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laugh or cry?

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That Vestas actually asked for redress after running into a fishing boat with one dead, well we don't know whether to laugh or cry - was it absurd or brilliant? We do know that the redress protest did get thrown out!

As we understand how this went down (and god knows we don't have all the facts)  there was a meeting the other 6 teams had before the hearing.  They felt that basically Vestas didn’t have a leg to stand on as they could not satisfy Rule 62.1 by proving it was “no fault of their own”. We hear that one telling point is they used as a witness someone looking below the genoa, but couldn’t produce a witness who was in the bow looking straight ahead.

What do you think?

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Death aside...I don't see where Vestas is entitled to redress. They wouldn't get redress if they hit a container or other obstruction. Even if the fishing boat was unlit, Vestas was sailing through a fleet of fishing boats, and should have been keeping a close lookout...or reduced speed if visibility was a concern.

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Imagine you are the RC:

Hey, we ran into something, it slowed us down, we want redress.

RC: Tough shit, look where you are going next time. Also there is this invention called radar. Might want to look into it :rolleyes:

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They said the investigations were closed. They're moving on and asking how the racing rules apply to the situation which they clearly do. The rules invoke the COLREGs at the beginning of Part 2. Containers aren't governed by the COLREGs, but other vessels are so Koch and Kent, this is an important nuance. I think it is somewhat logical and speaks to Duncan's comment above. Calling it logical doesn't mean I agree with it!

Certainly if investigations found them at fault they never would have requested.

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They are, at very least, partially to blame. Applying for redress is shameful. 

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We can only suppose that the official hearing cleared them of any wrong doing (for one thing the crew aren't sitting in a Chinese prison) and if that is the case then they have every right to claim, and probably be given, redress. 

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34 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

We can only suppose that the official hearing cleared them of any wrong doing (for one thing the crew aren't sitting in a Chinese prison) and if that is the case then they have every right to claim, and probably be given, redress. 

Such an honest lot, the Chinese Govt. 

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/1e02022e-259b-11e8-b27e-cc62a39d57a0

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/china-backs-law-allowing-xi-to-rule-for-life-kvbpcv93b

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/930478/world-war-3-south-china-sea-spratly-islands-china-expansion/amp

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We really love this team but ouch. I'm pretty sure that this race is all about advertising and how does this play with the fans?

Greg

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

We can only suppose that the official hearing cleared them of any wrong doing (for one thing the crew aren't sitting in a Chinese prison) and if that is the case then they have every right to claim, and probably be given, redress. 

 

1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

We can only suppose that the official hearing cleared them of any wrong doing (for one thing the crew aren't sitting in a Chinese prison) and if that is the case then they have every right to claim, and probably be given, redress. 

+ 1

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The rule says "another boat" which doesn't include containers or other drift.  If you get run over by another boat, it doesn't have to be a racing sailboat to qualify.  I think they have a reasonable case, but I like the question as to whether they really had sufficient watch keeping.  I don't think it's possible with that sail combination so would argue they don't satisfy the "no fault" condition.

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Pretty easy to end speculation. Just air the footage... 

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Yup..

62 REDRESS
62.1 A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider
redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score or
place in a race or series has been or may be, through no fault of her own,
made significantly worse by

..
(b) injury or physical damage because of the action  .. of a vessel not racing that was required to keep clear;

 

.. and as I understand it, under IRPCAS Vestas was the stand-on vessel.

 

That being said - failure to see the fishing boat and avoid the collision is a problem.

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1 hour ago, SCANAS said:

Not commenting on the soundness of any finding, simply that if they have been found blameless they have grounds. Whether they are blameless on not I am sure will continue to keep this place humming along for months to come. It's like the Hobart start. Comarchie had every right to protest WOXI even though the incident had nothing to do with them being beaten over the line. Rules are rules and even when you are being a ball sack by useing them. 

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3 hours ago, Editor said:

laugh-or-cry.png

That Vestas actually asked for redress after running into a fishing boat with one dead, well we don't know whether to laugh or cry - was it absurd or brilliant? We do know that the redress protest did get thrown out!

