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freewheelin

Totally lost...

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Looking to upgrade this season from a j24 to something we can cruise in a bit as well (weekends, week here and there) as well as phrf. Had my eyes on a C&C 29-2 that turned out to be too much trouble, so I have opened up the search. Problem is there are so many boats out there, it's hard to narrow the search in the used markets. Oh, and I have no idea what I am looking for. Any advice on models to look at? Given what I have seen, maybe an old morc boat? I don't fucking know...

Here are my parameters:

  • 31 ft or less
  • Budget: $15,000ish (+/-)
  • Location: WLIS
  • Lively/fun sailor (able to beercan)
  • Solid, able to handle some light coastal ocean work
  • Simple systems & not a huge project

Some wishes: like the 80's model looks better than 70's, would prefer more cockpit space than space below, toilet not porta, would prefer lighter displacement over heavy.

boat ideas?

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Here's everything on Yachtworld in New York and New Jersey. Search is set for 27-31 feet, under $20K (because you're going to bargain down). What I do when looking for a new boat is go through all the existing listings, check out any that are of interest, then revise the search to only show boats listed in the last 7 days. That way you're not wading through the same stuff constantly.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?cit=true&slim=quick&ybw=&sm=3&searchtype=advancedsearch&Ntk=boatsEN&Ntt=&is=&man=&hmid=0&ftid=0&enid=0&type=(Sail)&fromLength=27&toLength=31&fromYear=1980&toYear=&fromPrice=&toPrice=20000&luom=126&currencyid=100&city=&spid=129&spid=131&pbsint=&boatsAddedSelected=-1

There's a lot of Catalina 30's, an Islander Bahama 30 that looks pretty nice, a Kirie Elite that could be interesting, a nice Hinterhoeller Niagara 31, J-29's and a few others.

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45 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

Looking to upgrade this season from a j24 to something we can cruise in a bit as well (weekends, week here and there) as well as phrf. Had my eyes on a C&C 29-2 that turned out to be too much trouble, so I have opened up the search. Problem is there are so many boats out there, it's hard to narrow the search in the used markets. Oh, and I have no idea what I am looking for. Any advice on models to look at? Given what I have seen, maybe an old morc boat? I don't fucking know...

Here are my parameters:

  • 31 ft or less
  • Budget: $15,000ish (+/-)
  • Location: WLIS
  • Lively/fun sailor (able to beercan)
  • Solid, able to handle some light coastal ocean work
  • Simple systems & not a huge project

Some wishes: like the 80's model looks better than 70's, would prefer more cockpit space than space below, toilet not porta, would prefer lighter displacement over heavy.

boat ideas?

Buy a Laser and use the money to keep new sails and  campaign the boat around the country. 

 

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Chuck the 31' limitte, buye a J35 and be happey.                                          :)

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1 hour ago, freewheelin said:

Looking to upgrade this season from a j24 to something we can cruise in a bit as well (weekends, week here and there) as well as phrf. Had my eyes on a C&C 29-2 that turned out to be too much trouble, so I have opened up the search. Problem is there are so many boats out there, it's hard to narrow the search in the used markets. Oh, and I have no idea what I am looking for. Any advice on models to look at? Given what I have seen, maybe an old morc boat? I don't fucking know...

Here are my parameters:

  • 31 ft or less
  • Budget: $15,000ish (+/-)
  • Location: WLIS
  • Lively/fun sailor (able to beercan)
  • Solid, able to handle some light coastal ocean work
  • Simple systems & not a huge project

Some wishes: like the 80's model looks better than 70's, would prefer more cockpit space than space below, toilet not porta, would prefer lighter displacement over heavy.

boat ideas?

Kinda funny, but back in 1987-88, I made the same upgrade, from a J-24 that I had raced PHRF in Pensacola to something we could cruise a bit on the Chesapeake Bay and race locally in Hampton Roads (was stationed in Virginia Beach) in PHRF.  I had raced on big boats at Navy (Luders 44s, IOR 2 Tonners and up), but the J-24 was the first boat I owned.  I lucked out and found a young, conscientious, new to the business broker in Annapolis who was trying to make a name/reputation.  He must have showed my 40 or 50 different boats over that winter.  Any that experience, and looking at that many different boats, gave me a great appreciation of the options and compromises and trades that were out there...

The lesson is you can't look at too many boats.  So go start looking at boats.  Lots of them.  Even ones that live on the periphery of you requirements.  The guys here can give you lots of background details and impressions of those boats ONCE you've been on them and have a basis for reference and comparison.  Depending on how you weight your requirements, there literally are 30 or 40 boats that could fit the bill.  So you gotta go see em in person.   The internet is great, but not as good as walking around on a boat and banging your head on a bolt or bulkhead, laying all scrunched up in a berth made for a midget, etc, etc...

While your looking at all these different boats, you should work on being objective, and looking beyond the condition of any one boat...like the C&C 29-2 you were on.  Look at the design, and how the layout works, even if that particular boat is a piece of crap, there may be another one that is a jewel.  Also pick a couple of the more well attended regattas or beer can series, and see what everyone is racing, and which boats seem to do well.  The use that data to help "inform" your decision about what boats are good to race in your size range on LIS...

This is the fun part, and its costs almost nothing...

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I almost bought a Sabre 30 a couple years ago (deal fell through when the original bidder came back):  http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1980/Sabre-30-3065502/Norwalk/CT/United-States?refSource=standard listing#.WqHwUyjwbIU

The unusually low price might give me pause, but it could be worth looking at.  These boats are generally well regarded from what I read when I was looking into it.  The one I was looking at was a nice boat.

Disclaimer:  I don't know nothin' about nothin'.

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Hobie 33, yes yes yes i know its over 31 but its not as large as it feels. Can be trailer sailed and travel on the trailer anywhere. Fits a shoe string budget, ramp launch capable. Keel can retract and the mast can be raised and lowered easily as its a deck step. Boat is a wicked fast beer can as well as cruise friendly. No headroom is the downside. One in OKC for $9k. 

