shaggybaxter

Who really believes tariffs are good business

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1 minute ago, Swimsailor said:

So, couldn't China simply retaliate by selling all that US Gov debt they own?  Not sure it would be a wise move for them but China is the only reason we can afford so many bombs and F-35's.  To say we don't need China is to completely ignore they are our biggest (or second to Japan) lender.  

We are by far our largest lender.  70% of debt is domestically held.  

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9 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

We are by far our largest lender.  70% of debt is domestically held.  

Biggest *foreign lender?

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2 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Biggest *foreign lender?

China and Japan

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41 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

China and Japan

Righties, see how easy it is to learn something new?  It's not hard to say something, be corrected, go do a quick search and then be better for it afterwards. 

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Just now, Swimsailor said:

Righties, see how easy it is to learns something new?

As of 2018 they each hold just over 1 trillion in US debt

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9 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

As of 2018 they each hold just over 1 trillion in US debt

Oh I can see that working out so well for Donnie the bankrupt.

The Saudi’s and the Rooskies already own Donnie’s ass what could possibly go wrong?

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12 hours ago, Fakenews said:

Trump thinks tariffs are a good idea!  He just way upped the crazy with new tariffs now up to 30%.  Lets hope he does the same to the Germans.  We will soon be rid of this meddlesome man!

He is calling them taxes now, so there's that.

Trump Announces Higher Tariffs. At Least He Called Them 'Taxes.'
 

Quote

 

In a series of Friday evening tweets, President Donald Trump announced that he will hike existing tariffs on Chinese imports to 30 percent from 25 percent and will increase the next round of tariffs to 15 percent from 10 percent.

But at least he's finally admitting that tariffs are taxes:

...Trump's rage-tweeting today and his impulsive decision to hike taxes on American businesses and consumers—at a time when he's reportedly worried about a potential recession—is yet more evidence that the trade war with China is anything but "good and easy to win."

 

Offered with the usual apology for posting more Koch-$pon$ored Trump cheerleading.

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Like all wars, this one has been brewing for a long time and we're now pretty much fully engaged.

The Chinese have two more major offensives they can deploy.  The first is the Rare Earth card.  The second is an actual war.  Look for some sort of special legislation indemnifying Mountain Pass, Nevada and putting it under DOE, similar to Hanford, although the true 'Trump' card would be to hand it over to the pentagon which he would likely? be able to do with executive order as an issue of national security.  Rare earths aren't rare - processing them is messy and the western world doesn't like messy so we let the Chinese do it, just like France lets Russia reprocess nuclear waste.  But there's a MASSIVE canyon between 'we can't', and 'don't want too' - we just don't want too.  The Chinese use the process the US developed to refine the stuff.

An "actual" war would most likely be either be a kerfuffle over the South China Sea or an attempt to close off the Taiwan straight or something similar.  I actually expect that to come sometime in the next 24 months.

The bond dump isn't real IMHO.  No one believes the Yuan.  it's not a senior currency for good reason.  The yuan kind of acts like one because there's a trillion dollar reserve of 10-years backing it and because we're still playing nice.  No reserve, no more illusion.  We already know what happens when the shit really hits the fan and NO ONE fled to the Yuan for safety.  NO ONE - ESPECIALLY the Chinese - believe in their currency.  That's why there's a 'two price' system for yaun - just like the Ruble and every other 'sort of' currency - and so much of it is laundered into foreign capitals.  The Yuan Is swimming naked and is exposed badly whenever the tide goes out.

I think the Chinese misread Trump's delay and his goal.  Frankly, I expect to see a 100% tariff on all Chinese goods by election time next year and a FRANTIC effort by Malaysia, Taiwan, So. Korea, and most importantly, India to fill the void.

India is really the wild card in this.  If they can get their shit together fast enough, this is a HUGE win for them.  I'd actually like to see one of the African countries step up and fill the void but I don't think they're  ready yet.  

 

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12 minutes ago, Repastinate Tom said:

Offered with the usual apology for posting more Koch-$pon$ored Trump cheerleading.

From beyond the grave no less!  Zombie Koch-$pon$ored Trump cheerleading 4tehwin!

 

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2 hours ago, cmilliken said:

From beyond the grave no less!  Zombie Koch-$pon$ored Trump cheerleading 4tehwin!

Tom really can't help himself. Think how tired of this Mrs Ray must be.

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2 hours ago, cmilliken said:

Like all wars, this one has been brewing for a long time and we're now pretty much fully engaged.

The Chinese have two more major offensives they can deploy.  The first is the Rare Earth card.  The second is an actual war.  Look for some sort of special legislation indemnifying Mountain Pass, Nevada and putting it under DOE, similar to Hanford, although the true 'Trump' card would be to hand it over to the pentagon which he would likely? be able to do with executive order as an issue of national security.  Rare earths aren't rare - processing them is messy and the western world doesn't like messy so we let the Chinese do it, just like France lets Russia reprocess nuclear waste.  But there's a MASSIVE canyon between 'we can't', and 'don't want too' - we just don't want too.  The Chinese use the process the US developed to refine the stuff.

