wrong, but the hull is tickling my brain.  Alan Crawford seems like he might  know?

No clue! The hull looks pretty nice.

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5 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

I'm not seeing the Laser-2 similarity- The hull shape at the transom is quite different and the L2 has a big glass daggerboard and a small rudder that looks similar to that of a L1.

 There were some later variations on the L2 ("fun", "regatta" and the 3000, with an asymmetric) but they were no closer.

 Interesting that the sail number is relatively high. That suggest that quite a few were built, unless they started at 300 for marketing reasons!

Cheers,

                W.

Mystery is gone. See Post 8. It is an Arrow. Guaranteed. They were built here and at one time there used to be a couple dozen or so in our boat park (barely sailed and never raced). The spinnaker was an "add-on" by the local builder, and was not a good idea. This particular builder had a number of bad ideas...  

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So far, I've found no reason to believe that it's not an Arrow. Of course since there's nothing(?) on the net about them (other than this Forum), it's unlikely anything will turn up. I'll try to post better photos and maybe dimensions in case someone else turns up one.

Bill, which part of the country was this 'fleet'? Were these built in Calgary?

I'm guessing mine wasn't sailed much (or ever) with the spinnaker. The one I've got is mint condition. I think it'll remain a 'collector's item'/'conversation piece'. If I went to bars, I suspect I might be able to win a few 'bar bets'. I might well offer it up to any younger, more agile dinghy sailors want to give it a try sailing with the full wardrobe. It would be nice to get a picture or two.

From my internet searches, it appears 'Tom Taylor Sails' are long gone. I wonder if their files/patterns for the sails were scooped up by someone in case I ever wanted to buy new ones. For now, I'll be trying 'sail repair tape' for the first time ever.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what a 68 sq ft main would cost? Probably more than the original purchase price! :(

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Yup - Calgary. There was a weird connection between Calgary and the designer of the Sesame - a guy called Allan Arnold out of California. He also designed a nice 15' cat called the Seaspray which had a great run here - 30 boats on the start line at local events. I remember 60 of them at the North Americans in the early 70's. A local builder did very well with this boat (different builder than the Arrow...). Ultimately,  there were  a few thousand Seasprays built and sold in the US and Canada, and there are still a few kicking around. (Rotating mast? very catamaran - I guess Mr. Arnold thought he should just duplicate for the Sesame.)   And Arnold probably should have stopped there. The Sesame failed. He also designed a 12' cat called the Kimba Kat. One showed up at the lake when I was about 12 - I took it out in 10 - 15 knots and bent the front beam which supported the mast. I guess my 75 pounds of skin and bone was just too powerful. Anyway, a quick Google shows the Kimba Kat was made available as a kit - advertised in Popular Mechanics for $445. That was in 1971...

OK, so after that massive and unnecessary digression, your two grandkids should have some fun learning to sail. However,  I do recommend you lower your expectations in terms of performance. They didn't catch on for a reason.

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Thanks for the background.

Since my last post, I took a shot in the dark and checked the North Sales website. Imagine my surprise that they gave an email address for a staff member claimed to be their 'Arrow Expert'! I've sent an email.

I'm not expecting miracles in terms of performance. The competition on my lake for the Sunday Races is a fleet of aging Sunfish. I expect to be disqualified if I show up with the Arrow, especially if I manage to raise the spinnaker! They were already upset when I showed up with a Banshee! :)

 

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About the same sail area and attractively priced but wouldn't work with my current mast and boom.

For the initial 'sea trials', I'm just going to patch what I've got with some Sail Patch Tape I just bought. I hope it works because it cost me about 25% of my initial purchase price! :)

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Well, the 'community' so far seems to be 2 of us in the Montreal area. I guess the Quebec fleet is 2x bigger than I expected it to be! :)

I'll have to organize a local Regatta. I'll be guaranteed at least a Silver medal!

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On 3/3/2018 at 7:53 AM, Derek up North said:

Thanks. That was great.

A few observations:

- Looks a bit cramped in the cockpit with 2 adults;

- no sign of a spinnaker being used;

- sideburns optional? :)

Chops, man! Ya gotta grow some muttonchops. Electric guitar optional.....

That thing is planing like a mo'fo too. Looks FUN! It really took off when the jib was sheeted.... I think some improvements in rigging should be possible, make it a little easier to handle.