  • 31 ft or less                                                         (No, but close, feels smaller then 33)
  • Budget: $15,000ish (+/-)                                   (Yes)
  • Location: WLIS                                                   (Hobie 33 will go there)
  • Lively/fun sailor (able to beercan)                  (Yes, Like a dream)
  • Solid, able to handle some light coastal ocean work          (Yes, Like a dream)
  • Simple systems & not a huge project                   (Yes)

Some wishes: like the 80's model looks better than 70's,        (1980s)

would prefer more cockpit space than space below,         (Big Yes)

toilet not porta,           (No) 

would prefer lighter displacement over heavy.                  (yes, is a ULDB)

8/10 My teacher said that is a good grade

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Yamaha 30? Not that quick but well thought out and well built, and very cruise-friendly.

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8 hours ago, freewheelin said:

Looking to upgrade this season from a j24 to something we can cruise in a bit as well (weekends, week here and there) as well as phrf. Had my eyes on a C&C 29-2 that turned out to be too much trouble, so I have opened up the search. Problem is there are so many boats out there, it's hard to narrow the search in the used markets. Oh, and I have no idea what I am looking for. Any advice on models to look at? Given what I have seen, maybe an old morc boat? I don't fucking know...

Here are my parameters:

  • 31 ft or less
  • Budget: $15,000ish (+/-)
  • Location: WLIS
  • Lively/fun sailor (able to beercan)
  • Solid, able to handle some light coastal ocean work
  • Simple systems & not a huge project

Some wishes: like the 80's model looks better than 70's, would prefer more cockpit space than space below, toilet not porta, would prefer lighter displacement over heavy.

boat ideas?

We sailors are a curious bunch. We race our floating RVs.

on Lake Travis you just described a Pearson 26 

your water is a bit bigger. The list is fairly long. I am assuming you want a little more RV than a J-27 or J-29.

maybe, because you are used to J boats , the J-30 would be a good fit.

A $15k J-30 is either hammered or a great buy. 

In  fact, at $15,000, something you can Sail rather than wimorknon is going to demand serious shopping and a little luck 

 

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For the outlined size and use, gotta go with a Laser 28. 

Cockpit may be a bit small and the interior perhaps too "cruisey".  But the OP mentions "we" - so the other half of the "we" may appreciate that. J/30 interior even nicer, but not a good light air boat and a decent one should be well above $15k 

Obtaining parts for the Bukh may be the only issue with the Laser

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There is an S2 9.1 in Milford, CT that fits all those parameters. PM me if you want the info. 

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wow, thanks for all the good info. This gives me a lot of good search options, and I definitely appreciate those who ran searches.

As to the boats over 31 ft - that limit comes from the yard where I would store, not necessarily my preference.

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15 hours ago, Crash said:

Kinda funny, but back in 1987-88, I made the same upgrade, from a J-24 that I had raced PHRF in Pensacola to something we could cruise a bit on the Chesapeake Bay and race locally in Hampton Roads (was stationed in Virginia Beach) in PHRF.  I had raced on big boats at Navy (Luders 44s, IOR 2 Tonners and up), but the J-24 was the first boat I owned.  I lucked out and found a young, conscientious, new to the business broker in Annapolis who was trying to make a name/reputation.  He must have showed my 40 or 50 different boats over that winter.  Any that experience, and looking at that many different boats, gave me a great appreciation of the options and compromises and trades that were out there...

The lesson is you can't look at too many boats.  So go start looking at boats.  Lots of them.  Even ones that live on the periphery of you requirements.  The guys here can give you lots of background details and impressions of those boats ONCE you've been on them and have a basis for reference and comparison.  Depending on how you weight your requirements, there literally are 30 or 40 boats that could fit the bill.  So you gotta go see em in person.   The internet is great, but not as good as walking around on a boat and banging your head on a bolt or bulkhead, laying all scrunched up in a berth made for a midget, etc, etc...

While your looking at all these different boats, you should work on being objective, and looking beyond the condition of any one boat...like the C&C 29-2 you were on.  Look at the design, and how the layout works, even if that particular boat is a piece of crap, there may be another one that is a jewel.  Also pick a couple of the more well attended regattas or beer can series, and see what everyone is racing, and which boats seem to do well.  The use that data to help "inform" your decision about what boats are good to race in your size range on LIS...

This is the fun part, and its costs almost nothing...

thanks for the advice. what did you end up with?

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16 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Here's everything on Yachtworld in New York and New Jersey. Search is set for 27-31 feet, under $20K (because you're going to bargain down). What I do when looking for a new boat is go through all the existing listings, check out any that are of interest, then revise the search to only show boats listed in the last 7 days. That way you're not wading through the same stuff constantly.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?cit=true&slim=quick&ybw=&sm=3&searchtype=advancedsearch&Ntk=boatsEN&Ntt=&is=&man=&hmid=0&ftid=0&enid=0&type=(Sail)&fromLength=27&toLength=31&fromYear=1980&toYear=&fromPrice=&toPrice=20000&luom=126&currencyid=100&city=&spid=129&spid=131&pbsint=&boatsAddedSelected=-1

There's a lot of Catalina 30's, an Islander Bahama 30 that looks pretty nice, a Kirie Elite that could be interesting, a nice Hinterhoeller Niagara 31, J-29's and a few others.

Thanks for running this search, this is awesome. I don't know anything about Islanders or the Kirie either. Good boats?

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Random suggestion... a bit left coast, but Hotfoot 27 comes to mind...

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8 hours ago, 12 metre said:

For the outlined size and use, gotta go with a Laser 28. 

Cockpit may be a bit small and the interior perhaps too "cruisey".  But the OP mentions "we" - so the other half of the "we" may appreciate that. J/30 interior even nicer, but not a good light air boat and a decent one should be well above $15k 

Obtaining parts for the Bukh may be the only issue with the Laser

What he said. 

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J/30. Our criteria were somewhat similar. There are good options out there that are within your budget. We always do well in PHRF. 