An "actual" war would most likely be either be a kerfuffle over the South China Sea or an attempt to close off the Taiwan straight or something similar.  I actually expect that to come sometime in the next 24 months.

The bond dump isn't real IMHO.  No one believes the Yuan.  it's not a senior currency for good reason.  The yuan kind of acts like one because there's a trillion dollar reserve of 10-years backing it and because we're still playing nice.  No reserve, no more illusion.  We already know what happens when the shit really hits the fan and NO ONE fled to the Yuan for safety.  NO ONE - ESPECIALLY the Chinese - believe in their currency.  That's why there's a 'two price' system for yaun - just like the Ruble and every other 'sort of' currency - and so much of it is laundered into foreign capitals.  The Yuan Is swimming naked and is exposed badly whenever the tide goes out.

I think the Chinese misread Trump's delay and his goal.  Frankly, I expect to see a 100% tariff on all Chinese goods by election time next year and a FRANTIC effort by Malaysia, Taiwan, So. Korea, and most importantly, India to fill the void.

India is really the wild card in this.  If they can get their shit together fast enough, this is a HUGE win for them.  I'd actually like to see one of the African countries step up and fill the void but I don't think they're  ready yet.  

 

Actual war in 12 months would get much better ratings and help with the re-election bid. 

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So what Co will Trump nationalize first? Apple?

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12 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

So what Co will Trump nationalize first? Apple?

Raytheon 

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Maybe he’ll arrest the Fed chair on charges of treason.

@A guy in the Chesapeake Think Moscow Mitch will pass legislation to remove this power from this and future presidents? 

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7 hours ago, cmilliken said:

I think the Chinese misread Trump's delay and his goal. 

I don't think they did at all - I think they are calling Trumps bluff. They know what most in the US don't know or won't acknowledge: that Trumps a bullshitter, a grandstanding bullshiter, interested only in making spectacle and not interested in resolving anything. Trump would have preferred to run this China trade conflict forever. Unfortunately for Trump the PRC has it's own internal issues that TeamTrump appear to know little about and care even less. And the way Trump has chosen to wage this "trade war" is very useful for the PRC and its rulers. A moronic wannabe authoritarian autocrat that sees no problems with restrictions on freedoms waging a culture war? That's Xi's dream opponent.

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The TPP was all about curbing China''s economic might and forcing them to the table. 

And Trump threw it in the bin because it was an Obama policy. Even though it was working, with 12 regional nations focused on curbing China economically. 

And now Trump is "the chosen one"for having to go it alone in dealing with China.  

(insert pregnant pause here while I digest this a bit...)

So.... you have a boss that is a dumb cunt with a lizard brain that is driven by revenge and spite with a memory like a fish called Dory. You get to toss in a gutless bully and compulsive liar as a little bonus. 

But he had a rich daddy.

This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.  

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4 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

The TPP was all about curbing China''s economic might and forcing them to the table. 

And Trump threw it in the bin because it was an Obama policy. Even though it was working, with 12 regional nations focused on curbing China economically. 

And now Trump is "the chosen one"for having to go it alone in dealing with China.  

 

So.... you have a boss that is a dumb cunt with a lizard brain that is driven by revenge and spite with a memory like a fish called Dory.

This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.  

 

Bingo.

The Trumpalos here all seem to think that trying to fight a stupid, sure-to-lose trade war against China somehow makes Trump a hero. But then, they are completely disconnected with the economic facts.

- DSK

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9 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Bingo.

The Trumpalos here all seem to think that trying to fight a stupid, sure-to-lose trade war against China somehow makes Trump a hero. But then, they are completely disconnected from facts.

- DSK

ftfy

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25 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Bingo.

The Trumpalos here all seem to think that trying to fight a stupid, sure-to-lose trade war against China somehow makes Trump a hero. But then, they are completely disconnected with the economic facts.

- DSK

Steam, 

Be careful if you're travelling, there's broken glass everywhere at the moment, and we can hear even from here the Europeans breaking all the plates and furniture pre G7.

What is stunning is the TPP was 7 years in the planning and teasing together of the coalition. 

And he replaces it with diplomacy by tweet and tantrums.   

I mean...just...wow.  

We're all desperately guzzling the Kool-Aid with you guys that this administration has just one collective brain cell, but I gotta tell you it smells and tastes like shit. 

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About the OP question.

What 'business' are you talking about?

Seems to me that the traditional definition of Business is the Big End of Town.  Extrapolating that out, as it has been doing, globalisation has rapidly funneled the resurces to the top 1%.  It's like believing that the Adani coal mine will employ 10,000 people in central Queensland.  That what is good for the 1% is good for everyone else.  Seems to me there is a strong case that the opposite is true.

