interested party

61.1 Informing the Protestee

Recommended Posts

20 minutes ago, daffy said:

For the most part I'm going with port Philip

I'm glad you are going 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me try again to make one very fundamental point:

There was no protest!!!

 

On the water, while the game was being played, two boats sailed in the vicinity of one another.

Absolutely no one said ANYTHING indicating he or she was if the opinion a foul had occurred.

There are many ways to express that concern. 

The aggrieved competitor can simply say ONE WORD!!! 

That word is PROTEST!

In fact, the failure to say that word causes IMMEDIATE FORFEITURE OF THE RIGHT TO PROTEST!!!

In fact, failure to say the word loudly and clearly (and in larger boats accompanied by IMMEDIATE DISPLAY OF A RED FLAG) Tell all other competitors, jury members, judges, members of the team, and yourself, “Whatever just happened is fine with me. I shall continue forth without further concern about whatever may or may not have happened.”

 

Here is the deal. Other competitors have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO READ YOUR MIND. 

It is absolutely absurd to expect other competitors to assume you will decide to file a protest hours later about an incident your actions previously described as fine  and dandy. 

....

Consider this:

Those who are tasked with finally settling appeals after everyone else has  thrown in his two cents worth have repeatedly made it clear: 

Failure to hail and (if required) fly a flag is an abandonment of the right to protest. 

Why??

Because the hail and flag ANNOUNCE THE INTENT TO PROTEST

SOME FACTS:

“Hey!!  You just fouled the shit out of me!! Do some turns!”

is NOT A PROTEST. 

In fact, it is simply a bluff. It is gamesmanship. 

That sort of hail says, “I didn’t like what you did but either I don’t care enough to OFICIALLY call you on it, or I seriously doubt I could make a decent case to a third party.”

——

one more explantation.

 

”My good man!! You have offended me with your actions and I now feel obligated to demand you take a penalty” is not a valid and acceptable way to make a valid protest. 

“Aw darn!!! I hate to do this but PROTEST!!! Look!! I am flying my red flag!” Is a valid, however verbose, way to officially begin the protest process.

Simply yelling ONE WORD ( and flying a flag if your boat is  not singlehander) is the most straightforward method. 

Dearest OP. 

I believe your decision to be made is:

1. Appeal

2. Go on with life 

 

best of luck to you!! 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Steam Flyer

i feel your pain. You would like the game to be conducted in a sportsmanlike fashion. 

So would I. We do not disagree.

i think we do not see the protest from the same set of views.

Maybe I can use the OP to make my position more clear.

OP seems like an honorable fellow who thinks he sailed a race without fouling anybody.

There are many reasons he thinks that is the case.

1. He didn’t notice any fouls.

2. Nobody else accused him of committing a foul. 

 

He orobabky came in after tge race, visited with friends, and headed home.

but wait!!!

Another sailor who failed to play according to the rules surrounding filing protests  came in and filed a protest. 

That other sailor may be a great fellow who happens to have a learning disorder and cannot read and comprehend the rules of the game. 

I shall not suggest the other sailor acted out of malice or decided to make up a story. I am merely saying, “The other sailor FAILED TO PLAY BY THE RULES.”

Rules define the game. The rules say, “If you don’t say protest and fly the  flag, YOU ARE NOT INITIATING A PROTEST.”

The late protest ROBBED THE OP of his opportunity to compete. 

Had the procrastinating protestor said PROTEST, OP could have decided whether he agreed he had  fouled and he could have taken a penalty.

consideringbit was light wind, OP probably  could have explained his case right then and there.

”You missed us by over five feet I do not believe we fouled you”

instead, the protestor just silly billy filed a protest 

.... 

last... this protest is sorta like messing with a score after the baseball game is over. 

Without any videos, photos, or witnesses...

I don’t think he touched second base when he hit that grand slam. 

Ok... you win

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

You are deliberately trying to twist words,

No, I'm using the verb "to cheat" in the most commonly understood meaning...... a competitor who deliberately breaks one or more rules of a game to better his final standing. The PC is not competing.

 

7 hours ago, Svanen said:

Gents, I humbly suggest that you should both let this "cheating" thing go.

It's a blind alley that leads nowhere, and just increases your respective blood pressures.

