Midwestmike

Nacra F18 infusion MK3

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Too bad the boat wont be class legal.

D.3 HULL SHELLS

D.3.1 MATERIALS (a) The hull shells shall be built from polyester or vinylester resin, glass fibres, polyester gel coat, the combination of wood-epoxy or injected plastic with a core of PVC or balsa or felt. The hull shells shall not be altered, other than locally for fittings and passage of equipment and normal reinforcement. Epoxy glue is permitted for joining components. Every material that is not expressly permitted is prohibited. (b). Vinyl or similar adhesive film may be added as limited by C.7.2.(f).

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Aren't the Phantom F 18s epoxy and 2 pack painted. Not the flying ones.

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The Hobie Tiger also won all titles that there were to win over its last years.  

The stiffest, strongest, fastest platform on the market says the muppets without any evidence to back it up.

79FC9128-5DE2-45CF-80E6-79CDB00264CD.png

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Just now, Justaquickone said:

Aren't the Phantom F 18s epoxy and 2 pack painted. Not the flying ones.

It would make them not class legal by that rule than... 

Just now, Tornado_ALIVE said:

The Hobie Tiger also won all titles that there were to win over its last years.  

The strongest, stiffest F18 on the market says the muppets without any evidence to back it up.

Bahahaha yeah, sailed on the infusion, edge, c2, sadly not the scorpion, but IMO Edge is number 1, easily the stiffest, Infusion comfortably the worst, the scorpion looks great, but I think the edge has a speed edge, hopefully a few of the boys who are really cranking on the Edges can get up to a few worlds. Anyone recall the results from the last F18 nationals in Australia? The boys who won, didn't just win on the Edge, they were so far in front every race it was almost a joke. The boys sailed it incredibly well, but they were also just straight up faster all around the track, 5 of the top 6 were Edges from memory. I don't even know where the top infusion placed.

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I believe the class has approved the introduction of Epoxy. Not sure on when the introduction date is however I believe they are also trying to bring it forward.

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1 minute ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

I believe the class has approved the introduction of Epoxy. Not sure on when the introduction date is however I believe they are also trying to bring it forward.

That's interesting, for the last boat I built, and the difference between using Epoxy and Vinyl-ester was less than 5% of the total cost, it is definitely a much better product and not much more of a cost saving.

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31 minutes ago, darth reapius said:

It would make them not class legal by that rule than... 

Bahahaha yeah, sailed on the infusion, edge, c2, sadly not the scorpion, but IMO Edge is number 1, easily the stiffest, Infusion comfortably the worst, the scorpion looks great, but I think the edge has a speed edge, hopefully a few of the boys who are really cranking on the Edges can get up to a few worlds. Anyone recall the results from the last F18 nationals in Australia? The boys who won, didn't just win on the Edge, they were so far in front every race it was almost a joke. The boys sailed it incredibly well, but they were also just straight up faster all around the track, 5 of the top 6 were Edges from memory. I don't even know where the top infusion placed.

Have done some minor repair work to an Edge and of course had a good look at how they do things . The inverted V Bulkhead under the main beam is very reminesant of the structure the I14s  put under their mast steps [ very stiff].

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On the epoxy thing , a mate of mine has built a couple of wood / epoxy F18s over the last decade . 

Wasn't there an exception for that type of build ?

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10 hours ago, darth reapius said:

Too bad the boat wont be class legal.

D.3 HULL SHELLS

D.3.1 MATERIALS (a) The hull shells shall be built from polyester or vinylester resin, glass fibres, polyester gel coat, the combination of wood-epoxy or injected plastic with a core of PVC or balsa or felt. The hull shells shall not be altered, other than locally for fittings and passage of equipment and normal reinforcement. Epoxy glue is permitted for joining components. Every material that is not expressly permitted is prohibited. (b). Vinyl or similar adhesive film may be added as limited by C.7.2.(f).

As of October 2018 (right in time for worlds) the epoxy style hull will be class legal.

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5 hours ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

The Hobie Tiger also won all titles that there were to win over its last years.  

The stiffest, strongest, fastest platform on the market says the muppets without any evidence to back it up.

79FC9128-5DE2-45CF-80E6-79CDB00264CD.png

With the lighter weight epoxy nacra has been able to add more structural strength by adding more. 

