Mid

Gina Haspel - allegedly ran secret prison in Thailand

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Trump's pick for new CIA chief allegedly ran secret prison in Thailand

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Intelligence officers who served with her, and congressional officials said that in 2002, during Republican President George W. Bush's administration, she was responsible for the secret prison code-named "Cat's Eye."

Two suspected members of the al-Qaeda militant group, Zayn al-Abidin Muhammed Hussein, better known as Abu Zubaida, and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, were subjected to waterboarding and other harsh interrogation techniques at the facility in 2002.

An exhaustive Senate report on the program described the frightening toll inflicted. At one point, the report said, Zubaida was left "completely unresponsive, with bubbles rising through his open, full mouth."

Internal CIA memos cited in a Senate report on the agency's interrogation program described agency officials who witnessed the treatment as distraught and concerned about its legality.

"Several on the team (were) profoundly affected," one agency employee wrote, ". . . some to the point of tears and choking up."

 

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/trumps-pick-for-new-cia-chief-allegedly-ran-secret-prison-in-thailand

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McCain: Trump’s CIA pick was involved in ‘one of the darkest chapters in American history’

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“The torture of detainees in U.S. custody during the last decade was one of the darkest chapters in American history,” McCain said. “Ms. Haspel needs to explain the nature and extent of her involvement in the CIA’s interrogation program during the confirmation process.”

Following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the Bush administration “squandered precious moral authority” to get intelligence, McCain said.

 

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/378183-mccain-trumps-cia-pick-was-involved-in-one-of-the-darkest

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tRump will sign of on torture in a heartbeat .

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On 3/14/2018 at 7:59 PM, Mid said:

tRump will sign of on torture in a heartbeat .

Sign off? He's been pushing for it and bragging about it since before the election.

He's going to be WAY sad when he learns he's not allowed to do it to porn stars in the Lincoln bedroom.

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5 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Sign off? He's been pushing for it and bragging about it since before the election.

He's going to be WAY sad when he learns he's not allowed to do it to porn stars in the Lincoln bedroom.

Or have them do it to him. 

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Letter to the Los Angeles Times:

 

To the editor: "Dianne Feinstein and Kamala Harris, California's two Democratic U.S. senators, should support the rule of law by rejecting the nomination of President Trump's pick to head the Central Intelligence Agency, Gina Haspel, who presided over the torturing of detainees at a "black site" in Thailand and then destroyed videotape evidence of these acts. ("Gina Haspel's appointment to run the CIA revives America's dark history of torture," editorial, March 15)

Haspel cannot hide behind the Nazi-era defense, "I was just following orders." In the wake of the Nuremberg trials, the United Nations International Law Commission confirmed that "the fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."

The U.N. Convention Against Torture, in effect at the time of Haspel's conduct, made clear that "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."

Feinstein and Harris should uphold U.S. and international law by voting against the nomination of a person who can credibly be accused of having committed war crimes."

 

Stephen F. Rohde, Los Angeles

The writer is a constitutional lawyer.

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This from 2017 .....................
 

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Gina Haspel, selected by Trump and appointed by CIA director Mike Pompeo on Thursday, reportedly had a leading role in the intelligence agency’s covert post-9/11 programme in which simulated drowning and other painful interrogation techniques were used on detainees overseas.

She briefly ran a black site in Thailand where suspected al-Qaida members Abu Zubaydah and Abd al Rahim al-Nashiri were tortured in 2002, and Haspel later helped carry out an order that the CIA destroy its waterboarding videos, US officials told Reuters and Associated Press on condition of anonymity.

CIA cables on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah at the site, codenamed Cat’s Eye, were declassified last month. They revealed he was waterboarded 83 times in a month and had his head repeatedly slammed into walls.

Interrogators also used sleep deprivation and kept Abu Zubaydah in a “large box”, the documents said. His captors later decided he held no useful intelligence.

Michael Morell, former deputy director of the CIA, said in an article endorsing Haspel on Thursday that she had drafted a cable instructing a “field station” to destroy videotapes of CIA interrogations.

“She did so at the request of her direct supervisor and believing that it was lawful to do so. I personally led an accountability exercise that cleared Haspel of any wrongdoing in the case,” he wrote.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/03/cia-deputy-director-gina-haspel-linked-torture-thailand-black-site

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Guatemala shows why the CIA must be held accountable for torture

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Of course, the irony is that many of the senior military officers on trial now in Guatemala are graduates of the U.S. Army School of the Americas. So, in a sense, the U.S. is confronting its own past in Guatemala.

