toad

Protest Panels

Recommended Posts

Anyone know the minimum number of people needed to form a protest panel under the RRS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Gutterblack said:

Anyone know the minimum number of people needed to form a protest panel under the RRS

3 will do. What level of event? Club, State, National?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Club, Can A protest to go ahead if we have one I J?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Gutterblack said:

Club, Can A protest to go ahead if we have one I J?

You don't need an IJ. Ideally having one who has done a Judges course because there are procedures that must be followed to avoid possible appeals.

The other 2 just need to be have a good grasp of the rules and useful if they have sat on a PC before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gutterblack said:

Anyone know the minimum number of people needed to form a protest panel under the RRS

One.

US Sailing Appeal 42

The rules do not prohibit protest committees of one person.

 

US Sailing Appeal 94

Question 2
May a protest committee have only one member?
Answer 2
Yes. Although it is generally preferable to have more than one, no rule specifies the number of
members of a protest committee.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Theire we go, difinitieve ansere in lesse then houre!                          :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, that saves us a few headaches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course at the Lota fishing and Fighting Club you don't need any members because the protests don't get accepted by the Race Committee.

Then if you have a Rule 69 Committee all the members resign so no problem either!

So the answer is always zero.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

And avoid having people who were sailing in the same event/division if possible.

Really not a good idea to sit on a panel for a class you're sailing in:

Quote

Conflict of Interest
A person has a conflict of interest if he
(a)may gain or lose as a result of a decision to which he contributes,
(b)may reasonably appear to have a personal or financial interest which could affect his ability to be impartial, or
(c)has a close personal interest in a decision.

Quote

63.4 Conflict of Interest
(a) A protest committee member shall declare any possible conflict of  interest as  soon  as  he  is  aware  of  it.  A party to  the  hearing who believes a member of the protest committee has a conflict of interest shall object as soon as possible. A conflict of interest declared  by  a  protest  committee  member  shall  be  included  in the written information provided under rule 65.2.
(b) A member  of  a  protest  committee  with  a conflict  of  interest shall not be a member of the committee for the hearing, unless
(1) all parties consent, or
(2)the protest committee decides that the conflict of interest is not significant.
(c)When deciding whether a conflict of interest is significant, the protest  committee  shall  consider  the  views  of  the parties, the level  of  the  conflict,  the  lev
el  of  the  event,  the  importance  to each party, and the overall perception of fairness.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2018-03-05 at 6:10 AM, Presuming Ed said:

Really not a good idea to sit on a panel for a class you're sailing in.

While it is not optimal, absent unusual circumstances it's usually not a problem for club racing. Rule 63.4(c) expressly provides flexibility to suit minor events.

Not every race is the America's Cup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/5/2018 at 1:24 AM, Port Phillip Sailor said:

You don't need an IJ. Ideally having one who has done a Judges course because there are procedures that must be followed to avoid possible appeals.

 

The current Judges course gets a number of unqualified people certified who pass the open book online test. Some have never raced!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, VWAP said:

The current Judges course gets a number of unqualified people certified who pass the open book online test. Some have never raced!!!!!!

you need to do more than just pass the test to be certified. You have to actually sit on PC's with qualified judges, even for the Club Judge cert. Sometimes, even when you volunteer to sit on a panel, the existing judges really don't go out of their way to make sure you can get certified.

The real question is this: if you have an arbitration clause, can the person who performed the arbitration then be a 1-person PC?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, VWAP said:

The current Judges course gets a number of unqualified people certified who pass the open book online test. Some have never raced!!!!!!

Some years ago. one of the TOP International Judges had never raced. He might be out of the game now - too old.

Unfortunately there is a tendency for people to be qualified without much on water experience. I've met one IRO whose on water racing experience didn't get past Optis. And another who had NEVER raced above small club level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ryley said:

The real question is this: if you have an arbitration clause, can the person who performed the arbitration then be a 1-person PC?

While no rule prohibits a protest committee of one, its always desirable to have at least three, even if a couple are relatively inexperienced.

