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duck and cover

Question: should one carry a gun on board when going offshore?

Answer: Depends Where you Surf !!

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Kind of a weird rant. Advocates common sense and assumes that having any form of a weapon on board means you don’t think rationally? If you have 6 armed pirates on your boat that’s a fight you cannot win. If your in Africa and a skiff with a deck mounted machine gun is on your stern not really a prudent choice to fire with your .38 special.  Maybe if there is an albatross in your spreaders you can shoot it with a rifle instead of a crossbow.

I heard Slocum died and went missing because he covered his deck with tacks. Some pirates tried boarding and torched his boat out of spite.

Sailing out of safe waters is inherently dangerous. Who knows what fate has in store for you. Plenty of people who didn’t fight back died agonizingly. Plenty of people who fought back died much the same. If you think shooting at everything is the right answer your wrong. If you think you can rationalize with everyone you meet, also wrong. 

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Maybe Handjob should have first canvassed that question with someone who has a first hand experience, had adequate firepower, was experienced in its use and thought that having it on hand and displaying it, was what prevented his wife being raped and then both being dumped overboard tied to their own anchor?

One size does not fit all for this debate.

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I’m still hung up in the tacks idea. Now in order for this idea to work he would need to put them down from bow to stern. It would need to be a decent density for it to really work. One poke would be chocked up to a splinter, you would really need to get a painful dance going to justify flight. With wind and waves surely they would be blown all about and overboard. Maybe he put tar on them and wore clogs about the deck? Otherwise I think he would need to carry a very large amount of tacks and take care to sweep them up and reuse them. What if he got himself he would likely get an infection. I suspect this is creative story telling and its bullshit.

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8 hours ago, DA-WOODY said:

duck and cover

Question: should one carry a gun on board when going offshore?

Answer: Depends Where you Surf !!

No.

when you match a good guy with a gun against a bad guy with a gun...the bad guy will pull the trigger first 

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shouldn't this be over in dipshit anarchy ?   anyone sailing offshore away from land based police (the St Martin cops are on hols from Paris and don't go out at night)  need to have  useable arms on their boat if only to dissuade Clean from mooching a ride..........

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The Slocum/tacks story is in his book. He spread them on the deck to keep local natives from coming on board during the night. He reported that he heard them try to board and then leave.

He died at sea several years later.

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a personal choice.....but given the option of having a gun or not......of course I'll have a gun on board....

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1 minute ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

i lean toward it being a tall tale in Slocum's book  also.  I also don't know of any so called sailor that  does not know this story, or thinks that Slocum was killed during it.  He survived the incident, so more bullshit by the fake news liberal sailing conspirators and their website owning enablers. Maybe they heard the story on Rachel Maddow's show.  And no editing by the editors. You just cant trust what you read on the internet I guess. 

 

well placed sharp stick in the eye....

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Wow - a gun thread :rolleyes:

Hits trending downward?

I will help:

When I take by boat built by Haitian slaves to Africa to dump toxic waste and then go back and forth through an Opti regatta going 100 knots while burning seal blubber for fuel, what kind of sunglasses should I wear to get the best sight picture through the scope on my Barrett 50 cal sniper rifle? If I want to anchor while shooting Gunboat owners, what anchor is best and how much scope should I use?

If I force the entire Race Committee to vote Republican by threatening to Rule 69 the Fresno yacht club for not selling meth, is it fair the PHRF committee of Long Island who I think helped Clean hide some porn mags and the Storm Trysail Club storm trysails.

Good or do you need more :lol: 

* forgot, what kinds of horrible crotch rashes can you catch at Key West and is it true KWRW spread the Black Plague?

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24 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Wow - a gun thread :rolleyes:

Hits trending downward?

I will help:

When I take by boat built by Haitian slaves to Africa to dump toxic waste and then go back and forth through an Opti regatta going 100 knots while burning seal blubber for fuel, what kind of sunglasses should I wear to get the best sight picture through the scope on my Barrett 50 cal sniper rifle? If I want to anchor while shooting Gunboat owners, what anchor is best and how much scope should I use?

