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search in the forum or on google directly "29er sailinganarchy forums"; there have been some nice discussion in the years about the 29er, with pretty informed people.

I still believe, after few years, that the 29er is the besr small boat out there (for people in the right weight range of course). have fun!

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18 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

Just started in 29ers and am training for midwinters West in a few weeks.  Any tips?

Ping Mustang_1 he's the resident 29er guru, IIRC

I have sailed them but I'm a fat old grump and would not presume to advise anybody who was going to get serious...... other than to say, read Frank Bethwaite's High Performance Sailing.

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Ping Mustang_1 he's the resident 29er guru, IIRC

I have sailed them but I'm a fat old grump and would not presume to advise anybody who was going to get serious...... other than to say, read Frank Bethwaite's High Performance Sailing.

FB- Doug

@mustang__1 

I’ve read that more times than I can count, I can’t claim to understand it all though.  Very good book though 

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yayy I'm famous! 

There used to be a "coaches" manual, that's a good place to start for a lot of things. The only thing in there i never liked/played with was the coins/washers under the mast step trick... Did it a few times but never really loved the way the boat felt. Also lots of good threads on this site. 

So the four modes... under powered, fully powered (transition to planing), over powered (planing), survival (foiling). Written from the perspective of the crew. 

under powered:

Vang off, weight forward, memory says middle middle on the jib but maybe inside middle. Depends how choppy it is. Keep about half the bow in the water - but don't take a drop into the kite bag. windward chine just out of the water. As you get closer and closer to standing all the way on the wing, you can sheet progressively harder. In flat water and consistent breeze, it's really amazing how much you can over sheet the everliving shit out of the main while sailing perfectly flat. But as soon as you fall off the speed cliff you need to ease it out, ease the jib, maybe put some weight back on the leeward chine so you have something to flatten on to, and then start over, You may need the bridle lowered a little bit. I loved these conditions. Downwind - just keep it moving and roll enough to pop the battens on the gybes. I want to say 18units on the new loos gauge. Watch that forestay flop if the breeze comes up :D 

Fully powered 

This is tough. It's that crossover between do we plane or not? While in displacement mode you can be somewhat aggressive with kinetics upwind - it was only in my last year or two of sailing the boat that i realized how positively it can respond. If you need to twerk over some chop just ease the sails a little bit so the sails have some give/response. In flat water you can try top/inside, or just go middle middle. Can also try middle top. As you start to have to let the main out you can start to think about planing. Sometimes all it takes is a little ease on both sails, a little should drop, step back and let it ride. Tough for the driver to find a good median spot on the rail. As you fall off the speed cliff just bring everything back in, step forward to get the ass out of the water, and come back to a pinchy mode until the next gust. More vang. Forestay somewhere around 21 (hole #6  (yours will be different) on my adjusters had a pretty obvious rust stain since that's where the pin lived most of the time... of course now you can use turnbuckles). Vang as desired. You may want a tad bit less for consistently planing. Same thing downwind, just be alert for puffs to transition to planing or head low for displacement. Also start bringing the board up a little bit as you approach overpowered. 

Overpowered

Consistently planing, jib middle middle, middle outside if its choppy. Remember not to over ease the sails. If you over ease the jib, you'll force an overease in the main, and you'll get into big trim oscillations. If the main is going through miles of sheet (and it's not the driver's fault with the jib.... or their driving), you are under vanged. Just keep the boat moving fast. Occasional shoulder pops over big waves but focus on being smooth. Bring the board up a good bit. Be alert for boats to leeward coming out of the top mark/offset - for them it's a good chance to make an aggressive luff to try and either flip you or at least cock you up a bit. Forstay somewhere around 24. 

survival 

WEEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeEEEEe. Jib outside middle, i've also played with taking the pins right out and going to the edge of the track. Board up a good bit. Depending who you're racing, sometimes staying upright is all it takes to make it into he top 5%. Crank the downhaul. Crank the vang. Alternatively, for real survival, maybe vang mostly off... but try cranking it first. Downwind, keep it all stable. Hoist, choke it in, get on the wire, feed the power. Don;t stand right over the halyard or douse line blocks when hoisting or dousing, you'll need to stand back a good bit. Makes it awkward, but less awkward than swimming. Gybes, i had little success with chicken gybing (not gybing the kite till i was on the new trap). I would do regular gybes. Just don't let the kite blow in front of the boat. So, step-step off the rail and into the middle of the boat, while ripping the old sheet behind your back to bring it as far back as you can, then with your front hand grab the new kite sheet at the block and rip it through as you cross the boat and step out on the trap. Driver needs to drive under the crew, and get the main over forecefully by just ripping the boom over. Enough vang downwind to keep the main under control - particularly for the gybes... but don't round the top mark with the vang cranked all the way - good way to bend the mast or break something. Downhaul can be right off downwind. Forstay somewhere around 24-26, was told never go over 27., 

 

General notes: put mclube and sunscreen on the vang track - especially in light air. Nice goopy slippery mess for it to slide on. Be careful not to get out sync with the main, jib, and driving. Most of what i wrote for survival gybing also applies to overpowered gybing but i don't feel like retyping it. Hoisting should be somewhere around 3-4 pulls on the kitehalyard - don't hoist it like a squirrel chewing an acorn. Don't over sheet the jib downwind - i've had coaches disagree with me but i would prefer a luffing jib to an overtrimmed jib. I'm trying to think if i've ever sail so deep that the boom would be more than 1ft beyond the transom, and i don't think it ever would be.... 

 

Edit: it's been about 4 years since i last sailed a 29er.... and i miss them. One of the greatest 2 person boats for <300lbs ever made, i think. If an old people's class ever gets going (and i lived someplace other than philly....) i would definitely get back. I never took a 420, aside from when i was 14, to just go out and sail around... The 29er i took out just blast around the bay until i was 23 or 24, it never got old or boring to me. Granted even now as a fatass i only weigh 135lbs but that's besides the point... They're great boats. .....in more than 4kts. 

 

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Just some general tips I have from the last 2 years of 29er sailing:

Keep the boat flat, it's important in most dinghys but it's extremely important for 29ers, the fastest guys are always the flattest in all conditions.

Also if you're the skipper, hike your ass off once you reach "fully powered" mode, sounds obvious but, a lot of skippers don't hike at all and you can carry a lot of power this way.

If it's breeze on don't be afraid to de-power the sail, the 29er responds well to lots of vang and cunno. If things start to get really fresh (main being eased too far out), start to take vang off (not too much) and start to lift the centreboard up a couple of inches to a foot. 

Unless you're an extremely light team mast wedges are a must.

Make sure the skipper is dynamic with his/her steering, the 29er is a fast boat, but to sail as fast as possible you need to be very good at changing from low/high/vmg modes depending on the situation and your current speed. 

Going along with most of these points, this boat rewards good team communication, make sure there's a lot of talking about if you're stalled or powered up. what is coming ahead on the course, when maneouvers will be performed etc. 

Good luck! If you have any questions feel free to ask!

 

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PULL THE MAIN HALYARD UP ALLLLLLLLL THE WAY

seriously though, if you miss 1 cm (for us who use sensible units of measurement) you will kill any shape in your sail

get like a meter of dyneema on one of the mast saddles and get a fat purchase and crank the shit out of it then lots of half hitches

much easier than the little hooks

also, make sure your kite halyard is running with good blocks and if it is inside the mast, make sure that there is no twists, i couldn't be bothered so i went externally run and it was a whole lot easier.

tiny little things just make the boat a whole lot easier to sail and do not cost much

a well functioning, old boat is better than a new boat with a shit setup

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7 minutes ago, inebriated said:

PULL THE MAIN HALYARD UP ALLLLLLLLL THE WAY

seriously though, if you miss 1 cm (for us who use sensible units of measurement) you will kill any shape in your sail

get like a meter of dyneema on one of the mast saddles and get a fat purchase and crank the shit out of it then lots of half hitches

much easier than the little hooks

also, make sure your kite halyard is running with good blocks and if it is inside the mast, make sure that there is no twists, i couldn't be bothered so i went externally run and it was a whole lot easier.

tiny little things just make the boat a whole lot easier to sail and do not cost much

a well functioning, old boat is better than a new boat with a shit setup

i never had the prettiest boat (shit, the last time i raced it, it was old enough to drive itself there) but i tried damn hard to have everything on it perfect - perfect splices, good blocks, etc. By mast saddle do you mean the eye straps at the bottom of the mast? I used to hook the downhual to one of the saddles, and the other downhual hook to the mainhalyard to crank it on, then slip it onto the hook. Kind of a PITA, but it worked and i didn't need to worry about anything slipping. 