The collegial process is absolutely invaluable.  Three heads are better than one.  All a protest committee really needs is three fair minded sailors and a rule book.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with an arbitrator sitting on the protest committee hearing a protest they have arbitrated, particularly if they have done no more than express an opinion based on the evidence provided by the representatives in accordance with Appendix T.  This ought not to be seen as an unshakable opinion that will not be changed by more complete evidence and argument in a full hearing.

While prejudgement or bias will not necessarily be established, it's hardly deniable that there is a conflict of interest.

If the parties don't like it they can withhold consent or object and the other protest committee members can decide whether there is a significant conflict of interest in accordance with rules 63.4 b and c, or, eventually appeal.

That said, running a rejected arbitration into a one up protest hearing is a bit like appealing from Caesar to Caesar. 

You might run it as far as ascertaining whether the parties consent to the arbitrator hearing the protest.  If they do consent, no problem, go ahead.   If a party withholds consent, there is a problem:  there is no "remainder of the protest committee" (rule M2.3) left to consider the significance of the conflict.  In that case the hearing should probably be adjourned until an acceptable protest committee can be appointed.

But really better to avoid one-out hearings in the first place. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

Some years ago. one of the TOP International Judges had never raced. He might be out of the game now - too old.

Unfortunately there is a tendency for people to be qualified without much on water experience. I've met one IRO whose on water racing experience didn't get past Optis. And another who had NEVER raced above small club level.

you might look at this. US ailing has done a very poor job with some of theses judges that are certified 

12.3 US Sailing Judge Program Qualifications

The following judge Qualifications and procedures apply for all levels of US Sailing Judge Certification, both initial and renewal. Judge qualifications are also posted on the Judges page of the US Sailing Website.

12.3.1 General Qualifications

  1. a)  Be a member in good standing of US Sailing before and during their term of certification.

  2. B)  Be willing to actively serve for a four (4) year term.

  3. c)  Maintain an up-to-date Sailing Officials Automated Reporting Systems (SOARS) account.

  4. d)  Understand that they are to make application to US Sailing for initial and renewal certifications.

  5. e)  Agree to abide by US Sailing’s Code of Conduct, Bylaws, Regulations and its Conflict of Interest policies.

12.3.2 Experience

a)

B) c)

Note:

Have experience as an active racing sailor for at least three complete racing seasons in a position requiring on-the-water application of the racing rules (as skipper, tactician, watch captain, navigator or similar position).

Attend a US Sailing Judges Seminar within the past four years applicable to the level of certification for which the applicant is applying. Seminar schedules are available on the Organize a Seminar section of the website.

Have passed the US Sailing Judges Exam within four years of the date applicable to the level of certification the applicant is applying for.

Possess the current publications of the Racing Rules (RRS), US Sailing Judges Manual, US Sailing Appeals Book and ISAF Case book.

For renewal, the Judges Committee may approve attendance at a symposium, regional conference or other forum in lieu of attending a Judges Seminar. Such meetings and their approval shall be posted in advance of the approved alternative session on the judges’ web page at US Sailing.

Chapter 12 Judges Program

May 2014 3 © 2014 US Sailing

Chapter 12 Judges Program

12.3.3 Personal Attributes

A US Sailing Judge must possess:

a)

Judicial temperament:

Be viewed by sailors and other judges as a person with judicial temperament fair, act with integrity, respect the rights of others);

B)

  1. 1)  Abstain from use of alcohol or other substances that may alter judgment until protest committee duties are complete;

  2. 2)  Work cooperatively with the race committee and organizing authority;

  3. 3)  Admit mistakes graciously and in a timely manner;

  4. 4)  Be viewed by other protest committee members as contributing, cooperative and thoughtful;

  5. 5)  Act as a strong and effective judge;

  6. 6)  View the hearing of protests as a service by sailors for sailors;

  7. 7)  Maintain the confidentiality of the deliberations of any protest committee;

  8. 8)  Understand that protest committee work comes before social obligations;

  9. 9)  Act completely free of favor or discrimination towards any sailors;

  10. 10)  Obtain permission from the Chief Judge and the Organizing Authority prior to communicating via Social Media or any other communication medium, about an incident, an official’s decision or any other action which took place at an event where they were or are acting in a capacity as a certified official.