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33 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

Thanks for running this search, this is awesome. I don't know anything about Islanders or the Kirie either. Good boats?

The Islanders have a good reputation, I'm not sure about the Kirie but I thought it was a decent-looking boat. However, at this size and price point it is going to come down to which boat that meets the requirements is in the best shape.

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14 hours ago, PinkSpinnaker said:

Hobie 33, yes yes yes i know its over 31 but its not as large as it feels. Can be trailer sailed and travel on the trailer anywhere. Fits a shoe string budget, ramp launch capable. Keel can retract and the mast can be raised and lowered easily as its a deck step. Boat is a wicked fast beer can as well as cruise friendly. No headroom is the downside. One in OKC for $9k. 

  • 31 ft or less                                                         (No, but close, feels smaller then 33)
  • Budget: $15,000ish (+/-)                                   (Yes)
  • Location: WLIS                                                   (Hobie 33 will go there)
  • Lively/fun sailor (able to beercan)                  (Yes, Like a dream)
  • Solid, able to handle some light coastal ocean work          (Yes, Like a dream)
  • Simple systems & not a huge project                   (Yes)

Some wishes: like the 80's model looks better than 70's,        (1980s)

would prefer more cockpit space than space below,         (Big Yes)

toilet not porta,           (No) 

would prefer lighter displacement over heavy.                  (yes, is a ULDB)

8/10 My teacher said that is a good grade

there are a lot of great things about the Hobie 33.... but that fucking cockpit is not one of them. 

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1 hour ago, overdraft said:

Random suggestion... a bit left coast, but Hotfoot 27 comes to mind...

It would be a perfect choice for the stated use.  I've owned 2 over the years. But like you said, only a few outside PNW and shipping costs from PNW would likely be a deal breaker.  They can be had very well equipped for less than 7k USD.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

The Islanders have a good reputation, I'm not sure about the Kirie but I thought it was a decent-looking boat. However, at this size and price point it is going to come down to which boat that meets the requirements is in the best shape.

Islander 30's can do well under PHRF.   Spar Trek always did well at WIRW.  But not a good light air boat IMO.  A bit of  tank, but still performs fairly well for what it is.

I believe the Elites are a series by Kirie.  I've always liked the looks of the Elite line.

if it is the 30, the hull is based on "Freelance", the very successful Briand Half Ton. 

Although French boats tend to be a bit light on SA, the Elite 30 seems decently powered up.  But I suspect wouldn't be much of a match for a L28 or HF27 in light air. 

So could be a good choice and they look like they have a pretty decent interior.  but I've never actually seen one in the flesh.

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Crash nailed it. Get out there and look at 'em. I would never have guessed I'd end up with the boat I did buy a little over a year ago when I started my quest about two years ago. But it was educational and kinda fun. ;)

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Catalina 30's have a generous handicap of 198 across the board.  I know it's the F150 of sailboats, but it is very versatile and seems to satisfy most of the items on your wishlist.

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Olson 30 - kicks ass on LIS

PM for info on a good one for sale at less than your ask.

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2 hours ago, freewheelin said:

thanks for the advice. what did you end up with?

That time around I ended up with a 1984 Santana 30/30RC (MORC design).  I've also had a 1984 Beneteau First 30E (Production 1/2 Ton IOR Design - Actually was my girlfriend's boat...so I married her), a 2003 J/109 (IRC influenced) and a 1984 S2 9.1 (MORC design).

 

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19 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

Chuck the 31' limitte, buye a J35 and be happey.                                          :)

'Zactly what I did.  From a J/24 to a J/35.  Couldn't be happier.  The 35's are going cheap nowadays, unforteately (for me).  Wet core.  some beat to shit, but a really great boat. 

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20 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

Chuck the 31' limitte, buye a J35 and be happey.                                          :)

 

23 minutes ago, DrewR said:

'Zactly what I did.  From a J/24 to a J/35.  Couldn't be happier.  The 35's are going cheap nowadays, unforteately (for me).  Wet core.  some beat to shit, but a really great boat. 

Except sometimes size limits aren't a capricious thing. 

A friend had been admitted to a club and being low on the list, his slip size was limited to 30 feet.

He bought a Davidson 29, which come to think of it beats every boat listed so far hands down.  A beast on the race course with more interior and headroom than most 35 footers.  Unfortunately also extremely rare and well above $15k when they have come on the market.

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2 hours ago, adrianl said:

Olson 30 - kicks ass on LIS

PM for info on a good one for sale at less than your ask.

I love the Olson 30s, they look great. Can you cruise them though? My wife's one stipulation is for a toilet...

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41 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

 

Except sometimes size limits aren't a capricious thing. 

Exactly. Where I want to store the boat has a hard 31 ft limit.

I have never seen a davidson 29 for sale even. they look nice though...

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5 hours ago, freewheelin said:

wow, thanks for all the good info. This gives me a lot of good search options, and I definitely appreciate those who ran searches.

As to the boats over 31 ft - that limit comes from the yard where I would store, not necessarily my preference.

Can you change yards for the boat you want?

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18 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Can you change yards for the boat you want?

yeah, of course. but the winter storage at my club is a steal, so i would ideally like to keep it there

 

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Any east coast sailors ever see a Yamaha sailboat?

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1 hour ago, freewheelin said:

yeah, of course. but the winter storage at my club is a steal, so i would ideally like to keep it there

 

That’s a no brainer then.

 I’ll keep an eye out for other candidates 

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23 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

Chuck the 31' limitte, buye a J35 and be happey.                                          :)

I figured you'd be pushing J33 with their killer rating. Got that big bathtub cockpit and is a good looking, good sailing boat.

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2 hours ago, freewheelin said:

Exactly. Where I want to store the boat has a hard 31 ft limit.

I have never seen a davidson 29 for sale even. they look nice though...

Probably never will.  Only 2 built and both are in PNW

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On 3/9/2018 at 5:57 PM, Sail4beer said:

That’s a no brainer then.

 I’ll keep an eye out for other candidates 

thank you!