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I am skippering, and my crew is also new to 29ers, but one of the most adaptable sailors I’ve ever sailed with.  We’ve already sailed one regatta (SCYRA Midwinters) and got last in every race.  The first day was the second time we had sailed in 8+ kn of wind, and the four hours on the water doubled our time in the boat. It’s not that we didn’t practice for it, just that we found out that we could sail it only a little bit before.

 

Anyway, I feel like we sail twice as fast each practice, and I’m starting to look at little things.  I’d like to crew it a bit, get a feel for what my crew is doing (which is a lot, I feel useless on light air upwinds, even though I’m playing the jib). I’m a very active helmsman, especially on the downwinds.  Not sure if it’s fast, I move a lot but I’m not jerking the tiller.  Any tips for finding VMG?  At what point is it good to bring the bow up and plane?

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17 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

i never had the prettiest boat (shit, the last time i raced it, it was old enough to drive itself there) but i tried damn hard to have everything on it perfect - perfect splices, good blocks, etc. By mast saddle do you mean the eye straps at the bottom of the mast? I used to hook the downhual to one of the saddles, and the other downhual hook to the mainhalyard to crank it on, then slip it onto the hook. Kind of a PITA, but it worked and i didn't need to worry about anything slipping. 

yeah, the eyes at the bottom, i geuss both ways work alright

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Mustang Sally, Can 2476 and inebriated (that's original), can I copy this and put it on Bethwaite360, please.   Got some Chinese that would love to get some base settings.

Give me your real names and happy to credit you also if you wish!

           jb

 

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It's been an embarrassingly long time since I sailed 29er but aren't mast wedges a cardinal sin @Can2476?  For someone who just got in the class there are probably a hundred things more important than doing something which could piss off fellow competitors.


In most domestic fleets you can get top third with just a playbook of consistent manoeuvres: Tack, gybe, hoist, drop, acceleration, bear away, head up, 360, gybe set, gybe drop. When starting out, practice, practice, practice your boat handling. It can be tempting when moving into a faster class to just blast around each time you sail. But be strict with yourselves and get those manoeuvres down! 


UK 29er Class on YouTube has some decent videos UK 29er YouTube channel 
Steve Irish a UK coach has some too: Steve Irish 29er Playlist
There's loads of others too. Get yourself a cheap action cam and mount it off the back of boom for best view of manoeuvres and really analyse what your doing compared to what you see online. 


Sail the boat flat. So flat it feels heeled to windward (except when very light). 


Once you've got manoeuvres down then next step, and biggest difference from junior boats is the range of upwind modes available. 
29er always felt like it had a good range of acceptable upwind modes for pointing in 10-15 knots. The key though is that there is good communication between crew and helm about which mode you're aiming for. I'd see two mistakes would classically as a coach:
1)    Helm bearing away in the lull before the crew sheets back in. Result would be a boat progressively reaching further and further off the breeze. 
2)    Helm pointing up before the crew eases in the gusts, results in the boat staggering rather than accelerating. 

In both scenarios it's questionable whether the helm is reacting too quick, or the crew is too slow. Often it is a helm who isn't used to not having hold of the main, and they get twitchy and react too quick.  So communicate with each other, what mode do you want to sailing, and in the next lull / gust be clear as who is going to react and how. "Gust in in 5, big ease on main, keeping the bow down". "Lull in 10, get ready to close that leach back up" etc. 

For settings I'm probably well out of touch (last sailed on in 2005, and coached in 2010), but we used to go top-middle until crew if fully trapping. Then middle-middle, then middle-outer to keep the slot looking decent as the main went out.  When coaching the biggest mistake, I saw beginners doing was not sheeting the jib on enough, so forget sheeting angles until you have sheeted on an appropriate amount. Mark some calibration on the underside of your spreaders and sheet the jib to them, having the helm sit to leeward to check the slot. 

Kicker and downhaul just crank on as the boom starts going off centre. Not rocket science really. Once the main is turning inside out in the gusts then ease the kicker off a couple of inches. Ease them downwind, before the bear away. 
 

 

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Might be a good idea to get hold of the Saffers who totally dominated the USA worlds last year, they used a 2nd string chartered boat and won with 2 races to spare, complete domination.

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14 hours ago, JulianB said:

Mustang Sally, Can 2476 and inebriated (that's original), can I copy this and put it on Bethwaite360, please.   Got some Chinese that would love to get some base settings.

Give me your real names and happy to credit you also if you wish!

           jb

 

just don't credit me as mustang sally! i'll shoot you a PM with my name. 

16 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

I am skippering, and my crew is also new to 29ers, but one of the most adaptable sailors I’ve ever sailed with.  We’ve already sailed one regatta (SCYRA Midwinters) and got last in every race.  The first day was the second time we had sailed in 8+ kn of wind, and the four hours on the water doubled our time in the boat. It’s not that we didn’t practice for it, just that we found out that we could sail it only a little bit before.

 

Anyway, I feel like we sail twice as fast each practice, and I’m starting to look at little things.  I’d like to crew it a bit, get a feel for what my crew is doing (which is a lot, I feel useless on light air upwinds, even though I’m playing the jib). I’m a very active helmsman, especially on the downwinds.  Not sure if it’s fast, I move a lot but I’m not jerking the tiller.  Any tips for finding VMG?  At what point is it good to bring the bow up and plane?

trust me, the crew feels you moving... Your job in real light air is don't jerk the boat. If it's real squirrlely a lot of the crew's brain power is also tied up with not flailing around on the trap, so maybe try to be eyes out a bit more than you usually would (shit four years out of dinghies and i'm still a cynic....). You also need to think about how you position yourself so you can be ready to react to a puff, lull, or tack/gybe - it's tough when you're not sitting on the rail. Honestly, i don't know the answer there - talk to some of the better skippers in your area and see what they do. As for up and planing or down in VMG - it's a feel thing. It's not even a hard wind speed - it depends on your style, combined weight, and sea-state. But, in simple terms, if you can bring it up and plane, and you'rte not going upwind, it's probably the right move. Keep your eyes behind you, if other boats are starting to pop up, be ready for the puff and do the same... IF you're behind everyone, and everyone was planing and you are VMG - you're doing it wrong :P . If you were planing upwind you'll be planing downwind. If you were on the cusp of planing upwind.... hedge your bets and experiment... 

 

Don't be too static on the jib, especially upwind. Watch the leach - unless the sail is shot to shit, the leach is very very responsive to small changes in trim - way more than an FJ jib (at least the ones i used... but i don't think it's possible to get a high aspect FJ jib...). It's easy to over play it, either too active or too much movement - but if you get doggy a small ease can do wonders to get your speed back up - then ratchet it and the main back in. The crew should be very dynamic on the rail fore and aft  in both choppy conditions and transition between planing and displacement. In displacement, like i said, you want the bow in, but step back a bit to avoid taking water over the bow. In transition, when you and the skipper are in sync, a puff will hit, the main will go out a few inches, the jib will go out an inch or two, the crew will step back, the skipper will move their shoulders back, and if it was all done right (right amount of wind, too), you'll plane. Downwind, when you're VMG in say 8kts,  crew is trapping off the grab rail maybe cockpit... Gust hits, crew steps out onto the rail, keeps shoulders low, and the skipper maybe comes up a bit or frankly, maybe doesn't. Depends how sharp the puffs are, how big, etc. Downwind is very...... non scientific - at least for me. The only constant is don't be the last one in a pack of boats to gybe. 