If I force the entire Race Committee to vote Republican by threatening to Rule 69 the Fresno yacht club for not selling meth, is it fair the PHRF committee of Long Island who I think helped Clean hide some porn mags and the Storm Trysail Club storm trysails.

Good or do you need more :lol: 

* forgot, what kinds of horrible crotch rashes can you catch at Key West and is it true KWRW spread the Black Plague?

Nice effort!  But surely you can do better.....?

 

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You forgot sailing gloves, shoes/boots and something about baltoplate.....  ;)

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Do pink media flags figure in the colregs? For example, if a supertanker full of chocolate  is on a collision course with a supertanker full of peanut butter, does the first one to hoist a pink flag become stand-on?

If your sponsor designs a sailing version of a screened in porch and takes it into the North Atlantic in winter, should you whine like a bitch if everyone points out the obvious problem?

Does The Ed have anything else he needs to sell to pay off his various ex wives and girflfriends?

If The Tillerman (aka Doublereef) and the 4th mode guy had a love child, would Clean start a caption contest involving catholic school girls?

Americas Cup - should we go back to J-Boats or just start using jet engines. Discuss.

What is wrong with sailing? Time Money Video Games or Yacht Clubs?

Opti - best thing ever or worse than herpes on your face?

 

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18 minutes ago, shaggy said:

You forgot sailing gloves, shoes/boots and something about baltoplate.....  ;)

within 3 lengths of the mark tacking onto port

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Does no one remember the scene from Captain Ron where they use the flare gun against the bad guys?

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We used to use tacks in late night prep school dorm raids against seniors in swanky Rhode Is. School. They were quite effective as we never were caught

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Some guns will scare anyone away

24141A54-09D0-4186-91D2-B61035140071.jpeg

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Happiness is a Warm "GUN"

Image result for surfboard "GUN"

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Get a big "GUN FREE ZONE" sign. Put in on a neighbor's boat.

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15 hours ago, Cape_taco12 said:

Kind of a weird rant. Advocates common sense and assumes that having any form of a weapon on board means you don’t think rationally? If you have 6 armed pirates on your boat that’s a fight you cannot win. If your in Africa and a skiff with a deck mounted machine gun is on your stern not really a prudent choice to fire with your .38 special.  Maybe if there is an albatross in your spreaders you can shoot it with a rifle instead of a crossbow.

I heard Slocum died and went missing because he covered his deck with tacks. Some pirates tried boarding and torched his boat out of spite.

Sailing out of safe waters is inherently dangerous. Who knows what fate has in store for you. Plenty of people who didn’t fight back died agonizingly. Plenty of people who fought back died much the same. If you think shooting at everything is the right answer your wrong. If you think you can rationalize with everyone you meet, also wrong. 

I'm probably going to regret wading into this...

It is somewhat of an odd rant, but he has good points. If you have a firearm your responses and evaluations to a crisis will be different than if you do not; this is fact. And you are more likely to use the gun when you shouldn't if you have one...also not debatable. What is debatable is the appropriate response and when to make it. You don't want to find yourself shooting at unlit boats at night just because they're coming at you.

And define "safe waters?"

Most of the "I'm going to gear up like Rambo before I go cruising" sentiment I hear on places like Facebook sailing groups comes from stay-at-home dipshits that have never cleared their boats into a foreign country. Very few for-actual cruisers I know (and I've met a lot of them while cruising internationally for the last six years) think carrying guns on your boat is, by and large, a really good idea. Again, I know a couple of them that do, so no statement is universal. They're pretty much all Americans though.

Situational awareness is worth a million times more than any gun you have on board. People asked me before we went cruising "aren't you afraid of pirates?"  Hell, I used to live and work in New York City. I've never sailed my boat anyplace even close to as dangerous or where I'd be more likely to a victim of a violent crime. The simple answer is "you do your best to go where the pirates aren't".

Smuggling guns into a country is idiotic. It's a good way to forfeit your boat or a hell of a lot of money and a few years of your life. And if you shoot a local with a smuggled gun you're extra fucked, because even if the shoot is clean you're still in a lot of hot water.