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On 3/9/2018 at 11:48 PM, Will1073 said:

Laser 28? Might be a stretch to find for your price. They're a peach.

i'll keep an eye out for laser 28s. They look like they might be exactly what i am looking for.

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+1 on the J/29. I went from a J/24 to a J/29 and it definitely felt like the logical next step. If you are looking for a J/24 only larger, go for the FROB, if you're looking to up your PHRF game go MHOB. I went with the MHOB and the masthead rig took some getting used to, but I loved it. I've sailed on a fractional J/29 as well and if properly sailed, can do just as well as the mastheads. They are not as light as an Olson 30 or  Hobie 33, but you will appreciate the build quality over the Olson or Hobie.

The J/29 is a great boat, manageable size, and will keep pace with much larger cruiser/racer boats.

There are also a few Evelyn 32-2's and Tartan 10's in long island sound that could be had for a great price. I think the Merchant Marine Academy in kings point has an Evelyn 32-2 and a few Soverel 33's they are looking to get rid of. 

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I know of a very good Olson 30 with trailer located in Norwalk/stamford.  Let me know if you want particulars. I can send them via email.   FYI it's not my boat.

 

--Kevin

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On 3/9/2018 at 4:54 PM, Zonker said:

Any east coast sailors ever see a Yamaha sailboat?

Yes, we have a Y-25 in my river that I see occasionally. I've never sailed on it, though.

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On 3/9/2018 at 7:42 AM, Mike in CT said:

There is an S2 9.1 in Milford, CT that fits all those parameters. PM me if you want the info. 

ding dong...perfect....our 9.1 is everything you have asked for...

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On 3/9/2018 at 1:53 PM, GivenHo! said:

Catalina 30's have a generous handicap of 198 across the board.  I know it's the F150 of sailboats, but it is very versatile and seems to satisfy most of the items on your wishlist.

I know of one for sale at a STEAL (Tall rig bow sprit)

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On 3/9/2018 at 4:16 PM, freewheelin said:

I love the Olson 30s, they look great. Can you cruise them though? My wife's one stipulation is for a toilet...

back to the 9.1   roomy below, nice head, sails very well,  makes a great family cruiser when not racing

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On 3/9/2018 at 1:16 PM, freewheelin said:

I love the Olson 30s, they look great. Can you cruise them though? My wife's one stipulation is for a toilet...

I saw what you did there..

;)

 

WL

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S-30-30pc has a decent interior, plenty fast in the light. Great bang for the buck!

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On 3/9/2018 at 6:43 PM, BillDBastard said:

I figured you'd be pushing J33 with their killer rating. Got that big bathtub cockpit and is a good looking, good sailing boat.

love the J33...find me one, I'll move up

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15 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Wow, that looks like a clean boat, and huge for it's length. I have heard mixed reviews on Catalina's though. Are they good sailors? Can they handle a bit of ocean work (nothing crazy - but around Long Island, or Block Island and points north? We are definitely looking for something versatile - beercan, plus pocket cruising.

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I raced for a few years on a Catalina 36 mk2 (made new in the mid 90s).  It was a nice boat.  The owner had it since new and used it for everything, cruising, liveaboard, racing.  We pushed that boat hard and it was great.

It was also pretty slow (a 36 foot boat rating in the 140s).  We were pretty competitive with good sails and a good crew, but it's also a little strange racing a 36' boat when most of our competition are Santa Cruz 27s and other much smaller boats.  On the other hand it was great doing races like Swiftsure on a boat with a good galley and cabin heat.

Build quality was pretty good from what I saw (I helped out with a few minor repairs).  The only thing that I didn't like was that hardware portions of the deck were cored with aluminum, and deck hardware threaded right into those aluminum plates.  This is pretty common on newer boats though, and I doubt Catalina was doing it on a 80s Catalina 30 that you might consider.

So if you lean towards cruising and want to do racing on the side a Catalina might be a good option.

I do think that Catalina boats often have generous handicaps because the average Catalina is sailed with old sails, a dirty bottom, and a fixed prop.  Keep one in good shape and buy it fresh sails and you can collect a lot of trophies.

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51 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

Wow, that looks like a clean boat, and huge for it's length. I have heard mixed reviews on Catalina's though. Are they good sailors? Can they handle a bit of ocean work (nothing crazy - but around Long Island, or Block Island and points north? We are definitely looking for something versatile - beercan, plus pocket cruising.

I rented one in Coral Gables a few years back and loved it. I tried to get one for my brother before he got involved in another project. This boats been for sale since September.

I have a Catalina 42, but for what you describe, I think you’d be a fool to pass on this boat if it passes a good survey. It is fun, fast with the talk rig and has resale value, worth the price of hauling to LIS

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13 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I rented one in Coral Gables a few years back and loved it. I tried to get one for my brother before he got involved in another project. This boats been for sale since September.

I have a Catalina 42, but for what you describe, I think you’d be a fool to pass on this boat if it passes a good survey. It is fun, fast with the talk rig and has resale value, worth the price of hauling to LIS

absolutely we will take a look. it looks like a good deal and could be a fit. it is probably not as racy as i would like, but i think my wife will really like how comfortable it is. anyone have an idea on how (completely ballpark) it costs to have a boat hauled a few hours away?

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You’d have to call a few haulers and get estimates. There are permits for PA and NY for wide load.

The price is reflective of the fact that it will take a couple grand to get it to you.

Theres a 28 next to me here at the marina in the same condition. He wants $28,000...

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

I rented one in Coral Gables a few years back and loved it. I tried to get one for my brother before he got involved in another project. This boats been for sale since September.

I have a Catalina 42, but for what you describe, I think you’d be a fool to pass on this boat if it passes a good survey. It is fun, fast with the talk rig and has resale value, worth the price of hauling to LIS

The Catalina 42 is a bit of a wolf in sheeps clothing.  I don't think Nelson/Marek knows how to do slow.

One of them did extremely well at Van-Isle 360 a few years ago.  Conditions were certainly to their liking that year though - wind was blowing the oysters off the rocks.  Plus beating up on much smaller similarly rated boats.  But still.