As we understand how this went down (and god knows we don't have all the facts)  there was a meeting the other 6 teams had before the hearing.  They felt that basically Vestas didn’t have a leg to stand on as they could not satisfy Rule 62.1 by proving it was “no fault of their own”. We hear that one telling point is they used as a witness someone looking below the genoa, but couldn’t produce a witness who was in the bow looking straight ahead.

What do you think?

Lock 'em up!

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59 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Not commenting on the soundness of any finding, simply that if they have been found blameless they have grounds. Whether they are blameless on not I am sure will continue to keep this place humming along for months to come. It's like the Hobart start. Comarchie had every right to protest WOXI even though the incident had nothing to do with them being beaten over the line. Rules are rules and even when you are being a ball sack by useing them. 

"In a separate hearing, the International Jury did not award redress to Vestas 11th Hour Racing, finding insufficient evidence to support granting the request." 

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No need to shout mate...

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Ffs the case for redress was impossible.

1000 points to the kommitee!

Carry on!

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I’ve lost all respect for the sailors on Vestas.

The fact is we don’t know the facts. That’s a problem not of our making because the team and the event have elected to hide the facts, for whatever reason.

For those who say “so what’s another dead fisherman, happens every day”, those are mostly industrial accidents.

Yes this was an accident. But all the fisherman got out of this was thoughts and prayers from the team and the event.

But yet a bunch of people paid to have fun pretend they are emotionally recovered from the fact they killed a guy who was working while they were out being paid to have fun, and have the audacity to ask redress. Talk about a bunch of spoiled, entitled, arrogant pricks.

I’ve lost all respect for those associated with this team.

 

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3 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

.. and as I understand it, under IRPCAS Vestas was the stand-on vessel.

Bullshit.  They failed Rule 5, 6, 7, and 8.  And Rule 18(b)

  • a sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of :-
  1. a vessel not under command;
  2. a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre;
  3. a vessel engaged in fishing;

They were so wrong on many levels that the concept of Stand on hardly applies.

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fatality on your hands and your asking for redress ...................

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51 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

I’ve lost all respect for the sailors on Vestas.

The fact is we don’t know the facts. That’s a problem not of our making because the team and the event have elected to hide the facts, for whatever reason.

For those who say “so what’s another dead fisherman, happens every day”, those are mostly industrial accidents.

Yes this was an accident. But all the fisherman got out of this was thoughts and prayers from the team and the event.

But yet a bunch of people paid to have fun pretend they are emotionally recovered from the fact they killed a guy who was working while they were out being paid to have fun, and have the audacity to ask redress. Talk about a bunch of spoiled, entitled, arrogant pricks.

I’ve lost all respect for those associated with this team.

 

 

so what, exactly, would quell your outrage ?

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A blowjob might at least distract him for a while.

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Problems abound here with that BJ solution LB..sunkiss's sister has called it quits in that department and Randumb has decided he is sick of being the only gay in the village. I have no idea where it goes from here.

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Hey Jacky-baby, how is the Troll-busting business going?

giphy.gif

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

A blowjob might at least distract him for a while.

Aren’t you the same dipshit that got all weepy when your teenage sons friend died a couple of months ago?  

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2 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

 

so what, exactly, would quell your outrage ?

Maybe if they had just kept their head down and not acted like a bunch of spoiled little assholes and gotten on with things it would be easier to accept their lack of factual information about what really happened. 

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20 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Does this include hitting the reef last VOR ?

Different sailing team

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Bad form Vestas. Say what you will about the rules and laws at play here, it's just bad that you even asked for redress. I don't know what Vestas is or what they sell by I'll avoid their goods and services from here on out. I hope you're happy 

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11 hours ago, sunseeker said:

I’ve lost all respect for the sailors on Vestas.

I’ve lost all respect for those associated with this team.

My god they will be devastated! Imagine how they will feel having lost the respect of an Internet wannabe, not just once, but twice in the same post! Oh the shame.

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7 hours ago, sunseeker said:

Aren’t you the same dipshit that got all weepy when your teenage sons friend died a couple of months ago?  

