shaggybaxter

Who really believes tariffs are good business

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Whilst Trump plays tiddlywinks with global trade, lumping American allies and competitors for the top dog crown all in one basket, at least he’s uniting the rest of the world and giving them a common goal. 

The revised PTPP, renamed as the CPTPP, is bubbling along nicely. Not only that, the RCEP is becoming an even more serious power bloc too, albeit with tougher challenges.

What’s noticeable is the commitment to trading borders remain open and more determined than ever, but specifically not to the US if Trump continues his isolationist approach. Short summation below:

Conclusion of CPTPP does not deliver the big strategic goal of keeping the US entrenched in Asia. However, it still sends to Mr Trump a message on the region's commitment to openness. Holding the line and pushing back against growing protectionist sentiment keeps up the pressure. It could add momentum for broader liberalisation in Asia by facilitating expansion of membership and by lifting the ambition in the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP), an agreement being negotiated by the 10 ASEAN members as well as Australia, China, India, Japan, New Zealand and South Korea.
 

RCEP includes some of the largest and most dynamic economies in the world and is important enough to make a difference globally. An Australian Productivity Commission study estimates that even if tariffs were raised 15 percentage points globally (similar to what happened in the Great Depression), RCEP countries could all continue economic expansion if they abolished tariffs as a group. The gains for RCEP countries would be even larger with behind-the-border reforms.

Australia has a trade deficit on trade to the US by almost double, and have been told we are not exempt from the Trump steel and alloy tariffs. Talk about pushing away your trading partners.

Actions have consequences. It’s a shame Trump’s just too thick to think more than one sound bite ahead. 

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39 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Who really believes tariffs are good business

Trump and Union$, mostly. Possibly his strangest bedfellow?

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I've been running this argument in another forum.

One of the few really, really good things Trump has done since his election is kill off participation in the TPP.

Unfortunately for the USA, the good bit is for *us*, not you. I think it really funny that the reason he pulled out was not because we were getting screwed by the USA, but we weren't being screwed *enough*.

FKT

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1 hour ago, shaggybaxter said:

Whilst Trump plays tiddlywinks with global trade, lumping American allies and competitors for the top dog crown all in one basket, at least he’s uniting the rest of the world and giving them a common goal. 

The revised PTPP, renamed as the CPTPP, is bubbling along nicely. Not only that, the RCEP is becoming an even more serious power bloc too, albeit with tougher challenges.

What’s noticeable is the commitment to trading borders remain open and more determined than ever, but specifically not to the US if Trump continues his isolationist approach. Short summation below:

Conclusion of CPTPP does not deliver the big strategic goal of keeping the US entrenched in Asia. However, it still sends to Mr Trump a message on the region's commitment to openness. Holding the line and pushing back against growing protectionist sentiment keeps up the pressure. It could add momentum for broader liberalisation in Asia by facilitating expansion of membership and by lifting the ambition in the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP), an agreement being negotiated by the 10 ASEAN members as well as Australia, China, India, Japan, New Zealand and South Korea.
 

RCEP includes some of the largest and most dynamic economies in the world and is important enough to make a difference globally. An Australian Productivity Commission study estimates that even if tariffs were raised 15 percentage points globally (similar to what happened in the Great Depression), RCEP countries could all continue economic expansion if they abolished tariffs as a group. The gains for RCEP countries would be even larger with behind-the-border reforms.

Australia has a trade deficit on trade to the US by almost double, and have been told we are not exempt from the Trump steel and alloy tariffs. Talk about pushing away your trading partners.

Actions have consequences. It’s a shame Trump’s just too thick to think more than one sound bite ahead. 

Tariffs ?  

Everyone loves them... think of the difficulty the UK,  Brexit , is having gaining tRiff free  access to European market 

think of Germany .

Imported American manufactured cars face a 10 percent import duty

In the US , imported German cars face a 2.5 percent tariff.

this tariff  is the reason why Ford manufactures the Fiesta, its best selling car , in Mexico 

Mexico has tariff free trade with The eu. 

America has the most open market, lowest tariffs in the world.  America needs no lectures from foreigners.

time for change.  Too many american  jobs have been lost 

our trade partners can lower thier tariffs..

or America can raise hers...

hit them hard.... 

 

 

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Tariffs aren't a very good idea but like war, every now and then people need to be reminded why they generally suck.

Slug is broadly correct that American been far more accommodating than our partners in general.  That being said, WHY we were so accommodating is because, frankly, we could afford it.  We were powerful, had a huge engine of growth, were cranking out goods and services that were in high demand everywhere.