A reputation for mature judgment:

Refrain from use of medications which might impair judgment or alertness;

  1. 1)  Take good care of other people’s property (boats, equipment, housing);

  2. 2)  Be able to conduct a rational discussion with someone with whom you disagree;

  3. 3)  Be considerate of and respect other people;

  4. 4)  Accept the assignment of tasks willingly and cheerfully.

An outstanding reputation for integrity:

  1. 1)  Do not expect extraordinary special treatment or privileges;

  2. 2)  Document actions; take responsibility for follow through;

  3. 3)  Seek advice from more experienced people when appropriate;

  4. 4)  Honor commitments and don’t exchange an event for a another event after committing;

  5. 5)  Be a good role model and mentor for those interested in becoming judges;

  6. 6)  Respond constructively to sailors and others under stress;

c)

May 2014

4 © 2014 US Sailing

(honest,

7) When representing US Sailing as a race official be polite, respectful and have proper authorization when using social media.

12.3.4 Technical Attributes

A judge must have thorough knowledge and understanding of the current RRS, US Sailing Appeals Decisions, ISAF Cases and the ability to use them appropriately. This is demonstrated by skills such as being able to:

  1. a)  Interpret the RRS and other rules as they are written;

  2. B)  Review the Notice of Regatta and Sailing Instructions so as to make constructive

    suggestions about them to the RC and OA;

  3. c)  Observe racing on the water and record critical events accurately when necessary;

  4. d)  Hear protests according to RRS Part 5, Appendix M (Recommendations for Protest Committees).

  5. e)  When applicable, be able to apply Appendix P (Immediate Penalties for Breaking Rule 42).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ryley said:

 

The real question is this: if you have an arbitration clause, can the person who performed the arbitration then be a 1-person PC?

Yes  unless you use good judgement .

The person hearing the arbitration should be your most experienced person as they have to clearly understand the rules, know the process and act quickly. The list of those qualified to properly hear arbitration  generally is limited 

Having everyone walking away thinking it was a fair process is aa important as getting the right decision. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For crap sake!! 

If is a game!! 

We play for fun!!

if sailors cannot figure out how to resolve a conflict they need to find somebody to help out.

a protest hearing is almost always caused by the failure of one or two competitors to sincerely try to figure out how to properly apply the rules.

When  the descriptions  presented by the bickering parties are obviously not those of two parties who experienced the same event, we sailors must work together to cause the offending lying sack of shit to get the fuck off our racecourses and never again  show his /her face in the community. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be interested in figures showing protests lodged / supported by pro's as to Corinthians

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Mid said:

I'd be interested in figures showing protests lodged / supported by pro's as to Corinthians

Pros tend to have a better grasp of the rules and end up in the room less often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

like I said , I'd like to see the figures , pro's are more willing to protest due to being paid for sheep stations IMHO .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Mid said:

like I said , I'd like to see the figures , pro's are more willing to protest due to being paid for sheep stations IMHO .

Corinthians tend to not be up to speed with the rules and will often think they are right when they are not. So they will end up protesting or being protested.

Pros tend to avoid rules situations so end up in the room less often. That being said, if they do end up in the room they are stubborn bastards and will refuse to accept they are wrong.

I doubt you will find the figures that you want. It's not something that statistics will generally be  kept on.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

Corinthians tend to not be up to speed with the rules and will often think they are right when they are not. So they will end up protesting or being protested.

Pros tend to avoid rules situations so end up in the room less often. That being said, if they do end up in the room they are stubborn bastards and will refuse to accept they are wrong.

I doubt you will find the figures that you want. It's not something that statistics will generally be  kept on.

 

 

Pros give each other “professional fouls”. It’s bad for business to end up in the room. Things are settled with a wink and a nod, I owe you one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

Pros give each other “professional fouls”. It’s bad for business to end up in the room. Things are settled with a wink and a nod, I owe you one.

not necessarily so , walking out of the room with a win equates to job done .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Mid said:

not necessarily so , walking out of the room with a win equates to job done .

not ending up in the room is better!

and if you know the rules you don't end up in the room.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

not ending up in the room is better!

and if you know the rules you don't end up in the room.

err , Comanche v WOX1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Mid said:

err , Comanche v WOX1

A perfect example of a stubborn bastard who refused to accept they were wrong - - and thought he had the protest committee in his pocket.