FB- Doug

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Rigging improvements can come later. First on the list is figuring out how to step the mast! I think I've figured out a way to cobble up something to replace the missing part that's deck mounted. A 'fancier' version might (or might not) be made at a later date in polished stainless! My only clues to exactly where the mast should be located are 2 holes in the deck and the silhouette of where a rectangular plate used to be. I suppose I'll just assume the mast should pivot half way between the holes. Realistically, I doubt it will make much difference if it's an inch too far forward or aft! I hate assuming but it's unlikely I'll be able to see and measure an original! :)

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34 minutes ago, Derek up North said:

Rigging improvements can come later. First on the list is figuring out how to step the mast! I think I've figured out a way to cobble up something to replace the missing part that's deck mounted. A 'fancier' version might (or might not) be made at a later date in polished stainless! My only clues to exactly where the mast should be located are 2 holes in the deck and the silhouette of where a rectangular plate used to be. I suppose I'll just assume the mast should pivot half way between the holes. Realistically, I doubt it will make much difference if it's an inch too far forward or aft! I hate assuming but it's unlikely I'll be able to see and measure an original! :)

Sounds like a good plan.

I bet the boat will sail 90% as well without the mast rotating, but of course it will work even better with. And it's not that difficult to make, I've used hard plastic cutting board material for similar "loaded but rotating" parts. The keys to success in this are 1- good structure under the mast step..... is there any access under there? and 2- getting the fore-n-aft placement of the step close enough to "right" that you can adjust the rig balance with a little rake. Then of course you need to be able to adjust the rake.......

It's amazing, looking back on some of these old boats, just how primitive and difficult the rigging was. I remember sailing with "hi tech" Dacron sails and thinking they were noisy and unpleasant, and thinking nothing about 3-strand halyards that had to be retensioned for every windward leg and phenolic cam cleats that you had to use your thumb to jam & un-jam them. That's why every Baby Boomer sailor LOVES-LOVES-LOVES Harken and Ronstan, before they came along we didn't realize how much we'd suffered!

FB- Doug

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Attached is what I have of the rotating system. There's an area of the 'socket' that appears to be worn from contact with what I'm missing. About 1/2" (diameter of a AA battery). I'm thinking that at least initially metal/metal contact will work OK.

Wandering the aisles of the hardware store, I see 3 items that could work:-

An acorn/cap nut;

61kr0rJd1rL._SL1500_.jpg

the head of a carriage bolt;

BC8x25SS%20Metric%20Carriage%20Bolt%20St

or a ball stud.

Ball-Stud-SPECview-Thread.gif

Combine one of these with a short length of threaded rod and maybe several threaded rod coupler nuts:

hex-coupling-threaded-rod-nut-stainless-

Several of these welded in a row on a base plate would allow me to move the mast back and forth in increments. If I'm going to pay someone to do the welding, I might as well have several welded at the same time. :)

1 Mast base s.jpg

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BTW, the 'missing' piece left a silhouette on my deck 4"x1.5" held in place by 2-#8NC screws, so apparently not too heavily loaded. No access to the underside though I'd obviously prefer to install a 4" inspection hatch to through bolt it! Or maybe even 6" to allow me to do a repair to the fiberglass from the inside at the same time! :)

 

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3 hours ago, Derek up North said:

Attached is what I have of the rotating system. There's an area of the 'socket' that appears to be worn from contact with what I'm missing. About 1/2" (diameter of a AA battery). I'm thinking that at least initially metal/metal contact will work OK.

Wandering the aisles of the hardware store, I see 3 items that could work:-

An acorn/cap nut;

61kr0rJd1rL._SL1500_.jpg

the head of a carriage bolt;

BC8x25SS%20Metric%20Carriage%20Bolt%20St

or a ball stud.

Ball-Stud-SPECview-Thread.gif

Combine one of these with a short length of threaded rod and maybe several threaded rod coupler nuts:

hex-coupling-threaded-rod-nut-stainless-

Several of these welded in a row on a base plate would allow me to move the mast back and forth in increments. If I'm going to pay someone to do the welding, I might as well have several welded at the same time. :)

1 Mast base s.jpg

Err-hmmm-mm ....... don't go metal-to-metal, even temporarily. It may work fine but it may also gall the mast step and you don't want to have to make a new one of those too. Get some thin teflon sheet and set it in there as you step the mast, let it deform to shape as needed. Then refine as you work on the Mk II version!