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13 hours ago, mozzy656 said:

It's been an embarrassingly long time since I sailed 29er but aren't mast wedges a cardinal sin @Can2476?  For someone who just got in the class there are probably a hundred things more important than doing something which could piss off fellow competitors.


 

wedging is legal now so long as it is "permanent". Which i think was also the ruling in 2010 or so, but has become more official? Dunno, i've been out since 2014 and never liked how the boat felt anyway. At any rate, haven't glanced at the class rules in a while. 

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Ha, well I first sailed the boat in 03 and stopped in 05 except a couple of events in 07, coaching a little after that; so I'm definitely well out of date. But I vividly remember a coach telling us how at a worlds (2001 Kingston?) it had been a issue. 

 

Anyway, I think for someone just getting in to the class, I'd ignore all the technical settings stuff and just focus on manoeuvres and then maybe changing modes upwind. Get the basics right first then look at the details once you're knocking on the door of gold fleet. 

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just pm'd you @JulianB

one quick question

why did the 29er sails change materials from the less transparent cloth to the current one?

i remember i used to have an old jib made of the old stuff, the clips were all original and never snapped like the current ones and the sail itself lasted as long as our racing sail to the bin, granted that it was already pretty old when we got it and the racing jib was really near new

i knew a few guys with the main made of the old stuff and had stories about being flung onto it and it holding up fine, i never saw any patches on them either which was impressive considering their age.

was the old material more expensive, discontinued or just not as fast?

cheers

always an privilege to ask someone like you questions

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On 3/7/2018 at 4:16 AM, mozzy656 said:

It's been an embarrassingly long time since I sailed 29er but aren't mast wedges a cardinal sin @Can2476?  For someone who just got in the class there are probably a hundred things more important than doing something which could piss off fellow competitors.

In North America basically every competitive boat is running wedges. Adding a wedge stiffens the lower mast and a stiffer mast = more power.  Also we've found that adding wedges allows you to have a more desirable sail shape. The reason I suggested the wedges are that it's a quick and simple way to get a little more power out of the boat and if you're going to do it eventually you might as well add it in early so that you get used to it. 

On 3/7/2018 at 1:50 AM, Connor.kainalu said:

Any tips for finding VMG?  At what point is it good to bring the bow up and plane?

Basically you always want to be planning if possible because the speed differential between displacement and planning is so large so if you feel like you can start planning just go for it. 

As for finding VMG, i suggest doing a drill while sailing where you cycle through all the modes while going upwind. Start with an acceleration to get going, then once you're up to speed sail however you feel is VMG for 30sec-1min, then go high mode for the same amount of time, then back to VMG, then low mode, then back to VMG... This helps you get a feel for the different modes in the 29er and helps you realize when you're going too high and stalling off and going too low and sailing too much distance. 

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4 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Anyway, I think for someone just getting in to the class, I'd ignore all the technical settings stuff and just focus on manoeuvres and then maybe changing modes upwind. Get the basics right first then look at the details once you're knocking on the door of gold fleet. 

I disagree with this approach to learning the boat. While I agree, focusing on manoeuvres and the basics is what you should be doing first,  not devoting time to discovering the fast settings and worrying about your tuning is wrong. You'll never be able to knock on the door of gold fleet without the right set ups and you'll never know if your manoeuvres and boat speed are fast if you are going slower than everyone else because your sail set-up is wrong. It's better to learn and incorporate tuning and rig set-up early in my opinion. 

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4 minutes ago, Can2476 said:

In North America basically every competitive boat is running wedges.

I wonder why they decided to allow it? Do you think it adds anything to sailing? 

IMO things like this are annoying in SMOD classes. The 29er ideal is where you can take a boat straight from the dealer and go win events. I know very few manufactures achieve this, but allowing such modifications in the class rules just takes the class further away from that ideal. In a couple of years when everyone has cottoned on, everyone will have them worldwide, there will no no advantage, just everyone will be spending that little bit more time doing boat prep: better to just agree that no-one can do it. 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I wonder why they decided to allow it? Do you think it adds anything to sailing? 

IMO things like this are annoying in SMOD classes. The 29er ideal is where you can take a boat straight from the dealer and go win events. I know very few manufactures achieve this, but allowing such modifications in the class rules just takes the class further away from that ideal. In a couple of years when everyone has cottoned on, everyone will have them worldwide, there will no no advantage, just everyone will be spending that little bit more time doing boat prep: better to just agree that no-one can do it. 

 

 

On the XX the mast plug had a screw in the front that effectively acted as the wedge. According to Ian Bruce, the objective with the screw on the XX was to allow for proper mast compression between all the boats since the mast steps are all just a wee bit different. In effect, his advice was to use it as a set it and forget it rather than a tuning thing. At any rate, my assumption is the allowance of wedges in the 29er is the same thing - to account for variations in the leveleness of the plane the mast step sits on. Was always surprised an XX style step was never introduced for the 29er - i think the plug, as it stands now, is only around $100? Or was that 10 years ago when i had to replace a broken one.... (and kept getting freaking drain plugs! thanks PS2000 :rolleyes: ...they did eventually get me the mast plug though)

One thing to keep in mind if you're going to play with the mast step wedging is that the step itself can get old and start flaring out (effectively de-wedging) - they're relatively cheap to replace and the new shiny anodizing looks good, too... 

As for openess of the rules, like i said - if there are variations in the build this is a good solution to even it out. The attempt at making the rules have some sort of permanency to the wedge i think reinforced that notion. My biggest gripe with the 29er was the lack of turnbuckles - i was always afraid for my mast if i launched at 18units for 8kts of wind, not expecting the front to roll through or whatever - and now i'm watching the forestay flop all over the damn place downwind wondering how inverted my mast is... The year i stopped racing 29er's they made them legal. oh well. 

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35 minutes ago, Can2476 said:

You'll never be able to knock on the door of gold fleet without the right set ups and you'll never know if your manoeuvres and boat speed are fast if you are going slower than everyone else because your sail set-up is wrong. It's better to learn and incorporate tuning and rig set-up early in my opinion. 

Conversely you'll never know if you're fast if your spat out the back because you can't trigger, tack, gybe, drop or set efficiently. No point lining up on tuning runs with other boats looking at jib pin settings and wedges when the helm and crew aren't reacting to gusts and lulls cohesively. 

I'm not saying setup isn't important, but playing around with rake, rig tension, jib luff tension etc can be a focus after the winter and going in to your second year.  But the OP has just got the boat, done a handful of sails and came last in every race in a recent event. He's got a few weeks to his next event. My tip is; practice boat handling, communication and upwind modes.

Plus, plenty of people have made gold fleet with average settings, they've even won worlds. It's really not a massively tweeky boat. 

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On 3/5/2018 at 11:41 AM, Connor.kainalu said:

Just started in 29ers and am training for midwinters West in a few weeks.  Any tips?

...simply put,,just keep the boat under the sails!   Certainly there's many details in tuning, as discussed above,, but once that's all set,, youre on the water, and overpowered,,,, it's a matter of keeping the boat moving,,, it's important to sheet off in -anticipation- of puffs, not after they heal you,, the more bare skin you have, the more your body will develop the automatic gust response... at least don't cover your ears!  ;)

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27 minutes ago, couchsurfer said:

...simply put,,just keep the boat under the sails!   Certainly there's many details in tuning, as discussed above,, but once that's all set,, youre on the water, and overpowered,,,, it's a matter of keeping the boat moving,,, it's important to sheet off in -anticipation- of puffs, not after they heal you,, the more bare skin you have, the more your body will develop the automatic gust response... at least don't cover your ears!  ;)

don't forget the lulls! New crew's not used to having the mainsheet really struggle with that part... And also how much you have to kneel in - the 420 isn't as damming if you get lazy. That lack of stability and heavy mast can really do a number on you on the 29er. 