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5 hours ago, Alex W said:

I do think that Catalina boats often have generous handicaps because the average Catalina is sailed with old sails, a dirty bottom, and a fixed prop.  Keep one in good shape and buy it fresh sails and you can collect a lot of trophies.

I am setting up some appointments to see boats, and this C28 tall mast is definitely on the list. Problem is, it is on the hard miles from water, so a test sail is out. Most of the other boats I have been looking at have been racer/cruisers, but I have never heard Catalinas talked about that way. According to this it rates similar to other boats we have looked at (C&C 29-2, etc.), but i can't seem to find any with posted race results. It certainly fits our cruising needs but we do love beercan racing and local phrf. Part of the reason for a bigger boat is to get into some longer distance races

Anyone have experience with these boats? Specifically how spunky and fun they are around the cans? Can they be set up to compete? We don't need to get near the podium, but would like to be able to stay in the mix.

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It looks like a really clean boat and the hauling fees shouldn’t be too much as you don’t have to haul it that far to get it to water. 

What is the boats primary use? Is it a beer can racer that you will occasionally go on a cruise or is it a cruiser that will occasionally find it’s way to a starting line? Catalina’s were really built for cruising. You will love the amenities when cruising but if PHRF racing and day sailing are you primary uses for the boat, you may be a little disappointed. You will have a hard time keeping pace with a J/24. My brother has a 2009 Catalina. They are good boats but the fit and finish is definitely “builder grade”

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3 hours ago, freewheelin said:

I am setting up some appointments to see boats, and this C28 tall mast is definitely on the list. Problem is, it is on the hard miles from water, so a test sail is out. Most of the other boats I have been looking at have been racer/cruisers, but I have never heard Catalinas talked about that way. According to this it rates similar to other boats we have looked at (C&C 29-2, etc.), but i can't seem to find any with posted race results. It certainly fits our cruising needs but we do love beercan racing and local phrf. Part of the reason for a bigger boat is to get into some longer distance races

Anyone have experience with these boats? Specifically how spunky and fun they are around the cans? Can they be set up to compete? We don't need to get near the podium, but would like to be able to stay in the mix.

if you are just PH then you really don't care how spunky or racy they might be: you just need to be able to sail it to it's rating.

if you are just mostly cruising around & daysailing then the rating is not so important as the appropriateness of the boat for the kinds of sailors you are and the kind of sailing you do - nobody talks about the boat's rating when you are out sailing around. a private head and an engine that starts are much more important.

lots of times the boats with the slower PH ratings don't attract the racer-get-every-last-10th-of-a-knot-out-of-it-types, which types of racers often make the rating harder for that type of racer boat, rather than softer, so be careful not to get a boat that you can't win on in PH and can't be comfortable on cruising around either.

by "longer distance races" what do you mean? The C28 is a fine boat (320 was their best $/fun, IMHO) but don't expect too much from it.

expect weather helm above 11

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12 hours ago, Parma said:

if you are just PH then you really don't care how spunky or racy they might be: you just need to be able to sail it to it's rating.

if you are just mostly cruising around & daysailing then the rating is not so important as the appropriateness of the boat for the kinds of sailors you are and the kind of sailing you do - nobody talks about the boat's rating when you are out sailing around. a private head and an engine that starts are much more important.

lots of times the boats with the slower PH ratings don't attract the racer-get-every-last-10th-of-a-knot-out-of-it-types, which types of racers often make the rating harder for that type of racer boat, rather than softer, so be careful not to get a boat that you can't win on in PH and can't be comfortable on cruising around either.

by "longer distance races" what do you mean? The C28 is a fine boat (320 was their best $/fun, IMHO) but don't expect too much from it.

expect weather helm above 11

Those are good questions. I think if we are being honest about how we will use it, it will be a bit of a mix. We like doing phrf races, but probably will do less than 10 a year. We don't have the budget or the crew to put together a serious campaign, so the idea of a boat that can sail well to its rating shorthanded is appealing. Even if that means we are banging around in the non-spin divisions for now. Most of our sailing will probably be day sailing, as that is most of what we do now. We would like to up it to full day sailing, anchoring, swimming, rinsing off (bc the sound is kind of gross), drinking beer - as opposed to the sailing around for 4 hours on our J24 with no toilet. We plan to do several weekends, as well as a week out each year. Part of our reason for getting a bigger boat is to explore the LIS while we are still here.

As for distance races, by that I mean some of the full day point to point races that are offered here. There is a race around long island that i have a fantasy of doing, but again I am not sure I will have the boat or budget or crew for that. 

As an aside, I am lucky that my wife loves sailing as much as me. She probably leans more towards cruising, where I lean towards racing, but we both really enjoy both. She hasn't said it, but I think she has been a bit disappointed in the comfort and conditions of some of the boats we have seen in our budget. And my current thinking is that a little additional comfort may translate directly to getting out on it more. But I am not sure that means we need a full bore cruiser. Hence the name of this thread...

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The C28 will do fine for those things, as will a lot of other boats. it will be good for up to a 30 mile point to point reaching race with a start at 11 and a finish by 5.

It's a shame to have to think of an entire body of water as gross. Good-bye planet.

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This one looks interesting as well - a Kirie Ellite 30s http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1986/Kirie-Elite-30S-2934589/Sayreville/NJ/United-States?refSource=standard listing#.WqlUGWrwaF0

I have never heard of these boats. Checking out the data on them, they look super light for a 30 fter. That may make keeping them flat while shorthand cruising/racing a challenge. Anyone have experience with these?

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The Elite 30S is a productionized version of an IOR half ton circa 1983 I think.  It is relatively light and carries more sail area than a typical IOR half tonner, but that said, it SA/Disp rating is still less than 20, so its not overpowered by any stretch.  Also most production boats come in over their published displacements...so it may well be heavier than listed, but I don't know if that's actually true for that particular boat or not...

Finally its PHRF rating is 150, where as a J/30 (ODR) or S2 9.1 rate 135 (all ratings from YRALIS base ratings database).  So its faster than a Catalina 30, but slower than the more "focused" racer/cruisers.

