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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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bait

Youth evolution in sailing

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So in the US you aspire to be a competitive sailor. You start out at a very young age in an Opti or something similar with your Mom rigging your boat and being told all day which way to go on the race course by your role model the coach. You move on to the Club420, i420, maybe the laser or 29er. Maybe you learn to sail trapeze and spinnaker and are reaching out to colleges in hopes of getting that opportunities to sail in college only to find out the best boats you will sail in college will be a Scholastic 420, FJ, or some other similar to the picture below. And we wonder why we are no longer competitive sailing on an international level such as the Olympics. No surprise to me. Seems pretty basic. 

flame on

by the way this is in no way a snipe at Zim. They are providing a solid product as requested by their customers. They deserve to earn a good living providing a product to the marketplace. 

590BE5A7-94BE-4866-9F61-F695D563BCC2.thumb.jpeg.effb411ee323a92faabf5855974837b1.jpegHe Clun

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What do they sail differently in other countries that’s higher performance than the 29er? For youth I mean 

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And yet the College Sailing scene has a long history of churning out extremely talented sailors. Not to mention that College Team Racing is the most competitive in the world. If you look at any College All American, they have all done their time in the Radial and C420 and Opti fleets. Some move on to the 470, 49er, 49erFX etc...

The answer is not to replace the boats of college sailing, but rather to supplement the tactics and boat handling nature of College Sailing with the boat speed, strategy and high-performance aspect of a different kind of sailing(Skiffs, Multis, Foiling etc..).

 

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2 hours ago, ASP said:

And yet the College Sailing scene has a long history of churning out extremely talented sailors.

 

Fine but talented at what? Team racing is a tiny niche in our sport. Instinctive grasp of the rules and instinctive grasp of boatspeed for high performance boats are not the same thing. If you have to decide how to expend your 10,000 hours of practice to get good, I'd suggest getting really good at team racing is not the best choice. 

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2 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Fine but talented at what? Team racing is a tiny niche in our sport. Instinctive grasp of the rules and instinctive grasp of boatspeed for high performance boats are not the same thing. If you have to decide how to expend your 10,000 hours of practice to get good, I'd suggest getting really good at team racing is not the best choice. 

And I guess you could use a similar argument with the Olympic classes, that it's a niche as far as the full scope of sailing is concerned. 

Now I'm not saying that the Olympics are inconsequential as far as our sport is concerned, but to say that the United States is simply uncompetitive on an international level due to the fact that we haven't been performing well at recent Olympic games, is short-sighted. 

Take Stu Mcnay and Erika Reineke. Both were top-level college sailors who have made a name for themselves in Olympic classes(470 and Radial), but also in other boats(Stu Mcnay is a Melges 24 world champion.). 

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5 minutes ago, ASP said:

And I guess you could use a similar argument with the Olympic classes, that it's a niche as far as the full scope of sailing is concerned. 

 

No I don't think you could. Dinghy sailing is the predominant form of racing in most of the world.

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Uni sailing is a different game though, isn't it really? UK uni's sail Fireflys and Larks, which are pretty similar to the above. 

Cash strapped uni students want basic club boats that can be replicated across the country. You want something you can drop beginners in. You want something that can actually be team raced. 

I think the real drop off in sailing is when people leave uni. They could go back to fleet racing, but have to buy their own boat. In fleet racing a quick boat is essential, and one that is competitive cost a fair bit, whether it's a skiff, foiler, or snipe. When you're setting up a home, buying a car, etc. it's just easier to do bit of crewing on other people yachts, and before you know it you're lost to the dinghy sailing world until your mid fifty's when the kids are grown up and you have free time and free cash again.

If anything we (not just the US, but UK too) need more boats like the above, but club owned, to keep the young adults team racing until such a time they can buy a fleet racer. And we need to do more team racing, a format where having the fastest boat is not as critical. 

I sailed a 49er at uni and it almost broke me. I loved the boat, but it depressed me just how much cash I had spend to be competitive. I ended up doing so much coaching to pay for events and equipment that I could barely get any time in the boat. Without Olympic funding it was pretty much untenable. Part of me wishes I'd just done team racing.

I took two years out of sailing the end of uni, but was fortunate enough to get back in dinghy sailing fairly early after leaving uni. My wife bought the boat though... not many people are that lucky! I'm now 30 and am only just getting back in to skiff sailing. 

 

Edited by Mozzy Sails
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In the UK, the big upcoming talent isn't so much in university team racing, it's in the squads, which as I understand it,  the USA doesn't have. If you are a beginner at uni, the harsh truth is that it is already too late for you ever to get to be good, others have a 10 year lead on you.

I agree drop-out after uni is a big problem but not really the subject of this thread.

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16 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

In the UK, the big upcoming talent isn't so much in university team racing, it's in the squads, which as I understand it,  the USA doesn't have. If you are a beginner at uni, the harsh truth is that it is already too late for you ever to get to be good, others have a 10 year lead on you.

I agree drop-out after uni is a big problem but not really the subject of this thread.

Very very little of the UK youth fleets make it to Olympic classes, let alone the squads. If you're lucky one boat each year will transition. Yes the very few top names are in the squads, but the real numbers goes in to uni team racing. 

If you're talking about solely the top names, then yes the US may need a  (better) talent programme. But if you're talking about the other 99%, getting fast high performance uni boats is not the answer. 

2011 RS200 Nationals. 160 boats. I think you'll find a pretty even split between ex uni team racers and olympic squadies. Certainly nothing to suggest that you must fleet race to remain competitive at fleet racing. The standard is so good Olympic sailors come back to the UK fleet for training. 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

 Very very little of the UK youth fleets make it to Olympic classes

 

Not sure about that, someone is sailing those Lasers and Radials and they aren't all Masters. But anyway I wasn't talking numbers, I was talking about the serious five-ring wannabes and I think if you read what I said carefully, that was clear. You are taking this thread in a completely different direction which has been done to death many times before. dogwatch out.

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Lasers and radials are youth classes in the UK. The number you see at big events are not all masters, but they're certainly not all 18-21, more like 15-18. Plus it would seem odd to point at the laser as an example of a high performance boat? It's a low performance simple one design very much like other uni boats... just single handed. 

The 49er and 470 and Nacra you don't see sailed by many people other than those on Olympic funding. But the US has a sailing team too, with funding, no? Their five rings top top talents are there aren't they? 

It's the next step down, the people who would be capable of winning domestic titles, it's those who go in to uni team racing. And my point is I don't think you'd retain more of those by making uni racing about fleet racing high performance boats. In the UK those people are coming out of uni and are still competitive with the Olympic people, if they have access to fleet racing (see UK 200 fleet). Team racing hasn't killed their skills. 

Support for dinghy sailors after they leave uni may be a separate thread but it's clearly relevant. 

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I have long had the same complaint. When we send our football stars on to college, we don't suddenly make them play flag football. The reason I am always told is that it is about participation, not building better sailors through competition. For me, the participation should be with a sailing club that teaches sailing and has a lot of formal and informal events within the school. The racing against teams should be at the highest level. One problem is that the more advanced boats cost a lot and colleges don't spend much money other than the big five sports.

I still think it is sad that racing in college is mostly another reason to party and only a few teams or schools take it seriously, and that says more about the members of the team than it does about collegiate athletics.

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hey a thread about college sailing using the same old boats. Never had one of these before. Well, none this month anyway. I went to a pretty well funded school, and the fact of the matter is the boats get beat to shit so hard that anything more high tech is simply not going to make it. Unless you want to make college sailing accessible to only the richest schools, it needs to stay the way it is. There is nothing stopping you from pursuing sailing outside of college, i did plenty of it. Creep my post history, go back to before 2009 and you'll some of the most fervent anti college sailing opinions around. Having spent 4 years doing it, loving almost all of it (seriously, sailing when there's ice in the boat is just fucking stupid... do not miss), my opinion changed pretty damn drastically. 

Do you use your own boat or your club/programs boats? Do you do your own maintenance? Do you pay for your own repairs? How often do you sail? How often do you replace your sails? 

What i think would be cool is if there was some recognition for certain outside events - maybe national events olympic classes or something, but that's neither here nor there and again, would probably stack some favor to the richer colleges. 

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14 hours ago, bait said:

So in the US you aspire to be a competitive sailor. You start out at a very young age in an Opti or something similar with your Mom rigging your boat and being told all day which way to go on the race course by your role model the coach. ....     ...     ...     ...

 

I think I see the problem.