If only we could apply this logic to ourselves. Guatemala and the U.S. are bound by the U.N. Convention Against Torture, which bans torture, without exceptions, and requires that torturers be prosecuted.

At least 100 people died from torture inflicted at U.S. detention facilities around the world after 2001, according to the American Civil Liberties Union and Human Rights Watch. Yet, a 6,000-page Senate Intelligence Committee report on the CIA's detention and interrogation program, completed in 2014, remains mostly classified.

Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-Calif.), who led the Senate torture investigation, has called on the CIA to declassify records on Haspel's involvement in the CIA's rendition, detention and torture program. McCain asked Haspel to commit to declassifying the 2014 Senate report on torture. These are important steps.

Yet, we know enough about Haspel's record to conclude that she is a dangerous pick for CIA chief. The Senate must reject her nomination.

What we know may be enough for the Justice Department to launch a probe into Haspel's actions at the CIA, especially her potential role in covering up evidence. 

If Guatemala can prosecute its torturers and rebuild the rule of law, so can we.

 

http://thehill.com/opinion/international/381043-guatemala-shows-why-the-cia-must-be-held-accountable-for-torture

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Gina Haspel’s nomination to head CIA faces some opposition in Senate

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In conversations with senators and their staff ahead of Haspel’s confirmation hearing, which has yet to be scheduled, she has acknowledged that she drafted a cable in 2005 ordering CIA officers to destroy tapes of the interrogation of two suspected terrorists. The interrogation sessions included waterboarding, which is widely considered a form of torture.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/gina-haspels-nomination-to-head-cia-faces-some-opposition-in-senate/2018/04/13/3efeaab8-3f31-11e8-a7d1-e4efec6389f0_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4236f0a9e077

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It is always fun to adjudicate a 2001 event in 2018.  

Refresh my memory , at the time didn’t the AG or some other legal—beagle say “enhanced interrogation” was okay?  Anyone else lose friend that day?  Anyone remember how they felt back then?

This is like someone looking at a bar right and saying “hey he isn’t fighting fair.”

Approve or don’t approve her.  But let’s not try to litigate and analyze all the dark things the CIA does.

 

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34 minutes ago, Snore said:

But let’s not try to litigate and analyze all the dark things the CIA does.

index.jpg.d1f4c1ebe5a3456cf8fe56662e8a21ec.jpg

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1 hour ago, Mid said:

index.jpg.d1f4c1ebe5a3456cf8fe56662e8a21ec.jpg

 

Yup, freely confess to not wanting to know.

 

In a world where Russia wipes poison on the door knob of someone they want to kill- only an idiot fights by the Marques of  Queensbury rules.  While there should be some clear limits, sometimes I want  the CIA to play at the very edge of those limits.

 

Once again, at that time there was a legal opinion that “enhanced interrogation” was okay.  The directive was rescinded and the process stopped.

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So as long as someone in authority says it's O/K then it is?

You'd "follow orders" very well.

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Rules are for civilized people.

When you're dealing with suicidal maniacs intent on destroying anyone who doesn't share their beliefs, rules go out the window. Sometimes the "civilized" become monsters themselves in the process.

This is the reality of the world, far from your comfortable peaceful affluent suburb. Someone you  really wouldn't like is keeping you safe.

 

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5 hours ago, Happy said:

Rules are for civilized people.

When you're dealing with suicidal maniacs intent on destroying anyone who doesn't share their beliefs, rules go out the window. Sometimes the "civilized" become monsters themselves in the process.

This is the reality of the world, far from your comfortable peaceful affluent suburb. Someone you  really wouldn't like is keeping you safe.

 

Well said.  Sounds like the perfect candidate for CIA.  

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Gina Haspel considered withdrawing as CIA nominee, sources say

Haspel decided to go ahead with Wednesday's confirmation hearing after a weekend phone call with President Donald Trump.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/gina-haspel-considered-withdrawing-cia-nominee-sources-say-n871771

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2 hours ago, Mid said:

Untitled.jpg.af2660dfad00712999173a121fe846bc.jpg

Great tweet ,  SPOT ON!   

Glad to see President Trump is supporting his highly qualified candidate.  

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Gina is a sadistic piece of shit who got off torturing people and now she gets a promotion. God Bless America. This bitch should be in prison along with Trump.