Every single country you clear into asks you about weapons on board. Many of them will allow you to secure the weapons on board. Many will also ask you to account for any ammo consumed while in country. And many will graciously offer to hold your weapons for you while you are in their country, which you can pick up when you leave (shipping them 500 miles downwind to you may not be an option...). But no country is going to look favorably on a foreigner that comes in and shoots a local, especially if that local turns out to be a fisherman stopping by on his way home at dusk to try to sell some of his catch to the tourists.

When we were in Panama there was an...incident...where a cruising boat was boarded. Shots were fired, and one of the boarders was killed. I found out a couple of years later that the gun was smuggled, and the victim boat had to sneak out of the country without clearing out to avoid entanglements from the incident. Now...would they, themselves, have gotten killed if they hadn't had a gun? Tough to know. Were they deeply fucked by leaving without clearing out? They certainly faced a lot of uncomfortable questions in their next port of call, arriving without a legal clearance out of their last port. And I hope they weren't planning to go back through the Canal again. Would that have been in deep shit for shooting a local - guilty or not of trying to rob them - with a gun they smuggled into the country? Absolutely.

It is possible to avoid the worst places, or to use behaviors that minimize your risks. We've been out of the US for six years now, and haven't yet had a situation where we remotely wished we had a gun. Talk to me in a couple of years when I'm past the Straits of Malacca - but again, we'll do our damnedest to avoid them if at all possible too. And there's a reason we're not heading to the Med via the Suez Canal. And no matter what I have on board, it would be no match for four guys in a fast RIB with AK-47s.

If you're too afraid to "leave safe waters" without an arsenal...stay home and turn your home into a bunker. It's not what the world is about.

P.S. - Pepper Sprays and tasers are often as regulated as handguns in a lot of countries. But it is true that nobody ever asks you to declare your streaming wasp spray.

 

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8 hours ago, Cape_taco12 said:

I’m still hung up in the tacks idea. Now in order for this idea to work he would need to put them down from bow to stern. It would need to be a decent density for it to really work. One poke would be chocked up to a splinter, you would really need to get a painful dance going to justify flight. With wind and waves surely they would be blown all about and overboard. Maybe he put tar on them and wore clogs about the deck? Otherwise I think he would need to carry a very large amount of tacks and take care to sweep them up and reuse them. What if he got himself he would likely get an infection. I suspect this is creative story telling and its bullshit.

I think the tacks idea was predicated by the assumption that the invaders were generally barefoot. When Slocum was traveling there were a lot more "natives" out of touch with civilization. That's not so often the case any more, since shoes have penetrated pretty far into the world.

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52 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I think the tacks idea was predicated by the assumption that the invaders were generally barefoot. When Slocum was traveling there were a lot more "natives" out of touch with civilization. That's not so often the case any more, since shoes have penetrated pretty far into the world.

For the record both of my posts are intended to be satirical or semi satirical. That’s why I threw in the rhyme of the ancient mariner reference about the albatross and then the clog thing.

For the sake of argument “unsafe” would mean a place where you could legally possess a firearm probably because there is no real rule of law. The type of place you would end up getting beheaded by Abu Sayyaf. 

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24 minutes ago, Cape_taco12 said:

For the record both of my posts are intended to be satirical or semi satirical. That’s why I threw in the rhyme of the ancient mariner reference about the albatross and then the clog thing.

For the sake of argument “unsafe” would mean a place where you could legally possess a firearm probably because there is no real rule of law. The type of place you would end up getting beheaded by Abu Sayyaf. 

Which seems well worth avoiding...

 

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

Which seems well worth avoiding...

 

Agreed but people do it. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

Which seems well worth avoiding...

 

18 minutes ago, Cape_taco12 said:

Agreed but people do it. 

...and you might be surprised to find there are people in PI who own cruising sailboats. Once they read this stuff they will be flying to Chesapeake and chartering I'm sure.