Just my 2c

FB- Doug

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Don't worry. At worst, it would see 15 minutes service (with some grease). I'll see if I can figure out how to incorporate an ABEC5 bearing from a Rollerblade wheel. :)

Oh for a fully equipped machine shop. With a 3-D printer! :)

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I would consider cutting the bottom of the mast off and getting a traditional mast plug/step that fits. The rotating mast isn't necessary. Trick is finding a plug that fits, and hoping you don't have much to cut off the bottom. But I think tried and true off-the-shelf will be easier for you. Machine shops, 3D printers etc sound a bit over the top. 

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Oops. Hang on. I just looked at the photos. Just drill out the rivets and replace the mast plug with a regular one, and screw a regular mast step into the deck. 

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I would tend to avoid jimmy-rigging with hardware built for fences. Reinventing what was a questionable thought in the first place (rotating mast) and using household builder materials could wind up being a disaster - if that mast leaves the mast step while underway, it is likely going to go through the deck. I'll stick with my suggestion above. A heel/plug combo for a 420 is less than $100. The only small production dinghy I can thing of that features a rotating stayed rig is a Tasar. Any other small, successful dinghy will have a more conventional approach. Erring on the side of caution might be advisable.

Respectfully, there wasn't a lot "right" with this boat, and replacing bits from successful classes would not be the worst thing you could do. A FrankenArrow might be the way to go. 

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21 minutes ago, bill4 said:

I would tend to avoid jimmy-rigging with hardware built for fences. Reinventing what was a questionable thought in the first place (rotating mast) and using household builder materials could wind up being a disaster - if that mast leaves the mast step while underway, it is likely going to go through the deck. I'll stick with my suggestion above. A heel/plug combo for a 420 is less than $100. The only small production dinghy I can thing of that features a rotating stayed rig is a Tasar. Any other small, successful dinghy will have a more conventional approach. Erring on the side of caution might be advisable.

Respectfully, there wasn't a lot "right" with this boat, and replacing bits from successful classes would not be the worst thing you could do. A FrankenArrow might be the way to go. 

In one way, I agree.... replacing the mast step with a known functional (especially a hinge-up/down tabernacle) would be very tempting. OTOH it's supposed to be a fast little boat and the rotating mast is a performance feature. And the loads are really low. How much pressure is that nylon acorn nut built to take? I bet more than however much compression you're going to see in that rig, even in impulse loads in chop. Righting from a capsize will be about the biggest stress on it.

OTOH a mast that is easy to pin, push up into place, and rig; will be a big plus in making this boat less PITA to get ready fro sailing. I always hated the rigamarole of dealing the rotating masts in catamarans. I'm an impatient person, I guess.

FB- Doug

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Maybe you could cast a lump of epoxy on a block of hardwood, filled with glass fibers, cabosil and graphite powder to make a step/bearing?  Cast it inside the mast base, not sure how you keep it from sticking though. If it doesn't rotate freely you have a dead cheap temporary step. Need to put rig up with foot resting on a pad of wood first and progressively shim it higher so you know how much overall height you need to get rig tension.

edit- probably easier to pull the mast base off the tube to do it

 

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3 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

In one way, I agree.... replacing the mast step with a known functional (especially a hinge-up/down tabernacle) would be very tempting. OTOH it's supposed to be a fast little boat and the rotating mast is a performance feature. And the loads are really low. How much pressure is that nylon acorn nut built to take? I bet more than however much compression you're going to see in that rig, even in impulse loads in chop. Righting from a capsize will be about the biggest stress on it.

OTOH a mast that is easy to pin, push up into place, and rig; will be a big plus in making this boat less PITA to get ready fro sailing. I always hated the rigamarole of dealing the rotating masts in catamarans. I'm an impatient person, I guess.

FB- Doug

If the rotating rig is a must, I suggest a call to West Coast Sailing and see if the Tasar Mast Step Plate will fit. https://www.westcoastsailing.net/default/tsr707.html 

Concerning the "fast little boat", the US Portsmouth for the Sesame when it was still "active" was 114. Not sure how much of that is owed to the rotating rig.