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29 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Gina is a sadistic piece of shit who got off torturing people and now she gets a promotion. God Bless America. This bitch should be in prison along with Trump.

You do understand that Obama's CIA NOMONEE John Brennan fully supported EIT's and was a lot higher in the CIA when it was happening.  It was brought up during his confirmation hearings.  Oh wait he was nominated by Obama so he got a pass.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/01/does-it-matter-if-john-brennan-was-complicit-in-illegal-torture/266918/

 

President Obama's pick to head the CIA was in a senior position at the spy agency during the Bush years.

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7 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

You do understand that Obama's CIA NOMONEE John Brennan fully supported EIT's and was a lot higher in the CIA when it was happening.  It was brought up during his confirmation hearings.  Oh wait he was nominated by Obama so he got a pass.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/01/does-it-matter-if-john-brennan-was-complicit-in-illegal-torture/266918/

 

President Obama's pick to head the CIA was in a senior position at the spy agency during the Bush years.

Oh, I blame the Democrats for all of this. They sat on their hands when they attained power and didn't clean up this mess, and here we are. You are making excuses for a treasonous bitch, and me whining about torture.

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Just now, badlatitude said:

Oh, I blame the Democrats for all of this. They sat on their hands when they attained power and didn't clean up this mess, and here we are. You are making excuses for a treasonous bitch, and me whining about torture.

If she was a traitor as you are claiming ,why was she not prosecuted over the last decade?  Why wouldn't the same resaons put forth to confirm, Brennan be applied to her?  She was much, much lower on the seniority list, why a harsher standard for her?

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On 3/14/2018 at 3:42 AM, Mid said:

What in this article is actually providing any substantiation that Gina Haspel "presided over the interrogation"?  

 

46 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Gina is a sadistic piece of shit who got off torturing people and now she gets a promotion. God Bless America. This bitch should be in prison along with Trump.

Again - besides the left wing talking points, you have exactly WHAT to substantiate your opinion? 

Can you provide a cite that states what her role and responsibilities were at the time, and that she made the decisions you are accusing her of, or are you just happy to once again run off at the mouth, making baseless accusations in the most vile terms imaginable?  

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Looks like the experts on both sides of the political spectrum fully Support her nomination

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-intelligence-pros-have-swung-behind-the-cias-gina-haspel-1525708965

The more intriguing development, though, lies in a letter of support for Ms. Haspel signed by more than 50 former top national-security and intelligence officials who know her directly, including those six former CIA directors, three former directors of national intelligence and two former secretaries of state. Their experience spans Republican and Democratic administrations alike. The group includes some who have advised the Trump administration (former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger ) and some who are among its most outspoken critics ( John Brennan, who led the CIA under President Barack Obama ).

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2 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:
51 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Gina is a sadistic piece of shit who got off torturing people and now she gets a promotion. God Bless America. This bitch should be in prison along with Trump.

Again - besides the left wing talking points, you have exactly WHAT to substantiate your opinion? 

Can you provide a cite that states what her role and responsibilities were at the time, and that she made the decisions you are accusing her of, or are you just happy to once again run off at the mouth, making baseless accusations in the most vile terms imaginable?  

there is none.  she took over after the fact.  worse accusation against her is records were destroyed under her watch.

I don't think anyone really wants to turn over those rocks

she'll be the next head of the cia, no question 

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12 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

If she was a traitor as you are claiming ,why was she not prosecuted over the last decade?  Why wouldn't the same resaons put forth to confirm, Brennan be applied to her?  She was much, much lower on the seniority list, why a harsher standard for her?

Because she destroyed the evidence.

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10 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

What in this article is actually providing any substantiation that Gina Haspel "presided over the interrogation"?  

 

Again - besides the left wing talking points, you have exactly WHAT to substantiate your opinion? 

Can you provide a cite that states what her role and responsibilities were at the time, and that she made the decisions you are accusing her of, or are you just happy to once again run off at the mouth, making baseless accusations in the most vile terms imaginable?  

Really? Are you admitting you don't know about all this? It has been out there for 16 years, written about, hundreds of times.

Try this:

"Haspel, whom under Pompeo became the agency’s deputy director, briefly ran the off-the-books prison in Thailand used as a torture laboratory for the earliest detained terrorism suspects. There, in 2002—including while Haspel oversaw the so-called black site—the man known as Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times; stuffed into a wooden box barely bigger than a coffin; had his body shackled in painful contorted positions; and had his head slammed into walls.