What we got in return was the tacit acknowledgement that our debt - the 10 year T-Bill - was the single most important piece of collateral on the planet.  More valuable that even land since it couldn't be seized and could be traded freely, even with our enemies.  When the shit hit the fan, the T-Bill was the final bulwark against economic collapse.  And it has held - 2008 proved that.  When everything else was suspect, we stepped in and said 'we got this' and cranked out 4 TRILLION dollars in debt and swapped it for shit paper all around the world - enough collateral to drive off even the most determined vultures - and the world nodded and said 'that'll do pig, that'll do'.

The return to tariffs is a admission of weakness.  Its an admission that our products aren't that much better than the competition, if at all - but people knew that.  The return to tarrifs is an admission that our brand isn't that much better either.  That's new.  ts a sign that the most powerful economic engine of the 20th century is running out of gas and we're struggling to agree on where to pull over and refill.

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The rest of our trade partners need to get onboard , reduce tariffs , trade barriers and play by the rules ....  Stop playing games

Issues like dumped Chinese alumium and steel have polluted the whole system.

this nonsense has been going on for years 

 

the good news about Trumps tariff stance is that it may force reform  of the whole trade system 

 

IMG_8229.PNG

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5 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Tariffs ?  

Everyone loves them... think of the difficulty the UK,  Brexit , is having gaining tRiff free  access to European market 

think of Germany .

Imported American manufactured cars face a 10 percent import duty

In the US , imported German cars face a 2.5 percent tariff.

this tariff  is the reason why Ford manufactures the Fiesta, its best selling car , in Mexico 

Mexico has tariff free trade with The eu. 

America has the most open market, lowest tariffs in the world.  America needs no lectures from foreigners.

time for change.  Too many american  jobs have been lost 

our trade partners can lower thier tariffs..

or America can raise hers...

hit them hard.... 

 

 

You may wish to look at your statement "America has the most open market, lowest tariffs in the world".  We are infamous, for instance, on professional licencing in both extent and degree of exclusion, much to our detriment.  

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5 hours ago, cmilliken said:

Tariffs aren't a very good idea but like war, every now and then people need to be reminded why they generally suck.

Slug is broadly correct that American been far more accommodating than our partners in general.  That being said, WHY we were so accommodating is because, frankly, we could afford it.  We were powerful, had a huge engine of growth, were cranking out goods and services that were in high demand everywhere.

What we got in return was the tacit acknowledgement that our debt - the 10 year T-Bill - was the single most important piece of collateral on the planet.  More valuable that even land since it couldn't be seized and could be traded freely, even with our enemies.  When the shit hit the fan, the T-Bill was the final bulwark against economic collapse.  And it has held - 2008 proved that.  When everything else was suspect, we stepped in and said 'we got this' and cranked out 4 TRILLION dollars in debt and swapped it for shit paper all around the world - enough collateral to drive off even the most determined vultures - and the world nodded and said 'that'll do pig, that'll do'.

The return to tariffs is a admission of weakness.  Its an admission that our products aren't that much better than the competition, if at all - but people knew that.  The return to tarrifs is an admission that our brand isn't that much better either.  That's new.  ts a sign that the most powerful economic engine of the 20th century is running out of gas and we're struggling to agree on where to pull over and refill.

back you up on that one.  It has been a long time since Bretton Woods

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21 minutes ago, Laker said:

back you up on that one.  It has been a long time since Bretton Woods

I'd say it's more a self-fulfilling prophecy. Trump says we're in trouble, then proceeds with actions to put us in trouble. 

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25 minutes ago, Laker said:

You may wish to look at your statement "America has the most open market, lowest tariffs in the world".  We are infamous, for instance, on professional licencing in both extent and degree of exclusion, much to our detriment.  

 Americas Average import tariff is 3 percent 

in the EU the average import tariff  14 percent 

the EU levies a 350 percent tariff on american tobacco

the eu levies a 140 percent tariff on American peanuts 

the Eu levies a 10 percent tariff on American cars 

If you would like I can go on and on ...country by country ..and prove that the US has the lowest average trade tariff in the world 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Sean said:

Trump might roll back his tariff proposal, but not before Pennsylvania 18th special election. Those tariffs are pretty popular in Pennsylvania. Not sure about that particular district though. https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-a-pennsylvania-steel-town-donald-trumps-tariff-is-a-winner-1520078400

No...i dont think so.

 Any tariff reductions will require reform of NAFTA and hard nosed negotiation  with China 

 

 

 

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Import tariffs protect workers.  Protecting workers is not high on the list of priorities for those who fund congressional and presidential elections. Fucking workers out of money and benefits on that list. 