Doesn't bother me a bit, I'm just trying to explain my point of view. For one thing, I have a lot of respect for most participants in this kind of discussion, have learned a lot in the past, and appreciate the opportunity to participate and continue learning. Although to be honest, I am less and less interested in racing these days, party for other reasons but partly because of attitudes like we see here.

5 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

@Steam Flyer

i feel your pain. You would like the game to be conducted in a sportsmanlike fashion. 

So would I. We do not disagree.

i think we do not see the protest from the same set of views.

Maybe I can use the OP to make my position more clear.

OP seems like an honorable fellow who thinks he sailed a race without fouling anybody.

There are many reasons he thinks that is the case.

1. He didn’t notice any fouls.

2. Nobody else accused him of committing a foul. 

 

He orobabky came in after tge race, visited with friends, and headed home.

but wait!!!

Another sailor who failed to play according to the rules surrounding filing protests  came in and filed a protest. 

That other sailor may be a great fellow who happens to have a learning disorder and cannot read and comprehend the rules of the game. 

I shall not suggest the other sailor acted out of malice or decided to make up a story. I am merely saying, “The other sailor FAILED TO PLAY BY THE RULES.”

Rules define the game. The rules say, “If you don’t say protest and fly the  flag, YOU ARE NOT INITIATING A PROTEST.”

The late protest ROBBED THE OP of his opportunity to compete. 

Had the procrastinating protestor said PROTEST, OP could have decided whether he agreed he had  fouled and he could have taken a penalty.

consideringbit was light wind, OP probably  could have explained his case right then and there.

”You missed us by over five feet I do not believe we fouled you”

instead, the protestor just silly billy filed a protest 

.... 

last... this protest is sorta like messing with a score after the baseball game is over. 

Without any videos, photos, or witnesses...

I don’t think he touched second base when he hit that grand slam. 

Ok... you win

 

 

 

Well put, but there are a wide variety of circumstances and the rules need to cover them all. And I'm certainly not suggesting that a score be altered after the game is over with no evidence. Total red herring, why would a PC do that? Just assume out of the blue sky that Boat A broke a rule? Taking your example, if Green Team wins a baseball game and afterwards, the umpire decides .... with no explanation ..... that they didn't touch second base and Green Team loses. Huh? Now, assume that the other team's 2nd baseman says "3 of those guys didn't touch the base, I tried to tell you at the time but the coach made me shut up and keep playing" and the coach says "yes, I did tell him to shut up" and the Green's runners say "Oh, sorry, I didn't realize we had to touch 2nd base." Now is there any reason at all to have the umpire change the game final result?

In fact, the core of what I'm saying is that it is a Protest Committee's duty to figure out, to the best of their ability, what happened on the water and make a judgement about what rules (if any) were broken and by whom. That is especially important with incidents that affected the relative places or finishes of the boats; that's kind of the whole point of racing in the first place isn't it?

You and Brass seem to assume that it never occurred to me that a boat being protested must have the opportunity to clear herself by doing penalty turn(s); that is not true at all. It is important. But that is not the MOST important factor IMHO, making it worth throwing out the whole duty of a PC to produce a fair race result. IMHO producing a fair result is the most important thing.

FB- Doug

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

and a red flag (if required).

It is the ONLY way a boat may know to do their turns if they choose to.

No hail, no flag, they don't have the opportunity to exhonerate.

Well if a boat knows it has breached the rules no hail SHOULD be necessary for her to take the appropriate penalty.  But, off course, if she is not aware and is not made aware of another boats belief that she did;  she has no chance 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Christian said:

Well if a boat knows it has breached the rules no hail SHOULD be necessary for her to take the appropriate penalty.  But, off course, if she is not aware and is not made aware of another boats belief that she did;  she has no chance 

the point that Steam Flyer does not accept is that the RRS REQUIRE a hail for a protest to be valid.

protest.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Svanen said:

2070809-L-E-Modesitt-Jr-Quote-Never-mist

I might point out Lawyers often manipulate laws to prevent justice. Winning one for their client seems to overrule the quest for justice more often in our current society...

We can all think of examples I'm sure.

This attitude seems to have infected most aspects of our culture form business to sports, including sailing. It all about appearing to win. Important not to be caught though...