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1 hour ago, mustang__1 said:

don't forget the lulls! New crew's not used to having the mainsheet really struggle with that part... And also how much you have to kneel in - the 420 isn't as damming if you get lazy. That lack of stability and heavy mast can really do a number on you on the 29er. 

Any tips for moving inboard-outboard quickly? It seems we’re always practicing in that transition period 

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21 minutes ago, Connor.kainalu said:

Any tips for moving inboard-outboard quickly? It seems we’re always practicing in that transition period 

Trap as high as you can, make sure you load the rig early so it can be set with the crew weight hanging in the wire, nothing worse than getting a gust, crew weight is transferred to the trap wire, mast bends, leach opens, main depowers, crew moves in and unhooks, mast straightens, main powers up......you get the drift.

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1 hour ago, Connor.kainalu said:

Any tips for moving inboard-outboard quickly? It seems we’re always practicing in that transition period 

Cut your trap wires to minimal allowable length (go to a rigging shop, sometimes westmarine is the only option), then make either a laser hiking strap adjuster, or a finger trap adjuster (preferred by me) to adjust the height of the cleat adjuster. Set the adjuster for the adjuster as high as it'll go (nice neat splices go a long way here). As MajorTom said, trap high so it's easier to step down from the rail onto grabrail. The objective is to keep the weight on the wire, but the boat stable and flat (or windward chine just kissing the water). If its super light and you're trapping forward of the shrouds and moving between trapping off the mast butt and the rail...... well, one of the best nights sleep i ever got was after a 5-8kt day - no adrenaline to work out of my body compared to survival days.... One more note, as if you're trapping forward of the shrouds it might make more sense to have the driver do the main. I always waffled back and forth on that one. 

edit: It's not as much about moving in quickly as it is about being smooth and predicting the next few seconds. Like i said, the mast is heavy and you need to keep it from moving around. You also need to find middle grounds. Maybe the skipper needs to hike a little more so the crew can trap a little higher. Maybe the crew can trap higher but they're style sucks and they're not pressing their shoulders into the harness to take full advantage of their height and righting moment and instead are raising and lowering themselves, leading to them being too low to comfortably move in for a lull. 

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1 hour ago, mustang__1 said:

Cut your trap wires to minimal allowable length (go to a rigging shop, sometimes westmarine is the only option), then make either a laser hiking strap adjuster, or a finger trap adjuster (preferred by me) to adjust the height of the cleat adjuster. Set the adjuster for the adjuster as high as it'll go (nice neat splices go a long way here). As MajorTom said, trap high so it's easier to step down from the rail onto grabrail. The objective is to keep the weight on the wire, but the boat stable and flat (or windward chine just kissing the water). If its super light and you're trapping forward of the shrouds and moving between trapping off the mast butt and the rail...... well, one of the best nights sleep i ever got was after a 5-8kt day - no adrenaline to work out of my body compared to survival days.... One more note, as if you're trapping forward of the shrouds it might make more sense to have the driver do the main. I always waffled back and forth on that one. 

edit: It's not as much about moving in quickly as it is about being smooth and predicting the next few seconds. Like i said, the mast is heavy and you need to keep it from moving around. You also need to find middle grounds. Maybe the skipper needs to hike a little more so the crew can trap a little higher. Maybe the crew can trap higher but they're style sucks and they're not pressing their shoulders into the harness to take full advantage of their height and righting moment and instead are raising and lowering themselves, leading to them being too low to comfortably move in for a lull. 

I meant for the skipper moving in and out. It’s super awkward being on your butt and hopping onto the rail

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40 minutes ago, Connor.kainalu said:

I meant for the skipper moving in and out. It’s super awkward being on your butt and hopping onto the rail

...probably best the skipper stays butt to the rail, with lesser movement and maximum visibility,,,,

                                                         .............moving around, sheeting,, keeping balance,, that's what crews are for.  :)

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Thank's guys, got your PM's so will get my sister to do a messing of your ideas and it will be posted to Bethwaite360 plus the whole Chinese skiff community with your names immortalised.

Re the cloth, 2 reasons. 

 #1, I do a price check approximately every year on one of the 6 sails, (49er main, 49er jib, 49er spin, 29er main, 29er jib & 29er spinnaker).   If you go look at Bethwaite360 you will see some of that work.   The last one was the 29er main, purely because it was opportune, and Quantum came close but not close enough.     Some years (10-15 years) ago we did exactly the same thing, the existing supplier was North and they were simply outbid by Pryde/MacDiarmid.      Please also remember that we included a transition cost in there, so it included a figure for the hassle of transferring across, which is not inconsequential.

#2, Because something works in say the US, does not mean it will work in say Singapore.   (Singapore is tougher on boats than anywhere else I know, humidity and heat)  We recently had this with scuppers!   The MAA glue worked a treat in cold-moderate climates but quite literally rotted out in HK, northern Australia and southern LA.    So we now have the trench.      The North cloth is very likely perfect in the moderate climates but it de-laminates in the hotter ones, and that's exactly what it did and its probably the major reason we moved away from it WRT the 49er (and that was a sailors choice, led by the US) and subsequently in the 29er.   (also remember this was 10-15 years ago)

As an aside, again with the 29er, we presently have a push from the antipodes to go to a much heavier jib cloth and that's being resisted by the European's.    So we will end up with a compromise, reinforcing the leach of the jib and we will finally go to a zipper luff.     You won't see these for 6 months, it takes that long to make a change of this sort happen.   And this is a simple one.

                         Jb

              

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

I meant for the skipper moving in and out. It’s super awkward being on your butt and hopping onto the rail

Again, you need to find a midpoint that makes both people mostly happy. My goal as crew was to not have to make the helmsman need to move in or out on the rail - but of course there can be big changes in wind that necessitate it. Compared to most boats at least your front hand is mostly free to help balance and stay smooth as you get up on the rail. What's your combined weight? Keep your feet tucked up under you, watch other skippers, etc., Sometimes you can kind of sit in the middle of the rail but that blows for more than a minute or two at a time. Sorry, i'm mostly a crew that could helm a 29er, but i was not a 29er helm. 

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49 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

Again, you need to find a midpoint that makes both people mostly happy. My goal as crew was to not have to make the helmsman need to move in or out on the rail - but of course there can be big changes in wind that necessitate it. Compared to most boats at least your front hand is mostly free to help balance and stay smooth as you get up on the rail. What's your combined weight? Keep your feet tucked up under you, watch other skippers, etc., Sometimes you can kind of sit in the middle of the rail but that blows for more than a minute or two at a time. Sorry, i'm mostly a crew that could helm a 29er, but i was not a 29er helm. 

Combined weight is ~250 lbs (113kg), and my crew is about ten-twenty pounds lighter 

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ah i was on that same track with the weight differential - but we were about about 15lbs heavier each  (speaking averages),. I remember when we were one of the lightweight boats the time i sailed at 270lbs combined... One regatta my helm was about 6'2, it looked like we were double trapped when he was fully hiked... - i'm 5'5 at best.. Anyway, same thing still applies, try to find middle grounds. Maybe you're on the rail and the crew traps off the bar. Maybe you sit in and the crew stands on the rail.Depends how big the puffs are and how low the lulls are. 

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At what point should the crew stop trapping off the bow?

 

How do I invert that ONE batten that just will not go?

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1 hour ago, Connor.kainalu said:

At what point should the crew stop trapping off the bow?