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Canada buys more steel from the US than Canada exports. I'm sure if Canada retaliates on steel tariffs Canada can get the money back. But at what cost? On both sides of the border people will pay more for a car, a house, etc. The only people this hurts are the little guy, who also will be hurt by a recession most.  

If the world wishes to deter American tariffs, the world should stop buying American debt.  The purchase if Tbills and bonds will hit the US government. 

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7 minutes ago, HardOnWind said:

Import tariffs protect workers.  Protecting workers is not high on the list of priorities for those who fund congressional and presidential elections. Fucking workers out of money and benefits on that list. 

The Fanjul brothers would like to remind you that protecting their business interests is why we have sugar tariffs in the US and they don't give a fuck about workers. And they love to donate to politicians of all flavors.

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14 minutes ago, Irish River said:

Canada buys more steel from the US than Canada exports. I'm sure if Canada retaliates on steel tariffs Canada can get the money back. But at what cost? On both sides of the border people will pay more for a car, a house, etc. The only people this hurts are the little guy, who also will be hurt by a recession most.  

If the world wishes to deter American tariffs, the world should stop buying American debt.  The purchase if Tbills and bonds will hit the US government. 

They can try and stop buying T bills.

it wont end well for them 

IMG_8236.PNG

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

If you would like I can go on and on ...country by country ..and prove that the US has the lowest average trade tariff in the world

 

Tariffs.jpg

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 When comparing tariff rates , I suggest you review the " economic complexity  index " and avoid using shopping mall city states , gambling casinos. and tax havens as examples 

IMG_8233.PNG

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Didn't know Australia was one of those but I guess your facts can be whatever you want them to be, just add in a few more qualifiers to "prove" it. :lol:

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Whats the tariff on drone assassinations and military adventures these days?

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23 minutes ago, VhmSays said:

Didn't know Australia was one of those but I guess your facts can be whatever you want them to be, just add in a few more qualifiers to "prove" it. :lol:

Australia is a strip mine...it adds no value to products . Its trades iron ore for cars. 

 

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15 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Australia is a strip mine...it adds no value to products . Its trades iron ore for cars. 

 

You really can't help yourself can you Sluggo?

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

Australia is a strip mine...it adds no value to products . Its trades iron ore for cars. 

 

Australia used to make cars & export them. Not any more with cheaper cars from overseas, not to mention unions pricing themselves out of a job.

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4 hours ago, slug zitski said:

They can try and stop buying T bills.

it wont end well for them 

IMG_8236.PNG

Ahhh......because they set it that way.  Switzerland has very, very low sovereign debt. It can do it if it wants.

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5 hours ago, slug zitski said:

 If you would like I can go on and on 

Oh we are all well aware of that.

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5 hours ago, slug zitski said:

 Americas Average import tariff is 3 percent 

in the EU the average import tariff  14 percent 

the EU levies a 350 percent tariff on american tobacco

the eu levies a 140 percent tariff on American peanuts 

the Eu levies a 10 percent tariff on American cars 

If you would like I can go on and on ...country by country ..and prove that the US has the lowest average trade tariff in the world 

 

 

I noticed you stopped there.  Other than Brazil and some niche markets, I think you have come near the end.  BTW, Harley Davidsons need mufflers to be imported to EU has little to do with the tariff rate. Blue Jeans, you have a point.

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2 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Australia is a strip mine...it adds no value to products . Its trades iron ore for cars. 

 

Reeealllyy? So that's why the USA blocks our exports of sugar, sheep and a range of other agricultural products, is it? Not only by tariffs but absolute import quotas.

You should quit while you're behind because you're *never* going to get ahead.

FKT

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2 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Australia is a strip mine...it adds no value to products . Its trades iron ore for cars. 

 

And America's cup sailors for militery  bases. The imported Mustangs are selling well here. 

1000's of Australian men with tiny dicks who couldn't afford a Porsche now have something to smile about. 

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7 hours ago, Difícilmente En Viento said:

Import tariffs protect workers.  Protecting workers is not high on the list of priorities for those who fund congressional and presidential elections. Fucking workers out of money and benefits on that list. 

 I'm quite sure they want to protect the Americans who shop at Walmart from having their prices triple...at least while they are running for office. 

 It seems unlikely to me. The Chinese would have to be an order of magnitude dumber than they appear to be to go nuclear on this. However Congress is a panicky herd, and a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street.  

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Re: the OP - only morons with zero knowledge of history.

Tariff situations like the Orange Idiot's have only one result - tit for tat that impoverishes everyone.

Like most right wing stupidities, it's been done - numerous times - and always has the same result - economic disaster.

 

As an aside - has anyone else noticed that the Orange Idiots eyes are looking stupider and stupider as time goes by?

image.png.6f741de47c8dae9a3d702ba603565648.png

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

Re: the OP - only morons with zero knowledge of history.