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I was recently told by guy who just built a foiling A-cat (which is a whole interesting story in itself) that epoxy is much easier to work with at small scales as the vapor pressure is lower so components don't evaporate during the vacuum process. But it was going to be hundreds of dollars more per hull than vinyl ester. Which is not trivial but not the greatest cost of the thing. Why otherwise is epoxy so much better? 

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6 hours ago, Midwestmike said:

With the lighter weight epoxy nacra has been able to add more structural strength by adding more. 

That may be so however

Stiffest - It wasn’t to start with. Beams and bulkheads also play a part.  Is the Mk111 stiffer than the current Edge for example.

Strongest - I have seen Infusion hulls pop at the bows when tapped.  Have they fixed this.  The MK11 was not even close to the strongest. Mk111?

Fastest - The Exploder holds that title at the moment.  I would back at least the Edge is quickers as well.

 

BS claims by Nacra Europe.  You can also put money on it the other manufacturers will also build with Epoxy once the rule is introduced.

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Not much is really known about the Infusion Mk. 3 other than the boards are in the forward spot (same as Phantom, Exploder Scorpion and I believe Edge), it has convertible trunks and a Performance boomless DS mainsail.

I"m usually the last guy defending Nacra on their build quality but my Mk. 2 is a pretty well built boat and I don't think has gotten softer with use. The beams on the Mk. 3 should be stiffer than the Mk. 2 as they use the internal castings from the foiling N17 Mk. 2. IME the seams on the Mk. 2 are robust and I haven't seen one fail. I am the last guy to knock Goodall who build a quality product but I have seen 2 seam failures on older C2's and there is a documented repair procedure so these probably aren't the only ones. Repair is straight forward, but it highlights the general weakness of all F18's, which are the seams, not the panel stiffness! Goodall backup their product as do Windrush, and support in the U.S for Nacra gear is high as well so those are all good options when boat shopping.

Edge vs. Scoprion: That's an interesting one, as the Edges at Worlds didn't have top sailors. I know the Edge has done well in a variety of events for years and they are very well built boats, but Scorpions took 3 out of the top 5 spots at the 2017 Worlds with a C2 in second and an Infusion Mk. 2 in third. Put top sailors with top sails on any of the platforms and you have yourself a race.

Phantom build: They were vinylester with 2 part paint. Same as the eXploder Scorpion. The fight was over paint vs. gelcoat in the rules. 

Cirrus R2: These took 2nd and 3rd at Catacup in light air this year, have the exceptional build quality BCM are known for and I seriously doubt they will be slow in big breeze. They also have convertible trunks...

Epoxy vs. vinylester: It is class legal to use epoxy i n a foam+glass F18 starting in June of 2018. I gave a long technical explanation over on catsailor.com in the Infusion Mk. 3 thread on the differences, and the bottom line is in a manufacturing environment the delta is small to non existent and comes down to the specifics of the epoxy vs. vinylester. I.e most pre-preg resins are going to be as good or better than the best vinylesters but when comparing the vinylesters actually used against epoxies like West Systems 105 or even Proset 125 the vinylester comes out ahead. If you really wanted to build the absolute best F18 you would use the bulkhead/subdeck structure that Windrush are using in partnership with a pre-preg vinylester or epoxy s2 glass skin structure. The trouble with this approach is it is expensive-autoclaves are expensive, and because PVC foams outgas at temperature you would have to do the layup in 2 steps.

Epoxy weight savings: Epoxy and vinylester have the same density and the same volume is needed to build a hull using either product. The savings come from using paint over gelcoat, to the tune of 3-4kg per hull (and at the added expense minimum of $500 per hull for paint over gelcoat). Thus you can put more material into the hull when using paint.

-Sam

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6 hours ago, samc99us said:

If you really wanted to build the absolute best F18 you would use the bulkhead/subdeck structure that Windrush are using in partnership with a pre-preg vinylester or epoxy s2 glass skin structure. The trouble with this approach is it is expensive-autoclaves are expensive, and because PVC foams outgas at temperature you would have to do the layup in 2 steps.

I recently took an F18 sailor out for a sail on my Marstrom and his first comment was “I can’t believe how stiff this boat is dispite it’s beam”. Obviously pre-preg Epoxy / Nomex baked in an Autoclave.

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20 hours ago, Justaquickone said:

On the epoxy thing , a mate of mine has built a couple of wood / epoxy F18s over the last decade . 

Wasn't there an exception for that type of build ?

Yes, there is an exception for timber laminates in the rule.