It makes no sense the import powdered orange juice from Brazil, while Australian citrus growers are going broke.  That we no longer refine our own fuel, that's just dangerous.  Before you know it we will be getting blackmailed into participating in actions we would rather not, by the people who control the oil. 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

So.... you have a boss that is a dumb cunt with a lizard brain that is driven by revenge and spite with a memory like a fish called Dory. You get to toss in a gutless bully and compulsive liar as a little bonus. 

But he had a rich daddy.

This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.  

To the bolded - the 40% of the US that thinks Trumps doing a good job or who are still blaming the Democrats or who, like AGITC and Jeffreaux and BM and the other elk who claim to not like Trump but are actively ennabling Trump won't change after he's out of office.

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From Reuters

A long read but it gives you an understanding of the incredible stiupidity of Donnie the Bankrupt Dumfucks actions.

 

 
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  •  

(Reuters) - The world’s two largest economies, China and the United States, on Friday exchanged blows in the latest escalation in their trade war that has roiled supply chains and whipsawed financial markets. 

 
 
 
 
China said it would slap retaliatory tariffs on about $75 billion worth of U.S. goods, while President Donald Trump announced a 5 percentage-point hike in tariffs already in place and others set to take effect next month. 

Trump also demanded that U.S. companies take steps to exit China, throwing a new twist into a bitter trade war now in its second year, although Trump cannot legally compel U.S. companies to abandon China immediately.

Beijing’s planned tariffs will add as much as 10% on top of existing rates after Trump said he would impose tariffs on another $300 billion worth of Chinese products.

Washington has long pressed Beijing for wide-ranging economic reforms, including better protection for American intellectual property, ending subsidies that favor Chinese state-owned enterprises, and improving access to China’s markets for U.S. companies.The United States has already imposed tariffs on $250 billion of Chinese imports. Trump has said bad trade deals with China and others have cost millions of American jobs.

Below are some of the costs of Trump’s push to rewrite the terms of global trade with China and other top trade partners:

GLOBAL ECONOMY

Fitch Ratings has estimated that extending tariffs to cover another $300 billion in Chinese goods would chop 0.4% from world economic output.

 

The International Monetary Fund said last month that global trade in the first quarter of 2019 was the slowest since 2012, noting big downside risks for world growth if more tariffs are imposed.

Trump has said China pays the tariffs he has imposed on Chinese goods, but tariffs are paid by U.S.-registered firms when the products enter the United States. Importers often pass the cost onto consumers via higher prices

FARMING & ENERGY

American farmers have been among the hardest hit so far. China is the top market for many of their biggest crops and has hit them with retaliatory tariffs, aiming at U.S. farmers because they helped vote Trump into power.

The trade war has hurt sales of many agricultural products, including fruit, meat and grains. Soybeans are the single biggest U.S. agricultural export, most of which went to China before the trade war.

U.S. soybean exports to China were at their lowest level since 2002 in the January-June period, according to U.S. government data. Pork exports are at a nine-year low, and shipments of U.S. sorghum are down 96% from a 2015 peak.

Corn and soybean futures prices tumbled in response to Beijing’s announcement.

To compensate for lost sales to China, the U.S. government has offered $28 billion in aid to U.S. farmers, of which about $8.6 billion had been doled out as of the end of June.

U.S. crude was also on the list of new Chinese tariffs, causing oil prices to drop on Friday. U.S. crude fell 3.47% to $53.40 per barrel and Brent was last at $58.56, down 2.27%.

TECH

Tech companies were the among the hardest hit on Friday, with tech stocks on the S&P 500 index closing down 3.2% close. The tariff-sensitive Philadelphia chip index .SOX slid 4.4%. Shares of chip manufacturer Nvidia Corp (NVDA.O) lost 5.3% and Apple Inc (AAPL.O) fell 4.6%. 

Tariffs are costing the U.S. tech sector $1.3 billion a month, the Consumer Technology Association said in a statement to the United States trade representative in June. The U.S. plan for more tariffs would raise the retail price of cellphones by an average of $70, laptop computers by $120 and video game consoles by $56, the association has said. 

Apple’s AirPod, Apple Watch and HomePod, which have helped the company offset waning sales of its bestselling iPhone this year, will face a 15% levy on Sept 1. MacBooks and iPhones will face 15% tariffs on Dec. 15. 

The company said in June that the new round of U.S. tariffs would reduce its contributions to the U.S. economy and hurt its global competitiveness. 

RETAIL WOES

U.S. retailers say consumers will be hit especially hard by the tariffs due to take effect in two stages, on Sept. 1 and Dec. 15.

The American Apparel & Footwear Association estimates that 77% of U.S. imports of apparel, footwear and home textiles from China - or about $39 billion worth of goods - will be hit when the new 15% tariffs kick in on Sept. 1.

