Frogman56

Kiwis lead JJ Giltinan

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Heat 3 of the JJ Giltinan (aka 18 worlds) in Sydney today. First two races had plenty of carnage, with the favoured Aussie boats (Smeg, Kitchen Maker) both in  bother.

Young Kiwi crew aboard Maersk have 1, 3 so far and old Kiwi crew crew on Honda Marine have 1,4.

The Skiff TV livestream runs from about 1535 local time, start 1545.

Wind for today around 18 SSE.

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I'm surprised there hasn't been more chatter about this, I've really enjoyed watching it.  How come the Kiwi's are dominating - faster boats or better sailors? 

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The kiwis operate under slightly different restrictions from the Sydney boats, so have some advantages. The Smeg team would more than match the kiwis on a level playing field imo.

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That said, the two top kiwis do have good handling, though sometimes a bit shaky tactically.

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2 hours ago, Frogman56 said:

The kiwis operate under slightly different restrictions from the Sydney boats, so have some advantages. The Smeg team would more than match the kiwis on a level playing field imo.

what are the different restrictions?

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3 hours ago, Rskiff said:

what are the different restrictions?

It's been a while since I had any involvement but I think one of the differences is the Aussie guys and their sail measurement date at the beginning of the season? Maybe the number of new sails they can have as well? Someone else here will have better info...

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only 3 sails per season, and you need six sails across the two rigs, as mentioned they must be stamped in about 4 months prior to the JJ Giltinan

If you sail a US, NZ or European regatta in the aussie off-season you can gain an extra sail or two, an aussie main might be a little heavier because its built to be reefable?

Maybe Frogman can expand on any other differences?

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Final

NZ, NZ, Aus, Aus, Aus, U.S.A. , NZ, NZ, 

note: Harken USA skipper was Riley Gibbs standing in for Howie Hamlin

 

 

JJG 2018 final.jpg

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It is likely that the kiwi boats are fully faired, which the Sydney fleet does not permit.

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Maybe they just sailed better. As for a faired bottom find it highly implausible that the extremely competitive Sydney fleet, having had the benefit of the Bethwaites knowledge have slow boats with "unfaired" bottoms.

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Oh please - the Kiwis sail out of their skins having had a multi year training programme and coming very close twice before.  They win for the first time in 45 years and the most gracious comment we can get from our Sydneysiders is some implication that they had an unfair advantage?   Gee, I wonder from where some Australians get their reputation for being poor losers?

 

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2 hours ago, Lee Shore said:

Oh please - the Kiwis sail out of their skins having had a multi year training programme and coming very close twice before.  They win for the first time in 45 years and the most gracious comment we can get from our Sydneysiders is some implication that they had an unfair advantage?   Gee, I wonder from where some Australians get their reputation for being poor losers?

 

Well sailed for 2nd by Maersk after 15 hours practise... 

Hats off to the Kiwis, their boat handling was great and they had boat speed to burn

So what are the differences, the Aussies need to know so this doesn't happen again

 

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The two top NZ boats just sailed better. NO bad races between them and always able to get back to the front bunch after some bad luck early on the track. Well deserved 1st and 2nd. No discernable speed advantage when with the top Aust boats, but very few mistakes tactically. Just better.

 

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1 hour ago, Rushman said:

Well sailed for 2nd by Maersk after 15 hours practise... 

Hats off to the Kiwis, their boat handling was great and they had boat speed to burn

So what are the differences, the Aussies need to know so this doesn't happen again

 

I think if you investigate further it was 15 days not hours. In fact the kiwis did a very large amount of practice and this was the main reason for their performance difference. 

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The most consistently operated unit was Maersk. No one is begrudging the kiwi win. It is a wake up call in all respects. But, on average, Honda and Maersk seemed to always have a few tenths advantage in straight line.

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20 minutes ago, desprit said:

I think if you investigate further it was 15 days not hours. In fact the kiwis did a very large amount of practice and this was the main reason for their performance difference. 

Indeed... 15 days of practise (typing with my toes again)

I did watch most of the coverage on YouTube, the kiwis seemed to be able to get out of early trouble with ???

Handling... Ok but not brilliant

Tactics... Hard to tell from the camera cat/drone footage

Boatspeed... Were they that much faster?

Sails... Are they newer, measured in February not last September?

There is a bunch of Sydney skiff sailors who should be asking these questions before the next JJ's

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Honda overtook a lot of boats down wind and the commentators mentioned that their kite was much flatter. Maybe their sail design was a factor?

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37 minutes ago, desprit said:

Honda overtook a lot of boats down wind and the commentators mentioned that their kite was much flatter. Maybe their sail design was a factor?

Perhaps North Australia needs to ask North New Zealand what the secret is

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Hmmm, Looked like Smeg, Honda and Maersk used similar north #1 assys. Maersk almost always made ground running. Theories?

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As the father of the forward hand on the 3rd place boat - the 1st Australian boat, I can emphatically say that the NZ crew work and boat handling was 2-3 levels above the Australians.

They simply deserved to win, and win they did.   And don't give me the crap about fairing!