Tariff situations like the Orange Idiot's have only one result - tit for tat that impoverishes everyone.

Like most right wing stupidities, it's been done - numerous times - and always has the same result - economic disaster.

 

As an aside - has anyone else noticed that the Orange Idiots eyes are looking stupider and stupider as time goes by?

image.png.6f741de47c8dae9a3d702ba603565648.png

Behind those eyes there's a whole lot of empty space with nothing good going on. Looks half drunk.

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16 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Whilst Trump plays tiddlywinks with global trade, lumping American allies and competitors for the top dog crown all in one basket, at least he’s uniting the rest of the world and giving them a common goal. 

The revised PTPP, renamed as the CPTPP, is bubbling along nicely. Not only that, the RCEP is becoming an even more serious power bloc too, albeit with tougher challenges.

What’s noticeable is the commitment to trading borders remain open and more determined than ever, but specifically not to the US if Trump continues his isolationist approach. Short summation below:

Conclusion of CPTPP does not deliver the big strategic goal of keeping the US entrenched in Asia. However, it still sends to Mr Trump a message on the region's commitment to openness. Holding the line and pushing back against growing protectionist sentiment keeps up the pressure. It could add momentum for broader liberalisation in Asia by facilitating expansion of membership and by lifting the ambition in the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP), an agreement being negotiated by the 10 ASEAN members as well as Australia, China, India, Japan, New Zealand and South Korea.
 

RCEP includes some of the largest and most dynamic economies in the world and is important enough to make a difference globally. An Australian Productivity Commission study estimates that even if tariffs were raised 15 percentage points globally (similar to what happened in the Great Depression), RCEP countries could all continue economic expansion if they abolished tariffs as a group. The gains for RCEP countries would be even larger with behind-the-border reforms.

Australia has a trade deficit on trade to the US by almost double, and have been told we are not exempt from the Trump steel and alloy tariffs. Talk about pushing away your trading partners.

Actions have consequences. It’s a shame Trump’s just too thick to think more than one sound bite ahead. 

If you think the "American Technology, Universities, Markets and our Defense umbrella" don't matter to you, by all means please unite against us. I hear China would love to be your friend, wink wink. 

A simple question for you. Does the US have any grounds at all for trade complaints against Mexico, China's manipulated currency  Canadian pulp and softwood,  European goods, worldwide intellectual property theft? Any? Even eensy teensy tiny ones? 

Well if you agree that maybe, just maybe, we have a valid trade argument or three then you may also understand that a negotiating position of "Please China if it isn't too much trouble would you like please pay for software, license patents you use, stop making knock offs, stop dumping, allow competitive bidding for foreign contractors,  let your currency float and stop barring US products from Chinese markets artificially? Pretty Please." is not how Trump works or thinks.

He always starts with nuclear hand grenades before the Tea and Scones come out.  I'm curious why this is such a hard lesson for the Left. 

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1 hour ago, Hillary said:

If you think the "American Technology, Universities, Markets and our Defense umbrella" don't matter to you, by all means please unite against us. I hear China would love to be your friend, wink wink. 

A simple question for you. Does the US have any grounds at all for trade complaints against Mexico, China's manipulated currency  Canadian pulp and softwood,  European goods, worldwide intellectual property theft? Any? Even eensy teensy tiny ones? 

Well if you agree that maybe, just maybe, we have a valid trade argument or three then you may also understand that a negotiating position of "Please China if it isn't too much trouble would you like please pay for software, license patents you use, stop making knock offs, stop dumping, allow competitive bidding for foreign contractors,  let your currency float and stop barring US products from Chinese markets artificially? Pretty Please." is not how Trump works or thinks.

He always starts with nuclear hand grenades before the Tea and Scones come out.  I'm curious why this is such a hard lesson for the Left. 

That's all well & good and all except the majority of your aluminium comes from CANADA not CHINA.

FKT

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14 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I've been running this argument in another forum.

One of the few really, really good things Trump has done since his election is kill off participation in the TPP.

 

Tell that to a farmer...That was going to open huge markets.

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1 hour ago, austin1972 said:

Tell that to a farmer...That was going to open huge markets.

Ummmm, it was good for *us*. The USA was going to keep right on blocking us from selling you sugar and a pile of other things we do better while extending copyright, pharma patents and a range of other things.

Look at the existing trade imbalance between the USA & Australia then tell me why we'd want to help you guys make it worse.

As I said, Trump's only problem with the TPP was, it didn't screw every other country ENOUGH.