 

How do I invert that ONE batten that just will not go?

stop trapping off the bow when the skipper is consistently on the edge and pretty much hiking, the skipper will need to move in at the same time though

 

grab the boom block or the end of the mainsheet at the end of the boom about 30cm or so from the boom

roll in and as you press with your crew give it a good whack in

also, wind the battens off .5 or 1 full turn when you get in

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2 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

At what point should the crew stop trapping off the bow?

 

How do I invert that ONE batten that just will not go?

Trapping off the bow:

When trapping in-front the crew angles forward. As the breeze come in, to increase their leverage they'll naturally need to move back to trapeze straighter and trapeze off a wider part of the boat. So just let the crew move back and out to balance the boat, and that should sort fore after trim pretty well too. 

Fine tune it for chop or flat water by the helm moving to the side first or after the crew moves back. i.e. if you're getting waves over the bow, have the helm stay on the rail and let the crew move back and out to knuckle. In flat water, get the helm out early and flat hiking before the crew moves back to knucke. 

Once fully trapezing keep the helm and crew close together, moving back to keep the bow kissing the waves. 

Top Battern

Forget pumping the main. In light winds that just rocks the boat and disturbs flow. Have the crew give the downhaul a sharp pull after the tack or gybe, that should pop it without the need to even pump the main (as long as you have some main tension on).  Either tug upwards on the cunningham where it runs along the thwart between the cleat and first turning block or pull directly down on the working block in the down-haul cascade. 

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Just now, Mozzy Sails said:

Trapping off the bow:

When trapping in-front the crew will swings forward. As the breeze come in, to increase their leverage, by trapezing straighter and trapping off a wider part of the boat they will have to move back.

So, let the crew move back to increase the leverage and this should keep trim good too. 

Fine tune it for chop or flat water by the helm moving to the side first or after the crew moves back. Just to stop wave drenching the shute. 

Once fully trapezing keep the helm and crew close together, moving back to keep the knuckle of bow kissing the waves. 

Top Battern

Forget pumping the main. In light winds that just rocks the boat and disturbs flow. Have the crew give the downhaul a sharp pull after the tack or gybe, that should pop it without the need to even pump the main (as long as you have some main tension on).  Either tug upwards on the cunningham where it runs along the thwart between the cleat and first turning block or pull directly down on the working block in the down-haul cascade. 

yeah, it's during the pump after a roll tack or jibe that it should be done was what i was talking about

the only issue i would have with pulling on the cunno so hard and fast is that it often doesn't release easily and you would probably have to get the crew to push the sail back up after it

i would definitely opt for just doing a pump, it should give some speed if it is done right and shouldn't be illegal seeing as it is to pop the main

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Yeah, I see no reason not to give the main a pump as you go through, but if it doesn't pop, then having your helm stood up shaking the boom is not fast. But, if the helm misses that opportunity, then best to get settled, focus on steering, and let the crew do the cunno trick. 

If it's light enough that the battens aren't popping, the crew probably isn't trapping, so they can just tug the cunno and even give it a push back up (although I never experienced that being  problem). 

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7 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

At what point should the crew stop trapping off the bow?

 

How do I invert that ONE batten that just will not go?

Either when the sea state is too choppy (Big regattas, lots of nanny coach boats, etc), then you end up trapping as far forward in the cockpit as you can get. Else, when the skipper is all the way on the rail. Again, weight placement is a fluid thing - in reallll light air you're looking to keep that big ass out of the water., As the breeze builds, starting trimming the bow up so the boat is more or less level in the water, just the knuckle of the bow in the water when the crew is full out on the trap and the skipper is at least hunched on the rail. Note, mozzy is referring to the bend in the rail as a knuckle, i refer to the bottom of the bow as the knuckle. I tend to prefer getting the crew out and on the trap before the skipper gets all the way on the rail - to me the boat is more stable with the crew out (and the skipper not needing to move around too much). 

 

As for the batten, it should pop on the flatten during a tack. IF it doesn't, your sheet might be too loose out of the tack; you might not be flattening hard enough; you might be flattening too early; the battens might be too tight. On the gybe, you need to physically grab the boom and give it a WHACK at the right time -  it should not be too sharp of a motion. Remember the parachute game when you were a kid? Thinking more of that kind of motion - something that'll get a good ripple moving up the main. If that fails, mozzy and inebriated have good tips. You can try bow stringing the cunningham or the vang to try and get it to pop rather than do an additional roll, you don't need to pull those strings from the cleat. 

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6 hours ago, inebriated said:

.........the only issue i would have with pulling on the cunno so hard and fast is that it often doesn't release easily and you would probably have to get the crew to push the sail back up after it ........

....I believe the vang works well for that task, no? 

...a pull on vang is usually enough, maybe a body bump., certainly no problem releasing it.  :mellow:

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2 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

I tend to prefer getting the crew out and on the trap before the skipper gets all the way on the rail - to me the boat is more stable with the crew out (and the skipper not needing to move around too much). 

Sorry, should have been more clear. The helm stays still as possible in either position. Holding the extension against the deck behind them to stop them 'wiggling' it. 

In flat water the helm would stay sat on side, enabling the crew to stay forward for longer. In chop the helm would stay on the rail, allowing the crew to come back earlier. But in both scenarios it is the crew who is doing the bulk of the moving for gusts and lulls, with the helm adopting a position for the prevailing conditions. 

Key is to speak to each other, count the gusts and lulls in and say who is going to react and how (just like up thread I was saying say who is going to react to gust with sheeting / steering when it's breezy). 

The OP asked up thread how the helm should sit so they can move quickly, and the answer correctly given is they shouldn't move quickly. If the helm is coming out or going it should be pre-planned, smooth and related to consistent change in pressure. 

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15 minutes ago, couchsurfer said:

....I believe the vang works well for that task, no? 

...a pull on vang is usually enough, maybe a body bump., certainly no problem releasing it.  :mellow:

Having a little vang on for the gybe can help as it stops the breeze from falling out the top of the sail when you pump. But once it's failed to pop in the 'pump', then cunno is what you need to pull. 

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 From 44 second you can see how the helm is staying in, still, allowing the crew back to the knuckle in the gunwale. You can see from the way the horizon is moving and spray over the bow it is choppy. 

Then below from the start (flat lake water) you can see the helm sat on the side and the crew still trapping forward (helm still moves around far too much, but you can see what 'm getting at).

 

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35 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Sorry, should have been more clear. The helm stays still as possible in either position. Holding the extension against the deck behind them to stop them 'wiggling' it. 

In flat water the helm would stay sat on side, enabling the crew to stay forward for longer. In chop the helm would stay on the rail, allowing the crew to come back earlier. But in both scenarios it is the crew who is doing the bulk of the moving for gusts and lulls, with the helm adopting a position for the prevailing conditions. 

Key is to speak to each other, count the gusts and lulls in and say who is going to react and how (just like up thread I was saying say who is going to react to gust with sheeting / steering when it's breezy). 

The OP asked up thread how the helm should sit so they can move quickly, and the answer correctly given is they shouldn't move quickly. If the helm is coming out or going it should be pre-planned, smooth and related to consistent change in pressure. 

yep. Agreed. The nice thing in light air is you can actually talk. That said, as you say, there should be a pre-race communication for delegation of duties for that race, game plan for tactics, and game plan for balancing the boat. I don't like to talk much during the race unless it's a "tack behind 354" "we're slow" "big chop" "layline is close" "123 is planing" etc. To me the helm should be able to see the puffs in the last few seconds to the boat and shouldn't need a countdown. 

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Re how far back, bit of this is being touched on in the "single handing Tasar" thread, but its more to do with heel.

My father used to talk about 4 modes.

Mode #1 is light air, you go nose down because you want to minimise wetted area, as that's the most important drag component at that POT,  and it also throws the rig fwd, makes it more vertical, which again is more efficient in light air.   Whether you heel the boat or not, also, is personal taste, but if the sails are filling, then up-right is lower drag.