Ever wondered why Ian Murray didn't represent WO? A FAR more experienced sailor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

Pros tend to have a better grasp of the rules and end up in the room less often.

The culture where you sail must be very different to where I am. There are more hearings in every class at every Olympics than there have been in every event I've ever attended put together.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

And that's the only sailing that counts? Olympics?

Actually I've found most Olympic sailors to be rather clueless when it comes to the rules.

Most? Really?  Big call PPS

For some it would be feigned ignorance, they know the rules, but pretend not to. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, JimC said:

The culture where you sail must be very different to where I am. There are more hearings in every class at every Olympics than there have been in every event I've ever attended put together.

That must be  the culture from mid  last century when there were less pros. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

Corinthians tend to not be up to speed with the rules and will often think they are right when they are not. So they will end up protesting or being protested.

Pros tend to avoid rules situations so end up in the room less often. That being said, if they do end up in the room they are stubborn bastards and will refuse to accept they are wrong.

I doubt you will find the figures that you want. It's not something that statistics will generally be  kept on.

 

 

my experience has been exactly the opposite. Most corinthians I know don't protest because they'd rather be at the party. most of the pro sailing that makes it on youtube have umpires dishing out penalties on the water (S-H being the exception) so justice is swift. I kind of wish more corinthians *would* protest. It makes them better in the long run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, ryley said:

my experience has been exactly the opposite. Most corinthians I know don't protest because they'd rather be at the party. most of the pro sailing that makes it on youtube have umpires dishing out penalties on the water (S-H being the exception) so justice is swift. I kind of wish more corinthians *would* protest. It makes them better in the long run.

Some who hear protest think their task is to punish someone  or use any reason to get the process over as fast as possible, not make the game fair for all competitors or come up with the proper decision.  Now some  especially non pro sailors have little faith in the process and don't waste their time with it. The game has changed since last century and the dinosaurs  need to step back or get with the times and modern technology .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

 

When  the descriptions  presented by the bickering parties are obviously not those of two parties who experienced the same event, we sailors must work together to cause the offending lying sack of shit to get the fuck off our racecourses and never again  show his /her face in the community. 

 

Wow, sad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Last Post said:

Most? Really?  Big call PPS

For some it would be feigned ignorance, they know the rules, but pretend not to. 

I've been involved with Olympic class events. I've heard IJs say that their coaches should spend more time with their charges on the RRS.  That's my observation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ryley said:

my experience has been exactly the opposite. Most corinthians I know don't protest because they'd rather be at the party. most of the pro sailing that makes it on youtube have umpires dishing out penalties on the water (S-H being the exception) so justice is swift. I kind of wish more corinthians *would* protest. It makes them better in the long run.

I'm in Australia. The word Corinthian virtually does not exist here. Certainly not in sailing.

What we call Pro sailors are the top sailors. Paid or not. Probably the top 25% (roughly) of any fleet. I think you mean that pro sailors are the very few travelling the world competing in events that 99% of sailors can't get into. They get paid and it would seem that they rarely get into protests because those events are umpired. I couldn't give a fuck about them. I'm more interested in the 99%.

The rest range from as good as the pro sailors to people who've never looked in a rule book.

I recently attended a class Nationals. Most very experienced sailors - better than 50% of the fleet  are what I would call "pro". Nine races - not ONE protest. Observed a few 720s though.


I have found that the less experienced end up in the room because of incidents brought on by people not knowing the RRS, or pushing the limits. Some to the point of NO idea at all. Experienced sailors tend to avoid incidents, or if wrong, do the penalty turns.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check this. Festival of Sails - Geelong. Probably the biggest regatta in Australia.

Not sure of numbers but usually more than 300 over 3 or 4 days. A mix of pros (eg Ichi Ban) to the average Saturday afternoon club racer.

7 protests - 4 withdrawn. (mediation - Sydney 38s - considered pros)

 https://www.topyacht.com.au/protests/protests_prnt.php?ev=107.107.107.1.808

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

I've been involved with Olympic class events. I've heard IJs say that their coaches should spend more time with their charges on the RRS.  That's my observation.