The tariffs already imposed on China are estimated to cost the average American household $600 per year, according to a report by JPMorgan Chase. That will rise to $1,000 if the tariffs on another $300 billion of U.S. imports take place, the bank added. 

VEHICLES, EQUIPMENT 

Carmakers would be risking significant sales if they abandoned China. 

General Motors Co (GM.N) last year sold more than 3.64 million vehicles in China, accounting for more than 43 percent of unit sales globally. Ford Motor Co (F.N) last year reported revenue in Asia Pacific of $12.4 billion. Ford does not break out China revenue, but the country accounted for the majority of its sales in that region. 

Trump’s steel and aluminum tariffs have added billions of dollars to the cost of assembling U.S. vehicles, and tariffs on Chinese-made parts have also hiked costs.

Motorcycle manufacturer Harley-Davidson (HOG.N) was hit by retaliatory tariffs from the European Union for the metals tariffs. The company calculates spending $100 million on tariff costs in 2019. 

Motor home maker Winnebago Industries Inc (WGO.N) said it expected at least $10 million in added cost pressures in fiscal 2020 from the latest tariffs and proposed duties. 

Equipment manufacturer Deere & Co (DE.N) last week trimmed its full-year earnings forecast for the second time in three months, citing the U.S.-China trade war and bad weather, and said it will cut production at its facilities in Illinois and Iowa in the second half of 2019. 

Deere and rival Case New Holland CNHCN.UL have passed on higher costs from metals tariffs to customers, further lifting farm costs.

OTHER RISING COSTS

Steel and aluminum tariffs were among the first to be levied by the United States in early 2018 and included imports from almost the entire world. The move benefited U.S. steel producers, but not the manufacturers that process the metal.

The tariff burden on U.S. steel and aluminum buyers was almost $5 billion last year, according to the American Action Forum.

Reporting by Jonas Ekblom in Washington and Chris Prentice in New York; Additional reporting by Ben Klayman in Detroit and David Shepardson and Andrea Shalal in Washington; Editing by Leslie Adler

 

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50 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

ftfy

I seem to remember you being in support of the tariff action against China.  

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EC0AkdHXUAAl0Gn.jpg

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5 hours ago, Mid said:

EC0AkdHXUAAl0Gn.jpg

President Kudlow does not back down.

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I don't think larry and donnie have half a brain been them, XI is ten times smarter them
Everything China does is thought out unlike the knee jerk reaction from the WH,
 even if your cut a head off( no brains)  the knee will still reacts 
Trump is playing checkers ( king me) and China is playing chess
  • White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow said on Sunday that he doesn’t believe China will retaliate against additional tariffs on Chinese imports that President Donald Trump announced Friday.
  • Trump said the U.S. will raise existing tariffs on $250 billion worth of Chinese goods to 30% from 25% in October. 
  • He also raised tariffs from 10% to 15% on another $300 billion of Chinese goods. Some of those tariffs will start on Sept. 1 while others have been delayed until Dec. 15. 
  • China said on Saturday that it strongly opposes Trump’s decision to levy additional tariffs on $550 billion worth of Chinese goods, and warned the U.S. of consequences if it does not end its “wrong actions.”

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22 hours ago, random said:

Jerkz is back!

So how much rice did you bag?

Nice to see you, randipshit.   Had a nice week in Lucaya.  Sorry I didn't have time for you.

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11 minutes ago, garuda3 said:
I don't think larry and donnie have half a brain been them, XI is ten times smarter them
Everything China does is thought out unlike the knee jerk reaction from the WH,
 even if your cut a head off( no brains)  the knee will still reacts 
Trump is playing checkers ( king me) and China is playing chess
  • White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow said on Sunday that he doesn’t believe China will retaliate against additional tariffs on Chinese imports that President Donald Trump announced Friday.
  • Trump said the U.S. will raise existing tariffs on $250 billion worth of Chinese goods to 30% from 25% in October. 
  • He also raised tariffs from 10% to 15% on another $300 billion of Chinese goods. Some of those tariffs will start on Sept. 1 while others have been delayed until Dec. 15. 
  • China said on Saturday that it strongly opposes Trump’s decision to levy additional tariffs on $550 billion worth of Chinese goods, and warned the U.S. of consequences if it does not end its “wrong actions.”

China and the US are both behaving very stupidly.  Xi wants world domination.  His best path would be to shut the fuck up, eliminate tariffs, stop fucking around in the South China sea and let his country continue to become a world powerhouse.  Instead, he is all about "face" and can't make a good decision.

And who knows what is up with Trump.  He is pandering to a crowd that thinks he is protecting their jobs.  But at the same time causing huge economic pain to the US.  Stupid.

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Am I detecting a right to left shift in your rhetoric jzk?

Has the fact that Donnie’s gonna cost you a lot of money all of a sudden have any bearing on the matter?