Yep. I feel no shame in expressing my feelings when a close family friend dies in a tragic accident.  How are you feeling about getting so butthurt about a group of sportsmen and women that you will never meet?  I will bet you haven't been this upset since Robbie Williams left Take That. 

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7 hours ago, RATM said:

Bad form Vestas. Say what you will about the rules and laws at play here, it's just bad that you even asked for redress. I don't know what Vestas is or what they sell by I'll avoid their goods and services from here on out. I hope you're happy 

Like you were going to buy a 300 ft windmill before you read this ..... yeah right.

Now please go and educate yourself and then ............. fuck off.

 

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7 hours ago, RATM said:

Bad form Vestas. Say what you will about the rules and laws at play here, it's just bad that you even asked for redress. I don't know what Vestas is or what they sell by I'll avoid their goods and services from here on out. I hope you're happy 

So that's the last wind farm that you will be buying from them?

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As to the fishing vessel, they're governed by Colregs Rule 5, in addition to the RRS and the sailing instructions.

Which lookout rule they didn't comply with (ditto Rules 7 and 8, which depend on Rule 5 being practiced in the first place).  Which means (to me anyway) it can't be "no fault of their own".  They have at least contributory fault in that collision, whether F/V was stand-on ("fishing"), or not fishing and give-way as a powerboat.   Stand-on is still required to keep a proper lookout by sight and hearing as well as by all available means. 

But what the hell do I know, I'm only a maritime lawyer handling collision cases....

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3 minutes ago, nolatom said:

As to the fishing vessel, they're governed by Colregs Rule 5, in addition to the RRS and the sailing instructions.

Which lookout rule they didn't comply with (ditto Rules 7 and 8, which depend on Rule 5 being practiced in the first place.  Which means (to me anyway) it can't be "no fault of their own".  They have at least contributory fault in that collision, whether F/V was stand-on ("fishing"), or not fishing and give-way as a powerboat.   Stand-on is still required to keep a proper lookout by sight and hearing as well as by all available means. 

But what the hell do I know, I'm only a maritime lawyer handling collision cases....

You see the fishing vessel governed also by the RRS and sailing instructions.  Maybe you could explain that one?

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Redress ?     For what ?

Rescuing the people that THEY put in the water ?

I suppose I understand how some competitive/sports-manager type might have thought about trying it,  but I can't BELIEVE the sponsor /marketing types permitted them to actually file for it !!

I mean,  you would think that by now they'd at least be practiced in the act of finishing the event even though out of contention.

In the previous case,  with honor (if not a little red-faced)  - but this - well...this is .... unfortunate.

"It looks bad because it IS bad."

 

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10 minutes ago, F'g Dinosaur said:

Wow....how nice.......where did you study and learn Mandarin ?

same place you studied law.

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10 hours ago, LB 15 said:

A blowjob might at least distract him for a while.

Go ahead!

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21 minutes ago, nolatom said:

 

But what the hell do I know, I'm only a maritime lawyer handling collision cases....

 

Time to team up with Lady Boy, he's an EXPERT WITNESS.......... apparently;)

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

 

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Question to the floor,  Does the Redress request have to been signed off on, by the Skipper or can the shore team or the sewer rat apply for redress?

Lets pin this CUNT ACT down to the CUNT

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13 minutes ago, overlay said:

Question to the floor,  Does the Redress request have to been signed off on, by the Skipper or can the shore team or the sewer rat apply for redress?

Lets pin this CUNT ACT down to the CUNT

Surly you would know that. You know everything.

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From what we don't know so far due to the complete sanitisation of actual detail, I get the feeling that the fishing boat was running no lighting (which would be no surprise, maintenance costs for poor fishermen and all).

If that were the case, is it conceivable that there could be grounds for redress if the fishing boat was practically invisible? 

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25 minutes ago, 10thTonner said:

Go ahead!

I will give you the same advice I give when training instructors. If you are not naturally funny, don't try to be. This is SA mate. Need to lift you game to play in this league.