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On 3/8/2018 at 1:04 AM, Tornado_ALIVE said:

I recently took an F18 sailor out for a sail on my Marstrom and his first comment was “I can’t believe how stiff this boat is dispite it’s beam”. Obviously pre-preg Epoxy / Nomex baked in an Autoclave.

The nomex is really the biggest driver here because for the same weight as a foam core you can use double the thickness in nomex, and panel stiffness is a function of core thickness^3. We also know the build quality of Marstrom was second to none so the platform stays stiff a long. I really do think Nacra learned a great deal from the N17 Mk. 1 and they have applied a number of changed to the N17 Mk.2 to bring the quality up, and most of those changes will translate over to the Infusion Mk. 3.

I mis-spoke about the Cirrus R2 results in St. Barths, Cammas was in the top 5 until he failed to go around a mark. Final results were Scorpion w/ 1D Decksweeper, Infusion w/ standard Performance Sails, C2 w/ Goodall Decksweeper, Infusion w/ stock Performance Sails, Cirrus R w/ Decksweeper, Infusion w/ stock Performance Sails, Infusion w/ stock Performance Sails.

I've done a pretty careful study of all the designs out there, and to be frank the Infusion hull shape is probably the best for all around conditions (5-20kts of breeze) and they have a well refined sail package. Goodall is very similar in many aspects and their isn't much in it between the two on the water. Cirrus build a quality product but the R2 hulls shape is still pretty bulky to me and its not quite proven in lighter conditions yet. I spoke a lot with Brett about the Edge, the Brits have ordered a number and the build quality is second to none with a world class fit out at a great price but with none in the U.S to look at its a little bit of a tough sell.  I ended up going for a Scorpion as there were 3 in the top 5 at Worlds -aka Mischa's results weren't a fluke. The other driving factor for me is the hull shape is IMO an evolution of the Infusion Mk. 2, similar to where M&M went with the N17 Mk. 2 but with additional free board and maybe a little flatter section aft for planning in breeze, but with the rounded shape forward the transom shouldn't prove much of a hindrance in lighter conditions. My experience with the eXploder A-Cat's is very positive in terms of build quality on the composite parts so I am confident the platform will be strong and stiff (even without epoxy). There was also one available somewhat locally vs. waiting several months for an Infusion Mk. 3 or Cirrus R2. Hopefully I can do a video review of the Scorpion vs. Infusion Mk. 2 before my Mk. 2 leaves to its new home.

It will be interesting to see how things shake out at the Europeans this July as that should give a good preview before the Worlds.

 

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So is the Mk111 gellcoated or 2packed ? 

I've bean do repairs to that sort of hybrid construction for a while . 

Pita !

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Great question for Nacra.

Define hybrid construction? I would guess they are either using gelcoat or 2 part polyuerthane paint, not both.

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On 3/17/2018 at 6:01 AM, samc99us said:

Great question for Nacra.

Define hybrid construction? I would guess they are either using gelcoat or 2 part polyuerthane paint, not both.

I get a fair bit of work repairing Kayaks, ocean racers even 505s that are epoxy laminates with foam or honeycomb cores but with a gellcoat finish .

It does tend to complicate the repair process.

Most are done well but i do get a few where the gellcoat hasn't bonded at all well and can just peel off when removing masking tape .( existing gellcoat not repaired area )

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I should add it can come off in swathes  with no signs of excessive flex or stress fracturing .

Usually end up having to ring the customer with a bit of bad news.

Some craft  you can seriously blow  off large areas of  the gellcoat  with a bit of light air from an air compressor .

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The only Phantom F18 in North America is now available for sale or charter. Worlds ready, professionally prepped w/new sail innovation kit.

Originally builders boat. Build quality exceeds anything currently in US. A very stiff and competitive platform. Current West Coast Midwinter Champion.

Change of plans for me. Great opportunity for someone else. If you are looking for a great boat for Worlds, you may contact me for details.

 

 

616768_279520122152461_415421900_o.jpg

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On 3/18/2018 at 2:02 PM, Justaquickone said:

I get a fair bit of work repairing Kayaks, ocean racers even 505s that are epoxy laminates with foam or honeycomb cores but with a gellcoat finish .

It does tend to complicate the repair process.

Most are done well but i do get a few where the gellcoat hasn't bonded at all well and can just peel off when removing masking tape .( existing gellcoat not repaired area )

Any chance you have repaired Nacra foils? I'm looking at a pair of very new C foils that the top coat (whatever it is)  appears to be chipping off in in sort of longer chunks rather than a small localised chip that you would expect.