“If Ms. Haspel seeks to serve at the highest levels of U.S. intelligence, the government can no longer cover up disturbing facts from the past,” Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), a member of the intelligence committee who opposes her nomination, told The Daily Beast in a statement Tuesday.

“Ms. Haspel’s background makes her unsuitable to serve as CIA director. Her nomination must include total transparency about this background,” Wyden added." https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-cia-pick-gina-haspel-ran-a-laboratory-for-torture

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1 minute ago, badlatitude said:

Really? Are you admitting you don't know about all this? It has been out there for 16 years, written about, hundreds of times.

Try this:

"Haspel, whom under Pompeo became the agency’s deputy director, briefly ran the off-the-books prison in Thailand used as a torture laboratory for the earliest detained terrorism suspects. There, in 2002—including while Haspel oversaw the so-called black site—the man known as Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times; stuffed into a wooden box barely bigger than a coffin; had his body shackled in painful contorted positions; and had his head slammed into walls.

“If Ms. Haspel seeks to serve at the highest levels of U.S. intelligence, the government can no longer cover up disturbing facts from the past,” Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), a member of the intelligence committee who opposes her nomination, told The Daily Beast in a statement Tuesday.

“Ms. Haspel’s background makes her unsuitable to serve as CIA director. Her nomination must include total transparency about this background,” Wyden added." https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-cia-pick-gina-haspel-ran-a-laboratory-for-torture

Why was Brennan approved?  He was a senior CIA official when this was going on.  Now years later you have issues with someone who was at a much lower position.

A classic Double standard

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13 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Because she destroyed the evidence.

Well there goes that talking point.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/cia-declassifies-memo-clearing-haspel-of-responsibility-for-destroying-evidence/2018/04/20/a79e9bfc-44de-11e8-bba2-0976a82b05a2_story.html?utm_term=.bf901800a337

The memo, which former CIA deputy director Michael Morell wrote in 2011, is the result of a disciplinary review in which he “found no fault with the performance of Ms. Haspel” — primarily because she drafted the cable “on the direct orders” of her superior and did not release it herself.

“It was not her decision to destroy the tapes,” Morell wrote in the declassified document, which the CIA released Friday in response to requests from members of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

 

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Just now, TMSAIL said:

Why was Brennan approved?  He was a senior CIA official when this was going on.  Now years later you have issues with someone who was at a much lower position.

A classic Double standard

I had no personal hand in John Brennan, a Republican, from heading the CIA. He did his dirty duty as CIA head during the Bush Administration. Obama made him National Security Advisor which requires no confirmation. The Republican-led Senate okayed his promotion to the head of CIA in 2013.

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3 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Really? Are you admitting you don't know about all this? It has been out there for 16 years, written about, hundreds of times.

Try this:

"Haspel, whom under Pompeo became the agency’s deputy director, briefly ran the off-the-books prison in Thailand used as a torture laboratory for the earliest detained terrorism suspects. There, in 2002—including while Haspel oversaw the so-called black site—the man known as Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times; stuffed into a wooden box barely bigger than a coffin; had his body shackled in painful contorted positions; and had his head slammed into walls.

“If Ms. Haspel seeks to serve at the highest levels of U.S. intelligence, the government can no longer cover up disturbing facts from the past,” Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), a member of the intelligence committee who opposes her nomination, told The Daily Beast in a statement Tuesday.

“Ms. Haspel’s background makes her unsuitable to serve as CIA director. Her nomination must include total transparency about this background,” Wyden added." https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-cia-pick-gina-haspel-ran-a-laboratory-for-torture

I've seen nothing that substantiates the claim - a Democratic senator trying to get face time by making scurrilous claims about an opposition nominee isn't what I'd consider a credible source.  The link in your cite mentions nothing about Gina Haspel.  The incidents are well known - I've personally been in Abu Ghraib prison (working, not as an inmate) - but, nothing that's been shared since Gina Haspel's nomination corroborates the claims that she had anything to do with the Enhanced Interrogations. 

 If it's been "out there" for 16 years - then I'm sure you can help me fill in the gaps in my understanding w/r/t her culpability. 

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1 minute ago, TMSAIL said:

Well there goes that talking point.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cia-memo-says-gina-haspel-isnt-to-blame-for-destroyed-interrogation-tapes-1524265211?mod=article_inline

CIA Memo Says Gina Haspel Isn’t to Blame for Destroyed Interrogation Tapes

Declassified 2011 report comes as director nominee faces confirmation battle

 

April 20, 2018 7:00 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON—The Central Intelligence Agency on Friday released a six-year-old internal memo saying Gina Haspel wasn’t to blame for the destruction of videotaped interrogations of terror suspects

Since when is the head of the interrogation black site not held accountable?