FKT

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5 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Ummmm, it was good for *us*. The USA was going to keep right on blocking us from selling you sugar and a pile of other things we do better while extending copyright, pharma patents and a range of other things.

Look at the existing trade imbalance between the USA & Australia then tell me why we'd want to help you guys make it worse.

As I said, Trump's only problem with the TPP was, it didn't screw every other country ENOUGH.

FKT

That is the problem right there. Regardless of every other country or principle on earth, Donnie has to win.

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

That's all well & good and all except the majority of your aluminium comes from CANADA not CHINA.

FKT

Grenades tend to blow up in all directions. First salvo. More will come.

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9 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Ummmm, it was good for *us*. The USA was going to keep right on blocking us from selling you sugar and a pile of other things we do better while extending copyright, pharma patents and a range of other things.

Look at the existing trade imbalance between the USA & Australia then tell me why we'd want to help you guys make it worse.

As I said, Trump's only problem with the TPP was, it didn't screw every other country ENOUGH.

FKT

You mention a trade deficit with the US with a "we don't like it tone". Maybe you can see how we feel then about China etc.

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16 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Ummmm, it was good for *us*. The USA was going to keep right on blocking us from selling you sugar and a pile of other things we do better while extending copyright, pharma patents and a range of other things.

Look at the existing trade imbalance between the USA & Australia then tell me why we'd want to help you guys make it worse.

As I said, Trump's only problem with the TPP was, it didn't screw every other country ENOUGH.

FKT

I'll admit to it being a selfish comment. Markets are really tight right now and it hurts to watch neighbors go under. One neighbor hung himself a few weeks ago. He couldn't pull another note for the seed this year. Nice guy too.

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2 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

That is the problem right there. Regardless of every other country or principle on earth, Donnie has to win.

Until we get tired of winning, is how I think that goes. 

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3 minutes ago, Hillary said:

Grenades tend to blow up in all directions. First salvo. More will come.

main-qimg-c6ecfc17c7b27b9ccca9ed48adfb00

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1 hour ago, Hillary said:

You mention a trade deficit with the US with a "we don't like it tone". Maybe you can see how we feel then about China etc.

I don't care a great deal about the trade deficit TBH. I thought it would be worse than that. It's all swings & roundabouts. We have a relatively small population, we need to trade so we're more focused on export markets.

What we did learn, to our cost, was that tariffs end up doing a hell of a lot of damage right at home because the price of goods goes up & protected companies/industries don't innovate as they have no need to - they just fasten like leeches on their captive market. Your sugar industry is a classic example.

FKT

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3 hours ago, austin1972 said:

Tell that to a farmer...That was going to open huge markets.

Agriculture is difficult .  It falls under national security , not trade.

 

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28 minutes ago, slug zitski said:
3 hours ago, austin1972 said:

Tell that to a farmer...That was going to open huge markets.

Agriculture is difficult .  It falls under national security , not trade.

Oh, do tell. I suppose manufacturing and banking is going to be a national security issue now, since that's the only club Donny has left.

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10 hours ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

Australia used to make cars & export them. Not any more with cheaper cars from overseas, not to mention unions pricing themselves out of a job.

Uh, no. Car companies  wanted government  funding to replant  factories.  Gov said no....

 

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2 hours ago, austin1972 said:

I'll admit to it being a selfish comment. Markets are really tight right now and it hurts to watch neighbors go under. One neighbor hung himself a few weeks ago. He couldn't pull another note for the seed this year. Nice guy too.

Farmers around the  world  get it. They all want a fair crack. Politicians  and corporations want money. Once again, the poor fellows in the fields  get fucked over.

Sorry about your  neighbor.  And neighbors. 

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7 hours ago, ease the sheet said:

Farmers around the  world  get it. They all want a fair crack. Politicians  and corporations want money. Once again, the poor fellows in the fields  get fucked over.

Sorry about your  neighbor.  And neighbors. 

Those of us that make it don't rely on farm income. We also have 'real' jobs.

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24 minutes ago, austin1972 said:

Those of us that make it don't rely on farm income. We also have 'real' jobs.

Subsidies,  plus a second job , are common for most farmers in the developed world.

without subsidies places like Switzerland would  not produce any agricultural products.

a mediteranean olive grove is all about subsidies. 

Agriculture, fishing  will alway be different...case by case, country by country 

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17 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Subsidies,  plus a second job , are common for most farmers in the developed world.

without subsidies places like Switzerland would  not produce any agricultural products.

a mediteranean olive grove is all about subsidies. 