Im not quite sure how to handle this. One part of me wants to sand / fair them back, and have them epoxy painted. Any suggestions?

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I've done some board repair work. It sounds like in this case, for whatever reason, the paint is toast -rare with Nacra these days, I think the F18 boards are quality from the factory. Need to sand it all off and shoot a quality 2 pack paint. For the latter step I usually hire someone that is a professional, has the forced air breathing gear etc. I'll do some small jobs myself (ALWAYS with a 3M face mask with fresh OV mask/paint filter setup), always outside and again, small jobs. The Nacra boards also have a clear coat over the whole board, which increases longevity. You're going to want a tough paint, I recommend Awlgrip in this one application (too much reading of late has me disliking it for hulls as it can't be buffed, but where you need a durable finish, this is a good choice). Your other option is to sand it all out and shoot straight clear using the USC Spraymax 2k Clear. I'm in the process of doing that to a set of boards but they were factory clear coated to start.

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Be careful with foils and replacing Gel Coat. Its not the repair that's the problem, its the change in shape that you may inadvertently do as you respray the units. the Gel coat is X mm thick, in your repair you have to end with same X mm thickness to maintain the foils shape, it can be done, but just be aware that its really easy to get a non uniform thickness.

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On 3/26/2018 at 6:25 AM, Flags said:

Any chance you have repaired Nacra foils? I'm looking at a pair of very new C foils that the top coat (whatever it is)  appears to be chipping off in in sort of longer chunks rather than a small localised chip that you would expect.

Im not quite sure how to handle this. One part of me wants to sand / fair them back, and have them epoxy painted. Any suggestions?

No not C foils but a few different varieties of F18 plates . Larger sections coming away may mean some underlying stress fractures ,particularly where the boards exit the case ,ie. point loading .Gellcoat is also notorious  for having a low tolerance to flex which can contribute to those symptoms . Invariably it pays to strip the external coatings back to the laminates to determine what the next step is .

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8 minutes ago, Justaquickone said:

No not C foils but a few different varieties of F18 plates . Larger sections coming away may mean some underlying stress fractures ,particularly where the boards exit the case ,ie. point loading .Gellcoat is also notorious  for having a low tolerance to flex which can contribute to those symptoms . Invariably it pays to strip the external coatings back to the laminates to determine what the next step is .

THX all for the info. When I say larger, I'm talking 1.5cm x maybe .5cm, yes largely where they exit the hulls, looks like GelCoat, but is very powdery when sanding it?

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4 minutes ago, Flags said:

THX all for the info. When I say larger, I'm talking 1.5cm x maybe .5cm, yes largely where they exit the hulls, looks like GelCoat, but is very powdery when sanding it?

Sorry i didn't mean to make it sound so extreme .You can get trailing  edge fractures that are only on one side of the plate . Gives a nice little hinge to keep popping the gellcoat off . Again  I haven't done any work on Nacra's C boards ,but it strikes me that the edges are painted whereas all the 18s have clear coated carbon ?

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Flags et. all,

I'm pretty sure the Nacra boards are painted in 2 pack paint since 2011. The original Infusion boards and prior do have gelcoat. The trailing edge should be clear coat carbon on the C-boards I have seen, perhaps these are a prototype set? Best to talk to Nacra directly about the issues and suggestions for repair.

-Sam

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On 3/26/2018 at 4:16 PM, Waynemarlow said:

Be careful with foils and replacing Gel Coat. Its not the repair that's the problem, its the change in shape that you may inadvertently do as you respray the units. the Gel coat is X mm thick, in your repair you have to end with same X mm thickness to maintain the foils shape, it can be done, but just be aware that its really easy to get a non uniform thickness.

Best to use templates for this sort of work.

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On 3/28/2018 at 7:34 AM, samc99us said:

Flags et. all,

I'm pretty sure the Nacra boards are painted in 2 pack paint since 2011. The original Infusion boards and prior do have gelcoat. The trailing edge should be clear coat carbon on the C-boards I have seen, perhaps these are a prototype set? Best to talk to Nacra directly about the issues and suggestions for repair.

-Sam

Thats good info, so would epoxy based filler be the best thing for small repairs?

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The 15 c boards have white trailing edge while the 17 c boards have clear carbon trailing edges. I believe the internals layout en layup are different as well. No idea about the gellcoat /finish 

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21 hours ago, Flags said:

Thats good info, so would epoxy based filler be the best thing for small repairs?