If you can cheat bully and "win" without getting caught you get to retain your illusion of honor and prestige.

Weinstein, Trump, B.Bonds, and the obnoxious sailing bully in you local fleet are all examples of some that are sometimes caught.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looks like some are missing the point of the rules and what they represent. It would help if they had actual on the water experience. 

SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES

Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.

  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that everyone's making the assumption that the OP did indeed foul the protesters. The OP says quite clearly that they did not hit the mark nor did they come close enough to the starboard boat to interfere or cause the boat to alter course. We know that the OP is a very experienced and honest sailor. I've sailed with him and North Americans where we've done turns even though we didn't think we'd lose in the protest room  but wanted to be squeaky clean. We don't know much about the protest boat other than the fact that their submission to the protest committee said they use the words "starboard bear-off". If they had either hailed the word "protest"  or flown a red flag within a few minutes of the incident, I'm certain that the OP would have shown up for the protest.

 Given the fact that the Heineken is a regatta set up for the charter boat industry to get a boost in revenue while helping out the local economy as well, it attracts many sailors who may have raced 20 or 30 or 50 races in their lives and have some knowledge of the rules but only enough to be dangerous. Many of us  have sailed in regattas with a very high caliber of sailors and in regattas with lesser caliber. In my experience, there's more shouting and threats of protest in the lower caliber  regattas. The less experienced  helmsman  is more likely to alter course on starboard when they could have held course and allowed the port tracker to cross without incident. Less experienced sailors, are more likely to imagine that the mark was hit even though they did not have a clear view across the other boat and are less able to judge distances. Given all of this,  regattas like the Heineken  are likely to attract more false-positive protests than the TP 52 circuit.

 The central problem arises from the asymmetry and experience. The experienced sailor (the OP)  knows that they did not commit a foul and had no reason to expect a protest as there was no red flag flown immediately after the "incident".   if they had had any inkling that a protest  would be filed,  they have been in the room and contested the protest.

 The bottom line is that it's hard to take the results of a party regatta seriously.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Student_Driver said:

I think that everyone's making the assumption that the OP did indeed foul the protesters. The OP says quite clearly that they did not hit the mark nor did they come close enough to the starboard boat to interfere or cause the boat to alter course. We know that the OP is a very experienced and honest sailor. I've sailed with him and North Americans where we've done turns even though we didn't think we'd lose in the protest room  but wanted to be squeaky clean. We don't know much about the protest boat other than the fact that their submission to the protest committee said they use the words "starboard bear-off". If they had either hailed the word "protest"  or flown a red flag within a few minutes of the incident, I'm certain that the OP would have shown up for the protest.

 Given the fact that the Heineken is a regatta set up for the charter boat industry to get a boost in revenue while helping out the local economy as well, it attracts many sailors who may have raced 20 or 30 or 50 races in their lives and have some knowledge of the rules but only enough to be dangerous. Many of us  have sailed in regattas with a very high caliber of sailors and in regattas with lesser caliber. In my experience, there's more shouting and threats of protest in the lower caliber  regattas. The less experienced  helmsman  is more likely to alter course on starboard when they could have held course and allowed the port tracker to cross without incident. Less experienced sailors, are more likely to imagine that the mark was hit even though they did not have a clear view across the other boat and are less able to judge distances. Given all of this,  regattas like the Heineken  are likely to attract more false-positive protests than the TP 52 circuit.

 The central problem arises from the asymmetry and experience. The experienced sailor (the OP)  knows that they did not commit a foul and had no reason to expect a protest as there was no red flag flown immediately after the "incident".   if they had had any inkling that a protest  would be filed,  they have been in the room and contested the protest.

 The bottom line is that it's hard to take the results of a party regatta seriously.

Well said. 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

the point that Steam Flyer does not accept is that the RRS REQUIRE a hail for a protest to be valid.

protest.JPG

Agree with you on that - my point was that even without a protest you are obligated to take an appropriate penalty if you commit a foul - protest or not.  Obviously you have to be avare that you committed a foul to do so

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Student_Driver said:

I think that everyone's making the assumption that the OP did indeed foul the protesters. The OP says quite clearly that they did not hit the mark nor did they come close enough to the starboard boat to interfere or cause the boat to alter course. We know that the OP is a very experienced and honest sailor. I've sailed with him and North Americans where we've done turns even though we didn't think we'd lose in the protest room  but wanted to be squeaky clean. We don't know much about the protest boat other than the fact that their submission to the protest committee said they use the words "starboard bear-off". If they had either hailed the word "protest"  or flown a red flag within a few minutes of the incident, I'm certain that the OP would have shown up for the protest.