 

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31 minutes ago, jzk said:

China and the US are both behaving very stupidly.  Xi wants world domination.  His best path would be to shut the fuck up, eliminate tariffs, stop fucking around in the South China sea and let his country continue to become a world powerhouse.  Instead, he is all about "face" and can't make a good decision.

And who knows what is up with Trump.  He is pandering to a crowd that thinks he is protecting their jobs.  But at the same time causing huge economic pain to the US.  Stupid.

China is a pollution spoiled place with an autocratic government.  They also enjoy a very low standard of living.

Why don't you just scream the sky is falling?

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13 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

Am I detecting a right to left shift in your rhetoric jzk?

Has the fact that Donnie’s gonna cost you a lot of money all of a sudden have any bearing on the matter?

 

When did free trade become "left?" 

You gotta hand it to Trump for converting all the lefties into free traders.  

It isn't costing me any money.  It is costing you money.

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4 minutes ago, jzk said:

It isn't costing me any money.  It is costing you money

If Donnie’s tariff war leads to a recession it’s gonna cost us all some money.

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5 minutes ago, jzk said:

When did free trade become "left?" 

You gotta hand it to Trump for converting all the lefties into free traders.  

It isn't costing me any money.  It is costing you money.

Actually, thinkers on the left have promoted fair wages and environmental policies as very important parts of trade.

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1 minute ago, Navig8tor said:

If Donnie’s tariff war leads to a recession it’s gonna cost us all some money.

Its already costing us money.  There is no case to be made for these tariffs.  

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Just now, hasher said:

Actually, thinkers on the left have promoted fair wages and environmental policies as very important parts of trade.

"Fair wages" is what is driving this tariff bullshit.  As I said before, amazing how Trump has turned the lefties into free traders.

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Just now, jzk said:

"Fair wages" is what is driving this tariff bullshit.  As I said before, amazing how Trump has turned the lefties into free traders.

People who work should be paid a living wage.  Should we legalize child labor?

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9 minutes ago, hasher said:

People who work should be paid a living wage.  Should we legalize child labor?

People who work should be paid whatever their skills can command.  Children worked for all of history until capitalism made us rich enough that they no longer need to work.  Why do you want to destroy our civilization such that children will once again be forced to work?

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Just now, jzk said:

People who work should be paid whatever their skills can command.  Children worked for all of history until capitalism made us rich enough that they no longer need to work.  Why do you want to destroy our civilization such that children will once again be forced to work?

I have worked since I was 10, over 50 years.  My father provided the bed I slept in and the food on the table.  I bought my own boats and such.

I don't care to enslave other people to make my shoes.

I don't want their air to be less clean.  In Atlanta, I'd like our air to lose the ground level ozone.

Do you find that to be liberal?  I consider my views to be mainstream human. 

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1 minute ago, hasher said:

I have worked since I was 10, over 50 years.  My father provided the bed I slept in and the food on the table.  I bought my own boats and such.

I don't care to enslave other people to make my shoes.

I don't want their air to be less clean.  In Atlanta, I'd like our air to lose the ground level ozone.

Do you find that to be liberal?  I consider my views to be mainstream human. 

You were the victim of child labor?  Who were these criminals that committed such an atrocity?

I only want to buy shoes from people that voluntarily made them for me.  

I enjoy the US's clean air on a daily basis.  It seems that the more capitalism we have, the cleaner the air is.

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Just now, jzk said:

You were the victim of child labor?  Who were these criminals that committed such an atrocity?

I only want to buy shoes from people that voluntarily made them for me.  

I enjoy the US's clean air on a daily basis.  It seems that the more capitalism we have, the cleaner the air is.

I enjoyed my little paper route.  I enjoyed it when the grocery store hired me.  There is a reason for unions.  You are exhibit "A".

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1 minute ago, jzk said:

It seems that the more capitalism we have, the cleaner the air is.

No capitalism

1812650005_e79235f257_o.jpg

Capiltalism

001ec949c49014237ae334.jpg

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1 minute ago, random said:

No capitalism

1812650005_e79235f257_o.jpg

Capiltalism

001ec949c49014237ae334.jpg

Is it acceptable for me to pollute your air for my profit?

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No it's not.

But everything Jerkz lies about can be dis-proven on one or two images.

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10 minutes ago, jzk said:

You were the victim of child labor?  Who were these criminals that committed such an atrocity?

I only want to buy shoes from people that voluntarily made them for me.  

I enjoy the US's clean air on a daily basis.  It seems that the more capitalism we have, the cleaner the air is.

Right, because industry loves to clean the air and water out of the goodness of their hearts.

Honesty, you're secretly a Trotskyite intent on holding up the follies of Western Civilization to ridicule, aincha?

- DSK

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12 minutes ago, hasher said:

I enjoyed my little paper route.  I enjoyed it when the grocery store hired me.  There is a reason for unions.  You are exhibit "A".