Mode #2 is design wind, someone said when the skipper is fully up, and that's probably a good trigger point.    But be a bit like a surfer, the boat slows, you go fwd, maybe only 6" - 1ft, then as you accelerate, move back. and the boat should be straight up and down, as little heel as you can.   You can justify a little windward heel but 4° max.

Mode #3 is planning, this is an extension of #2, back about 2ft (behind the shroud) and the flatter you are, the faster you go.

Mode #4 is flat out planning, the reality is you can never get far enough aft, you can never get the bow high enough.   Just look at the 49er sailors the way they are "right down the back of the bus" 4 feet, all within 12-18", right aft.

Look and listen to the transom, if your too heeled, it will scream at you, if your too far aft, it will scream at you, nice clean transom wake, your probably doing OK.

 

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I’ve been watching the transom. It’s actually really useful to take a quick glance back to see if the little curl is in the wake from the chine to see your heel. I’ll probably have more questions after my next practice, but I’m at a high school regatta now 

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13 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

Alright. Any tips for the handoff of the spin so the crew can hook in?

That seemed to become a thing my last year or so in the boat. I always just took it out with me. If the top boats are doing it still/now, then i guess it is indeed faster.  I only did it if i was a little chicken winged up for some reason (like the trap adjuster blew off or was never raised prior to the last gybe and i need to raise the ring up, etc). We tried it a little bit and basically, the helmsman just needs to be ready to grab it as the crew is stepping out - you don't want to hang out sitting on your ass waiting for them to take it from you for a moment since the objective to is to hit the wire faster and smoother. As the crew is stepping out they'll need to hold the sheet low and aft so the helm can grab it. It probably only makes the most sense in moderate or more breeze. Personally i'm not a huge fan of it, but if its what seems to work the best then i guess it might be worth practicing. 

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Gybes: I only ever did it if I messed up my sheet work in the boat and had my sheet hand up over my head on the exit. The rest of the time I went out on the handle and used the sheet hand to guide the loop onto my hook. 

Watching a few videos it does look odd passing the sheet. A lot of the videos the sheet hand is right next to their hoop, so it looks like it would be easy for the crew just to hook themselves on. 

Tacks: I see a lot of videos the helm taking the sheet through tacks. We did a mix of both crew and helm taking it through. Pro's and cons to each. 

I think it's fine, but my only reservation would be that every-time you pass a sheet, you risk dropping it. I'd rather a crew just be able to sort themselves out. 

 

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1 hour ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Gybes: I only ever did it if I messed up my sheet work in the boat and had my sheet hand up over my head on the exit. The rest of the time I went out on the handle and used the sheet hand to guide the loop onto my hook. 

Watching a few videos it does look odd passing the sheet. A lot of the videos the sheet hand is right next to their hoop, so it looks like it would be easy for the crew just to hook themselves on. 

Tacks: I see a lot of videos the helm taking the sheet through tacks. We did a mix of both crew and helm taking it through. Pro's and cons to each. 

I think it's fine, but my only reservation would be that every-time you pass a sheet, you risk dropping it. I'd rather a crew just be able to sort themselves out. 

 

we always passed the sheet for the tacks. We practiced both ways for those "panic" shituations, but so long as everything was smooth we passed it off. Made it easier for me to hook in, and the helms liked it because they got to hold the mainsheet again.... in all seriousness, it helps them to have the sheet since they can kind of use it for balance, a little easier to keep tight, and better control/balance of the boat coming out of the tack. Only dropped it once in a race in six years of racing 29er's. Of course, we were doing really well that race, but it was a fast recovery. It was all fine until the rudder departed the lower pintle on a gybe on the next leg. Stupid fucking ringding. 

 

Oh, Connor, check the ringdings on your rudder pin - it should really be on top (pin from the bottom......mine was fused to the cassette), but if for whatever reason yours is on the bottom you really gotta keep an eye on it... 

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What about upwind jib trim? I play it a good deal, but I kinda feel like it’s a whole different deal with the race sails (practice jib has gone to shit)

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the leach will respond so much faster to much smaller trim inputs than your a trashed practice sail. The boat will accelerate better when puffs hit. I went like 4-5 years on the same race jib - eventually practice and race... when i finally replaced it and my kite i nearly shat myself. The kite was most surprising - when it popped full i actually stumbled back a couple steps - something i hadn;'t done since i first got in the boat. trim wise, just play around. If it looks right, the boat feels good, and you're pointing with other boats, its right. If one of those things isn't happening, play around. As i said before, just be careful not to over ease - especially when its windy, or you can get into oscillations with the crew trying to trim the main. 

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Where we live, it’s very gusty. My crew is light, and struggles a little bit on keeping the boat flat upwind. What should we do?

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32 minutes ago, Connor.kainalu said:

Where we live, it’s very gusty. My crew is light, and struggles a little bit on keeping the boat flat upwind. What should we do?

How much wind are we talking? 5-12, 8-18...? What modes, under powered to planing, fully powered to planing? Need to look ahead and predict whats going to happen - they're driving the boat as much as you are. If they're going through miles of sheet, you're either under vanged or over easing the jib sheet. Also trade positions a few times - it's always a good experience for both people. How you drive around the wind changes helps a lot too, obviously, like any other boat. Knowing the puffs are typically lefts or rights impacts how you drive the boat as the puff hits. And of course.... time in the boat is time in the boat is time in the boat. 

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4 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

How much wind are we talking? 5-12, 8-18...? What modes, under powered to planing, fully powered to planing? Need to look ahead and predict whats going to happen - they're driving the boat as much as you are. If they're going through miles of sheet, you're either under vanged or over easing the jib sheet. Also trade positions a few times - it's always a good experience for both people. How you drive around the wind changes helps a lot too, obviously, like any other boat. Knowing the puffs are typically lefts or rights impacts how you drive the boat as the puff hits. And of course.... time in the boat is time in the boat is time in the boat. 

Generally powered up, not planing upwind. It comes down to me moving out to help the Crew flatten the boat, and having to move in again in a few seconds.  I don’t think that that’s particularly fast.

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1 hour ago, Connor.kainalu said:

Generally powered up, not planing upwind. It comes down to me moving out to help the Crew flatten the boat, and having to move in again in a few seconds.  I don’t think that that’s particularly fast.

maybe split the difference and have them trap higher so you can sit on the rail more comfortable. They may need to kneel in more in the lulls to allow you to stay on the rail. It's all about finding a median so that you're both equally unhappy in those conditions where you're not planing, not always fully powered, and lulls that dip into definitely underpowered conditions. 

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We need help on leeward mark roundings. The crew is finishing up the douse, and we heel over hard to leeward when we turn up. How do we stop this?

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On 18/03/2018 at 5:24 AM, Connor.kainalu said:

We need help on leeward mark roundings. The crew is finishing up the douse, and we heel over hard to leeward when we turn up. How do we stop this?

Lean out to windward! :lol:

But seriously, no point heading up until the crew is ready to hit the wire. Also, give the crew a call before pushing the stick so they can brace themselves against the turn. 

 

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Thanks for everyone who replied. This weekend we really dialed in our upwind mode, figured out our jybes and made significant progress in our tacks. I’m waxing the bottom this afternoon, and replacing some worn out lines. Besides that, I think we’re ready for our regatta this weekend.  If you guys have any tips for rigging and stuff that makes it easier, let me know 

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jib sheet should be tapered. I'm fanatical about tapering (so many years in the 420 where i couldn't, i guess), but it really needs to be done for the jib. Make sure its setup to run through the becket of the floating block so it runs symmetrically tack to tack. primary end should be to starboard so it doesn't get friction from the kite bag. No block on the jib clew. So, cleat > starboard block > floating block > port block > becket of floating block > tied off on starboard block. Put some pieces of grip tape inside the rails forward of the thwart to help hold the kite sheets in. I preferred using a nylon ring rather than a block to take the tension up on the kite halyard. Lighter, and sort of easier to clear if the line hockled up. 