 Given the fact that the Heineken is a regatta set up for the charter boat industry to get a boost in revenue while helping out the local economy as well, it attracts many sailors who may have raced 20 or 30 or 50 races in their lives and have some knowledge of the rules but only enough to be dangerous. Many of us  have sailed in regattas with a very high caliber of sailors and in regattas with lesser caliber. In my experience, there's more shouting and threats of protest in the lower caliber  regattas. The less experienced  helmsman  is more likely to alter course on starboard when they could have held course and allowed the port tracker to cross without incident. Less experienced sailors, are more likely to imagine that the mark was hit even though they did not have a clear view across the other boat and are less able to judge distances. Given all of this,  regattas like the Heineken  are likely to attract more false-positive protests than the TP 52 circuit.

 The central problem arises from the asymmetry and experience. The experienced sailor (the OP)  knows that they did not commit a foul and had no reason to expect a protest as there was no red flag flown immediately after the "incident".   if they had had any inkling that a protest  would be filed,  they have been in the room and contested the protest.

 The bottom line is that it's hard to take the results of a party regatta seriously.

Well I won't/can't speak for "everyone" - BUT - I personally did NOT make that assumption. 

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Christian said:

Agree with you on that - my point was that even without a protest you are obligated to take an appropriate penalty if you commit a foul - protest or not.  Obviously you have to be avare that you committed a foul to do so

Obviously, otherwise you could have boats doing 720's every time that they came near another boat - just in case.

There are people who KNOW they have infringed.....

There are people who KNOW they have NOT infringed .......

There are people who think they have NOT infringed.......

There are people who have NO idea they even came close to infringing.

That's why we have Protest Committees.

And that's why a possible offender HAS to be given the opportunity to do penalty turns if they think they may have infringed, or the opportunity to defend against a protest If one has been lodged.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey gang!! We are going to play a game today!! You are all invited. We have a set of rules we always use. It would be swell if you would take the time to read the rules and develop a thorough understanding but, mostly we want you to come play and have a great time doing so.

We will have a starting line you can’t cross until we say go, and a bunch of buoys you have to sail around. Then there will be a finish line everybody has to cross from the direction of the last rounding buoy. If you don’t know the rules.. well... try to not hit anybody or get in anybody’s way. 

if you think somebody has broken one of the rules and you want to tell them you think they broke a rule, you absolutely MUST tell that somebody. You have to do it right away. You have to yell PROTEST!! You have to hang up a red hanky. 

If the somebody at whom you have yelled PROTEST and for whom you have flown your red hanky doesn’t take a penalty, you can fill out some paperwork when you get back on shore  and we will help try to figure out if the somebody broke any rules. 

But

here is our rule:

If you do not yell PROTEST and fly that red hanky, our policy is to refuse to listen to your complaint. 

It doesn’t matter whether your gripe is serious or downright silly. We will ABSOLUTELY  be polite and listen closely to your version of what happened if you yell PROTEST and fly the hanky.

but

If you do not do those two things, yell PROTEST and fly the hanky, we ABSOLUTELY will not consider applying a penalty to anyone for any reason. 

We will HAPPILY sit down over dinner, listen to your version of the story, and try to help you understand how the rules should have guided you through that part of the contest.

but

we ABSOLUTELY will not do so as an official part of the contest unless you have yelled PROTEST and flown your red hanky 

OK!!

Let’s all go play together!!!   

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

 

If you do not do those two things, yell PROTEST and fly the hanky, we ABSOLUTELY will not consider applying a penalty to anyone for any reason. 

 

 

You might read the current rules. You are still living in last century

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, VWAP said:

You might read the current rules. You are still living in last century

YOU might read the current rules.