You mean the evil grocery store is "exhibit A."  You probably even learned the value of work.  We must stop such atrocities.  

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10 minutes ago, hasher said:

Is it acceptable for me to pollute your air for my profit?

Are you talking about authoritarian China?

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4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Right, because industry loves to clean the air and water out of the goodness of their hearts.

Honesty, you're secretly a Trotskyite intent on holding up the follies of Western Civilization to ridicule, aincha?

- DSK

Sorry, dumbass, but when a society becomes wealthy enough, its citizens demand clean air.  You really are stupid.

When the wall came down in East Germany, which do you suppose was the cleaner society?  West or East?

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Just now, jzk said:

You mean the evil grocery store is "exhibit A."  You probably even learned the value of work.  We must stop such atrocities.  

There were laws about child labor.  I don't think we should import one item that isn't produced with basic human rights.

I am sorry you are clueless or just choose to obfuscate. 

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3 minutes ago, jzk said:
8 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Right, because industry loves to clean the air and water out of the goodness of their hearts.

Honesty, you're secretly a Trotskyite intent on holding up the follies of Western Civilization to ridicule, aincha?

 

Sorry, dumbass, but when a society becomes wealthy enough, its citizens demand clean air.  You really are stupid.

When the wall came down in East Germany, which do you suppose was the cleaner society?  West or East?

 

I'm not stupid enough to get the concept of "capitalism" confused with the concept of "democracy" as you have.

- DSK

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15 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

I'm not stupid enough to get the concept of "capitalism" confused with the concept of "democracy" as you have.

- DSK

Apparently, you are.  If you want a clean, industrialized economy, capitalism is your only choice.  See USSR and China.

If you want to go back to tribal subsistence living where the average age is 35 like Randipshit does, then, of course, you will have a clean environment.  But you will be too dead to enjoy it.

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3 minutes ago, jzk said:
19 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I'm not stupid enough to get the concept of "capitalism" confused with the concept of "democracy" as you have.

 

Apparently, you are.  If you want a clean, industrialized economy, capitalism is your only choice.  See USSR and China.

 

Uh huh. Let's see, when "the people demand (something)" and the system.... call it whatever you like, "government" seems a good catch-all.... gives it to them: is that "capitalism" or is it "democracy"?

Take your time, think it over. You can even google (or duckduckgo) it, consider this an open-book test.

- DSK

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4 minutes ago, jzk said:

Apparently, you are.  If you want a clean, industrialized economy, capitalism is your only choice.  See USSR and China.

If you want to go back to tribal subsistence living where the average age is 35 like Randipshit does, then, of course, you will have a clean environment.  But you will be too dead to enjoy it.

When we demand a clean environment, it is not a knock at the heart of private property.  Nor does it threaten the ability of property owners to own and produce wealth.  Get out of the hermit you are living in.

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4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Uh huh. Let's see, when "the people demand (something)" and the system.... call it whatever you like, "government" seems a good catch-all.... gives it to them: is that "capitalism" or is it "democracy"?

Take your time, think it over. You can even google (or duckduckgo) it, consider this an open-book test.

- DSK

In order to have a clean industrial economy, it must first be wealthy.  Same for all the other shit you think a "democracy" can just bestow on the people like healthcare and college.  First you need the wealth.  That comes from capitalism.

Yeah, hard for your pea brain to comprehend, I get it.

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4 minutes ago, hasher said:

When we demand a clean environment, it is not a knock at the heart of private property.  Nor does it threaten the ability of property owners to own and produce wealth.  Get out of the hermit you are living in.

Demanding a clean environment is good and maintaining such is a proper governmental function.  I have never said otherwise.  

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2 minutes ago, jzk said:

Demanding a clean environment is good and maintaining such is a proper governmental function.  I have never said otherwise.  

Health is something which we enjoy when we have it.  Once it is gone, it is hard to get back.

My point was your health is as important as mine.  When I say "your" it is not singular.

I don't want to wear a tea shirt made in bad conditions.  When I delivered papers, stocked shelves and checked out groceries, I was not living in bad conditions.  Have some understanding and even empathy.

 

 

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Dude, that is like stating you can't have a clean house until you can afford a maid.

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On 8/24/2019 at 6:41 PM, cmilliken said:

Like all wars, this one has been brewing for a long time and we're now pretty much fully engaged.

The Chinese have two more major offensives they can deploy.  The first is the Rare Earth card.  The second is an actual war.  Look for some sort of special legislation indemnifying Mountain Pass, Nevada and putting it under DOE, similar to Hanford, although the true 'Trump' card would be to hand it over to the pentagon which he would likely? be able to do with executive order as an issue of national security.  Rare earths aren't rare - processing them is messy and the western world doesn't like messy so we let the Chinese do it, just like France lets Russia reprocess nuclear waste.  But there's a MASSIVE canyon between 'we can't', and 'don't want too' - we just don't want too.  The Chinese use the process the US developed to refine the stuff.