FB- Doug

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16 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

What do they sail differently in other countries that’s higher performance than the 29er? For youth I mean 

Not higher performance than a 29er, but much more accessible to a younger age range: 

 

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5 hours ago, sazx said:

Not higher performance than a 29er, but much more accessible to a younger age range: 

 

bark bark bark

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Interesting comments to the same old topic relating to the Scholastic  boats. Sorry for beating such a dead horse. Just that photo of a bath tub screaming upwind just got the better of me. Apologies to the masses here.. The US has been producing incredilble Scholastic sailing talent who ultimately get to sail at the university level for generations now. And a few of these current sailors have even moved on to compete at international events and  one even won the Rolex Yachts Women of the year in 2018. So the talent pool in college sailing is and has been incredibly deep. Just a shame they sail such old slow technology.

To Mustangs point by keeping the old boats around and replacing them with newer old style boats it does keep a realitively even playing field between the diversity of sailing programs in this country. Sailing the same old shitbox that everyone else sails does put an emphasis on sailing ability and not the boat. It is just sad in my option that this is the rut we have ended up in. I do understand the simplicity in maintaining this style of boat and the effort to contain costs which allows colleges to handle the cost of supporting a team. I just wish it was not this way.

And this has shown utimately in our Olympic results and why there are no real high level players currently in any Olympic Dinghy’s here in the US . My opinion of course! This is the reason they had to bring in an Australian to head up the US Olympic effort in sailing. And personally I hope he gets the support he deserves as he is a solid individual. Just look at the recent Miami World Cup event with a couple top college sailors testing the waters in the 470 and other classes only to be far back in the field. It is a huge ask for a current high level college skipper or crew to step up and  consider an Olympic bid after focusing on sailing any of the Scholastic boats. And with no real 470,49er, Fin, Nacra racing happening in the US currently you need to leave the country to learn how to be competitive in any of these classes. Since main stream high end dinghy sailing is not prevalent in the US there is no place for our sailors to learn the trade. So is college sailing a result of this or a cause of it?

the other comment that I think merits comment is that college sailing is just a cover for an excuse for a party. Like all sailing in its day  the party was an awesome experience and I can attest to that first hand. Even at the top end of our sport. That has changed from 20years ago and I know now with family sailing on varsity college teams that this is not a huge part of the current sailing scene they are involved in although I am sure it still is prevalent at some schools. It is very early morning flights to events or long car rides. Late night flights home with early classes the next day. As well as early mornings in the gym. Much of the higher end of college  sailing now more resembles the higher end of professional sailing than it does the weekend warrior in my opinion. So with all this effort there should be something more interesting to sail!

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What is this debate about exactly?  

I have to say... whining that college students don't get to play with high tech boats because nobody is willing to pay for them and that is the source of US Olympic under performance is just absurd.  More the point... completely wrong.

The facts of life are that college is not the career path to success in football (soccer) basketball or baseball....   (When the NBA changes their draft rules for HS ball players  no mandatory year wait to be a pro ...  the flim flam about college amateur athletics will start to come apart).   Add  sailing to the list of sports for which college is just a high level detour.    Pouring money into high tech college boats will do zilch for medals.

Malcom Paige was finally hired to build a program that ID's talent and commitment at an early age and get them the training that is needed for world competition.  He is modeling all of the major sports that pull talent early and train them outside the university system. (Not to mention the UK and Aussie  and French systems)  The million dollar question of course is.... can he do that in the states with USA  parents viewing... the elite college part of college sailing as more consequential then the elite sailing part.  I hope so...

Why do we care about this debate at all? .... as Gary Jobson noted... you support US Sailing and the Olympic Sailing team because you hope they inspire young and old in the rank and file to pursue excellence     The gee wiz  inspiration factor of olympic success  is certainly much much greater then college all american sailor..

Bottom line... if you care about elite performance AND the sport of sailboat racing. ...   fund the olympic movement... not college sailing.

  

 

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On 3/13/2018 at 10:00 PM, Connor.kainalu said:

We are getting young kids into o’pen bics, at least on the west coast

Not an improvement IMHO

Cool looking but suck for actual sailing, not a platform to build skills...... my HO of the Bic.

FB- Doug

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On 3/13/2018 at 10:14 PM, bait said:

[snip]

And this has shown utimately in our Olympic results and why there are no real high level players currently in any Olympic Dinghy’s here in the US . My opinion of course! This is the reason they had to bring in an Australian to head up the US Olympic effort in sailing. And personally I hope he gets the support he deserves as he is a solid individual. Just look at the recent Miami World Cup event with a couple top college sailors testing the waters in the 470 and other classes only to be far back in the field. It is a huge ask for a current high level college skipper or crew to step up and  consider an Olympic bid after focusing on sailing any of the Scholastic boats. And with no real 470,49er, Fin, Nacra racing happening in the US currently you need to leave the country to learn how to be competitive in any of these classes. Since main stream high end dinghy sailing is not prevalent in the US there is no place for our sailors to learn the trade. So is college sailing a result of this or a cause of it?

the other comment that I think merits comment is that college sailing is just a cover for an excuse for a party. Like all sailing in its day  the party was an awesome experience and I can attest to that first hand. Even at the top end of our sport. That has changed from 20years ago and I know now with family sailing on varsity college teams that this is not a huge part of the current sailing scene they are involved in although I am sure it still is prevalent at some schools. It is very early morning flights to events or long car rides. Late night flights home with early classes the next day. As well as early mornings in the gym. Much of the higher end of college  sailing now more resembles the higher end of professional sailing than it does the weekend warrior in my opinion. So with all this effort there should be something more interesting to sail!

To be fair, the ozzy's had a European coach in the 470's for years - i forget his name and country , just trying to illustrate even the best have to bring in the best. 

59 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Not an improvement IMHO

Cool looking but suck for actual sailing, not a platform to build skills...... my HO of the Bic.

FB- Doug

same. Too little flotation, too little freeboard, and mylar on a youth-program sail is just..... dumb. 

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3 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

To be fair, the ozzy's had a European coach in the 470's for years - i forget his name and country ,

Victor Kovalenko, Ukrainian. Whether Ukraine is part of Europe is a matter of opinion.

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Victor Kovalenko, Ukrainian. Whether Ukraine is part of Europe is a matter of opinion.

well we all know england isn't... 

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I think precious few potential Olympic sailors in the UK will be sailing school owned boats or doing school based sailing. The Olympic prospects come through the dinghy sailing clubs and then get siphoned off into the squad system long before that. So there's no point worrying about your college sailing scene because if they are in that then that's already too late for potential medal winners.

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On 3/13/2018 at 8:42 AM, mustang__1 said:

hey a thread about college sailing using the same old boats. Never had one of these before. Well, none this month anyway. I went to a pretty well funded school, and the fact of the matter is the boats get beat to shit so hard that anything more high tech is simply not going to make it. Unless you want to make college sailing accessible to only the richest schools, it needs to stay the way it is. There is nothing stopping you from pursuing sailing outside of college, i did plenty of it. Creep my post history, go back to before 2009 and you'll some of the most fervent anti college sailing opinions around. Having spent 4 years doing it, loving almost all of it (seriously, sailing when there's ice in the boat is just fucking stupid... do not miss), my opinion changed pretty damn drastically. 

Do you use your own boat or your club/programs boats? Do you do your own maintenance? Do you pay for your own repairs? How often do you sail? How often do you replace your sails? 

What i think would be cool is if there was some recognition for certain outside events - maybe national events olympic classes or something, but that's neither here nor there and again, would probably stack some favor to the richer colleges. 

 

Mustang, do you think club/school owned 49ers would survive a semester of college sailing? In my short time doing HS sailing, I doubt it. CFJ's and 420's do a damn fine purpose, they survive the job they were built to do.

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56 minutes ago, Ross said:

 

Mustang, do you think club/school owned 49ers would survive a semester of college sailing? In my short time doing HS sailing, I doubt it. CFJ's and 420's do a damn fine purpose, they survive the job they were built to do.

i don't think even a 29er would handle a semester of college sailing..... that was my point. I think you misread my post. I'll concede that the optimal weight of an FJ or 420 is too low for some people, but we'll never see high performance boats in college sailing - at best we'll just see boats that have an optimal around 315lbs instead of 280. 

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1 hour ago, mustang__1 said:

i don't think even a 29er would handle a semester of college sailing..... that was my point. I think you misread my post. I'll concede that the optimal weight of an FJ or 420 is too low for some people, but we'll never see high performance boats in college sailing - at best we'll just see boats that have an optimal around 315lbs instead of 280. 