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1 minute ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I've seen nothing that substantiates the claim - a Democratic senator trying to get face time by making scurrilous claims about an opposition nominee isn't what I'd consider a credible source.  The link in your cite mentions nothing about Gina Haspel.  The incidents are well known - I've personally been in Abu Ghraib prison (working, not as an inmate) - but, nothing that's been shared since Gina Haspel's nomination corroborates the claims that she had anything to do with the Enhanced Interrogations. 

 If it's been "out there" for 16 years - then I'm sure you can help me fill in the gaps in my understanding w/r/t her culpability. 

The incident(s) occurred in Thailand, not Iraq. There's much written about it, if there weren't we wouldn't be discussing it today.

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Just now, badlatitude said:

The incident(s) occurred in Thailand, not Iraq. There's much written about it, if there weren't we wouldn't be discussing it today.

Waitaminute - It's either been "out there for 16 years, and mentioned hundreds of times" or it hasn't.   You made several scurrilous claims, and I think that you formed your opinion based upon some unsubstantiated grandstanding bullshit - but, if I'm mistaken and there is proof that Gina Haspel is responsible for what you claim?  I'll be happy to apologize. 

 

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6 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Since when is the head of the interrogation black site not held accountable?

When there is a hearing where she is found to be not at fault!  She wasn't the head of the site when the tapes were destroyed.  She simply passed on her bosses orders

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2 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Waitaminute - It's either been "out there for 16 years, and mentioned hundreds of times" or it hasn't.   You made several scurrilous claims, and I think that you formed your opinion based upon some unsubstantiated grandstanding bullshit - but, if I'm mistaken and there is proof that Gina Haspel is responsible for what you claim?  I'll be happy to apologize. 

 

She wasn't in charge of that site or any other when the tapes were ordered to be destroyed.  It was her boss that gave the order.  An internal review cleared her, but that isn't enough for some.

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2 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Waitaminute - It's either been "out there for 16 years, and mentioned hundreds of times" or it hasn't.   You made several scurrilous claims, and I think that you formed your opinion based upon some unsubstantiated grandstanding bullshit - but, if I'm mistaken and there is proof that Gina Haspel is responsible for what you claim?  I'll be happy to apologize. 

 

Please, your ignorant replies are not appreciated. Google it, get educated, come back and have a civil conversation. This is not raising stink without good reason, these Senators, these foreign governments who hold arrest warrants over Gina Haspel are not making things up.

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4 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

When there is a hearing where she is found to be not at fault!  She wasn't the head of the site when the tapes were destroyed.  She simply passed on her bosses orders

Dick Cheney just passed on orders from his boss too.

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4 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Please, your ignorant replies are not appreciated. Google it, get educated, come back and have a civil conversation. This is not raising stink without good reason, these Senators, these foreign governments who hold arrest warrants over Gina Haspel are not making things up.

Wow you really have been surfing some far out sites in order to make false claims

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-there-a-warrant-for-cia-nominee-gina-haspels-arrest/

CLAIM

CIA Deputy Director Gina Haspel has a warrant for her arrest in Germany.

RATING

rating-false.png FALSE

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2 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Please, your ignorant replies are not appreciated. Google it, get educated, come back and have a civil conversation. This is not raising stink without good reason, these Senators, these foreign governments who hold arrest warrants over Gina Haspel are not making things up.

Then provide the cites.   I still think that you saw a Republican nominee - and wet your pants in giddiness with the idea that she is a tainted candidate.  I haven't read anything that supports your supposition - as a matter of fact, everything that I'm reading from people who actually DO know, suggests that she's a competent, considerate professional.  If, as you've claimed, have other information that supports the counter?  Share it.

1 hour ago, badlatitude said:

Gina is a sadistic piece of shit who got off torturing people and now she gets a promotion. God Bless America. This bitch should be in prison along with Trump.

  And *my* comment is ignorant?   That's funny. 

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At the time, when they heard of the "enhanced interrogations", most citizens of America either said, "GOOD! They deserve it!" or "GOOD, we might get solid intel", having watched serial episodes of "24" and understanding that the bomb only gets defused if you throw the rulebook out the window, after 12-15 seconds of deep soul searching.