Very likely they had spent more time on sail design also, and all power to them.

Yes the NZ boats had smaller flatter sails, without the excessive square heads, they just looked better.

I watch 4 of the 7 days, and in each case, the Aussies where out sailed.  

Well done to Dave McDiarmid and the boy, also to Josh, and his crew, all the best in Palma next week!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From a very personal POV, it was amazing to meet the Mcdell brothers, total rock stars, change my life, and it was a honour to meet them.

A great series and a seismic shift has hit the Australian's!

       JB

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58 minutes ago, JulianB said:

As the father of the forward hand on the 3rd place boat - the 1st Australian boat, I can emphatically say that the NZ crew work and boat handling was 2-3 levels above the Australians.

They simply deserved to win, and win they did.   And don't give me the crap about fairing!

Very likely they had spent more time on sail design also, and all power to them.

Yes the NZ boats had smaller flatter sails, without the excessive square heads, they just looked better.

I watch 4 of the 7 days, and in each case, the Aussies where out sailed.  

Well done to Dave McDiarmid and the boy, also to Josh, and his crew, all the best in Palma next week!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From a very personal POV, it was amazing to meet the Mcdell brothers, total rock stars, change my life, and it was a honour to meet them.

A great series and a seismic shift has hit the Australian's!

       JB

Thanks for the summary

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While Julian is right, he misses things. From what I can see looking at videos of this year and last year, the Kiwi's were using completely different rigs this year. It will take the Sydney fleet at least 2 years before they can catch up, because of limits on the number of new sails allowed each year. The NZers also have a big advantage when it comes to sail development. The Sydney fleet are limited in the amount of sailing they are allowed to do and their development period is very short, because new sails have to be registered at the beginning of the season. This leaves the 6 winter months to design, make a trial new sails, which doesn't work well in Sydney because there is either no wind or too much wind in winter. The Kiwi's can keep developing their sails until after Christmas and they should also have significantly newer sails.

This might sound like I am taking away from the NZ victory, but even when you have the best gear, you still have to sail properly to win and both NZ crews looked as if they were doing an exceptional job. While some say boatspeed makes you a tactical genius, in my experience, it also gets you to the wrong side of the course even quicker.

 

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Dont forget that the series had quite a large proportion of high speed reaching, in the ne and s courses. Where high speed gets you directly to the mark!

Maersk upwind sailed high and slow. Honda slightly lower and faster. Both medium weight crews. Maersk big main 3 years old.

Lots of factors...?....

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The boats are funded differently.

The Sydney boats are almost all owned by the club, who souce the sponsors, and provide the boats with a limited budgets to the crews, who pay nothing, but do maintain and care for the boats for the year. The newest/best boats go to the best performing crews each year. Some sponsors become loyal to crews too. But the club owns the boats so sets the rules on usage and gear to ensure equity amounst the fleet for the whole season, not just the end of season regatta. I am ot sure that the sail restrictions apply to the regatta but it would be a big cost/effort with some risk for a crew to bring out new sails just for the end of the season championship. Better to use what you know how to use.

I think all the overseas boats are funded by the owners and a little by their sponsors. For 45 years this has not been an advantage. This year the Kiwis were just better sailors.

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So the answer is  complex.

But a cupla ideas:

The Sydney administrationedex to get their heads out of their asses

JB needs to get his outa the sand as well.

 

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The aussies get to have a world championship each year on their own tricky waters that favour local knowledge, which they also race on all season in a big fleet... and yet it's the aussies who are disadvantaged... and they say the poms whine!

Truth seems to be whilst the NZL guys may have slightly more freedom to test new sails they still have to find the cash and time to do so. There has been quite a turnover in crews in the Sydney fleet with an emphasis to get younger crews in. It's been obvious watching there has been a step down in boat handling from the days of 7. The commentators have remarked on it a few times too.  Give it a year or so and they'll be back dominating. 

Was a cracking series to watch though. Aussies getting humiliated in Sydney... whats not to like ;) 

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Mozz,

The Sydney fleet needed a touch up, which it received; well delivered by Honda and Maersk.

But humiliated is not good language, IMO.

Smeg (the most reliable and mostly best sailed Australian boat) had a poor event, with two bad races in heavy air, and one in light air. So could not win.

But for guys with fairly crappy straight line speed,, did OK.

The captain, Lee Knapton, has been at the top of the 18 and 16 fleets for some years, and particularly in L - M, sometimes astonishing to watch.

And the 16 is more like the 470 (at which he was Olympic standard) and could not be more different to the 18. (Skinny boat, low RM etc)

The Sydney fleet lost a generation of talent at the end of last year, Michael Coxon, Dave OConnor, Trent Barnabus, Dave Witt, Tom Clout, Jack McCartney, Sharko, etc etc....

Somewhere around, is a picture of Trent B, with the entire spinnaker (apparently in one had) on Thurlow Fisher in the drop zone from last year's JJ. I will try to find and post, for 'comparison' purposes.

In any event, the OZ fleet requires new (as in young!) blood and new ideas and administration.

Suggestions welcome!

F

 

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