I wildly understood your point!  I just wanted someone to say a 9er wouldn't survive! :D

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18 minutes ago, Ross said:

I wildly understood your point!  I just wanted someone to say a 9er wouldn't survive! :D

the issue isn't the sailing, it's the getting beat against the dock and other boats. the 29er hull will stay stiffer way longer than the non cored standard FJ and 420 hulls (i'm aware that Zim and maybe LP are now offering cored hulls), but the physical abuse in college sailing is.... abusive. 

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2 hours ago, Ross said:
On 3/13/2018 at 9:42 AM, mustang__1 said:

hey a thread about college sailing using the same old boats. Never had one of these before. Well, none this month anyway. I went to a pretty well funded school, and the fact of the matter is the boats get beat to shit so hard that anything more high tech is simply not going to make it. Unless you want to make college sailing accessible to only the richest schools, it needs to stay the way it is. There is nothing stopping you from pursuing sailing outside of college, i did plenty of it. Creep my post history, go back to before 2009 and you'll some of the most fervent anti college sailing opinions around. Having spent 4 years doing it, loving almost all of it (seriously, sailing when there's ice in the boat is just fucking stupid... do not miss), my opinion changed pretty damn drastically. 

Do you use your own boat or your club/programs boats? Do you do your own maintenance? Do you pay for your own repairs? How often do you sail? How often do you replace your sails? 

What i think would be cool is if there was some recognition for certain outside events - maybe national events olympic classes or something, but that's neither here nor there and again, would probably stack some favor to the richer colleges. 

 

Mustang, do you think club/school owned 49ers would survive a semester of college sailing? In my short time doing HS sailing, I doubt it. CFJ's and 420's do a damn fine purpose, they survive the job they were built to do.

There are some excellent college sailing programs and great college sailors in the US..... why are we not winning worlds and Olympics blah blah blah? I dunno, and I would suggest that somebody whose primary goal is to WIN THAT BIG TROPHY is not going to help with any long term success.

The way to succeed at anything, especially competitive sailing, is to strive for excellence. I was a total failure as a racing coach because I focussed on the kids understanding, and having enthusiasm for, what they were doing. Instead of drilling for perfection at the petty tasks of driving a dinghy around some buoys, I focused on getting them to figure out what they were doing, and paying attention to what their competitors were doing; and helping them figure out how to improve without me telling them what to do. I also "wasted time" showing them a lot of safety procedures.

A lot of coaches are just using kids to race as though they were running radio-control models. I don't give a fuck if the kids win any particular race or event, if they can understand the big picture and learn from their mistakes they will become real sailors -and- better human beings. As it so happens, some of the kids I taught have won some stuff. I am just as proud of the ones who sailed home in the aftermath of a thunderstorm, helping others and bring their boats back clean & dry.

The fact that program boats get beat to shit by the kids is one sign IMHO of how far wrong-headed the whole system is. It doesn't matter how many races you win, if you can't take proper care of your vessel then you are not a sailor IMHO.

FB- Doug

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My take?? The sort of boat has dip squat nada to do with the quality of the sailing game. 

There are no Sail boats of any kind being vigirously marketed to the North American public. 

When NA was a sailing power there were well over 100,000 new Sailboats built and sold here annually. 

The new boat sales since tgecturnnif the century  are less than 10% of that. 

in recent  years our two most popular singlehanded racing dinghies have become virtually unavailable. The builder refuses to sell oroductvyo it’s dealers. 

I firmly believe there is a market waiting for a supplier. In fact I have been  trying to be a “stocking dealer” fir each of  the boats with nearby local fleets.  ( My version is 100% restored used boats as most of our local fleets  play their game in boats no longer in production) 

so far, I have no stock because people keep buying the boats just before I finish the restorations. 

We need a North American builder or at least an enthusiastic supplier of boats we all agree to use for our. contests.  

We also need to host events and invite people to come play.

there is no “they” who is going to do it for us. 

So far this year I have put new sailors on Six Lasers, two Sunfish, an Opti, 2 Pearson 26, a Catalina 22, a Mac26, and an Ensign.

i also have a full time job, dogs, a vegetable garden, and have found time to write a few thousand posts in these forums

my annual Laser Regatta is Easter Weekend. 

dont give me your excuses about time. Get involved and do something or just STFU with your whining. 

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On 16/03/2018 at 7:26 PM, Steam Flyer said:

The fact that program boats get beat to shit by the kids is one sign IMHO of how far wrong-headed the whole system is. It doesn't matter how many races you win, if you can't take proper care of your vessel then you are not a sailor IMHO.

No one sets out to 'beat to shit' the boats. 

Uni sailing boats are sailed two or three days a week solid. And the days they are sailed are full on, with people swapping in and out. Apart from sailing schools / holiday boats they get the hardest wear. 

They're maintained by people who are low on funds without the finances of their parents for the first time. Even if you funded them better, you'd still have to employ a bosun to do the boat work who actually had the knowledge to maintain high performance boats. 

The type of boats currently used are chosen for simplicity. They have the most basic and ubiquitous controls and dacron sails. With a fender on the bow and modest speeds wear and tear is pretty low and most breaks can be fixed with a glass repair kit and limited knowledge. 

But the great thing is the game they are playing is team racing. So boat speed is much lower down the list of important factors for success anyway. Plus, the boats you use in competition are often drawn by lot, so there's no incentive to 'pimp' out a boat that could then be given to you competitor. 

Whilst the 29er is pretty durable for a skiff, it's not unheard of to go through a jib or main if you crash. Involve another boat  at the speeds skiffs are going and very quickly you have some major expenses from regular sailing. When I sailed a 49er it would go through main and kite sheets monthly.  Kites would last a couple of events and each pitchpole would be 50/50 for a pretty substantial sail repair.  The drop off in performance for a badly maintained 29er / 49er is much sharper than club 420 or the UK firefly / lark equivalent. 

But more significantly, if you change to HP boats for uni sailing, 95% of the sailors wouldn't have the bot handling skills to compete in a team racing format, so you'd have to change to fleet racing. In fleet racing boat speed is much more important. So suddenly you've gone from using simple cheap boats in a format where having cheap and simple boats is ideal, to more costly boats to maintain, in a format where maintaining them is more crucial. 

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1 hour ago, Mozzy Sails said:

No one sets out to 'beat to shit' the boats. 

Uni sailing boats are sailed two or three days a week solid. And the days they are sailed are full on, with people swapping in and out. Apart from sailing schools / holiday boats they get the hardest wear. 

They're maintained by people who are low on funds without the finances of their parents for the first time. Even if you funded them better, you'd still have to employ a bosun to do the boat work who actually had the knowledge to maintain high performance boats. 

The type of boats currently used are chosen for simplicity. They have the most basic and ubiquitous controls and dacron sails. With a fender on the bow and modest speeds wear and tear is pretty low and most breaks can be fixed with a glass repair kit and limited knowledge. 

But the great thing is the game they are playing is team racing. So boat speed is much lower down the list of important factors for success anyway. Plus, the boats you use in competition are often drawn by lot, so there's no incentive to 'pimp' out a boat that could then be given to you competitor. 

Whilst the 29er is pretty durable for a skiff, it's not unheard of to go through a jib or main if you crash. Involve another boat  at the speeds skiffs are going and very quickly you have some major expenses from regular sailing. When I sailed a 49er it would go through main and kite sheets monthly.  Kites would last a couple of events and each pitchpole would be 50/50 for a pretty substantial sail repair.  The drop off in performance for a badly maintained 29er / 49er is much sharper than club 420 or the UK firefly / lark equivalent. 

But more significantly, if you change to HP boats for uni sailing, 95% of the sailors wouldn't have the bot handling skills to compete in a team racing format, so you'd have to change to fleet racing. In fleet racing boat speed is much more important. So suddenly you've gone from using simple cheap boats in a format where having cheap and simple boats is ideal, to more costly boats to maintain, in a format where maintaining them is more crucial. 

I'm very familiar with college and high school sailing in the US, from what you (and others) say it seems fairly similar to the UK. Yes nobody intends to beat up the boats, but taking proper care is not a priority for the sailors. You can it in their docking and in all their handling of the boats. MY personal opinion is that this is due largely to human nature, it's the "other peoples' toys" syndrome. All the boats that I owned were treated like a Fabergé egg, this carried over into how I handle (or at least try) other boats. Scholastic sailors have others do all the real work and don't have to face the consequences of their actions for more than a few minutes. Not that they smash the boats up (well sometimes) but the accumulation of bumps and bangs and lack of care. The boats get sailed hard, sailed many many hours, and get (at best) institutionalized care.