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5 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Surly you would know that. You know everything.

Slowly slowly catchee monkey.

This thread has got at least 100 pages to run.

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If the fishing boat hit them, or otherwise got in their say, then Redress.  Otherwise, they are at fault.

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1 hour ago, overlay said:

Question to the floor,  Does the Redress request have to been signed off on, by the Skipper or can the shore team or the sewer rat apply for redress?

Lets pin this CUNT ACT down to the CUNT

So you have brought down your findings into the crash after a thorough investigation, reviewing all the facts and interviewing the eye witnesses?  And your expert opinion is...'Cunt act'. (In capitals)

Outstanding. If you don't even understand the process for seeking redress perhaps it might be better just to keep your hands off your keyboard, and on your dick where they do their best work.

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1 hour ago, overlay said:

Time to team up with Lady Boy, he's an EXPERT WITNESS.......... apparently;)

26bqt8.jpg

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What a cunt move.  Seriously?

Even being Danish and working with Vestas I can honestly say: Get the fuck out of here - you seriously have no fucking clue how to behave

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10 hours ago, sunseeker said:

Aren’t you the same dipshit that got all weepy when your teenage sons friend died a couple of months ago?  

Fucking arsehole. <_<

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10 hours ago, RATM said:

Bad form Vestas. Say what you will about the rules and laws at play here, it's just bad that you even asked for redress. I don't know what Vestas is or what they sell by I'll avoid their goods and services from here on out. I hope you're happy 

Don’t live in parts of europe, there’s a chance that when you turn the light on it maybe powered by their product. 

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12 hours ago, sunseeker said:

Aren’t you the same dipshit that got all weepy when your teenage sons friend died a couple of months ago?  

you sir, are a pile of shit. do everyone a favor and wash your mouth out with a revolver.

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5 minutes ago, bigrpowr said:

you sir, are a pile of shit. do everyone a favor and wash your mouth out with a revolver.

So it’s ok for a lot of people here, starting with LB 15 to think it’s somehow ok for a racing yacht to have an accident which kills an innocent guy, that boat and crew clam up if not almost lie about the facts, LB 15 can act like a tough cunt and make it sound like the deceased is disposable, while weeks ago he turns into a decent human being as opposed to the piece of low life shit he plays in characters here, I call him in it, and I’m the asshole?

You can’t have it both ways.

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3 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

So it’s ok for a lot of people here, starting with LB 15 to think it’s somehow ok for a racing yacht to have an accident which kills an innocent guy, that boat and crew clam up if not almost lie about the facts, LB 15 can act like a tough cunt and make it sound like the deceased is disposable, while weeks ago he turns into a decent human being as opposed to the piece of low life shit he plays in characters here, I call him in it, and I’m the asshole?

You can’t have it both ways.

yeah man, you are an asshole with the previous comment. your comparison is NOT the same. you obviously have an axe to grind which makes your argument irrelevant . there was really no need for that.

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8 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

So it’s ok for a lot of people here, starting with LB 15 to think it’s somehow ok for a racing yacht to have an accident which kills an innocent guy, that boat and crew clam up if not almost lie about the facts, LB 15 can act like a tough cunt and make it sound like the deceased is disposable, while weeks ago he turns into a decent human being as opposed to the piece of low life shit he plays in characters here, I call him in it, and I’m the asshole?

You can’t have it both ways.

I don't agree that you're an asshole.  More of a cunt.

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27 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

So it’s ok for a lot of people here, starting with LB 15 to think it’s somehow ok for a racing yacht to have an accident which kills an innocent guy, that boat and crew clam up if not almost lie about the facts, LB 15 can act like a tough cunt and make it sound like the deceased is disposable, while weeks ago he turns into a decent human being as opposed to the piece of low life shit he plays in characters here, I call him in it, and I’m the asshole?

You can’t have it both ways.

Yes indeed you are an arsehole. And a limp dicked oily little toad, but most of all you are a truly stupid cunt. I , like every other person here except you apparently, have no idea if they contributed to the accident or not. I never offered an opinion on that, simply stating the fact that if an investigation had cleared them they had every right to seek redress. So quick are you to scream in mock outrage that you don't even understand what you are flaming about. 