If a boat is over 6 metres (as in this thread) you "must fly the hanky".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, VWAP said:

You might read the current rules. You are still living in last century

Yes... I know singlehanded boats do not need to fly the red hanky 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Gouvernail said:

Yes... I know singlehanded boats do not need to fly the red hanky 

WHAT?????

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, VWAP said:

WHAT?????

The protest flag. I am calling it a red hanky. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The protest flag. I am calling it a red hanky. 

You might read the rules sooner or later 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, VWAP said:

You might read the rules sooner or later 

Even though it is pointless flying a red flag on a boat under 6 metres, it is NOT an infringement to do so.

In fact it reinforces your intent to protest.

And calling it a "red hanky" will not invalidate a protest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Christian said:
17 hours ago, Student_Driver said:

I think that everyone's making the assumption that the OP did indeed foul the protesters. ............................................

 

Well I won't/can't speak for "everyone" - BUT - I personally did NOT make that assumption. 

Same here.

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:
8 hours ago, VWAP said:

You might read the rules sooner or later 

Even though it is pointless flying a red flag on a boat under 6 metres, it is NOT an infringement to do so.

In fact it reinforces your intent to protest.

And calling it a "red hanky" will not invalidate a protest.

Agreed. The rules say "red flag" but no other descriptor much less a part #. Yet, an IJ once invalidated a protest of mine because the boat protested (who had sailed down on us from windward, wrapping her spinnaker in our rig among other things) claimed that my hail and red flag were meaningless because the "flag" was just a piece of red cloth, not a commercially supplied "protest flag."

This is the kind of incident I have in mind when I post about a Protest Committee's function to enforce the rules.

FB- Doug

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Agreed. The rules say "red flag" but no other descriptor much less a part #. Yet, an IJ once invalidated a protest of mine because the boat protested (who had sailed down on us from windward, wrapping her spinnaker in our rig among other things) claimed that my hail and red flag were meaningless because the "flag" was just a piece of red cloth, not a commercially supplied "protest flag."

This is the kind of incident I have in mind when I post about a Protest Committee's function to enforce the rules.

FB- Doug

 

Who cares about what the flag is called . Waste of time

Gobernail thinks you do not need to display a flag for single handed boats. Spewing misinformation is pathetic but not unexpected.

He should borrow someones current rule book and read when it must be displayed and when it is not necessary. .

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Agreed. The rules say "red flag" but no other descriptor much less a part #. Yet, an IJ once invalidated a protest of mine because the boat protested (who had sailed down on us from windward, wrapping her spinnaker in our rig among other things) claimed that my hail and red flag were meaningless because the "flag" was just a piece of red cloth, not a commercially supplied "protest flag."

This is the kind of incident I have in mind when I post about a Protest Committee's function to enforce the rules.

FB- Doug

 

Flag, must be seen primarily to be a flag.  Tossing a protest out due to this lack of a "proper" flag is typical of judges who should not be hearing protests.

Pathetic as we have recently seen some  with little experience  want strict interpretation of the rules, sometimes

 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a basic problem with the rules as written. Anyone can claim that they hailed "protest" and flew the flag but the PC can only rely on he said, she said.

I humbly suggest that we revise the RRS to require that boats carry paintball guns with red ink pellets. To protest, you've got to shoot the helmsman/woman on the offending boat with a red paint ball. Incontrovertible evidence of a Protest would be the red mark on the offending boat's skipper's t-shirt. Done.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Agreed. The rules say "red flag" but no other descriptor much less a part #. Yet, an IJ once invalidated a protest of mine because the boat protested (who had sailed down on us from windward, wrapping her spinnaker in our rig among other things) claimed that my hail and red flag were meaningless because the "flag" was just a piece of red cloth, not a commercially supplied "protest flag."

This is the kind of incident I have in mind when I post about a Protest Committee's function to enforce the rules.

FB- Doug

 

That's just rubbish. What is a red flag but a piece of red cloth. A ribbon of red cloth would not be considered a flag but a triangle could be.

I know of one protest thrown out many years ago because the red flag was a pair of red underpants (unaltered). I also know of one heard as the flag was a red T-shirt. (arguably not a flag but very conspicuous)

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, VWAP said:

Who cares about what the flag is called . Waste of time

Gobernail thinks you do not need to display a flag for single handed boats. Spewing misinformation is pathetic but not unexpected.