 

For the douse, pretty much what mozzy said. The crew can stand a little bit more to windward to help a hotter line in, but right over the block will always give the fastest douses - unless its blowing 20 then you need to come aft a good bit... If you need to turn up but the crew isn't ready you probably doused too late. If you need to turn to turn up to avoid boats etc, then you can always hike yourself and not bring the main in. The crew should feel the boat shifting and help - a little communication never hurts, though. 

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Just stumbled upon this out of boredom but seems quite interesting. I just finished 29ers at this recent worlds and sailed 420s beforehand both to a decent level so i'll try help where i can although most has been said. 

First, on the topic of settings light wind go top jib clip. Opens up the leach and you get more flow through the jib easier. Never go for a high and slow mode to begin with because you will not have flow over the centreboard and you'll be spat, this has become especially relevant with the new foils that just give more and more lift the faster you go. Once you have the speed you can bring the boat up and squeeze the fleet out to windward of you. Also i cannot reiterate enough what was said above about main halyard tension. Always cringe to see people sailing about with a reef in their sail.

Forestay: Depends on what country you're from and what the coaches say. Longer forestay will give you better boat-speed in the breeze but heavily compromised in the light winds. Short forestay tends to give you a more powered up rig and you will see speed benefits in the light to medium. However you are not allowed to adjust it throughout the regatta (or when you receive a boat at the youth worlds :( ) so i'd recommend choosing what is good for your crew weight and sticking with it.

sidestay: depends on forestay tension and im not willing to give my settings away sorry :P

Strop: This depends on your forestay length but check this on shore by pulling the mainsheet on all the way and making sure you are happy with your leach tension. I recommend putting some marks on so you can adjust quickly on the water. 

General sailing:

Most important thing is to have a flat boat at all times. However do not do this by easing the mainsheet when the crew has their legs bent, you are just giving away power. By following these rules you should also see yourself not pulling the kicker on until required and that point being when the crew is low on the trap and still having to ease the mainsheet. At this point you pull the kicker on considerably in order to keep the same bladed sail shape no matter how eased it is. If you are trimming the kicker correctly in about 15 kts the crew should be having to pull it on as hard as he can if the helm is small because the helm won't be able to pull it on enough. At this point the crew just trims the mainsheet to keep the boat pancake flat and you steer low and fast and send it. Don't tack and you'll be sweet, they're slow!

When downwind just keep the boat as flat as possible while still sending it. There is some good video of it being done well (and not so well!) from the last worlds which is entertianing. I'll try find it.

 

Hope this helps

 

P.S: Having jib sheets, main sheets, kicker, downhaul centreboard adjuster and strop tapered on the 420 ill have to disagreee with you there mustang :P

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7 hours ago, HKG1203 said:

Just stumbled upon this out of boredom but seems quite interesting. I just finished 29ers at this recent worlds and sailed 420s beforehand both to a decent level so i'll try help where i can although most has been said. 

First, on the topic of settings light wind go top jib clip. Opens up the leach and you get more flow through the jib easier. Never go for a high and slow mode to begin with because you will not have flow over the centreboard and you'll be spat, this has become especially relevant with the new foils that just give more and more lift the faster you go. Once you have the speed you can bring the boat up and squeeze the fleet out to windward of you. Also i cannot reiterate enough what was said above about main halyard tension. Always cringe to see people sailing about with a reef in their sail.

Forestay: Depends on what country you're from and what the coaches say. Longer forestay will give you better boat-speed in the breeze but heavily compromised in the light winds. Short forestay tends to give you a more powered up rig and you will see speed benefits in the light to medium. However you are not allowed to adjust it throughout the regatta (or when you receive a boat at the youth worlds :( ) so i'd recommend choosing what is good for your crew weight and sticking with it.

sidestay: depends on forestay tension and im not willing to give my settings away sorry :P

Strop: This depends on your forestay length but check this on shore by pulling the mainsheet on all the way and making sure you are happy with your leach tension. I recommend putting some marks on so you can adjust quickly on the water. 

General sailing:

Most important thing is to have a flat boat at all times. However do not do this by easing the mainsheet when the crew has their legs bent, you are just giving away power. By following these rules you should also see yourself not pulling the kicker on until required and that point being when the crew is low on the trap and still having to ease the mainsheet. At this point you pull the kicker on considerably in order to keep the same bladed sail shape no matter how eased it is. If you are trimming the kicker correctly in about 15 kts the crew should be having to pull it on as hard as he can if the helm is small because the helm won't be able to pull it on enough. At this point the crew just trims the mainsheet to keep the boat pancake flat and you steer low and fast and send it. Don't tack and you'll be sweet, they're slow!

When downwind just keep the boat as flat as possible while still sending it. There is some good video of it being done well (and not so well!) from the last worlds which is entertianing. I'll try find it.

 

Hope this helps

 

P.S: Having jib sheets, main sheets, kicker, downhaul centreboard adjuster and strop tapered on the 420 ill have to disagreee with you there mustang :P

can't taper anything in the americano 420... 

One note - tacking in breeze is slow - but tacking in light and shifty conditions is faster than sailing a header to mexico! 

Can you adjust forestay length now? Last i sailed the adjusters were available for the forestay, but the hole had to be X mm from the bottom of the mast step - same as a fixed length forstay. 

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15mm range i believe

my claim to fame is being the first boat to hit the piss in that video (grey kite to windward of the Canadians). exciting race to say the least

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29er midwinters West Day one: 3 races, 10-12kn, wind ~310 degrees, half meter wind waves as well as boat chop.

We’re in 21st currently out of 29 boats, which we don’t think is bad with only about 20-25 hours in the boat. Definitely an improvement from our last 29er regatta (5-10 hours in the boat), we’re beating boats that beat us by five to ten minutes, and we didn’t flip.

4E16DD2D-D72F-4531-9721-EAF84E97D804.thumb.jpeg.83c946db20d0920afa9e1a2e6f4d6c97.jpeg10D201BC-B169-48A9-8B42-82E4031E9548.thumb.jpeg.8d4804d63c3656e60fa927bab64ae98c.jpeg6105F2C6-457D-46D1-BDFC-C259B55AD34E.thumb.jpeg.fbea5587366e7f53badd80f508a1fe7e.jpeg

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10-12 is beauty conditions, but that transition point as well... Not flipping is good! how'd the rest of the regatta go? 

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Day two: 5 races, 8-14kn of wind, it was pretty flukey, and the boats who sailed the puffs were fastest. Wind was about 280 degrees, and it built to the end of the day. We had consistent boatspeed, and are fighting in the top fifteen. Our downwind laylines still need some work.

Day three: it was nuking. 15-18 knots, 270 degrees. We were powered up and planing upwind, and we’re fairly even in speed with the other teams.  We sailed four races, and didn’t flip until the last one (twice, once at the gate during the douse, and once on the second run, during a jybe.). We still ended up in twentieth out of twenty nine, the thirteenth US team at the regatta. I don’t think it’s that bad after a month in skiffs.

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nice going! almost the whole shebang - but not quite survival conditions :D . Now you know what you need to do - so go do it. Hope all of our (...my) advice made sense and was reasonably accurate and applicable! I just took a look at the results - i don't think i recognized a single name on that last. i'm getting old. 

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5 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

nice going! almost the whole shebang - but not quite survival conditions :D . Now you know what you need to do - so go do it. Hope all of our (...my) advice made sense and was reasonably accurate and applicable! I just took a look at the results - i don't think i recognized a single name on that last. i'm getting old. 

Loved it.

How obsessed is too obsessed? 

Next thing is to learn to crew well, and find someone who wants to sail it as much as I do.

My friends hate me now that when they talk about stuff, I’m thinking about vang settings.