Totally agree on simplicity. The demands of program sailing are such that boats -must- be relatively simple and as inexpensive as possible per hour of sailing. To me, THAT is the future of scholastic sailing, not some whiz-bang high performance boat. You can always go faster by spending more money; the challenge is to get in more sailing hours per dollar.

Moving scholastic sailors into high-performance boats and skiffs? Not sure I have any better idea how; in our area there was a group of families who purchased 3 for about 7 families and the kids sailed them under careful supervision of one of the fathers. They seemed to have fun and a couple of them got quite good but in the end it was the combination of expense and time commitment.

I would love to see more sailing, period! My involvement with youth sailing has been 100% as a volunteer and my motivation has been to turn young people into sailors, ideally into skippers. It's worked on a small scale but the experiment is still ongoing..............

FB- Doug

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The main gripes with college sailing should be that it is concentrated into two powerhouse regions with a speckling of good programs outside the NE. There is massive disparity between well funded varsity level programs and club teams that get a small stipend from the school and have to recruit kids that have never sailed before and teach them the basics on their own, this has gotten so lopsided that two regions may as well be dead.

My personal gripe with this is the effect it has on the local youth sailing scene, where the focus on these scholastic boats becomes paramount to the point that all other aspects of racing dinghies is ignored. Yes the boat handling is great but you can only do so much with a 3:1 vang and a pinned rig on a 20 minute course. You can drop any youth sailor who has campaigned their own laser/29er/c420 on the national circuit into a scholastic/collegiete boat and they will be able to handle it, the opposite way is much harder in my experience. 

and since it is important to always say something nice. I do like the fact that it gets a lot of kids out on the water that otherwise would not have access.

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I understand-as a high school sailor- how these boats get beat up (although we’re still sailing vanguards from the eighties, and they’re lighter than any new boat you can get nowadays), but it gets to the point where the technical skill plateaus, and you start getting bored. Eight years (I started hs sailing in 7th grade, so ten) years of roll tacks are too much. It would be cool if every event was in slightly different boats, and you’d have to figure out how to sail them fastest. I know that gives a home team advantage, but in a longer series, one regatta that’s slightly better doesn’t matter, especially if every team hosts.

 

Even better, drop a Tasar rig in an fj hull. The rig is sweet, the hull is indestructible 

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Going back to the original photo I just got a big chuckle of an epic picture of an FJ screaming up wind. In today’s sailing world it just seems to be an oxymoron. 

On the side of supporting the college programs I get it with trying to find some parity between those who have all the money and those who do not. Sailing this type old school boat I guess makes it easier for many teams to have the opportunity to at least make a run at the better financed teams. Although college sailing is a rigged system and having now been sucked into college sailing scene I see how rigged it really is. No gripe there as it just is what it is and if you understand you are on the outside then you just accept this world is rigged against you if you are not one of the chosen elite teams who control the process. Makes it easier to not take it so seriously and just enjoy the experience and make new friends along the way.

Sad part is so many high school kids think they may have a pathway  through to college sailing by performing at various youth events. The reality is that college coaches have such limited access to endowments and money to support recruiting that the majority of kids who get recruited in sailing are kids who’s parents can stroke a check for the full amount of college and in reality while there are some achedemic scholarships out there they can be very skinny. I know of current national champions who have not gotten a call by college coaches because of that financial matter. It is much easier for a college coach to recruit a good sailor with solid ability and a parent who can write the check than recruit a very high level sailor who the coach will need to find endowments and scholarships in order for the kids to attend that school. It is just economics.

Parents just need to understand the reality of how the world works and be realistic with their kids sailing. Go sailing because you love to compete and if the college sailing thing works out great, but if not- go sailing something that is fun to sail.

Sorry to derail the thread further. College sailing has a strong and prominent place in US sailing. Although it seems to me personally to be more of an endpoint to sailing for many people instead of a continuation or growth segment leading to something further. Although I have no idea what comes next in sailing for so many college sailors? Guess it could be the PHRF fleets, local one design fleets,  and recreational sailing. But hopefully the college sailors will at least still stay in the sport. 

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On 3/17/2018 at 5:02 PM, Gouvernail said:

 In fact I have been  trying to be a “stocking dealer” fir each of  the boats with nearby local fleets.  ( My version is 100% restored used boats as most of our local fleets  play their game in boats no longer in production) 

so far, I have no stock because people keep buying the boats just before I finish the restorations. 

We need a North American builder or at least an enthusiastic supplier of boats we all agree to use for our. contests.  

We also need to host events and invite people to come play.

there is no “they” who is going to do it for us. 

So far this year I have put new sailors on Six Lasers, two Sunfish, an Opti, 2 Pearson 26, a Catalina 22, a Mac26, and an Ensign.

i also have a full time job, dogs, a vegetable garden, and have found time to write a few thousand posts in these forums

 

Hey Gouv.   How many boats do you refit in a year?    How much did you do to those 14 boats?   You did all that in Q1!   

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Kids need to have significant extra factors to get accepted to competitive schools.    Sailing is one of those plus factors.   Because it is a NCAA sport... your application gets moved over to the athletic side of the admission pool in those competitive universities  and that is also an advantage.  So... its a good investment for parents.

Quote

it seems to me personally to be more of an endpoint to sailing for many people instead of a continuation or growth segment leading to something further

 Well that would be like many college sports..   You don't see post college football leagues with ex college players.  I think the connection between competitive collegiate sailing and lifelong sailing as a recreational sport is tenuous.  The second point could be that the racing on offer in your area is not intense enough.  If you are putting in 20 hours a week  sailing competitively in college,   you are hard pressed to duplicate that competitive experience post college.   Also, that competitive experience comes with a significant price tag.  I would not call this burnout and note that people can scratch their competitive itch in lots of ways.   I have often wondered if colleges with a large club sailing intramural programs   hook undergrads into the life long sport of sailing better at higher rates then the intercollegiate experience. 

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Whatever Steve Keen is doing with the LISOT 420s is what US olympic hopes rely on. When i was racing there were two top class boats (Both have now won youth world championships) that were sailing under his coaching. Take a lake at the results of Kiel week, world championships and european championships that year and it says enough. They also won medals in Sanya in the girls class and i believe silver off the top of my head in boys (either them or the Israelis). I do not know enough about college sailing in the US to comment on that but i feel the top guys should be kept out of it in order to focus on olympic classes. It's incredibly difficult to keep up with the likes of the brits kiwis and aussies as it is let alone if their top guys are sailing full time and you are trying to balance college team racing, study and olympic classes. In my opinion (which is generally useless) although the college sailing model has worked in the past, as Olympic sailing becomes more and more professional, the system is now out of date as if you want to achieve results at olympic level it is  a full time commitment and you cannot do both at once. I suspect this is what Malcolm page is encouraging but making the US sailing team a very exclusive team to be on, as is the case in Australia and New Zealand.

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Collegiate sailing is actually not a NCAA sport. It is governed by ICSA but many of the schools follow the guidelines outlined by NCAA athletics. 

 

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10 hours ago, Tcatman said:

Kids need to have significant extra factors to get accepted to competitive schools.    Sailing is one of those plus factors.   Because it is a NCAA sport... your application gets moved over to the athletic side of the admission pool in those competitive universities  and that is also an advantage.  So... its a good investment for parents.

 Well that would be like many college sports..   You don't see post college football leagues with ex college players.  I think the connection between competitive collegiate sailing and lifelong sailing as a recreational sport is tenuous.  The second point could be that the racing on offer in your area is not intense enough.  If you are putting in 20 hours a week  sailing competitively in college,   you are hard pressed to duplicate that competitive experience post college.   Also, that competitive experience comes with a significant price tag.  I would not call this burnout and note that people can scratch their competitive itch in lots of ways.   I have often wondered if colleges with a large club sailing intramural programs   hook undergrads into the life long sport of sailing better at higher rates then the intercollegiate experience. 

sailing is NOT an NCAA sport. At least some school will follow NCAA rules WRT sailing - mine did. The biggest issue with post college sailing, speaking as a post college sailor, has been location, time, and money. Pretty much in that exact order. I went from highschool in Florida, college in Rhode Island, and then moved to philafuckingdelphia because thats where our family and business is located. I still sail a lot - actually more than i "want" to, but its all lead boats. I don't have the time to drive somewhere to sail a dinghy, a place to store and work on the boat, and money is somewhat tight. I could free the money up at the expense of other pursuits and hobbies, but the constraints of time and location have dampened my enthusiasm for that sort of commitment. To your point, a lot of my friends from college don't want to race sporadically in small fleets, like would happen with 505's or some other not-laser dinghy, etc. 