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4 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

Pepper Sprays and tasers are often as regulated as handguns in a lot of countries. But it is true that nobody ever asks you to declare your streaming wasp spray.

Probably why

 

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4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Probably why

 

With pepper spray being as regulated as guns in many countries, the more relevant test would be "wasp spray versus empty handed."

I've seen a lot of people that make or sell pepper sprays discount wasp spray. But I've never seen then compare wasp spray vs actual legal options. 

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15 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

...the more relevant test would be "wasp spray versus empty handed."....I've never seen then compare wasp spray vs actual legal options. 

Maybe the video showing the unaffected attacker blinking twice, then jamming the wasp spray can sideways up the defenders arse was censored by UTube?

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Is bear spray regulated overseas?  Seems to be ok in Canada.

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I am fairly confident beer spray is unregulated in all but Muslim countries....

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BJ - quit with the serious discussion already!

This is a click-bait thread. I recently bought a harpoon gun and use it to launch baby seals at sharks.

 

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Pull out a can of pepper spray or bug spray when someone has a gun pointed at you?

Yea. THAT'S a great idea!

 

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a Full Auto 12-guage 100 round belt fed Flare Launcher would keep  Piracy interesting

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8 minutes ago, DA-WOODY said:

a Full Auto 12-guage 100 round belt fed Flare Launcher would keep  Piracy interesting

12 gauge flares don't so shit unless you get one up someone's nose. Youtube has idiots shooting each other with them to no ill effect.

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1 hour ago, DavidC59 said:

Pull out a can of pepper spray or bug spray when someone has a gun pointed at you?

Yea. THAT'S a great idea!

 

Pulling a knife or a gun wouldn't work any better -they already have their gun aimed at you :rolleyes:

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21 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

 

gunz.jpeg

 

Holy crap, his penis fell right off!!

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

12 gauge flares don't so shit unless you get one up someone's nose. Youtube has idiots shooting each other with them to no ill effect.

if one lands on yer deck or a lucky one makes in inside 

just watch the youtube videos and relax

flame throwers never were very effective either I'm sure

1/2 lb of burning sulphur in/on/abouts yer boat will if nothing else - help it be seen B)

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

12 gauge flares don't so shit unless you get one up someone's nose. Youtube has idiots shooting each other with them to no ill effect.

Correct. 12g flare amunition is the smallest size (and shorter than 12g shotgun shell) and the more common are low on energy and muzzle velocity (abt 250+ fps) on account of a benign propellant mix and small muzzle length of around 3". 

Rated height is only around 300' max. Impact is not lethal but flare mix incl its alloy canister burning at 2000 degrees F can cause serious collateral damage.

The remedy for a more serious and accurate piece of equipment is upping the gauge, optimising the propellant mix (within specs of the breech) and increasing the muzzle length.

unnamed (5).png

images (94).jpeg

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Another interesting idea, putting rails on a flare gun so you can mount a scope. Why you would need a scope on a flare gun I have no idea.

IMAG0183.png

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7 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

BJ - quit with the serious discussion already!

This is a click-bait thread. I recently bought a harpoon gun and use it to launch baby seals at sharks.

 

My bad. As party of the teeny-tiny minority of the sailing community that this relates to, I tend to take this topic too seriously...

 

On a more serious note, is G10 an adequate backing plate for an aft deck mounted .50 cal?

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9 hours ago, DavidC59 said:

Pull out a can of pepper spray or bug spray when someone has a gun pointed at you?

Yea. THAT'S a great idea!

 

Actually it's a great idea. After pulling the pepper spray out you spray yourself in the face. The guy with the gun will immediately put his gun down and get out his phone to video your antics and try and make some money off youtube, or at least get some likes off his mates.

He will not shoot you as his mates will give him crap for killing a potential star idiot.

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4 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Another interesting idea, putting rails on a flare gun so you can mount a scope. Why you would need a scope on a flare gun I have no idea.

IMAG0183.png

'Scuse me, while I miss the sky...

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5 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Another interesting idea, putting rails on a flare gun so you can mount a scope. Why you would need a scope on a flare gun I have no idea.