What a crock of Horse shit. You've "heard" so that makes it so? Your observation or the IJs observation? Go tell your story to some Finn sailors bozo.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Last Post said:

What a crock of Horse shit. You've "heard" so that makes it so? Your observation or the IJs observation? Go tell your story to some Finn sailors bozo.

 

Don't have to. I've seen the prima donnas in action at 2 Gold cups dickhead - in Melbourne. And I've heard it straight from the IJ's mouths!

You probably don't know but the Finn Gold Cup (World Championships) has been in Melb 3 times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

Don't have to. I've seen the prima donnas in action at 2 Gold cups dickhead - in Melbourne. And I've heard it straight from the IJ's mouths!

You probably don't know but the Finn Gold Cup (World Championships) has been in Melb 3 times.

Your argument is not credible, firstly on the count that Olympic sailors don't know the RRS and secondly that IJs would make comments like that to losers like you.

You're gargling your own bullshit pal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Last Post said:

Your argument is not credible, firstly on the count that Olympic sailors don't know the RRS and secondly that IJs would make comments like that to losers like you.

You're gargling your own bullshit pal.

Idiot! I Many Olympic wannabes aren't good on the RRS. That's a FACT, MORON.

IJs DID make comments like that - not directly to ME. But in my presence, in a discussion with each other. Rules is ALL IJs talk about. They have nothing else in common..

You been on the piss all afternoon? You are coming across as such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Last Post said:

What a crock of Horse shit. You've "heard" so that makes it so? Your observation or the IJs observation? Go tell your story to some Finn sailors bozo.

 

Some people hear the most amazing things on their  lunch break when they're taking a pee at the public trough 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2018-03-08 at 9:41 AM, VWAP said:

Some who hear protest think their task is to punish someone or use any reason to get the process over as fast as possible, not make the game fair for all competitors or come up with the proper decision.

Perhaps occasionally at the club level. But in my experience, FWIW,  the great majority of judges, especially at regional or higher level events, are quite serious about the process, determined to do a good job, and keen to build their own experience and knowledge.

Just like ‘real’ judges in the legal system, there will always be a few rogues but they are the exception that prove the rule. And such people quickly acquire a reputation and will not be welcome back at most regattas.

On 2018-03-08 at 9:41 AM, VWAP said:

The game has changed since last century and the dinosaurs  need to step back or get with the times and modern technology .

I’m not sure what you mean by this. If you’re referring to video evidence, that is commonly accepted but of course it is only one, generally small, piece of the puzzle and doesn’t necessarily carry great weight. Many PCs are also open to using Skype or similar systems so that hearings may accommodate parties and witnesses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Svanen said:

Perhaps occasionally at the club level. But in my experience, FWIW,  the great majority of judges, especially at regional or higher level events, are quite serious about the process, determined to do a good job, and keen to build their own experience and knowledge.

Just like ‘real’ judges in the legal system, there will always be a few rogues but they are the exception that prove the rule. And such people quickly acquire a reputation and will not be welcome back at most regattas.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. If you’re referring to video evidence, that is commonly accepted but of course it is only one, generally small, piece of the puzzle and doesn’t necessarily carry great weight. Many PCs are also open to using Skype or similar systems so that hearings may accommodate parties and witnesses.

Video evidence is NOT commonly used in PC hearings. Read the judges manual.

Will a court of law be open to using Skype to hear witnesses? I think not!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Svanen said:

Perhaps occasionally at the club level. But in my experience, FWIW,  the great majority of judges, especially at regional or higher level events, are quite serious about the process, determined to do a good job, and keen to build their own experience and knowledge.

Just like ‘real’ judges in the legal system, there will always be a few rogues but they are the exception that prove the rule. And such people quickly acquire a reputation and will not be welcome back at most regattas.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. If you’re referring to video evidence, that is commonly accepted but of course it is only one, generally small, piece of the puzzle and doesn’t necessarily carry great weight. Many PCs are also open to using Skype or similar systems so that hearings may accommodate parties and witnesses.

Ok if that is your experience not always mine.

 

Video is mostly useless unless it is from straight overhead or possibly to prove you hailed protest if it was also recording sound.

With better technology things will change. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 minute ago, VWAP said:

Ok if that is your experience not always mine.