;)

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2 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

Maybe you could cast a lump of epoxy on a block of hardwood, filled with glass fibers, cabosil and graphite powder to make a step/bearing?  Cast it inside the mast base, not sure how you keep it from sticking though. If it doesn't rotate freely you have a dead cheap temporary step. Need to put rig up with foot resting on a pad of wood first and progressively shim it higher so you know how much overall height you need to get rig tension.

edit- probably easier to pull the mast base off the tube to do it

 

 

With enough filler fibers, it could hold up. Seperating the parts is easy, use a sheet of PVC film. Yes it will leave some wrinkles but you can smooth it after hardening.

4 minutes ago, bill4 said:

If the rotating rig is a must, I suggest a call to West Coast Sailing and see if the Tasar Mast Step Plate will fit. https://www.westcoastsailing.net/default/tsr707.html 

Concerning the "fast little boat", the US Portsmouth for the Sesame when it was still "active" was 114. Not sure how much of that is owed to the rotating rig.

;)

Might fit, dunno if Derek-U-N wants to spend the money.

Good point about the Portsmouth rating. But that might be because they suck in light air, or because they're only 12' LOA, or because they didn't race much. Thing looked pretty flighty in the video.... shucks the AMF Puffer is 110~112

FB- Doug

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The objective is to get it floating and sailing as cheaply as possible. Upgrades/improvements can come later.

Though I'm trying to use and adapt 'stuff' from the hardware store, I suspect it'll stand up to 'prototyping use.

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I just meant fit generally within the concave area. Some sort of common semi-resilient cone/disc/donut that would locate the mast foot (but not enable rotation). Rollerblade wheel or something, screw it to a piece of wood and screw wood to deck. 1 3/8 is a pretty small dish there I guess. 

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Most rotating mast steps really only contact the top of the ball, but they are the male shape of the mast butt. 

Tasar is a good start, but also check scows (M16 butterfly) have deck stepped rotation masts. Butterfly is in the same size range so it might be a good fit. There are lots around to pick and pull. Barrnett boats may also have them for sale. Probably cheaper than Tasar. 

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10 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

Will a hockey puck sit inside the mast foot?

I like it..... think outside the box!!

Back to the speed issue...... I can't see this thing not whipping the crap out of a Puffer. It's too short to really be a speed demon but it looks to plane very readily

FB- Doug

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On March 7, 2018 at 2:49 AM, Steam Flyer said:

I like it..... think outside the box!!

Back to the speed issue...... I can't see this thing not whipping the crap out of a Puffer. It's too short to really be a speed demon but it looks to plane very readily

FB- Doug

I hope I am wrong on both counts! Here is to an effective fix with non marine hardware and a maiden voyage with plenty of planing like a mofo in champagne conditions!

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Well, I managed to get in touch with the guy with the starring role in the YouTube video posted above. To the best of his recollection, the missing piece was nothing more than a plate bolted to the deck with a pin vertical to locate in the 'socket' in the base of the mast. No memory of anything in between other than grease. I'll be trying Vaseline since it shouldn't be too messy if it gets somewhere it's not intended to go!

Unfortunately, it will be at least a couple of months before the ice is off the lake for sea trials.

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10 minutes ago, Derek up North said:

Well, I managed to get in touch with the guy with the starring role in the YouTube video posted above. To the best of his recollection, the missing piece was nothing more than a plate bolted to the deck with a pin vertical to locate in the 'socket' in the base of the mast. No memory of anything in between other than grease. I'll be trying Vaseline since it shouldn't be too messy if it gets somewhere it's not intended to go!

Unfortunately, it will be at least a couple of months before the ice is off the lake for sea trials.

Wimp!

(posted from a sunny 65 deg F day in NC..... and no don't move here, you'd hate it. trust me on that)

FB- Doug

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Ah, I found my people!  With my weird little boat!  

Here's Hull 682.  It came with a new jib, and someone attempted to rig a roller furling mechanism for it (very poorly).  The centerboard and rudder were nicely redone when I got it, and even the cork handle has survived these many years.  Seems to have most of the original hardware, if you want photos (or maybe casts) of them.  Its a lovely hangar queen, taking up half of my garage, and needs a little work on the fiberglass (cracking in the pocket...not sure how i'm going to fix that one).

I bought it on craigslist about 4 years ago in Atlanta, GA.  Now it lives outside of Orlando, FL.

 

IMG_7917 (2).JPG

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