Agriculture, fishing  will alway be different...case by case, country by country 

not my cousins olive grove.  They are part of a consortium of 4 other groves in their area in Southern Italy near Bari.  Their grove has around 4000 Olive trees and each tree can make around 1-1.5 gallons of EVOO ...the good shit. The REAL good shit (think SUPER KIND BUD)  They are getting approx. $250-$300/gal. .  each grove there makes about the same. The 5 families combine resources, no govt. subsidies for them.   After all is said and done, they are able to pay their employees (only a handful)  keep the groove healthy and have a modest living in a beautiful farmhouse with everything they want.  Obviously it varies from area to area, country to country... this year the price is going up because most of the olive consortiums had a bad year in production....

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11 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Ummmm, it was good for *us*. The USA was going to keep right on blocking us from selling you sugar and a pile of other things we do better while extending copyright, pharma patents and a range of other things.

Highlights how US Corps have been more interested in finding ways to fuck other countrys over by market manipulation - right now the drug companys are salivating to go after NHS pricing in the UK - than they are interested in access to markets.

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1 hour ago, dacapo said:

not my cousins olive grove.  They are part of a consortium of 4 other groves in their area in Southern Italy near Bari.  Their grove has around 4000 Olive trees and each tree can make around 1-1.5 gallons of EVOO ...the good shit. The REAL good shit (think SUPER KIND BUD)  They are getting approx. $250-$300/gal. .  each grove there makes about the same. The 5 families combine resources, no govt. subsidies for them.   After all is said and done, they are able to pay their employees (only a handful)  keep the groove healthy and have a modest living in a beautiful farmhouse with everything they want.  Obviously it varies from area to area, country to country... this year the price is going up because most of the olive consortiums had a bad year in production....

The CAP  is complex.  I would not know how to interpret its direct impact on any particular farm .

 For olives,  in the past it was paid per tree to the owner of the tree, the land , not necessarily  the person who rents the land .

this was the angle that  the Mafia played. 

At present    2.5 billion euros per year  goes to olive oil subsidies .  

Italy is having a big problem with olive tree disease 

https://www.oliveoiltimes.com/olive-oil-business/europe/where-the-olive-trees-are-dying-report-on-xylella/59847

 

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18 minutes ago, Hillary said:

Investing your Ethanol subsidies?

I would like to know more about ethanol subsides...from a farmers perspective .

 

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1 minute ago, Dog said:

Are Trump's Tariffs really only a bargaining chips?

"President Donald Trump has turned his steel tariffs from a tool for protecting national security into a bargaining chip offered to Canada and Mexico to seal a quick deal on Nafta".

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-06/steel-tariffs-transform-into-nafta-chip-as-trump-plays-dealmaker

 

If it is just a bargaining chip, then Trump is hosed on his "national security" excuse and the WTO will calll him on it. I think all that came afterwards, though. He's rattled and he threw a tantrum, popped out a giant squirrel to occupy the headlines, then had to justify it. 

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16 minutes ago, Dog said:

Are Trump's Tariffs really only a bargaining chips?

"President Donald Trump has turned his steel tariffs from a tool for protecting national security into a bargaining chip offered to Canada and Mexico to seal a quick deal on Nafta".

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-06/steel-tariffs-transform-into-nafta-chip-as-trump-plays-dealmaker

 

Sounds like a barganing chip.

certainly got everyones attention .

 

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2 hours ago, slug zitski said:

The CAP  is complex.  I would not know how to interpret its direct impact on any particular farm .

 For olives,  in the past it was paid per tree to the owner of the tree, the land , not necessarily  the person who rents the land .

this was the angle that  the Mafia played. 

At present    2.5 billion euros per year  goes to olive oil subsidies .  

Italy is having a big problem with olive tree disease 

https://www.oliveoiltimes.com/olive-oil-business/europe/where-the-olive-trees-are-dying-report-on-xylella/59847

 

past two years, the olive yield has been lower....I've only been able to smuggle a gal. of the good stuff when in the past, my cousin has been able to ship me 5 gal. of liquid love....we don't discuss "family" with my cousin  

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27 minutes ago, dacapo said:

past two years, the olive yield has been lower....I've only been able to smuggle a gal. of the good stuff when in the past, my cousin has been able to ship me 5 gal. of liquid love....we don't discuss "family" with my cousin  

I got the distinct impression The 'Ndràngheta are not spoken about publicly in Calabria. 

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5 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Highlights how US Corps have been more interested in finding ways to fuck other countrys over by market manipulation - right now the drug companys are salivating to go after NHS pricing in the UK - than they are interested in access to markets.

Yes they were/are desperate to fuck over our PBS (pharmaceutical benefits scheme) which negotiates & bulk-buys drugs too. Not to mention 'evergreening' drug patents by bringing out a minor variant that does nothing new clinically, withholding clinical trial data used to get approval from 3rd parties etc etc.