Video is mostly useless unless it is from straight overhead or possibly to prove you hailed protest if it was also recording sound

Sure; we can only go by our own experiences.

I acknowledge the problems inherent in video. But more and more competitors have GoPro on their boats, and many want to use the footage in the room. Provided that its limitations are kept firmly in mind (see generally M7), no PC should have any real difficulty with that.

On 2018-03-08 at 9:41 AM, VWAP said:

The game has changed since last century and the dinosaurs need to step back or get with the times and modern technology .

To what were you referring? ^^^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Svanen said:

In that case, you think wrong. It's still relatively uncommon, but far from unknown.

Here is a recent example from your own country. And here are the guidelines established by the Federal Court of Australia.

And why would a protestee need to give evidence via Skype rather than appear at a hearing? Who is likely to be harassing him/her at a protest hearing?

And how would the judges know if a witness was being coached from off camera? Can't do that in a hearing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Svanen said:

 

Sure; we can only go by our own experiences.

I acknowledge the problems inherent in video. But more and more competitors have GoPro on their boats, and many want to use the footage in the room. Provided that its limitations are kept firmly in mind (see generally M7), no PC should have any real difficulty with that.

To what were you referring? ^^^

If you think nothing has changed in sailing and technology since 1928 I do not know what to say  except this has gotten boring,

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2018-03-08 at 1:21 PM, Port Phillip Sailor said:

I'm in Australia. The word Corinthian virtually does not exist here. Certainly not in sailing.

The latest (April, 2018) issue of Seahorse contains an article (“It Gets No Easier”) by Rob Weilland, discussing the meaning of ‘Corinthian’ sailors.

Quote

Corinthian is often translated and limited to amateur, as in amateur yacht racing. I do not think whether one gets paid or not, or whether one pays crew or not, completely catches the term Corinthian but certainly to engage in competition purely for pleasure and honour is an essential element when defining Corinthian sport....

Using a term like Corinthian in Rules adds ambiguity. Each individual has his or her perception of the spirit in which a game shall be played; for a moment try to imagine the task of class managers and race officials attempting to find a correct balance in making decisions touching the spirit of the game.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Svanen said:

The latest (April, 2018) issue of Seahorse contains an article (“It Gets No Easier”) by Rob Weilland, discussing the meaning of ‘Corinthian’ sailors.

 

I do not know the RRS word for word, but I don't recall the word "Corinthian" anywhere in the rules. Can you give me an example or direction?

I cannot possibly know how every yacht club in Aus works, but I don't know of any club that uses the term Corinthian. Can you give me an example?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

I do not know the RRS word for word, but I don't recall the word "Corinthian" anywhere in the rules. Can you give me an example or direction?

I cannot possibly know how every yacht club in Aus works, but I don't know of any club that uses the term Corinthian. Can you give me an example?

 

Heard of this one ?

 

image.png.ae03df14c5a3f0c2669ff42634ed02a0.png

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

Heard of this one ?

 

image.png.ae03df14c5a3f0c2669ff42634ed02a0.png

No. That's a new one for me. How long have they had that division? Haven't been near the CYCA for years. Any other clubs have a Corinthian division?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

only about 4 years

Just trawled thru the CYCA website, It appears no other event has a Corinthian division. Not Offshore races nor Sydney - Southport.

edit, ... Same with RQYS, Hammo Race Week, Airlie RW, Geelong, - no Corinthian divisions.

I suppose CYCA has too much money - everyone's a winner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/9/2018 at 2:22 PM, Port Phillip Sailor said:

Video evidence is NOT commonly used in PC hearings. Read the judges manual.

Will a court of law be open to using Skype to hear witnesses? I think not!

Appendix M7 of the RRS and section 6.9.5 of the Judge's manual both deal with how to interpret photographic and video evidence. Nowhere in either section does it say that this evidence is not commonly used, and in the last 4 of 5 protests I was either party to or on the PC, both photographic and video evidence were introduced by one or both parties (as was GPS and RaceQS data). It must be common enough if both the RRS and the Judges manual address it.