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On 3/16/2018 at 3:26 PM, Steam Flyer said:

There are some excellent college sailing programs and great college sailors in the US..... why are we not winning worlds and Olympics blah blah blah? I dunno, and I would suggest that somebody whose primary goal is to WIN THAT BIG TROPHY is not going to help with any long term success.

The way to succeed at anything, especially competitive sailing, is to strive for excellence. I was a total failure as a racing coach because I focussed on the kids understanding, and having enthusiasm for, what they were doing. Instead of drilling for perfection at the petty tasks of driving a dinghy around some buoys, I focused on getting them to figure out what they were doing, and paying attention to what their competitors were doing; and helping them figure out how to improve without me telling them what to do. I also "wasted time" showing them a lot of safety procedures.

A lot of coaches are just using kids to race as though they were running radio-control models. I don't give a fuck if the kids win any particular race or event, if they can understand the big picture and learn from their mistakes they will become real sailors -and- better human beings. As it so happens, some of the kids I taught have won some stuff. I am just as proud of the ones who sailed home in the aftermath of a thunderstorm, helping others and bring their boats back clean & dry.

The fact that program boats get beat to shit by the kids is one sign IMHO of how far wrong-headed the whole system is. It doesn't matter how many races you win, if you can't take proper care of your vessel then you are not a sailor IMHO.

FB- Doug

It's impossible to care for the boats in the same way your personal boat will be cared for when practicing on the weekends. Time is pressed to get on the water after class, get off the water and to night class after practice, etc. A lot of school have floating docks, and no matter how careful you are when you need to dock in 25kts, there will be some ware and tare on the boat and sails - and inevitably at least once a semester someone will royally fuck up and plug another boat, the dock, or the shore/rocks while trying to dock in said conditions. We sailed 4 days a week, 6 if there was a home regatta. Not many boats or even people get that kind of abuse... For home regattas, no team is going to treat the boats as well as the host treats them, they will not treat the boats as gently - just a fact of life. Then of course there are on the water accidents that occur due to proximity, constant drilling, fatigue from classes/gym/sailing/cold. I've seen at least one 29er get royally plugged from drills - it was not a cheap fix. Saw a few lasers (i was one) that also had to have expensive repair due to a poorly conducted duck. I watched similar collisions and sailing and at worst they were typically gelcoat repairs to cover the exposed fibers back up... Save for that time at Tufts (my team wanged someone - thankfully wasn't my boat)

The first month we had a new fleet of FJ's we had to remove all rudder pins and have them welded in place because they kept breaking. I forget the mechanics of it now, going back several years - but these were brand new boats and they just couldn't take the amount of sculling needed to maintain a place on the line or downspeed maneuvering. To me, not a fault of the sailors for being careless or overly abusive but a demonstration of a) how shitty laser performance boats are   and b ) the harshenss of the conditions these operate in. 

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7 hours ago, HKG1203 said:

Whatever Steve Keen is doing with the LISOT 420s is what US olympic hopes rely on. When i was racing there were two top class boats (Both have now won youth world championships) that were sailing under his coaching. Take a lake at the results of Kiel week, world championships and european championships that year and it says enough. They also won medals in Sanya in the girls class and i believe silver off the top of my head in boys (either them or the Israelis). I do not know enough about college sailing in the US to comment on that but i feel the top guys should be kept out of it in order to focus on olympic classes. It's incredibly difficult to keep up with the likes of the brits kiwis and aussies as it is let alone if their top guys are sailing full time and you are trying to balance college team racing, study and olympic classes. In my opinion (which is generally useless) although the college sailing model has worked in the past, as Olympic sailing becomes more and more professional, the system is now out of date as if you want to achieve results at olympic level it is  a full time commitment and you cannot do both at once. I suspect this is what Malcolm page is encouraging but making the US sailing team a very exclusive team to be on, as is the case in Australia and New Zealand.

I more or less agree with you. The trouble is, and i had a few friends in high school that i thought would do campaigns that didn't, the draw of wanting to compete in college is pretty high. That's why i think USS and ICSA should work together to have a few OCR's (worlds, world sailing cup events, etc) count towards the college sailing point structure. Sure it'll probably skew a little bit towards the richer colleges, but who gives a shit - its not like they weren't in the running anyway. 

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Sorry.... but NCAA or ICSA as the  organizing authority  for intercollegiate racing are irrelevant to the issue here.   What is valuable is not the scholarship per se... its the admission slip to a selective college.  The previous post pointed out how little free  money was available and that junior accomplishments were not sufficient in and of themselves to make a collegiate sailing a career option.

Post college, time, location, money, opportunity are obvious constraints... but over the course of a lifetime... the factors just rebalance year by year.  Other factors are significant.    I think you make an important observation here... 

You point out that small fleets are a major negative factor as well as  the frequency of the competition.    I see that evolving from a college sailing season as a member of a team which culminates in a championship season after a focused semester  is a very different experience then competing in 5 major national events scattered around the country over a year as part of a one or two person team (where you have to provide all of the organization and infrastructure to make it happen).

Your other point is highlighting the differences between collegiate experiences racing a laser single handed sailing and the two,three person boats or larger crews racing keel boats.   Post college,  the experience in racing in these three types of classes diverge more so then  the experiences you had in juniors or in intercollegiate college sailing.

Clearly these are issues that clubs should consider in trying to build membership in the 20 to 30 demographic.

Another thing to consider is Why the hell should fleets care about what happens to intercollegiate college sailors in the first place?     Its sort of like worrying about what happens to those post college football players athletic careers.   Its a small number of people in the larger scheme of things.    Last century we used to count on these post collegiate all american sailors to step up and compete for and win medals.  Today... that model has cratered...     Perhaps, we waste too much effort trying to solve their problems???

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I think it is clear any sane person would take a free education at Any ivy league university at the risk of harming their olympic aspirations. The job prospects for doing so are too great to miss out on. If the Universities were to hand out scholarships to assist students in Olympic campaigns this may strengthen the situation but one has to ask what incentive the university has to do that. Hence bringing us back to square one.

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FYI,  the Ivy's don't offer athletic scholarships in any sport... they offer financial assistance packages that allow you to play the sport they recruit you for....  They have enough endowment money so that they can make your tuition free if they want.  Universities look to differentiate themselves... UMBC rose to fame by offering chess scholarships for their top tier chess team....  (upsetting UVA in the NCAA BBall tourney was an even bigger PR bonanza)  So... schools look for their marketing angle and buy the talent they need.  So... they could be fully supportive of an olympic focused sailor.

 

What remains to be seen is how a sailor with skill and drive to go for an Olympic medal can be slotted into a college intercollegiate program, and do the grades thing.  Of course the college coaches say they do this all the time...so...  a few examples would be greatly appreciated!

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On 28/03/2018 at 3:14 AM, Steve Clark said:

 Good sailors don't own boats.

SHC

No, their parents do...

 

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I studied for 2 years at Southampton Solent Uni in ENG which had won the Uni sailing title umpteen years in a row and I knew a lot of kids on the team so these were the best collegiate sailors in the country. They had come up sailing dinghies in club obviously but they were mostly not looking to Olympic sailing in their futures. In the UK the top 18-21 year olds who're trying to get to the 5 Ringed Circus are on the Olympic track sailing full time. I met a few 470 girls and they basically were full time sailors and I don't even know if they were going to school and they were not messing around with Uni sailing. We in the US need to get off this notion that Collegiate sports are the pathway to Olympic/top level international success. The truly talented, motivated 1% of 1% in the rest of the world are turning pro when they are 18 while our youth are messing around trying to get that scholarship where there training time is limited and competition is low quality.  Can I say #MissyFranklin.

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On 3/28/2018 at 10:13 AM, mustang__1 said:

 

It's impossible to care for the boats in the same way your personal boat will be cared for when practicing on the weekends.

Agreed. Program boats are simpler and should be brutish enough that they don't need to be babied the way we baby our own boats. However.......

Time is pressed to get on the water after class, get off the water and to night class after practice, etc.

Understood but I don't agree that this is necessary. Time to go sailing includes the time necessary properly rig and properly put away the boats. To me, this is integral to the responsibility that goes with being a skipper in the first place, and is universally true whether racing or not (here's the part where I often get blank stares and total uncomprehension..... what does he mean, sailing and yet NOT racing? Huh?). It's true that some programs, the assumption is that you're paying somebody else to do it for you, which is fine when true but is often assumed when it's not true. And it devalues sailing IMHO.