He should borrow someones current rule book and read when it must be displayed and when it is not necessary. .

Guovernail sails a Laser. A single hander under 6 metres, If he want's to display a red flag there is fuck all you can do about. Get over it.

You ARE a pedantic prick! The kind of pedantic prick that most people find very annoying.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 07/03/2018 at 11:54 AM, Student_Driver said:

Events like the Heineken (event in OP's question) are more on water parties dressed up to look like real regattas. The rules are relaxed to allow charter boats to participate. These are economic stimulus events for the islands. There's no real YC behind the event and everyone wants to get to the party, including the PRO. 

Tough break. Sucks.

FWIW, I know the OP well and he is a rules expert and honest. If he say's there was no red flag, then there was no red flag. The race committee made assumptions and by the time the feces hit the fan, they were probably flying home.

First of all, our regatta, the St Maarten Heineken Regatta is backed by a real Yacht Club, the Sint Maarten Yacht Club, founded more than 30 years ago and affiliated with our MNA and World Sailing. They have been the organising authority behind a few dozen major International regattas including several graded match racing events,  the Maxi Transatlantic, and now 38 St Maarten Heineken Regattas.

The jury is an International Jury with at least three Olympic jurors who we invite from three continents. One juror is on the World Sailing Rules Committee.

I am the PRO, and of course therefore have nothing to do with protests. That is forbidden when we have an International Jury. But I assure you I was in no hurry to get to the parties. In fact I did not attend a single party until prize giving, and neither did any juror unless hearings for the day were finished. Their average hearing time was about 1:20 including deliberation and notification of decision, so it does not sound like they were exactly rushing things either.

This year, the St Maarten Heineken Regatta was a single-venue event, including the OP’s boat all in the same marina. The centre of that marina is the location of the official noticeboard.

When protests are entered into our system, they are displayed on the official noticeboard, and are shown online in the results where all parties’ results for the protested result are highlighted in red. The results screens in the regatta village also show those results highlighting in red just in case the parties may not know and themselves are in a hurry to get to the party.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My impression??

@VWAP is written by some person who  seems to be personally rewarded by his impression he has “got somebody.”

Whatever his reasons may be for posting in these forums, he is not here to find friends, enhance relationships with his known friends, or find ways to resolve conflicts.

personally?? 

I enjoy setting him up by supplying him with the sort of material he laps up and uses to effectively alienate himself from the community. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Shiny said:

First of all, our regatta, the St Maarten Heineken Regatta is backed by a real Yacht Club, the Sint Maarten Yacht Club, founded more than 30 years ago and affiliated with our MNA and World Sailing. They have been the organising authority behind a few dozen major International regattas including several graded match racing events,  the Maxi Transatlantic, and now 38 St Maarten Heineken Regattas.

The jury is an International Jury with at least three Olympic jurors who we invite from three continents. One juror is on the World Sailing Rules Committee.

I am the PRO, and of course therefore have nothing to do with protests. That is forbidden when we have an International Jury. But I assure you I was in no hurry to get to the parties. In fact I did not attend a single party until prize giving, and neither did any juror unless hearings for the day were finished. Their average hearing time was about 1:20 including deliberation and notification of decision, so it does not sound like they were exactly rushing things either.

This year, the St Maarten Heineken Regatta was a single-venue event, including the OP’s boat all in the same marina. The centre of that marina is the location of the official noticeboard.

When protests are entered into our system, they are displayed on the official noticeboard, and are shown online in the results where all parties’ results for the protested result are highlighted in red. The results screens in the regatta village also show those results highlighting in red just in case the parties may not know and themselves are in a hurry to get to the party.

Thanks for the informative post.

Looks like you are taking appropriate steps, using modern technology.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Shiny said:

First of all, our regatta, the St Maarten Heineken Regatta is backed by a real Yacht Club, the Sint Maarten Yacht Club, founded more than 30 years ago and affiliated with our MNA and World Sailing. They have been the organising authority behind a few dozen major International regattas including several graded match racing events,  the Maxi Transatlantic, and now 38 St Maarten Heineken Regattas.

The jury is an International Jury with at least three Olympic jurors who we invite from three continents. One juror is on the World Sailing Rules Committee.