Depends on exactly what you are repairing. I've found the 3M white glazing putty is a close match to the paint and fills scratches nicely: https://www.amazon.com/3M-05095-Acryl-White-Putty-Tube/dp/B003P6I5KS/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1522600968&sr=1-1&keywords=3m+glazing+putty&dpID=41vYdsBhrTL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

For deeper nicks I use epoxy+microballons to repair. For the trailing edge, best to follow a variation of the instructions on Goodall's website.

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8 hours ago, kennethsf said:

The 15 c boards have white trailing edge while the 17 c boards have clear carbon trailing edges. I believe the internals layout en layup are different as well. No idea about the gellcoat /finish 

Good to know, makes some sense.

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Not to my knowledge, the first ones stateside will be at the Worlds in Sarasota. Nacra would know more, there was a post on catsailor indicating changes had been made to the platform to alleviate one complaint. I'm curious where their sail development has gone, there is a lot of work involved in designing a fast DS main and at the moment only a few lofts have good designs from what I can tell. Their kite and jib are fast so hopefully they have a fast main coming into Worlds and some top teams on the platforms to show what they can really do as I think convertible boats are good for the classes future.

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On 8/25/2018 at 3:38 AM, Crooked Beat said:

Any of F18s these in the USA yet?

 

What is the story of Gunnar Larsen selling/leaving NACRA? Did someone buy NACRA?

 

It's really the same as the old boat. Not worth it. There's a few Edge's being sent over for the Worlds, I'd have an eye on them. 

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The Infusion Mk. 2 has won more F18 titles than any other platform in the history of the class. One took 3rd and 6th at the F18 Worlds in 2017, so its hard to say that the hull shape is bad or the platform is slow/outdated. I still find it one of the best all around shapes and more easily driven in breeze than most. For off the beach work, it has the best rudder system.

If looking at new boats it is very hard to ignore the performance of the eXploder Scorpion which has now won every major event there is to win, Worlds 2017, Catacup 2017, Europeans 2018 and the Archipelago Raid 2018. Having sailed/owned both I think the Scorpion has an edge in lighter conditions and in big breeze compared with the Infusion, in the mid range it is similar to the other platforms, maybe a tad faster than some but its mostly the crew at that point.

The Edge performs well in a variety of conditions and Brett build a high quality boat/package. I'm quite sure Brett and Max will do well at the Worlds this fall.

The Cirrus R2 has also had some top 5 performances.

I think the C2 remains a fast boat for lighter teams and professional drivers that can sail blindfolded in the big stuff and avoid pitchpoles. If you look at the underwater shape of the C2 and Scorpion they are not drastically different, but the Scorpion has noticeably more volume and freeboard that make pushing in the bigger conditions easier.

Main point here is to get on a boat and come sailing!!!!+

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Since all the F18 people are in this thread, how much would you pay for a Hobie Tiger?  I want to get into the F18 fleet and hoping I can get an off season deal from someone who views the Tiger as a non-competitive boat.

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3 x  Edges loaded into a container in Melbourne now and off to the wharf for shipping.  The one on top is staying and joining the Melbourne fleet.

A6FA675E-AFB0-434E-9A4E-295F59C8FBE6.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

3 x  Edges loaded into a container in Melbourne now and off to the wharf for shipping.  The one on top is staying and joining the Melbourne fleet.

A6FA675E-AFB0-434E-9A4E-295F59C8FBE6.jpeg

8 masts?

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10 masts.  Only 3 masts going to the Worlds.  1 to Frankston with the boat on top, a second off to Frankston for another sailor.  1 is an A Class mast going to NSW.  Not sure where the other 4 x F18 masts are going but Brett is heading up to NSW next.

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You can almost never have enough rigs...

I like the teal Edge on top, but I'm a tad partial to that color (teal boats are fast in my experience).

@ eastern motors, that is a bit of a loaded question as there are many variables. The short answer is probably not more than $5-$6k ready to roll with trailer and good sails. I say this as I have seen some Capricorns for sale in that price range recently and they are a much more competitive boat than almost all Hobie Tigers. Used Infusion Mk. 1's can be had in the $8-$9k range with good sails, Mk. 2's are coming down into the $12-$14k range for older models and C2's can be found in the $10k range. All of these are more competitive boats than the Tiger if you can find/afford one. Also don't underestimate the value of good/new sails, you're looking at a $4k+ check for a complete set from all the lofts these days.

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