I kind of hope Trump really does blow up the whole thing. Let's see how the Disney et al like having their copyright reduced to the original period of 14 years from publication.

FKT

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7 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Subsidies,  plus a second job , are common for most farmers in the developed world.

 

Oh i get it now - being a know -all boat cleaner is your second job.  The weed farm is how you really make ends meet.

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4 hours ago, slug zitski said:

I would like to know more about ethanol subsides...from a farmers perspective .

 

How come? Knowing fuck all about a subject doesn't normally stop you from wading in with your opinions

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4 hours ago, slug zitski said:

certainly got everyones attention .

Every word out of the mouth of the POTUS does.

That's the trouble with having a cretin as POTUS.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Every word out of the mouth of the POTUS does.

That's the trouble with having a cretin as POTUS.

^^^Yep. If you don’t think that having a feel good factor to negotiations is important, you’ve never done high level negotiations. 

Why do you think you have breakout sessions? Cos that’s where the real work gets done, and that’s done on relationships. 

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2 hours ago, random said:

Global trade is inflated by ships passing each other in opposite directions carrying the same stuff.

We export and import food. 

We produce ham, while importing the same stuff from Denmark.

Australian Citrus and grape growers go through boom and bust cycles that bankrupt businesses and families, while the country imports citrus concentrates from South America and grapes from all over the place.  It's fucked and If I were God that would not happen. 

The food miles and damage to the planet of this system is the fucking problem.

Unless you like variety and competition and recognize seasons and labor differentials.  

Can you imagine how terrible Australian cuisine would be without shipping?  

Or president's wives?

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there was a trans-national trade in wheat beginning in the 19th century. American robber-barons murdered emigrant farmers to sell cheap wheat to Australians, Europeans, Asians and Indians starting in the late 19th century. for a semi-fictional representation look at the works of Frank Norris - namely the first two volumes of the uncompleted epic of wheat "The Octopus" and "the Pit"

US wealth was built of the bodies of native americans, immigrant labor and foreigners.

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10 hours ago, slug zitski said:

I would like to know more about ethanol subsides...from a farmers perspective .

 

It's just a straight corn subsidy. I refuse to take it. There isn't a straight ethanol subsidy for the operator. I don't get to choose where the corn goes. It goes to the elevator or I sell to the river. And I feed some out. It's a spot price for the former two and is used in whatever way is chosen by them and their buyers.

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In a way, ethanol production is simply another corn subsidy I suppose. The USA grows a hell of a lot of it.

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7 hours ago, random said:

Even locally, there is a lot to do to reduce stupid waste of transport of goods.

I was following a truck loaded with CCA treated pine logs down a highway, wondering why he was not going to be fined for travelling in the fast lane in a 'no trucks in the fast lane' area.  Then I saw travelling in the opposite direction, a truck loaded with CCA treated pine logs with a different company brand on it. 

Now I know, it's about competition keeping prices down blah blah.  But it's fucked.  Why is it ok for goods to travel big distances when there is a local product available?

So globalisation and the capitalist system can only work if transport costs are low.  Looking at those trucks it is clear that fuel is too cheap.

Old awful sexist manipulative insane egomaniacal  Salesman joke:

What is the difference between love and rape?

Salesmanship!

Trump's a salesman.  The mindset’s now naked in the open, for everyone to marvel at (in their own way, of course!)!  Trucks passing on the road-is the result of a Good Idea (!!!). The Artwork of more than a few Deals, if you think about it.  

The Music Man.  G G Ross.  P T Barnum.  Thank you for Smoking!  Death of a Salesman, for example.:)

Pure Salesmen should never run a company.  Now you know why- its only about the Sell, nothing more.

Theres only one way to deal with a salesman- you’ve got to be willing to walk away....

how do we pull that off?

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, random said:

Not.

He has been sold to people who get caught in Nigerian email scams.

How can someone with the vocabulary of an 8 year old sell anything to intelligent people?  They can pick a fuckwit instantly.

He is a pawn in other people's sales plans.

It baffles me, but there are people who want to buy what he is selling....

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1 hour ago, random said:

Not.

He has been sold to people who get caught in Nigerian email scams.

How can someone with the vocabulary of an 8 year old sell anything to intelligent people?  They can pick a fuckwit instantly.

He is a pawn in other people's sales plans.

 

5 minutes ago, Amati said:

It baffles me, but there are people who want to buy what he is selling....

Hes a salesman to a t.

You both give his buyers  too much credit....

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

It baffles me, but there are people who want to buy what he is selling....

He's a cheap hustler.

If he hadn't been born rich he'd be selling time shares or be shilling in a carny somewhere.