I am the PRO, and of course therefore have nothing to do with protests. That is forbidden when we have an International Jury. But I assure you I was in no hurry to get to the parties. In fact I did not attend a single party until prize giving, and neither did any juror unless hearings for the day were finished. Their average hearing time was about 1:20 including deliberation and notification of decision, so it does not sound like they were exactly rushing things either.

This year, the St Maarten Heineken Regatta was a single-venue event, including the OP’s boat all in the same marina. The centre of that marina is the location of the official noticeboard.

When protests are entered into our system, they are displayed on the official noticeboard, and are shown online in the results where all parties’ results for the protested result are highlighted in red. The results screens in the regatta village also show those results highlighting in red just in case the parties may not know and themselves are in a hurry to get to the party.

Well that ought to shut a few people up. Well done!

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shiny said:

First of all, our regatta, the St Maarten Heineken Regatta is backed by a real Yacht Club, the Sint Maarten Yacht Club, founded more than 30 years ago and affiliated with our MNA and World Sailing. They have been the organising authority behind a few dozen major International regattas including several graded match racing events,  the Maxi Transatlantic, and now 38 St Maarten Heineken Regattas.

The jury is an International Jury with at least three Olympic jurors who we invite from three continents. One juror is on the World Sailing Rules Committee.

I am the PRO, and of course therefore have nothing to do with protests. That is forbidden when we have an International Jury. But I assure you I was in no hurry to get to the parties. In fact I did not attend a single party until prize giving, and neither did any juror unless hearings for the day were finished. Their average hearing time was about 1:20 including deliberation and notification of decision, so it does not sound like they were exactly rushing things either.

This year, the St Maarten Heineken Regatta was a single-venue event, including the OP’s boat all in the same marina. The centre of that marina is the location of the official noticeboard.

When protests are entered into our system, they are displayed on the official noticeboard, and are shown online in the results where all parties’ results for the protested result are highlighted in red. The results screens in the regatta village also show those results highlighting in red just in case the parties may not know and themselves are in a hurry to get to the party.

good job

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

My impression??

@VWAP is written by some person who  seems to be personally rewarded by his impression he has “got somebody.”

Whatever his reasons may be for posting in these forums, he is not here to find friends, enhance relationships with his known friends, or find ways to resolve conflicts.

personally?? 

I enjoy setting him up by supplying him with the sort of material he laps up and uses to effectively alienate himself from the community. 

They are having a good laugh on that other site. The stories are legendary and sad. 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, VWAP said:

They are having a good laugh on that other site. The stories are legendary and sad. 

So... You can’t get any attention there either??  Must be miserable enduring your existence.

i would feel sorry for you but you have worked so hard to be alienated I can only surmise you are afraid of trying anything else. You might die if you deliberately  acted warmly toward another human and found yourself rejected anyway.

It is much safer for you to drive everyone away so you can imagine you control your miserable existence.

Woe is you!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

So... You can’t get any attention there either??  Must be miserable enduring your existence.

i would feel sorry for you but you have worked so hard to be alienated I can only surmise you are afraid of trying anything else. You might die if you deliberately  acted warmly toward another human and found yourself rejected anyway.

It is much safer for you to drive everyone away so you can imagine you control your miserable existence.

Woe is you!!

+1

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

So... You can’t get any attention there either??  Must be miserable enduring your existence.

i would feel sorry for you but you have worked so hard to be alienated I can only surmise you are afraid of trying anything else. You might die if you deliberately  acted warmly toward another human and found yourself rejected anyway.

It is much safer for you to drive everyone away so you can imagine you control your miserable existence.

Woe is you!!

+2

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

So... You can’t get any attention there either??  Must be miserable enduring your existence.

i would feel sorry for you but you have worked so hard to be alienated I can only surmise you are afraid of trying anything else. You might die if you deliberately  acted warmly toward another human and found yourself rejected anyway.

It is much safer for you to drive everyone away so you can imagine you control your miserable existence.

Woe is you!!

Wow, you spent all of your time  going through my posts giving me 26 down votes.  So sad to be you at your stage of life. 

 

 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, VWAP said:

Wow, you spent all of your time  going through my posts giving me 26 down votes.  So sad to be you at your stage of life. 