An "actual" war would most likely be either be a kerfuffle over the South China Sea or an attempt to close off the Taiwan straight or something similar.  I actually expect that to come sometime in the next 24 months.

The bond dump isn't real IMHO.  No one believes the Yuan.  it's not a senior currency for good reason.  The yuan kind of acts like one because there's a trillion dollar reserve of 10-years backing it and because we're still playing nice.  No reserve, no more illusion.  We already know what happens when the shit really hits the fan and NO ONE fled to the Yuan for safety.  NO ONE - ESPECIALLY the Chinese - believe in their currency.  That's why there's a 'two price' system for yaun - just like the Ruble and every other 'sort of' currency - and so much of it is laundered into foreign capitals.  The Yuan Is swimming naked and is exposed badly whenever the tide goes out.

I think the Chinese misread Trump's delay and his goal.  Frankly, I expect to see a 100% tariff on all Chinese goods by election time next year and a FRANTIC effort by Malaysia, Taiwan, So. Korea, and most importantly, India to fill the void.

India is really the wild card in this.  If they can get their shit together fast enough, this is a HUGE win for them.  I'd actually like to see one of the African countries step up and fill the void but I don't think they're  ready yet.  

 

Re rare earths processing- there is one Australian company, Lynas Corp, that processes the rare earths mined from their Mt Weld mine in Western Australia that is located near Kuantan in Malaysia. 

I suspect the Chinese have been behind a campaign to close it down but thankfully their efforts have come to nothing so far. I've held shares in the company for many years and boy has it been a wild ride due to the geopolitics 

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Greenland is the answer apparently. 

Produce more CO2 by making shit and melt the glaciers to get the rare earths to make more shit that we don't need to impress people we don't like.

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1 hour ago, jzk said:

Apparently, you are.  If you want a clean, industrialized economy, capitalism is your only choice.  See USSR and China.

 

And exactly what country pray tell has a  clean industrialized economy? 

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this should be good ........................

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2 hours ago, jzk said:

Demanding a clean environment is good and maintaining such is a proper governmental function.  I have never said otherwise.  

And all capitalist governments do what the people want?

I think the word you're looking for is "democracy"

But then, it was right under your nose all along, the problem might be that you're too stupid to recognize it

- DSK

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2 hours ago, jzk said:

In order to have a clean industrial economy, it must first be wealthy.  Same for all the other shit you think a "democracy" can just bestow on the people like healthcare and college.  First you need the wealth.  That comes from capitalism.

Yeah, hard for your pea brain to comprehend, I get it.

Wealth comes from capitalism? Maybe a read of Adam Smith would show you otherwise.  Wealth comes from surplus.  You can be a Hutterite and be wealthy.

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3 minutes ago, Laker said:

Wealth comes from surplus. 

indeed

an abundance of 

a plentiful supply of 

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34 minutes ago, Laker said:

Wealth comes from capitalism? Maybe a read of Adam Smith would show you otherwise.  Wealth comes from surplus.  You can be a Hutterite and be wealthy.

Wealth comes from specialization and free trade.  

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35 minutes ago, jzk said:

Wealth comes from specialization and free trade.  

This is what specialisation looks like

4b8fa70c3b20166d0377186e28d68bbb5205e26e

And below is what the wealth it creates looks like, for those not specialising ... just owning ...

Asinapeople.jpg

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On 8/24/2019 at 3:41 AM, cmilliken said:

India is really the wild card in this.  If they can get their shit together fast enough

Has India ever got their shit together fast on anything?

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10 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Has India ever got their shit together fast on anything?

they outsourced the fuck out of some services from the US damn quick, does that count?

one of the amusing things about India is part of the reason it's so sclerotic is the extreme rights of property owners, a legacy of post-colonial reactionaryism.

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And how well has that worked for you when you call to a call center and a dude with an Indian accent tries to sort out your DSL line?

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45 minutes ago, Zonker said:

And how well has that worked for you when you call to a call center and a dude with an Indian accent tries to sort out your DSL line?

Depends. Cree, Ojibway, one of the Salish languages, I'm cool with.

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20 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Depends. Cree, Ojibway, one of the Salish languages, I'm cool with.

Ohh deary deary me :D

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2 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:
2 hours ago, Zonker said:

Has India ever got their shit together fast on anything?

they outsourced the fuck out of some services from the US damn quick, does that count?

one of the amusing things about India is part of the reason it's so sclerotic is the extreme rights of property owners, a legacy of post-colonial reactionaryism.

Dude you literally lurk and wait for certain other people to post comments like this just to scream racist at them.  

Some of our most outspoken 'good guy' posters are on the same level of hippocracy as the posters they're here to tangle with. 