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14 minutes ago, Crash said:

The Elite 30S is a productionized version of an IOR half ton circa 1983 I think.  It is relatively light and carries more sail area than a typical IOR half tonner, but that said, it SA/Disp rating is still less than 20, so its not overpowered by any stretch.  Also most production boats come in over their published displacements...so it may well be heavier than listed, but I don't know if that's actually true for that particular boat or not...

Finally its PHRF rating is 150, where as a J/30 (ODR) or S2 9.1 rate 135 (all ratings from YRALIS base ratings database).  So its faster than a Catalina 30, but slower than the more "focused" racer/cruisers.

thanks for the explanation. I have heard that IOR boats can be a bit squirrely downwind, and some had stability issues. Of course this is all just reading I have zero experience, I don't think i have sailed on one. 

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1 hour ago, freewheelin said:

This one looks interesting as well - a Kirie Ellite 30s http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1986/Kirie-Elite-30S-2934589/Sayreville/NJ/United-States?refSource=standard listing#.WqlUGWrwaF0

I have never heard of these boats. Checking out the data on them, they look super light for a 30 fter. That may make keeping them flat while shorthand cruising/racing a challenge. Anyone have experience with these?

I want to say that this boat was at one time on the Hudson...nice boat Kyrie (I think the cruising models in Europe are named Feeling) are quite nice. With a  turn of speed.

 

 

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1 hour ago, dacapo said:

I want to say that this boat was at one time on the Hudson...nice boat Kyrie (I think the cruising models in Europe are named Feeling) are quite nice. With a  turn of speed.

 

 

that makes sense. It looks like it is just south of there now, and the (very pretty looking) transom says Great Kills Harbor.

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For long Island sound, I think a vintage MORC 30 would be perfect.   Something like an Andrew 30 or Nelson Merek 30.   

 

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15 minutes ago, Delta Dog said:

For long Island sound, I think a vintage MORC 30 would be perfect.   Something like an Andrew 30 or Nelson Merek 30.   

 

they look nice, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of availability. any production model versions you would suggest?

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I've owned and raced a J30 and would recommend you take a hard look at one.  They are rated well in PHRF, maintained and sailed properly, the J30 will be competitive in light and heavy air.  The interior is surprisingly nice, with a real marine head. 

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21 hours ago, freewheelin said:

thanks for the explanation. I have heard that IOR boats can be a bit squirrely downwind, and some had stability issues. Of course this is all just reading I have zero experience, I don't think i have sailed on one. 

IOR boats can get squirrely downwind when over pressed.  Back in the day we actually used to have a spinnaker made of 2.2 oz cloth that we called the "bullet proof" chute...you'd put it up in 25+ knots and go rolling and broaching downwind.  It was fun in its own way :)

Also much of that stability issue was from "optimizing" a custom boat to look slower for the rule.  Production versions we not as "compromised" in that regard.

Finally, sailed more reasonably, they are actually pretty good.  We once took our Beneteau First 30E (also a productionized 1/2 tonner) down the Chesapeake Bay in 25-30 with gusts to around 35 out of the North.  6-8 foot seas or so.  Single reef in the main, and the number 2 poled out wing and wing.  Boat was beautifully balanced, under control the entire time.  Easily running at 7-9 knots and surfs to 14 plus.  The difference was a much lower center of effort from the sailplan (compared to a chute) as well as much more stability of the sailplan (as the jib was on the headstay, and had the clew supported by the pole).

 

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2 hours ago, freewheelin said:

they look nice, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of availability. any production model versions you would suggest?

Some production MORC 30's examples would be the Santana 30/30, S2 9.1, Olson 911. These are a bit more common than the Andrews 30 or NM 30s. Olson 911s typically go for more than your stated price range, but could be worth the added investment if you decide you really like one or find a deal. All I listed are more racer than cruiser, but have heads, a functional galley and spots for 6 ish people to lay down as long as some of them like each other. They are more spartan than a boat built more for cruising in mind and generally fall short in storage lockers and tankage. Although I have seen some that have had a lot of cruising options added, so it's worth keeping an eye out. 

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46 minutes ago, Slick470 said:

Here is another good thread on production MORC boats. Probably a few good suggestions buried in there... http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/172605-production-morc-boats/

wow, this looks like a ton of good info. thanks for sharing. honestly, Olson 911 would be be great - if i could find in the price range.

Tartan 30s are MORC boats? are they similar to T3000?

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MORC was around for a lot of years, and evolved over those years.  The early-middle boats are different from the boats near the end of MORC's heyday (which are the ones Slick mentioned).  I'm a big fan of those late MORC production boats.  They are all reasonably quick, have no bad habits, are seaworthy, and have reasonable accommodations for cruising.  But they are at the top end of your price range in good shape.  The early MORC boats share all those same characteristics, but are not as quick. A Tartan 30 rates in the 171-180 range these days, compared to 126-135 for later MORC boats...Tartan 3000 was the replacement for the Tartan 30.  Good boat, rates around 165 or so...

Just for comparison, and as you know, J-24 rates around 174 on LIS.  So both the Tartan's are as fast as a J-24 which you are used to...but slower than a J/30 which is about the same size...

PHRF ratings are not the be all and end all, just a decent indication of the relative performance between the boats.  From a cruising perspective, a well sailed late MORC boat will get to an anchorage or destination 20 nm away about 10 minutes faster than an equally well sailed Tartan 3000 in a moderate breeze...so the speed difference is not that big a deal from a cruising perspective...and only really matters from a what kinds of boats are you grouped with from a racing perspective.

https://www.yralis.org/base-ratings

 

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17 hours ago, Crash said:

MORC was around for a lot of years, and evolved over those years.  The early-middle boats are different from the boats near the end of MORC's heyday (which are the ones Slick mentioned).  I'm a big fan of those late MORC production boats.  They are all reasonably quick, have no bad habits, are seaworthy, and have reasonable accommodations for cruising.  But they are at the top end of your price range in good shape.  The early MORC boats share all those same characteristics, but are not as quick. A Tartan 30 rates in the 171-180 range these days, compared to 126-135 for later MORC boats...Tartan 3000 was the replacement for the Tartan 30.  Good boat, rates around 165 or so...