Also, at least US Sailing has a guide for conducting video conference Protest hearings. It's called "Guidelines for Video Conference Protest or Redress Hearings" (an obscure name for sure). you can read it here yourself. http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Race Admin/Judges/Judge Documents 2013-2016/Guidelines for Video Conf. Hearings.pdf

To be honest I didn't check to see if world sailing had something similar but given that us Seppos are so backwater and quaint using terms like Corinthian, I'm sure the super advanced Eurotrash have considered how to have a conference using that newfangled video stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ryley said:

Appendix M7 of the RRS and section 6.9.5 of the Judge's manual both deal with how to interpret photographic and video evidence. Nowhere in either section does it say that this evidence is not commonly used, and in the last 4 of 5 protests I was either party to or on the PC, both photographic and video evidence were introduced by one or both parties (as was GPS and RaceQS data). It must be common enough if both the RRS and the Judges manual address it.

Also, at least US Sailing has a guide for conducting video conference Protest hearings. It's called "Guidelines for Video Conference Protest or Redress Hearings" (an obscure name for sure). you can read it here yourself. http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Race Admin/Judges/Judge Documents 2013-2016/Guidelines for Video Conf. Hearings.pdf

To be honest I didn't check to see if world sailing had something similar but given that us Seppos are so backwater and quaint using terms like Corinthian, I'm sure the super advanced Eurotrash have considered how to have a conference using that newfangled video stuff.

That's got to be one of the more stupid posts in this thread! I won't even bother to address the dumb points you have made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

That's got to be one of the more stupid posts in this thread! I won't even bother to address the dumb points you have made.

you said read the judges manual, and I did. it deals with how to handle photographic and video evidence, which you said really isn't handled. You also said you don't know the RRS word for word, which is obvious since it also deals with photographic and video evidence. You are at least right that "Corinthian" appears nowhere in the RRS.

you asked about skype in a court of law, which of course is really stupid because a PC isn't a court of law, and I pointed at a document that expressly addresses PC's and the use of video testimony. Are these "dumb points" simply because they contradict your world view? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, ryley said:

you said read the judges manual, and I did. it deals with how to handle photographic and video evidence, which you said really isn't handled. You also said you don't know the RRS word for word, which is obvious since it also deals with photographic and video evidence. You are at least right that "Corinthian" appears nowhere in the RRS.

you asked about skype in a court of law, which of course is really stupid because a PC isn't a court of law, and I pointed at a document that expressly addresses PC's and the use of video testimony. Are these "dumb points" simply because they contradict your world view? 

Very few (if any) would know the  RRS word for word. I think you are twisting my words, and attributing word to me that I did not use.. Go for it - I couldn't care less.

camera evidence.JPG

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, ryley said:

 

Also, at least US Sailing has a guide for conducting video conference Protest hearings. It's called "Guidelines for Video Conference Protest or Redress Hearings" (an obscure name for sure). you can read it here yourself. http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Race Admin/Judges/Judge Documents 2013-2016/Guidelines for Video Conf. Hearings.pdf

 

Here is one damn good reason for not allowing video conferencing at Protest Hearings. A witness could be coached from off camera and the PC wouldn't know.

Body language is important. Sometimes it is obvious when someone is lying. 

I did read the link. Do you really expect people to not listen in to proceedings when told not to?

present at hearing.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

sorry.. never mind :) your 24 point type totally convinced me of your argument. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, ryley said:

sorry.. never mind :) your 24 point type totally convinced me of your argument. 

That is a jpeg "snip". (a picture)straight out of the RRS. I have no control how big it appears on SA.

The "snip" on my computer appears about 14 point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The very first question they ask you in the room . . 

is whether or not you will accept the ruling of the committee. 

Then, as soon as the decision is rendered, the losing party 

will immediately start to whine and scream about the injustice of it all. 

Drives me nuts, and shows what a bunch of narcissistic psychos we have in our sport . . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

The very first question they ask you in the room . . 

is whether or not you will accept the ruling of the committee. 

Then, as soon as the decision is rendered, the losing party 

will immediately start to whine and scream about the injustice of it all. 

Drives me nuts, and shows what a bunch of narcissistic psychos we have in our sport . . 

That has not been my experience, either as a member of a PC, a protestor, or protestee. There is one exception, of course, who proves the rule, and he managed to whine his way all the way to US Sailing twice, losing every appeal along the way, twice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now