And now here is your card...

 

bizcardmaker-com-theme-topline--dark-blue.jpg

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10 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Yes indeed you are an arsehole. And a limp dicked oily little toad, but most of all you are a truly stupid cunt. I , like every other person here except you apparently, have no idea if they contributed to the accident or not. I never offered an opinion on that, simply stating the fact that if an investigation had cleared them they had every right to seek redress. So quick are you to scream in mock outrage that you don't even understand what you are flaming about. 

And now here is your card...

 

bizcardmaker-com-theme-topline--dark-blue.jpg

The jury spoke and said they had no right to get redress. What moron on the team thought it was even a good idea to ask?  And you want to be pendantic and talk about right for redress as if this was just a broken boat.

you are one of the most agressive, caustic pieces of shit in this forum, perhaps the worst.

i feel sorry for the people in your life that have to live with you.

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19 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Yes indeed you are an arsehole. And a limp dicked oily little toad, but most of all you are a truly stupid cunt. I , like every other person here except you apparently, have no idea if they contributed to the accident or not. I never offered an opinion on that, simply stating the fact that if an investigation had cleared them they had every right to seek redress. So quick are you to scream in mock outrage that you don't even understand what you are flaming about. 

And now here is your card...

 

bizcardmaker-com-theme-topline--dark-blue.jpg

Now that's funny thank you.

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17 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

you are one of the most agressive, caustic pieces of shit in this forum, perhaps the worst.

bizcardmaker-com-theme-topline--dark-blue.jpg

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1 hour ago, bigrpowr said:

yeah man, you are an asshole with the previous comment. your comparison is NOT the same. you obviously have an axe to grind which makes your argument irrelevant . there was really no need for that.

Oh yeah, Sunspot has a real boner for me for some reason. 

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Maybe the fishing boat should be the one asking for redress.

After all they have lost their crew-mate and their entire livelihood due to an undisciplined act by a bunch of incompetent rich cunts playing a game poorly so it would be good to get something by way of redress.

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1 hour ago, sunseeker said:

The jury spoke and said they had no right to get redress.

Wrong. The jury said there was insufficient evidence to grant redress. Very different from "no right".

22 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

How do you seek redress if you have retired? 

By submitting a valid request for redress to the protest desk before the time limit, or after the time limit but in appropriate circumstances to convince the Protest Committee to extend the time limit and consider your request valid. One typically uses a pen to write on a sheet of paper with special markings (a "protest form"), but I can imagine the shore team typed up something nice. A boat may always request redress; there is no requirement in the rules that she finish to do so. (Complete with RRS autistic bold)

On 3/12/2018 at 10:10 PM, LB 15 said:

We can only suppose that the official hearing cleared them of any wrong doing (for one thing the crew aren't sitting in a Chinese prison) and if that is the case then they have every right to claim, and probably be given, redress. 

They are probably more party to the official hearings than we are and used that to inform their decision to request (or maybe just threw it in there to be in before the time limit???). However, not being in prison only means that they were cleared of criminal culpability in the incident. I'm not Chinese lawyer, so I don't know if that's a higher bar than a share of the fault or not, but I'll bet one internet point that it is.

Also it's modern times LB update your troll card. The website should be fuck.me/go/i-love-this-place get hip.

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1 hour ago, cremedelameme said:

A boat may always request redress; there is no requirement in the rules that she finish to do so.

Thanks creme. 

I found this bit about democracy in racing mentioned by Mr Ed pretty interesting, assuming this view of the other teams was presented to the Jury. Not very Chairman Mao considering where they were.

On 13/03/2018 at 11:41 AM, Editor said:

  there was a meeting the other 6 teams had before the hearing.  They felt that basically Vestas didn’t have a leg to stand on as they could not satisfy Rule 62.1 by proving it was “no fault of their own”.

 

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In this 2018 PC world did "not enough evidence" is the same as a 2008 RC telling them to "fuck off you murderous & negligent cunts" 

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I think they got completely fkg reamed, they were adequately lit. as competitors in the race, give them redress. 