Just for comparison, and as you know, J-24 rates around 174 on LIS.  So both the Tartan's are as fast as a J-24 which you are used to...but slower than a J/30 which is about the same size...

PHRF ratings are not the be all and end all, just a decent indication of the relative performance between the boats.  From a cruising perspective, a well sailed late MORC boat will get to an anchorage or destination 20 nm away about 10 minutes faster than an equally well sailed Tartan 3000 in a moderate breeze...so the speed difference is not that big a deal from a cruising perspective...and only really matters from a what kinds of boats are you grouped with from a racing perspective.

https://www.yralis.org/base-ratings

 

Thanks Crash, this is all helpful. It's tough trying to balance our wants. I guess my concern with phrf is two fold. First, I want to make sure the boat feels lively and responsive, because that is something we really like with J/24s and don't want to lose. Makes for great day sailing. The other piece is that in my area, the J/24s (at 174) seems to usually be about the slowest boats on the starting line. So I am worried about taking on a boat too much slower. We are not very serious racers, but I am not sure how fun it would be bringing up the back of the pack every time and hoping to correct over.

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What other boats are typically racing in your area?  Your right that you don't want to be the slowest rated boat off the line, generally speaking.  The slowest boat has to win his start and be able to protect his lane, or else he spends the whole upwind leg in bad air, or is forced to the unfavored side to clear his air, etc, etc.  At least a J-24 is pretty nimble, and accelerates well, which should make a good start/defending a lane easier.  On a 30 footer that rates with a J-24, you have the advantage of a higher rig, but it's not as nimble and won't accelerate out of tacks as well.  All the time I raced boats of that kind (our First 30E for example) we rated near the top of the C fleet, which was an advantage.  If we'd been in the bottom of B fleet, that might have made it really tough...

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On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 7:27 PM, Snaggletooth said:

Chuck the 31' limitte, buye a J35 and be happey.                                          :)

Cante argue  witth thatt. 

Well, you could.  If you want to refresh a couple race quality sails, it's the cost of a Toyota Corolla.  There's also the matter of getting enough crew - you can short hand her because she is patient but for racing she takes 7-9. I love my J/35, and you won't find a boat that has the same combination of speed and sure footedness, but racing her is a lot of work at times.  She's lovely to cruise though with accommodations somewhere between camping, and cruiser basic.

Given your  wants and interest in low drag periodic beer can racing along with local cruising, I'd have to give a J/92 a good look.  It's pretty quick (base PHRF 105), not expensive ($20k for a beat up one, $40k for close to mint).  Huge cockpit, easy to handle Assym, good for short handing.  Basic amenities below, permanent head, room enough to install a two burner stove if it doesn't have one yet.     

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Here's a nice list of boats for you to look over at your desk as you wait for 5:00 to arrive:

S2 9.1: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/S2-9.1-'09-Key-West-Div.-Winner-1818731/Milford/CT/United-States?refSource=standard listing#.WqvuxWrwaUk

J/30: https://longisland.craigslist.org/boa/d/sailboat-30-racer-cruiser/6504913338.html

Beneteau 305: https://newlondon.craigslist.org/boa/d/beneteau-first-305-for-sale/6483116832.html

Tartan 10: https://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/boa/d/33ft-tartan-sailboat/6529339406.html

Nonsuch 30: https://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/boa/d/sail-boat-for-sale-nonsuch-30/6526695585.html

Frers 30: https://boston.craigslist.org/sob/boa/d/frers-30-sailboat/6531362300.html

All these boats fit your requirements. Don't discount the Nonsuch 30. Your wife will be the happiest with its interior, its extremely easy to signglehand, and although you will be in cruising class, they aren't a slouch and still really fun to sail especially off the wind. The Frers 30 might be a little far but they are great boats. The 9.1 is a nice option. I've sailed against this boat before and it did well but the interior looks different and doesn't look as nice as other 9.1's I've seen. I wonder if its hull #1 or a semi-custom stripped out interior.

 

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

What other boats are typically racing in your area?  Your right that you don't want to be the slowest rated boat off the line, generally speaking.  The slowest boat has to win his start and be able to protect his lane, or else he spends the whole upwind leg in bad air, or is forced to the unfavored side to clear his air, etc, etc.  At least a J-24 is pretty nimble, and accelerates well, which should make a good start/defending a lane easier.  On a 30 footer that rates with a J-24, you have the advantage of a higher rig, but it's not as nimble and won't accelerate out of tacks as well.  All the time I raced boats of that kind (our First 30E for example) we rated near the top of the C fleet, which was an advantage.  If we'd been in the bottom of B fleet, that might have made it really tough...

here are a couple typical scratch sheets for the area:

https://yachtscoring.com/event_scratch_sheet.cfm?eID=4315

https://yachtscoring.com/event_scratch_sheet.cfm?eID=4329

 

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Lex, I think you need to add the phrase, "for the money..." as I would tell you a J/109 has the same combination of speed and sure footedness,  for a mere 6x the price!

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18 minutes ago, Lex Teredo said:


Given your  wants and interest in low drag periodic beer can racing along with local cruising, I'd have to give a J/92 a good look.  It's pretty quick (base PHRF 105), not expensive ($20k for a beat up one, $40k for close to mint).  Huge cockpit, easy to handle Assym, good for short handing.  Basic amenities below, permanent head, room enough to install a two burner stove if it doesn't have one yet.     

I can't seem to find a J/92 in the country, let alone our price range. Nice looking boats though. I love the J/35, but we have a size limit for storage at our club.