Nothing personal and it's not about which side I'm on, I'm just a fan of consistency. 

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Reuters: China willing to resolve trade dispute with U.S. via dialogue.

Hopeless. Trump don’t dialogue. Trump rarely does even complete sentences. Perhaps they try adoring love letters, but not dialogue. Surely in chinese that is some kind of joke.

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Many of my clients (Investment Banks) have outsourced work to India. It has not been a pleasant experience.

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5 hours ago, El Boracho said:

Reuters: China willing to resolve trade dispute with U.S. via dialogue.

Hopeless. Trump don’t dialogue. Trump rarely does even complete sentences. Perhaps they try adoring love letters, but not dialogue. Surely in chinese that is some kind of joke.

If they do, President Trump will be humiliated through that "d" word.  It will be reported around the world how China bested him.

Then, President Trump will proclaim he "won".  And, the Faithful will sing his praises.  Fox may, or may not, follow suit.

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5 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Dude you literally lurk and wait for certain other people to post comments like this just to scream racist at them.  

Some of our most outspoken 'good guy' posters are on the same level of hippocracy as the posters they're here to tangle with. 

Nothing personal and it's not about which side I'm on, I'm just a fan of consistency. 

Let's not play mind-reader, eh? Especially when plagued by that "hobgoblin of little minds"

I tend to prefer consistency myself but try to remember it's not universally a virtue..... except for oatmeal of course

- DSK

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23 minutes ago, Gangbusters said:

Many of my clients (Investment Banks) have outsourced work to India. It has not been a pleasant experience.

Banks are always cheap bastards when it comes to the dirty work of IT. They all thought they’d get a bargain with lower labor rates. What they didn’t plan on was the death by change-order.

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6 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

I'm just a fan of consistency. 

No matter which ID you are using....

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7 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Dude you literally lurk and wait for certain other people to post comments like this just to scream racist at them.  

Some of our most outspoken 'good guy' posters are on the same level of hippocracy as the posters they're here to tangle with. 

Nothing personal and it's not about which side I'm on, I'm just a fan of consistency. 

Hippocracy- the rule of horses.  Interesting concept.

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11 minutes ago, Laker said:

Hippocracy- the rule of horses.  Interesting concept.

I thought "Hippocracy" was rule by fat people.

- DSK

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Good article from the NYT.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/26/opinion/trump-china-tariffs.html

 

Now imagine yourself as a business leader trying to make decisions amid this Trumpian chaos.

The truth is that protectionism gets something of an excessively bad rap. Tariffs are taxes on consumers, and they tend to make the economy poorer and less efficient. But even high tariffs don’t necessarily hurt employment, as long they’re stable and predictable: the jobs lost in industries that either rely on imported inputs or depend on access to foreign markets can be offset by job gains in industries that compete with imports.

History is, in fact, full of examples of economies that combined high tariffs with more or less full employment: America in the 1920s, Britain in the 1950s and more.

But unstable, unpredictable trade policy is very different. If your business depends on a smoothly functioning global economy, Trump’s tantrums suggest that you should postpone your investment plans; after all, you may be about to lose access to your export markets, your supply chain or both. It’s also, though, not a good time to invest in import-competing businesses; for all you know, Trump will eventually back down on his threats. So everything gets put on hold — and the economy suffers.

 

One question you might ask is why Trumpian trade uncertainty is looming so much larger now than it did during the administration’s first two years. Part of the answer, I think, is that until fairly recently most analysts expected the U.S.-China trade conflict to be resolved with minimal disruption. You may recall that after denouncing Nafta as the worst trade deal ever made, Trump essentially surrendered and declared victory, settling for a new deal almost indistinguishable from the old one. Most economic newsletters I get predicted a similar outcome for the U.S. and China.

At the same time, the U.S. economy is slowing as the brief sugar high from the 2017 tax cut wears off. Another leader might engage in some self-reflection. Trump being Trump, he’s blaming others and lashing out. He has declared both Jerome Powell, chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, and Xi Jinping, China’s leader, enemies. As it turns out, however, there’s nothing much he can do to bully the Fed, but the quirks of U.S. trade law do allow him to slap new tariffs on China.

Of course, Trump’s trade belligerence is itself contributing to the economic slowdown. So there’s an obvious possibility for a vicious circle. The economy weakens; a flailing Trump lashes out at China, and possibly others (Europe may be next); this further weakens the economy; and so on.

At that point you might expect an intervention from the grown-ups in the room — but there aren’t any. In any other administration Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, a.k.a. the Lego Batman guy, would be considered a ridiculous figure; these days, however, he’s as close as we get to a voice of economic rationality. But whenever he tries to talk sense, as he apparently did over the issue of Chinese currency manipulation, he gets overruled.

Protectionism is bad; erratic protectionism, imposed by an unstable leader with an insecure ego, is worse. But that’s what we’ll have as long as Trump remains in office.

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