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"The difference between a Salesman and a Conman is belief in their product".....J. Douglas Edwards. There is nothing at all wrong with a true professional salesman, nothing happens until something is sold.

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1 hour ago, pond sailor said:

"The difference between a Salesman and a Conman is belief in their product".....J. Douglas Edwards. There is nothing at all wrong with a true professional salesman, nothing happens until something is sold.

And Trump only believes in his own bank account.

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EU lines up its salvos to fight Trump tariffs

List of items proposed for new import duties ranges from peanut butter to Harley-Davidson motorcycles and Levi’s jeans.

Quote

 

She noted that the U.S. had cited a threat to its national security as the rationale for introducing the trade measures.

“We have serious doubt about that justification. We cannot see how the European Union—friends and allies in NATO—can be a threat to national security in the U.S.,” Malmstrom said at a press conference in Brussels. “We find that assumption deeply unjust.”

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/eu-lines-up-its-salvos-to-fight-trump-tariffs-2018-03-08?siteid=rss&rss=1&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

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Quote

The Great Depression lasted from 1929 to 1939, and was the worst economic downturn in the history of the industrialized world. It began after the stock market crash of October 1929, which sent Wall Street into a panic and wiped out millions of investors. Over the next several years, consumer spending and investment dropped, causing steep declines in industrial output and employment as failing companies laid off workers. By 1933, when the Great Depression reached its lowest point, some 15 million Americans were unemployed and nearly half the country’s banks had failed.

https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression

 

do we really want round 2 ?

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Trump understands branding and uses it as well as any American businessman ever has.  He understands how the mass media works, how to manipulate it, and they love him for it.  He's far better at marketing than sales. 

The problem is that eventually the engineers/reps have to come in and make his advertisement promises come true.  That hasn't proven effective as a president.  Congress isn't there to clean up his mess - it's there to enforce his vision and check his power.  But he's not a deeply convicted person and so they can't do either - and thus we flounder.

 

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14 hours ago, random said:

 

He has been sold to people who get caught in Nigerian email scams.

 

This.

Speaking as the owner of an email account that Tea Party Nation thinks belongs to one of the faithful... having just cleaned out 3 years' worth of junk from its inbox... you are even more right than you realize.

I'd never received an actual nigerian scam email before.  That account has 3-4 per page  -  and that's counting only the ones that got past Google's filters.  And not including TPN sponsors flogging sketchy annuities & such.

 

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Some Trumptards crying on the radio this morning.

"What do you mean 25% steel tariffs? our company might have to shut down! Can we get an exemption?"

Stupid fucks.

 

Basically, we're gonna KILL higher end manufacturing cause the worldwide price of steel is low. How stupid is THAT.  

 

Tariffs on manufactured goods that took advantage of no labor laws and no environmental standards? That's reasonable.

 

This? Stupid.

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27 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Some Trumptards crying on the radio this morning.

"What do you mean 25% steel tariffs? our company might have to shut down! Can we get an exemption?"

Stupid fucks.

 

Basically, we're gonna KILL higher end manufacturing cause the worldwide price of steel is low. How stupid is THAT.  

 

Tariffs on manufactured goods that took advantage of no labor laws and no environmental standards? That's reasonable.

 

This? Stupid.

 

Trump's right when he says that the US has been taken advantage of, the Tariff approach is akin to performing heart surgery with a splitting maul.   If he had an ounce of foresight, he'd engage the WTO and propose a multi-lateral approach to dealing with China's dumping, not try to apply the blunt hammer of tariffs. 

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4 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

 

Trump's right when he says that the US has been taken advantage of, the Tariff approach is akin to performing heart surgery with a splitting maul.   If he had an ounce of foresight, he'd engage the WTO and propose a multi-lateral approach to dealing with China's dumping, not try to apply the blunt hammer of tariffs. 

Trade flows...globalization ...have  not benefitted US  manufacturing 

the world uses the US as consumer of choice , then  protects thier own internal markets with tariffs.

 

the Germans export one million cars a year to the US , at very very low import tariff, but protect the European Market with  high tariffs , equal to the profit on an American car , to prevent American cars from gaining market share .

im glad that Trump is confronting this issue.

 

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4 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Trade flows...globalization ...have  not benefitted US  manufacturing 

the world uses the US as consumer of choice , then  protects thier own internal markets with tariffs.

the Germans export one million cars a year to the US , at very very low import tariff, but protect the European Market with  high tariffs , equal to the profit on an American car , to prevent American cars from gaining market share .

im glad that Trump is confronting this issue.

A guy with a toothache wants the tooth gone - but, he doesn't want to take off his head in doing so. 

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