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15 minutes ago, USA 5184 said:

Here's a nice list of boats for you to look over at your desk as you wait for 5:00 to arrive:

S2 9.1: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/S2-9.1-'09-Key-West-Div.-Winner-1818731/Milford/CT/United-States?refSource=standard listing#.WqvuxWrwaUk

J/30: https://longisland.craigslist.org/boa/d/sailboat-30-racer-cruiser/6504913338.html

Beneteau 305: https://newlondon.craigslist.org/boa/d/beneteau-first-305-for-sale/6483116832.html

Tartan 10: https://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/boa/d/33ft-tartan-sailboat/6529339406.html

Nonsuch 30: https://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/boa/d/sail-boat-for-sale-nonsuch-30/6526695585.html

Frers 30: https://boston.craigslist.org/sob/boa/d/frers-30-sailboat/6531362300.html

All these boats fit your requirements. Don't discount the Nonsuch 30. Your wife will be the happiest with its interior, its extremely easy to signglehand, and although you will be in cruising class, they aren't a slouch and still really fun to sail especially off the wind. The Frers 30 might be a little far but they are great boats. The 9.1 is a nice option. I've sailed against this boat before and it did well but the interior looks different and doesn't look as nice as other 9.1's I've seen. I wonder if its hull #1 or a semi-custom stripped out interior.

 

That particular 9.1 has been for sale for a long, long time...even with the non standard interior, it must have some other issues.  Not as cruise friendly as a "standard" interior boat.

The J-30 looks very nice, and has a bunch of newer gear...

The 305 is an updated version of the First 30E.  Same hull, more sail area, slightly updated interior.  Rates 6-9 secs faster than a 30E, but still slower than that Kirie.  Notice the headliner is falling down.  Common issue on these boats.  The head and hull liner was foam backed vinyl.  Over the years the foam breaks down, and the liner starts to sag/fall off.  It leaves the adhesive and some of the foam still well adhered to the hull sides and overhead.  Its a PITA to clean that off...not difficult per se, but a ton of labor.  Then you need to either replace with something, or paint the raw fiberglass mat once you get it all clean.  Beneteau First Series of this era were well built.

Tartans 10s lack standing headroom, and have some core issues (as do many racer/cruisers of the era including J/30s, S2 9.1s, Pearson Flyers, etc, etc)...but are light air upwind machines.

I've always had a Frers 30 on my short list.  This is a good price for one.  Not that many were built (I think they were pricey in their day), so they don't come up for sale as often as some of the other boats listed in this thread.  Later boats built by Barry Carroll had build issues, these I think were early enough not to.  As fast or faster than a S2 9.1 or J-30.  Better looking than both in my opinion.  

Dunno nothing about the Nonsuchs, so will keep my mouth shut on that one :) 

 

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i agree - nice list. Thanks for sharing and helping with the shopping. I am definitely going to reach out about a few.

The Frers looks cool, but the fact that the pictures look to be picture of photos (presumably from when the boat was in better shape) worries me.

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11 minutes ago, Crash said:

That particular 9.1 has been for sale for a long, long time...even with the non standard interior, it must have some other issues.  Not as cruise friendly as a "standard" interior boat.

The J-30 looks very nice, and has a bunch of newer gear...

The 305 is an updated version of the First 30E.  Same hull, more sail area, slightly updated interior.  Rates 6-9 secs faster than a 30E, but still slower than that Kirie.  Notice the headliner is falling down.  Common issue on these boats.  The head and hull liner was foam backed vinyl.  Over the years the foam breaks down, and the liner starts to sag/fall off.  It leaves the adhesive and some of the foam still well adhered to the hull sides and overhead.  Its a PITA to clean that off...not difficult per se, but a ton of labor.  Then you need to either replace with something, or paint the raw fiberglass mat once you get it all clean.  Beneteau First Series of this era were well built.

Tartans 10s lack standing headroom, and have some core issues (as do many racer/cruisers of the era including J/30s, S2 9.1s, Pearson Flyers, etc, etc)...but are light air upwind machines.

I've always had a Frers 30 on my short list.  This is a good price for one.  Not that many were built (I think they were pricey in their day), so they don't come up for sale as often as some of the other boats listed in this thread.  Later boats built by Barry Carroll had build issues, these I think were early enough not to.  As fast or faster than a S2 9.1 or J-30.  Better looking than both in my opinion.  

Dunno nothing about the Nonsuchs, so will keep my mouth shut on that one :) 

 

I agree, It was me who was buying a boat in this size/price range that Frers 30 would be the first boat I'd be going to see. I don't know much about the 30, but I've spent enough time on a few 33's to know that they are great boats

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9 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

i agree - nice list. Thanks for sharing and helping with the shopping. I am definitely going to reach out about a few.

The Frers looks cool, but the fact that the pictures look to be picture of photos (presumably from when the boat was in better shape) worries me.

you're right about the Frers, I didn't notice that. I'd probably scrap the Tartan 10 and Nonsuch from the list too. That J/30 looks to be a well maintained and cared for boat. I looked at a few before buying my J/24 because at the time it was too much boat for me, but you might like the fact that it is pretty much a larger J/24 with an actual interoir

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4 minutes ago, USA 5184 said:

you're right about the Frers, I didn't notice that. I'd probably scrap the Tartan 10 and Nonsuch from the list too. That J/30 looks to be a well maintained and cared for boat. I looked at a few before buying my J/24 because at the time it was too much boat for me, but you might like the fact that it is pretty much a larger J/24 with an actual interoir

I reached out anyway about the Frers, you never know. But would probably ask for a couple updated photos before driving that far to see it. Same with the J/30, which has a time stamp of 2013 on each photo haha.

I am reaching out about the Beneteau as well. Fixing the headliner issue seems labor intensive, but in my wheelhouse - so if the rest is solid it may be a good option. Thanks again for helping with the shopping.

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On 3/8/2018 at 7:27 PM, Snaggletooth said:

Chuck the 31' limitte, buye a J35 and be happey.                                          :)

Snaggie's right.. buy mine! it would love to return to LIS.

but a J30 would better fit your current criteria and is a lot less crew intensive.

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Hinterhoeller built the Nonsuch.  Great builder and a great boat.   Take a look at it.

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