A lot of school have floating docks, and no matter how careful you are when you need to dock in 25kts, there will be some ware and tare on the boat and sails - and inevitably at least once a semester someone will royally fuck up and plug another boat, the dock, or the shore/rocks while trying to dock in said conditions. We sailed 4 days a week, 6 if there was a home regatta.

Agreed. Program boats get sailed a lot, and get sailed hard. They will get "used up" far sooner than privately owned boats, whoever carefully they are tended.

Not many boats or even people get that kind of abuse... For home regattas, no team is going to treat the boats as well as the host treats them, they will not treat the boats as gently - just a fact of life.

Unfortunately I have seen that you're correct, but I think this is a problem. If a visiting team is casual about banging up other teams' boats, then they should not be invited back.

Then of course there are on the water accidents that occur due to proximity, constant drilling, fatigue from classes/gym/sailing/cold. I've seen at least one 29er get royally plugged from drills - it was not a cheap fix. Saw a few lasers (i was one) that also had to have expensive repair due to a poorly conducted duck. I watched similar collisions and sailing and at worst they were typically gelcoat repairs to cover the exposed fibers back up... Save for that time at Tufts (my team wanged someone - thankfully wasn't my boat)

Agreed, again. This is inevitable. Not related to my grievances, other than that student sailors should be given more training and practice in seamanship and how to avoid bang-ups (more below).

The first month we had a new fleet of FJ's we had to remove all rudder pins and have them welded in place because they kept breaking. I forget the mechanics of it now, going back several years - but these were brand new boats and they just couldn't take the amount of sculling needed to maintain a place on the line or downspeed maneuvering. To me, not a fault of the sailors for being careless or overly abusive but a demonstration of a) how shitty laser performance boats are   and b ) the harshenss of the conditions these operate in. 

Yeah, it's also true that some boats aren't built to really sail. I prefer to avoid those boats, I like to sail hard.

Part of what I see in program sailing is that they don't teach anything but racing. "How to win races" does not make a kid into a sailor, and conveys few (possibly none) of the benefits that making kids into a sailors. For one thing, if it's done with beginners or kids who like sailing but don't care that much about racing, then it turns them off the sport anyway. Secondly, it's dangerous.

All sailing instructors teach safety. It says so, right here on the label. OTOH many (many many) instructors / coaches for racing teams consider it a waste of time to spend time on any skill/knowledge that won't help win races. Sometimes this bites them in the ass, when basic sailing skills that they probably assume the kids already have, are either not strong enough or not present at all; and the kid cannot even complete a race or gets spit out the back doing something dumb. Or when they stall the rudder at the start and bounce off a few others including maybe the RC boat. I've even heard a couple of supposedly highly prized racing coaches say, when only among the faithful of course, that "safety is slow."

In short, you could say I understand the frequent and heavy use of boats and their limited service life, and that much of this is unavoidable. However I'm just not in favor of many things I see in the system currently in place. The emphasis on cranking out races, and racers, sacrifices most of what is good in the sport and almost all of what is good about teaching kids to sail. It's a lot more efficient to teach 'em soccer, soccer players are whiners anyway.

But what do I know, shucks the two programs I'm involved with barely race at all and one of them teaches in Oday Javelins for craps sake............... we do turn out real sailors, though ;)

FB- Doug

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On 3/13/2018 at 8:59 AM, Steam Flyer said:
Quote

RE: "Moms rigging the boats" etc

I think I see the problem.

FB- Doug

The out of town parents are always surprised my kid is rigging his own boat. Buddy,,,,I dont even know how to rig it, you think i want to tie all those tiny knots??

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On 4/5/2018 at 11:41 AM, Steam Flyer said:

Part of what I see in program sailing is that they don't teach anything but racing. "How to win races" does not make a kid into a sailor, and conveys few (possibly none) of the benefits that making kids into a sailors. For one thing, if it's done with beginners or kids who like sailing but don't care that much about racing, then it turns them off the sport anyway. Secondly, it's dangerous.

"Adventure" programs have become more popular as a bridge for kids who need a break from racing, or as an entry point for kids who start late at age 10-12. A lot of people may disagree, but the equipment makes a huge difference. 

 

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I confess I haven't read every word in every post on this thread...

This looks like good news at least for the west coast and and the SF Bay specifically:

News Flash: US Sailing to Open Olympic Sailing Center on Treasure Island

April 5, 2018 – San Francisco, CA

What if there was one place where sailors and all of the specialists who support the sport could gather in one place to prepare for the Olympics, kind of like the US Ski Team has in Park City, Utah? And what if that place also reached out to offer sailing to ordinary kids and adults in the community, regardless of their experience or ability to pay? And what if that place was located geographically where sailors can do their thing pretty much every day of the year? A place with great universities and cutting-edge businesses? Sounds like a dream, but it's a dream that's about to come true.

The sailing hub described above was part of Carisa Harris-Adamson's vision when she founded Treasure Island Sailing Center almost 20 years ago. For the past year, TISC, the St. Francis Sailing Foundation and US Sailing have been working quietly to make the dream a reality. The center will be called FAST USA (Facility for Advanced Sailing and Technology) and will enhance, not conflict with, TISC's ongoing mission of "providing access, facilities, STEM education and life skills development to people of all socioeconomic backgrounds, skill levels and physical abilities."

Caleb Paine in the Finn
(Click on the photo to enlarge it.)

Caleb Paine, bronze medalist in the Finn at Rio 2016, moved to the Bay Area last year. He's been involved with making FAST a reality. 

© 2018 Will Ricketson / US Sailing
 

The "Puddles to Podium" initiative will offer a seamless pathway from novice to Olympic sailing. "FAST will take the kids from the advanced intermediate level and up," explained Peter Stoneberg, chairman of the FAST committee. "Carisa wants kids to be able to launch, rig and train next to Olympians.

"We got together with Malcolm Page, US Sailing's Chief of Olympic Sailing, and Jack Gierhart, CEO of US Sailing, and gave them a tour. Malcolm said, 'You guys blew our socks off with your dream and vision.' We will be mining Olympic gold on Treasure Island." We understand that Page will be in charge of FAST USA, and will be moving to the Bay Area, and several top national coaches and staff will be based here as well. 

Kids on a boat

"Put kids on boats and see their smiles light up," said Peter Stoneberg.

© 2018 Treasure Island Sailing Center / www.tisailing.org
 

Carisa Harris-Adamson, the chair of TISC's board of directors, sees an avenue for TISC kids to continue through the program, join the Youth Sailing Team, train to be a coach or teacher, or intern at a tech lab. "There will be opportunities for them to become leaders in the sport of sailing," she said.

 "This facility will bridge existing gaps between youth, high school, collegiate and high-performance sailing," said Bill Kreysler, president of the St. Francis Sailing Foundation. "FAST USA will be the first facility of its kind in the nation."

Carisa assured us that "Construction will not halt activity at TISC; sailing programs will run throughout." (It is our understanding that Larry Ellison donated components of Oracle Team USA's Bermuda America's Cup base to US Sailing and that the container-based structure is already in a warehouse in Oakland.) "The goal is to have the new facility open by fall. November will mark the 20th anniversary of TISC; we're planning an open house."

aerial of AC base in Bermuda

The America's Cup base in Bermuda.

© 2018 AC Bermuda / www.acbda.bm
 

In the meantime, the public can go check out TISC at their Opening Day celebration on Saturday, April 21, 11 a.m.-4 p.m. Admission, as well as sailing, kayaking and SUPing in Clipper Cove, will be free. There will also be games, face painting, crafts, concessions and music. See www.tisailing.org.

J/24 in Clipper Cove

Youngsters and grown-ups alike enjoyed a ride on the sheltered waters of Clipper Cove aboard a J/24 at TISC's Opening Day in 2017.

© 2018 Treasure Island Sailing Center / www.tisailing.org
 

- latitude / chris

 

 

 

 

 

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On 4/5/2018 at 2:41 PM, Steam Flyer said:

Yeah, it's also true that some boats aren't built to really sail. I prefer to avoid those boats, I like to sail hard.

Part of what I see in program sailing is that they don't teach anything but racing. "How to win races" does not make a kid into a sailor, and conveys few (possibly none) of the benefits that making kids into a sailors. For one thing, if it's done with beginners or kids who like sailing but don't care that much about racing, then it turns them off the sport anyway. Secondly, it's dangerous.