IMAG0183.png

Yes they are also available in the organic variety.

images (100).jpeg

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5 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

On a more serious note, is G10 an adequate backing plate for an aft deck mounted .50 cal?

Aft 50 cal...now your talking. 

You can do a Nose Job (shoot the bow off), Hotdog (shoot along the entire waterline on one side) or Decabinate (remove wheelhouse) of just anything out there short of official. Some countries may even ask you to be their Navy.

However you will need a good supply of backstays.

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Anyone else skipping past any article when they see Hancock’s name? (Maybe that’s why the attribution is at the end rather than the start?)

His contribution to the sailing world is now clicktrolling and/or endlessly retelling war stories (this one time at bandcamp...), with far better examples of the oeuvres here on SA any day of the week. Maybe instead of writing drivel he deduces from reading social media he could use that time to build a team to win and defend the AC, or help lead one of the world’s maritime conservation groups, or earn the mana of a small country?

 

 

There are much better ways to repel boarders: Stingray or Mark 54 fish are well suited to shallow waters. A suitable length for many cruisers to mount incognito as their boom (of course) and cheaper than many outside of the Comox Mudbanks. The gooseneck assists targeting across the 180 degree sweep most likely used when appearing to run away and 45kg of Torpex on a 4mile range will certainly sort a rib out before they can bring their .50cal to bear. Installation may benefit from a hydraulic vang to avoid an overly taut leach, and probably best to avoid Chinese gybes around high explosive. Can also be used to disintegrate boats in your favourite anchorage, those running gensets unsociably, or anything with underwater lightkits. May damage coral systems, but yield a good catch of fish for supper.

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5 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Another interesting idea, putting rails on a flare gun so you can mount a scope. Why you would need a scope on a flare gun I have no idea.

IMAG0183.png

Sender lines?

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On 3/8/2018 at 3:50 AM, Sail4beer said:

Some guns will scare anyone away

ffs , use a NSFW warning ............................... please .

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21 hours ago, eric1207 said:

Is bear spray regulated overseas?  Seems to be ok in Canada.

I'm going to answer this seriously, only because I've known people that have gotten into some serious problems because of it.

Carrying pepper spray is legal in Canada, but ONLY as defence against animals.  Carrying pepper spray as a defence against people is considered possessing a prohibited weapon with intent, and can be treated exactly the same as if you declared you had a Glock.  That's also why carrying or possessing Tasers is strictly verboten.

 

What this means in the real world, or atleast the quasi reality of the US-CAN border, is that if you have a can that has a picture of a bear on it you are legal.  If it has a label that says "For Personal Protection" it is prohibited.  It really is a matter of taking the label off and putting a piece of masking tape on with "Bear Spray" handwritten on it.  Oh and not telling the border agent that it is because you are not allowed to bring your .45 into their Socialist Police State.

 

 

Okay serious talk over, back to poo-flinging.

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While on serious talk this may interest some about things US. Up until recently the Washington State Legislature defined a "weapon" as follows.

(10) "Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder".

So a flare gun was considered a fireararm. However this recent addition has been made.

"Firearm" does not include a flare gun or other pyrotechnic visual distress signaling device, or a powder-actuated tool or other device designed solely to be used for construction purposes".

Ref: Revised Code of Washington (RCW) > Title 9 > Chapter 9.41 > Section 9.41.010.

It is noted Washington State is ranked below the National Average in terms of firearm deaths per 100,000 population and half that of Alaska the highest with around 20 murders/100k.

So in Washington State at least your best defending your boat using a flare and or nail gun whereas in other States they will be treated no different than a M16.

This is interesting as it goes against the tide in terms of laws and policies regarding the more recent classification of flare guns in other countries and possibly other US States. 

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The most common use of bear spray or shotguns is when a  bareboat anchors to close.

You  Hail them... "you are anchored to close " !

Then shout INCOMING  and  proceed to  Blast  or spray them down until the bareboat understands 

over the years bear spray  and shotguns have gone out of favour..the  bear spray cans rust and leave unsightly rings on locker shelves. The constant blasting of shotguns bruises your shoulder and replacement   shotgun shells are hard to purchase on cruise .

as a result most of us have shifted to  " Two stroke cocktails " for perimeter defense.  