 

 

Just  being nice to you!! I know you crave negative feedback!! 

 

No need to worry  about me. I wasn’t fool enough to actually read any of them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Just  being nice to you!! I know you crave negative feedback!! 

 

No need to worry  about me. I wasn’t fool enough to actually read any of them. 

Wow Gov. If you actually did that, it's pretty chickenshit.

I suppose I can expect the same treatment...

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, familysailor said:

Wow Gov. If you actually did that, it's pretty chickenshit.

I suppose I can expect the same treatment...

Why is the “like”/ “downvote” there if it is “chickenshit” to actually use it?

He craves negative feedback so I quickly scrolled through this thread and clicked a few times. 

Anyway... This has nothing to do with the OP. 

End hijack****

 

With respect to the sailor’s  right to demand a hearing about an on the water incident involving an alleged right of way style rule infraction by another boat, I have zero problem with our game’s Status Quo. 

Either you immediately announce your intention to protest or your protest will not be used to prosecute the alleged infraction. 

And

right along with the above ...

If you do not take your penalty right away, your only way to avoid a DSQ is to drop out of the race.

Fundamentally?? . We are in playing a game. We are expected to know the rules. As the rules define the game, how can we play when we don’t even know what we are playing??

Sailors love to brag about the “chess match “ on the water. When we don’t know the rules, our competitors cannot count on us to properly give way on many typical racing situations. 

Certainly newbies need our help. Decency and sportsmanship demands we give that help. 

We need to work to remove ignorance. Sometimes we need to accommodate ignorance. We absolutely do not need to re-design the game to institutionalize ignorance of the rules as an expectation. 

We have set one very simple very low bar:

If you want to file a protest, you have to say protest and maybe also fly a red flag. 

I could write all week about why I think that bar should never be lowered any further 

in fact, I think it should be raised a little.

i prefer to offer a short explanation.

Examples:

For someone who racked insidevthe circle —-”Protest. You made me sail above close hauled.”

For Port / starboard

””protest! I had to alter course”

*****

but the bar is a little lower .

So, please be aware. If you want to re-open the discussion about “what constitutes informing competitors,” I want all the cards back on the table . 

I want Red flags back on Lasers and I want protestors to loudly, clearly, and POLITELY describe why they are protesting 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Why is the “like”/ “downvote” there if it is “chickenshit” to actually use it?

He craves negative feedback so I quickly scrolled through this thread and clicked a few times. 

Anyway... This has nothing to do with the OP. 

End hijack****

 

With respect to the sailor’s  right to demand a hearing about an on the water incident involving an alleged right of way style rule infraction by another boat, I have zero problem with our game’s Status Quo. 

Either you immediately announce your intention to protest or your protest will not be used to prosecute the alleged infraction. 

And

right along with the above ...

If you do not take your penalty right away, your only way to avoid a DSQ is to drop out of the race.

Fundamentally?? . We are in playing a game. We are expected to know the rules. As the rules define the game, how can we play when we don’t even know what we are playing??

Sailors love to brag about the “chess match “ on the water. When we don’t know the rules, our competitors cannot count on us to properly give way on many typical racing situations. 

Certainly newbies need our help. Decency and sportsmanship demands we give that help. 

We need to work to remove ignorance. Sometimes we need to accommodate ignorance. We absolutely do not need to re-design the game to institutionalize ignorance of the rules as an expectation. 

We have set one very simple very low bar:

If you want to file a protest, you have to say protest and maybe also fly a red flag. 

I could write all week about why I think that bar should never be lowered any further 

in fact, I think it should be raised a little.

i prefer to offer a short explanation.

Examples:

For someone who racked insidevthe circle —-”Protest. You made me sail above close hauled.”

For Port / starboard

””protest! I had to alter course”

*****

but the bar is a little lower .

So, please be aware. If you want to re-open the discussion about “what constitutes informing competitors,” I want all the cards back on the table . 

I want Red flags back on Lasers and I want protestors to loudly, clearly, and POLITELY describe why they are protesting 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A simple VERY LOUD hail of PROTEST, PROTEST ..... and even if not required - fly the red flag. It cannot do any harm.

No need to embellish the hail.

And I agree, we should not lower the bar just to accommodate those who cannot be bothered learning the rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now