All sailing instructors teach safety. It says so, right here on the label. OTOH many (many many) instructors / coaches for racing teams consider it a waste of time to spend time on any skill/knowledge that won't help win races. Sometimes this bites them in the ass, when basic sailing skills that they probably assume the kids already have, are either not strong enough or not present at all; and the kid cannot even complete a race or gets spit out the back doing something dumb. Or when they stall the rudder at the start and bounce off a few others including maybe the RC boat. I've even heard a couple of supposedly highly prized racing coaches say, when only among the faithful of course, that "safety is slow."

In short, you could say I understand the frequent and heavy use of boats and their limited service life, and that much of this is unavoidable. However I'm just not in favor of many things I see in the system currently in place. The emphasis on cranking out races, and racers, sacrifices most of what is good in the sport and almost all of what is good about teaching kids to sail. It's a lot more efficient to teach 'em soccer, soccer players are whiners anyway.

But what do I know, shucks the two programs I'm involved with barely race at all and one of them teaches in Oday Javelins for craps sake............... we do turn out real sailors, though ;)

FB- Doug

i think we're speaking on two different wavelengths... I'm talking about college and high school race boats/teams - since thats what the OP was about (FJ's). In that environment, of being sailed by people who want to go out and win nationals, on the water 4 or 6 days a week, and being launched from a floating dock.... the boats are simply going to go get a bit beat up. By the time any of us made it on to the team, we were "real sailors" (whatever the hell that is). Those that weren't get washed out or flicked in the first couple weeks (also the time period that boat ends up bouncing the board off  a rock near the floating dock...). Are there college and high school teams that are sailing clubs trying to bring people into the sport? Sure. Are they racing my alma mater? Sure - at the local events. Did people who would have become lifelong sailors get the flick because they weren't good enough or didn't want to commit the practice and race schedule? yeah, it's possible.... but that's neither here nor there -- anymore than the soccer team giving the flick to someone who couldn't hack it. 

Some people sail only so they can get out and race. While i'm not one of them, there's also nothing inherently wrong with it... hell, even Anna T left sailing so she could go race in Iron Mans and shit. 

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2 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

i think we're speaking on two different wavelengths... I'm talking about college and high school race boats/teams - since thats what the OP was about (FJ's). In that environment, of being sailed by people who want to go out and win nationals, on the water 4 or 6 days a week, and being launched from a floating dock.... the boats are simply going to go get a bit beat up. By the time any of us made it on to the team, we were "real sailors" (whatever the hell that is). Those that weren't get washed out or flicked in the first couple weeks (also the time period that boat ends up bouncing the board off  a rock near the floating dock...). Are there college and high school teams that are sailing clubs trying to bring people into the sport? Sure. Are they racing my alma mater? Sure - at the local events. Did people who would have become lifelong sailors get the flick because they weren't good enough or didn't want to commit the practice and race schedule? yeah, it's possible.... but that's neither here nor there -- anymore than the soccer team giving the flick to someone who couldn't hack it. 

Some people sail only so they can get out and race. While i'm not one of them, there's also nothing inherently wrong with it... hell, even Anna T left sailing so she could go race in Iron Mans and shit. 

I dunno about different wavelengths but we do have a core disagreement..... or least a gap: beating the crap out of boats you sail is inherently bad. IMHO being careful (or at least, understanding and taking responsibility for risk assessment) with your vessel and it's contents are primary responsibilities for a skipper.

Elite racing programs -have- to care about winning races. But they don't have to lose what's important. Hell, if you just wanna win the easiest and surest way, then just fucking cheat. Or bribe your opponents to take a fall. It's all about the money, right? Aside from that, one of my own beliefs is that if you focus more on excellence and less on winning, you will win more (and enjoy it more) than if you just sweat the hell out of beating the other guy. Might even end up respecting, maybe learning, from the competitors!

Every year I give a brief speech when we hand out skipper's ribbons to the NJROTC cadets who pass (you'd find it laughably simple but it's a big deal to kids who never saw a real boat in person, up until the year before). I call it "what does it mean to be a sailor" and the short version is that a "sailor" is not a passenger. A sailor has skills and takes responsibility. IMHO being a sailor is the coolest thing you can be, except for being an astronaut.

All this sermonizing is easy for me, nobody ever asked me to coach an elite racing program

-DSK

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On 3/13/2018 at 1:46 AM, ASP said:

And yet the College Sailing scene has a long history of churning out extremely talented sailors. Not to mention that College Team Racing is the most competitive in the world. If you look at any College All American, they have all done their time in the Radial and C420 and Opti fleets. Some move on to the 470, 49er, 49erFX etc...

The answer is not to replace the boats of college sailing, but rather to supplement the tactics and boat handling nature of College Sailing with the boat speed, strategy and high-performance aspect of a different kind of sailing(Skiffs, Multis, Foiling etc..).

 

Well, when Norwegian olympic sailors enroll in private U.S. colleges and sail on the sailing team, it is quite a shock I am sure...

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http://turnto10.com/news/local/high-school-sailors-rescued-after-3-boats-capsize

Why Club 420s are the way they are.

Don't take the cheap shot and blame the kids or the coaches.  They are what they are, and mistakes get made.

These boats may have been sailing the next day, it depends on whether the masts are really bent or just bowed because they are out of the partners.

Also note, those boats are AT LEAST 11 years old because they have Vanguard stickers on them.

SHC

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3 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I dunno about different wavelengths but we do have a core disagreement..... or least a gap: beating the crap out of boats you sail is inherently bad. IMHO being careful (or at least, understanding and taking responsibility for risk assessment) with your vessel and it's contents are primary responsibilities for a skipper.

Elite racing programs -have- to care about winning races. But they don't have to lose what's important. Hell, if you just wanna win the easiest and surest way, then just fucking cheat. Or bribe your opponents to take a fall. It's all about the money, right? Aside from that, one of my own beliefs is that if you focus more on excellence and less on winning, you will win more (and enjoy it more) than if you just sweat the hell out of beating the other guy. Might even end up respecting, maybe learning, from the competitors!

Every year I give a brief speech when we hand out skipper's ribbons to the NJROTC cadets who pass (you'd find it laughably simple but it's a big deal to kids who never saw a real boat in person, up until the year before). I call it "what does it mean to be a sailor" and the short version is that a "sailor" is not a passenger. A sailor has skills and takes responsibility. IMHO being a sailor is the coolest thing you can be, except for being an astronaut.

All this sermonizing is easy for me, nobody ever asked me to coach an elite racing program

-DSK

I don't think we are on different wavelengths with JR sailing, but with college and racing program sailing. I;m a bit spoiled because in florida typically the learn to sail programs happen over the summer - and the racing  is in the winter. I only raced since by the time we moved to florida i already knew how to sail. The summer programs used 420's, optis, bics, bugs, hunter 140's, etc. No idea how they treated the boats. I have a vague memory that there was some rec' sailing in the winter too (the race team generally referred to it as "wreck" but i don't think that was a consistent program. Going back over ten years here. To your point, they treated the boats like shit - which was a problem for the race team because we used the same boats). While everyone pushed rule 42 to the limit, or beyond (since most rule 42 infractions are a matter of interpretation....), i never encountered out and out cheating WRT showing up with the intention of cheating. A few punks that wouldn't do their turns or whatever but never anyone i "needed" to protest (a few we sailed up next to and said "never again", though).

 

We're not out disrespecting the boats. They're put away very nicely every night, tied up tight, sails rolled neatly, lines coiled etc. The newbs that didn't make the cut sometimes did. But, when we're practicing, rails are going to touch - if for no other reason than changing crews or skippers, or holding the boat on the floating dock while you pull the rudder out and get the main down etc. Bow's and rails should never touch. Not to mention, the boat is going to be slid over the edge of the dock and up unto the cradle - it's not quite as gentle as floating the boat onto a dolly - and it can't be with a 250lb FJ or whatever the hell the pig weighs. The best sailors on the team tend to be the gentlest on the boats while racing - since they are inherently more graceful.... But, ripping roll tacks for two hours is going to end up with a lot of foot steps across the transom (look at a boat that's been through two or three college teams/donations - the floor gets very thin lol), a lot of rudder movements, not to mention the poor sails, and general flex cycles, and.... well, it's not an environment that a lot of boats are designed for. That said, with faster boats roll tacks take less of a precedence - but ripping tacks is always going to be an important part of training. MIT and Tufts have played around with different classes, there are now 420's that are built with a core (non Club legal but that doesn't matter in college), which should be interesting to follow - i've heard mostly good things but they showed up the year after i graduated. 

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one more post... that i've made a hundred times... 