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11 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

Loved it.

How obsessed is too obsessed? 

Next thing is to learn to crew well, and find someone who wants to sail it as much as I do.

My friends hate me now that when they talk about stuff, I’m thinking about vang settings.

welcome to the sickness. Have you been out in 20-25 yet? Good memories of crossing the finish line gasping for breath after trying to keep up with the helm driving around waves and breathing half air half water.... God i miss it. Other fond memories of hearing the helm call up from the rail that they've lost total situational awareness because they haven't been able to see in minutes - thank you Kingston chop. Finding a good steady helm or crew is critical in all boats, the good news is you don't have as much of an uphill battle since there are local boats to race out there - i always had to plan ahead to the summer aside from midwinters. At least one of my helms never even saw another 29er until our first regatta together. 

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14 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

Other fond memories of hearing the helm call up from the rail that they've lost total situational awareness because they haven't been able to see in minutes - thank you Kingston chop. 

Ha, the classic, usually after threading the needle through a pack of starboard tackers, you turn to the helm "that was close", they reply "what was close? I literally can't see a thing". 

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3 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Ha, the classic, usually after threading the needle through a pack of starboard tackers, you turn to the helm "that was close", they reply "what was close? I literally can't see a thing". 

cue nervous humming. 

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We got into a three boat luffing battle downwind. We held high until one of the boats below us flipped, and we rolled the other one. It was pretty nuts, and I could hardly see

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this is making me want to race 29er's again... anyone east coast need crew for a regatta or two? 130lbs, awful tactics, can sort of make a 29er go, may show up slightly hungover but it means i talk less. 

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Excellent Thread!  It's a great example of how passionate and helpful 29er sailors are. 

My question is how do you determine how much wedge to use.  We've gone with 0 in light regattas and 4mm in breeze.  There was a suggestion of 8mm and inverting the bottom mast section, but I'm not that brave.

Midwinters West was a great regatta this year and South Bay produced the conditions that make it one of the best 29er venues anywhere.  The battle between Neil Marcilini / Jack Joslin and Ryan Eastwood / Sam Merson was epic and showed 29er sailing at it's highest level.

I have a couple suggestions. 

1) Ask Jon Rogers questions - do what he tells you.  He's one of the best coaches anywhere and knows the boats.

2) Find the Nyenhuis boys from SDYC.  They are super into it and can show you rigging tips, let you know when the clinics are, and teach you how to hang in there as a light team

3) Practice your water start so you can get sailing quickly after going for a swim.

4) Sail the Hamlin Series.  You can get info on the scyyra.org site

ABC

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3 hours ago, abc said:

Excellent Thread!  It's a great example of how passionate and helpful 29er sailors are. 

My question is how do you determine how much wedge to use.  We've gone with 0 in light regattas and 4mm in breeze.  There was a suggestion of 8mm and inverting the bottom mast section, but I'm not that brave.

Midwinters West was a great regatta this year and South Bay produced the conditions that make it one of the best 29er venues anywhere.  The battle between Neil Marcilini / Jack Joslin and Ryan Eastwood / Sam Merson was epic and showed 29er sailing at it's highest level.

I have a couple suggestions. 

1) Ask Jon Rogers questions - do what he tells you.  He's one of the best coaches anywhere and knows the boats.

2) Find the Nyenhuis boys from SDYC.  They are super into it and can show you rigging tips, let you know when the clinics are, and teach you how to hang in there as a light team

3) Practice your water start so you can get sailing quickly after going for a swim.

4) Sail the Hamlin Series.  You can get info on the scyyra.org site

ABC

I went to an XX clinic with Ian Bruce and a 470 clinic with Skipe Whyte (White). The relevance being both boats have some or a lot of ability to change lower mast shape. The short story is, you want at least some curve to the mast. I can't imagine wanting to invert it. I forget most of the physics, i only remember equating it to the elliptical wingtip on the Spitfire, and the general impetus to not go perfectly vertical. At best my suspicion is you're just generating a very dragging mainsail. 

Oh, the other factor at the Ian Bruce clinic was that the XX has an adjuster at the bottom of the step. The adjuster was there primarily to "even out the build variances" of the perfectness or lack thereof of the level of the mast step plane. His suggestion was that most boats would have different settings to achieve the same MM of prebend at some fixed point above the deck. Beyond that, he said what i posted in the first paragraph. 

OR maybe this is all wrong... i;m going back 10years in both cases, and at that time there was little clarity of what you were allowed to do with the mast step. I never liked my sail  shape with stacked coins, and was typically one of the faster light air boats. Do make sure the edges of your mast step are not flaring out, though. 

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Mast heel wedge sets up the initial lower mast bend.

Pretty simple, if you get any tube, stick a coin under the front edge, and then apply compression the tube will bend away from the coin.

With a 29er, the wedge sets up lower mast "pre-bend", and that bend can be inverted.
Nothing stopping you having reverse bend, but it's pretty spooky going downhill in a breeze with a kite, and you will more than likely break the mid-mast.

If your light, you don't want a lot of pre-bend (negative) because you want the sail to blade open (leach open) early.

If you heavy, then chocking it back, will allow you to hold the leach up for a longer period of time.

Using less vang will also allow the leach to "stand up", more vang and more downhaul opens it all out.

Terms like "stiff" and "wooden" are used when there is too much "wedging" so too much initial straightening of the lower mast.

49er guys use the D1's and get pretty anal about tension, and settings, 1/2 turn so 0.5mm apparently is critical.

You want the sail to come off the mast pretty clean, so you need the right amount of camber, and you want it even, a flat exit off the mast and a round leach is very slow.

Slightly camber fwd on the beach, because it will suck aft as soon as you get going should be the target.

A lot of effort has gone into getting the leach of the jib in exactly the right place, so the main becomes an active extension of "both sails", so don't think about it as a Jib and a Main, think about it as 787 wing with an LE flap deployed.   They work together, so when you do something to one, do a suitable adjustment to the other at the same time.

Same downwind, you should think about all 3 sails working together.

The reason I am stressing this is there is a tendency to jack the mast aft, and fatten up the luff of the lower main, exactly where the jib is exhausting.    If your hell bent on that then set your jib further out or slightly ease to give the accelerated air, somewhere to go.

          jb

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On 4/12/2018 at 4:34 PM, JulianB said:

The reason I am stressing this is there is a tendency to jack the mast aft, and fatten up the luff of the lower main, exactly where the jib is exhausting.    If your hell bent on that then set your jib further out or slightly ease to give the accelerated air, somewhere to go.

          jb

By saying jack the mast aft are you saying lengthen the forestay and run with more rake then counter this with a chunky chock? cannot quite get the image right in my head. 

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Sorry guys, been a manic 10 days, HK, China, HK, Milan, Venice, Milan.    With the wife in tow (leading me actually).

By jack the mast aft, I mean, wedge it heavily under the LE of the mast so the mid mast, basically where the vang GN is, goes aft.

      Jb

    

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I’ve got a question about boat maintenance: underneath the hull, where it sits on the dolly strap, there are some dents in the hull, along the strap line.  It doesn’t seem softer there, but there’s still a row of dents, small enough that you can’t see them perpendicular but you can feel them or see them if you sight the hull. I don’t think it’s delamination as there bowing inward. Hull number is 1087 if it helps 

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yeah, it'll happen... just wetsand them out when you have time. Then follow up with a buffer and some good compound. Don't go for perfection with the wetsanding, only as much as you need to. At best a "European" style dolly is, well, best - to fully support the boat. At second best, i think Seitech or whatever that style of dolly is made by now made a 29er compatible dolly that would have the flip-up supports like the laser etc. 

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5 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

I can’t sand it out because the dents are deeper than gel coat thickness 

 

then. like i did with all of the defects in my boat.... and myself... you'll just need to learn to deal with them. make your tacks better. no fairing of the 29er hull is allowed. 

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