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Supreme Leader didn't want the media attention. Short investigation! 

They should post the OB footage so we know they are 100% blameless. 

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Scan - serious question - Why are you so convinced that they are to blame. As far as I understand we don't have nearly enough information to make any kind of assumption. If you know more details, like if the fishing boat was displaying lights, then please share.

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16 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

serious question - Why are you so convinced that they are to blame.

show me one instance where one vessel has been apportioned 100% of the blame ?

 

COLREGS just aren't written that way .

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4 minutes ago, Mid said:

show me one instance where one vessel has been apportioned 100% of the blame ?

 

COLREGS just aren't written that way .

Indeed but the cries of 'Murderous scum' from the SA investigating committee seem to think they are.

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44 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Scan - serious question - Why are you so convinced that they are to blame. As far as I understand we don't have nearly enough information to make any kind of assumption. If you know more details, like if the fishing boat was displaying lights, then please share.

Not Vestas fault, just partially - - travelling too fast, lack of proper lookout or failure to avoid? 

More than that it would take an essay. 

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36 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Indeed but the cries of 'Murderous scum' from the SA investigating committee seem to think they are.

Halve releasede they findengs yette?   Linkey?

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Scan - serious question - Why are you so convinced that they are to blame. As far as I understand we don't have nearly enough information to make any kind of assumption. If you know more details, like if the fishing boat was displaying lights, then please share.

Really ?

FFS Lady Boy you "supposedly" moonlight as some sort of EXPERT WITNESS/ INSTRUCTOR and you have to ask that question.

 

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Scan - serious question - Why are you so convinced that they are to blame. As far as I understand we don't have nearly enough information to make any kind of assumption. If you know more details, like if the fishing boat was displaying lights, then please share.

LB, serious question, what about the lights on the fishing boat?  If they were  just poorly maintained or were below the recommended lumins ... so what?

 

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The point I was trying to make is that the actions of the boat and crew of Vestas reflect on the sponsor and can have some unintended consequences.

Sponsors are looking for ROI when they get into events like this. Right now Vestas' ROI has a body count. They can't be thrilled that on top of all this, one of their employees aka skipper of the boat they're paying for, is just bringing more bad press.

Sponsors pay the bills. In 2007 Rabobank walked away from pro cycling thanks to their bad press.

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random- so what? maybe weak lights wouldn't stand out enough, especially in the vicinity of busy coastal waters. safety first, always, to be suitably visible is safety 101. it's Cub Scouts stuff, like not having holes in your boat.

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Is there an excuse for a collision with a fishing boat?

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9 minutes ago, random said:

Is there an excuse for a collision with a fishing boat?

without malice? sure, there's prolly a lot of 'excuses'.

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What has Malice got to do with a collision at sea?

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it was accidental. accidents happen because of carelessness, and probably not Vestas'. lights, do you have any?

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uh huh

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it'd be great if those guys on vestas had the ability to echo locate like a bat, but alas, they didn't.

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Accidents happen, fishermen get their legs chopped off by rich white cunts.  Shit happens.

So how are the points looking?

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how are the points looking? ask reality, he'll make real clear, he'll say there's no guarantees in life, so will I.

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4 hours ago, SCANAS said:

They should post the OB footage so we know they are 100% blameless

I agree Scan. The IJ saw that footage of a fishing boat with only 3, not the statutory 8 of 10 people smoking and who then chased Vestas down at 20k by rowing like buggery and rammed her..but those IJ pricks have just ignored all that.

Cover up.

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Jesus and I though I speak some shit on here.

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Those other guys who got rescued just out there for a swim Jack?

What should you do when you encounter heavy traffic that you can't pick up in time? 

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2 hours ago, overlay said:

Really ?

FFS Lady Boy you "supposedly" moonlight as some sort of EXPERT WITNESS/ INSTRUCTOR and you have to ask that question.

 

Here is a question you seem to be avoiding answering- As one of the great experts on the B2G race, exactly how many have you done?

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