 

I still think that it would be fun to make a "tweaky" college boat. Adjustable shrouds, mast ram, step, forstay... if you're going to make the crew sit there and hike lets have something to do! but, then you have that many more lines and blocks, consumables, to maintain and replace. Time and money. 

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On 15/03/2018 at 6:55 PM, mustang__1 said:

well we all know england isn't... 

Thanks for the reminder Stang<_<:lol:

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On 16/03/2018 at 5:51 AM, dogwatch said:

"We all" don't know anything of the kind.

What do we know?

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On 2018-03-13 at 8:47 AM, TeamFugu said:

I still think it is sad that racing in college is mostly another reason to party and only a few teams or schools take it seriously, and that says more about the members of the team than it does about collegiate athletics.

Why would anyone take sailing (or any other sport) seriously? There are no life and death issues involved. The focus should be on having fun.

On 2018-03-13 at 9:42 AM, mustang__1 said:

There is nothing stopping you from pursuing sailing outside of college, i did plenty of it.

Exactly.

On 2018-03-13 at 10:14 PM, bait said:

Like all sailing in its day, the party was an awesome experience and I can attest to that first hand. Even at the top end of our sport. That has changed from 20years ago and I know now with family sailing on varsity college teams that this is not a huge part of the current sailing scene they are involved in although I am sure it still is prevalent at some schools. It is very early morning flights to events or long car rides. Late night flights home with early classes the next day. As well as early mornings in the gym. Much of the higher end of college sailing now more resembles the higher end of professional sailing than it does the weekend warrior in my opinion.

That certainly sounds attractive! :wacko:

On 2018-03-16 at 3:26 PM, Steam Flyer said:

The fact that program boats get beat to shit by the kids is one sign IMHO of how far wrong-headed the whole system is. It doesn't matter how many races you win, if you can't take proper care of your vessel then you are not a sailor IMHO.

Well said, Doug.

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On 2018-04-09 at 11:57 AM, Steam Flyer said:

[A] "sailor" is not a passenger. A sailor has skills and takes responsibility. IMHO being a sailor is the coolest thing you can be, except for being an astronaut.

But so many astronauts are "payload specialists", i.e. passengers. Nothing cool about that.

Sailors rule!

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On 2018-03-28 at 10:13 AM, mustang__1 said:

A lot of school have floating docks, and no matter how careful you are when you need to dock in 25kts, there will be some ware and tare on the boat and sails

TCU grad?

Screen-Shot-2016-05-08-at-1.53.02-PM.png

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Fare comment. Their kneads to be mower attention paid sum of the thyme to what we right.

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On 4/10/2018 at 5:10 AM, mustang__1 said:

one more post... that i've made a hundred times... 

 

I still think that it would be fun to make a "tweaky" college boat. Adjustable shrouds, mast ram, step, forstay... if you're going to make the crew sit there and hike lets have something to do! but, then you have that many more lines and blocks, consumables, to maintain and replace. Time and money. 

You have obviously never sailed a digital S/N team sailing course. You barely have enough time to play with yourself forget about a bunch of lines to adjust this and that. Its all about tactics and short distance boat speed. While you are fondling you mast ram, I'll be sitting on your hip sucking your wind until you beg me to stop. Please say "Daddy" 

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31 minutes ago, CaptainAhab said:

, I'll be sitting on your hip sucking your wind until you beg me to stop. Please say "Daddy" 

usually its the one doing the sucking that has to say daddy

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2 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

You have obviously never sailed a digital S/N team sailing course. You barely have enough time to play with yourself forget about a bunch of lines to adjust this and that. Its all about tactics and short distance boat speed. While you are fondling you mast ram, I'll be sitting on your hip sucking your wind until you beg me to stop. Please say "Daddy" 

4 years of it my dude. Half the season in the US is focused on team racing, half is focused on fleet racing. Plenty of people choke on my......lack of wind-that-i-was-causing-them. 

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7 hours ago, Svanen said:

But so many astronauts are "payload specialists", i.e. passengers. Nothing cool about that.

Sailors rule!

Quibble- "payload specialists" have a job, it just has nothing to do with driving the bus. They're there for the ride into space where they do their job.

 

On 4/9/2018 at 3:40 PM, mustang__1 said:

one more post... that i've made a hundred times... 

 

I still think that it would be fun to make a "tweaky" college boat. Adjustable shrouds, mast ram, step, forstay... if you're going to make the crew sit there and hike lets have something to do! but, then you have that many more lines and blocks, consumables, to maintain and replace. Time and money. 

Well, that might be cool but it would only matter if the boat was sporty enough that such adjustments made that big of a difference.... actually this works for the other end of the spectrum, how about racing in one-design versions of 1970s IOR boats? Either way it would be costly.

A few years ago, I had the idea of taking cast-off 5O5s and simplifying them into advanced junior boats (there's a thread about it). The problem is that they take a good bit more beef (this was not a problem for my programs, I literally have football players some years) and even if you simplify them, you still need things like the mast ram and a split jib halyard tensioner and split vang and a monster c'ham. So the boats end up with a lot of adjustments anyway..... certainly a lot of fun though, and a perfect remedy for kids that are jaded with FJs.

FB- Doug

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I read somewhere recently (or it may have been a video interview) that the Un-Regatta Program in the O’pen BIC had a much higher conversion rate of junior sailors into youth and senior programs than the traditional Opti>420/Laser Radial training programs that just concentrate on racing.

Can anyone point me to any online resources with data to back up this claim?

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14 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Quibble- "payload specialists" have a job, it just has nothing to do with driving the bus. They're there for the ride into space where they do their job.

 

Well, that might be cool but it would only matter if the boat was sporty enough that such adjustments made that big of a difference.... actually this works for the other end of the spectrum, how about racing in one-design versions of 1970s IOR boats? Either way it would be costly.

A few years ago, I had the idea of taking cast-off 5O5s and simplifying them into advanced junior boats (there's a thread about it). The problem is that they take a good bit more beef (this was not a problem for my programs, I literally have football players some years) and even if you simplify them, you still need things like the mast ram and a split jib halyard tensioner and split vang and a monster c'ham. So the boats end up with a lot of adjustments anyway..... certainly a lot of fun though, and a perfect remedy for kids that are jaded with FJs.

FB- Doug

actually i'd argue the boat  can be slower... Look at the Star or Etchels, etc - very tweaky boats but not very fast (i can't think of any tweaky and slow dinghies - but i think the Britts have a few such classes?). Certainly fast boats take advantage of tweakiness too, but a 29er is bones simple but is still quite fast - especially for only 14'lwl. A 505 is still a very powered up hull form and rig designed for massive righting moment, i wouldn't expect it to work well as a hiker. 

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3 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

actually i'd argue the boat  can be slower... Look at the Star or Etchels, etc - very tweaky boats but not very fast (i can't think of any tweaky and slow dinghies - but i think the Britts have a few such classes?). Certainly fast boats take advantage of tweakiness too, but a 29er is bones simple but is still quite fast - especially for only 14'lwl. A 505 is still a very powered up hull form and rig designed for massive righting moment, i wouldn't expect it to work well as a hiker. 

You're right, the "simplified 5O5" had relatively narrow sailing window as a hiker. But it was a lot of fun and it taught the kids to pay attention

There are some tweaky dinghies, the Lightning is a great example and I wouldn't call it slow (not a double trap rocket, of course). The Etchells is not only tweaky but has such a powerful rig that you need lots of purchase and a fair amount of muscle to sail it. The tweaks make a big difference in both pointing and speed, I think part of it is the extreme aspect ratio. The few times I've raced Etchells it did not seem slow at all, we were beating 40-footers to the windward mark:D

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

You're right, the "simplified 5O5" had relatively narrow sailing window as a hiker. But it was a lot of fun and it taught the kids to pay attention

There are some tweaky dinghies, the Lightning is a great example and I wouldn't call it slow (not a double trap rocket, of course). The Etchells is not only tweaky but has such a powerful rig that you need lots of purchase and a fair amount of muscle to sail it. The tweaks make a big difference in both pointing and speed, I think part of it is the extreme aspect ratio. The few times I've raced Etchells it did not seem slow at all, we were beating 40-footers to the windward mark:D

FB- Doug

to be fair.... a C420 could beat a cal-40 to the top mark... 

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On 4/16/2018 at 11:38 PM, Pewit said:

I read somewhere recently (or it may have been a video interview) that the Un-Regatta Program in the O’pen BIC had a much higher conversion rate of junior sailors into youth and senior programs than the traditional Opti>420/Laser Radial training programs that just concentrate on racing.

Can anyone point me to any online resources with data to back up this claim?

Bics, Teras too.

 

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