The bareboat anchors  too close... hail them .." you are anchored to close "  !!

 Then chuck a  welcome cocktail into thier  cockpit.  Problem solved 

Dingy gas is always on board, never a shortage of bottles 

perrier bottles are preferred...nice shape, decent payload, good trajectory 

IMG_8254.png

 

 

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13 hours ago, slug zitski said:

The most common use of bear spray or shotguns is when a  bareboat anchors to close.

You  Hail them... "you are anchored to close " !

Then shout INCOMING  and  proceed to  Blast  or spray them down until the bareboat understands 

over the years bear spray  and shotguns have gone out of favour..the  bear spray cans rust and leave unsightly rings on locker shelves. The constant blasting of shotguns bruises your shoulder and replacement   shotgun shells are hard to purchase on cruise .

as a result most of us have shifted to  " Two stroke cocktails " for perimeter defense.  

The bareboat anchors  too close... hail them .." you are anchored to close "  !!

 Then chuck a  welcome cocktail into thier  cockpit.  Problem solved 

Dingy gas is always on board, never a shortage of bottles 

perrier bottles are preferred...nice shape, decent payload, good trajectory 

IMG_8254.png

 

 

Sounds like you've been anchored near a catamaran full of German men when the Speedos came off one too many times.

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To avoid  an international incident .....when naked Austrians get in close , we use  the same technique  that a squid  uses to escape predators ...

instead of ink we use black water...sewage, charter sauce 

The Ring of fire

To deploy  , 3 meters of 25mm hose is  attached to the  black water deck pump out fitting 

when naked Austrians  approach too close , you hail...BACK Off....Stand Clear ...then hit the pump button and  blast em with charter sauce . 

Within seconds the naked Austrians  are down, flip flopping on deck like anchovies on the beach, picking corn kernels out of thier hair  

 

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18 hours ago, slug zitski said:

To avoid  an international incident .....when naked Austrians get in close , we use  the same technique  that a squid  uses to escape predators ...

instead of ink we use black water...sewage, charter sauce 

The Ring of fire

To deploy  , 3 meters of 25mm hose is  attached to the  black water deck pump out fitting 

when naked Austrians  approach too close , you hail...BACK Off....Stand Clear ...then hit the pump button and  blast em with charter sauce . 

Within seconds the naked Austrians  are down, flip flopping on deck like anchovies on the beach, picking corn kernels out of thier hair  

 

All I know is that after an unfortunate incident with a portly, hairy German in a Speedo at the Baths in Virgin Gorda, I firmly believe they should all belled like lepers so they won't surprise you coming around a corner or down a ladder.

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In national parks , black water cant be used .

 To maintain a potent defense , stinging jellyfish are collected and stored in a covered bucket  ..keep the bucket in the shade, cool.  Those stinging jellies last a very long time 

During high season herds  of naked german  beasts may approach the boat . This obnoxious  incoming swarm  will get right under the transom  and hold onto your  swim ladder .

As soon as you hear thier telltale  grunts " WUNDERBAR "  " ALLES KLAR " " WIE  VIEL KOSTET ES "......   

dump the bucket of jellies into the sea.

The jellies work slowly, silently  ..  then " SHIZER " ... that swam of  naked beasts is  on fire  " SHIZER ! "

guaranteed to  Send them to  the health clinic,  then back to the old country on the same jet that brought them 

 

 jellyfish can be reused several times ,

once the swarm of naked germans has been  repelled  , carefully net  and store 

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On 09/03/2018 at 5:10 PM, slug zitski said:

Then chuck a  welcome cocktail into thier  cockpit.  Problem solved 

 

On 10/03/2018 at 3:55 PM, slug zitski said:

instead of ink we use black water...sewage, charter sauce 

 

14 hours ago, slug zitski said:

To maintain a potent defense , stinging jellyfish are collected and stored in a covered bucket 

 

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