A lot of qualified people, especially FBI & NYPD types, found they could get more information, and suffer fewer PTSD complaints, by using boring old interview and crosscheck and reinterview techniques.

A bunch of Americans said, "Meh" and worried about other problems, like the thousands dying in the insurgency and the hundreds of US Servicemen killed & maimed. It was a time of death and injury and angst, and this issue only steadily hit the front page long after the photos and such hit the papers from Abu Ghraib Prison.

An erudite few recognized the moral peril and pointed it out in real time, and a few Americans who have suffered at the hands of evil captors spoke out effectively (albeit fruitlessly) against the policy.

 In the end, the harsh interrogations and the detestable treatment of prisoners gave America a black eye, and were hugely detrimental to the mission. We developed little actionable intelligence, gained enemies, and burned the rest of the international good will we enjoyed after 9/11.

I'd like to hear recognition of this in Mz Haspel's testimony. We need a catharsis, a national moral reckoning and see that a proper after action review was conducted by the CIA to create safeguards against revenge and moral hazard becoming policy. This is an opportunity for America to reestablish a moral foundation. As a society, we need a few leaders to step up and create a such underpinnings and make "doing the right thing" an imperative for the country, if only because it is far more effective than behaving like our enemies.

This is such an opportunity. I hope Mz Haspel takes full advantage of it.

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4 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Dick Cheney just passed on orders from his boss too.

Not sure what your point is?  Has Dick Channey been found guilty of any wrong doing?  Or his Boss President Bush, for that matter?   Not lefty hatred for men that served thair country under the wrong lette,r actual charges.

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Just now, phillysailor said:

At the time, when they heard of the "enhanced interrogations", most of America either said, "GOOD! They deserve it!" or "GOOD, we might get solid intel, having watched serial episodes of "24" and understanding that the bomb only gets defused if you throw the rulebook out the window, after 12-15 seconds of deep soul searching.

A lot of qualified people, especially FBI & NYPD types, found they could get more information, and suffer fewer PTSD complaints, by using boring old interview and crosscheck and reinterview techniques.

A bunch of Americans said, "Meh" and worried about other problems, like the thousands dying in the insurgency and the hundreds of US Servicemen killed & maimed. It was a time of death and injury and angst, and this issue only steadily hit the front page long after the photos and such hit the papers from Abu Ghraib Prison.

An erudite few recognized the moral peril and pointed it out in real time, and a few Americans who have suffered at the hands of evil captors spoke out effectively (albeit fruitlessly) against the policy.

 In the end, the harsh interrogations and the detestable treatment of prisoners gave America a black eye, and were hugely detrimental to the mission. We developed little actionable intelligence, gained enemies, and burned the rest of the international good will we enjoyed after 9/11.

I'd like to hear recognition of this in Mz Haspel's testimony. We need a catharsis, a national moral reckoning and see that a proper after action review was conducted by the CIA to create safeguards against revenge and moral hazard becoming policy. This is an opportunity for America to reestablish a moral foundation. As a society, we need a few leaders to step up and create a such underpinnings and make "doing the right thing" an imperative for the country, if only because it is far more effective than behaving like our enemies.

This is such an opportunity. I hope Mz Haspel takes full advantage of it.

I agree with much of what you had to say. Gina Haspel needs to be heard from and heard from without the traditional spin.

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Just now, TMSAIL said:

Not sure what your point is?  Has Dick Channey been found guilty of any wrong doing?  Or his Boss President Bush, for that matter?   Not lefty hatred for men that served thair country under the wrong lette,r actual charges.

I guess we've gone full circle. I still blame the Dems for not cleaning up the shit. Had they done their jobs, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation.

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1 minute ago, phillysailor said:

At the time, when they heard of the "enhanced interrogations", most of America either said, "GOOD! They deserve it!" or "GOOD, we might get solid intel, having watched serial episodes of "24" and understanding that the bomb only gets defused if you throw the rulebook out the window, after 12-15 seconds of deep soul searching.

A lot of qualified people, especially FBI & NYPD types, found they could get more information, and suffer fewer PTSD complaints, by using boring old interview and crosscheck and reinterview techniques.

A bunch of Americans said, "Meh" and worried about other problems, like the thousands dying in the insurgency and the hundreds of US Servicemen killed & maimed. It was a time of death and injury and angst, and this issue only steadily hit the front page long after the photos and such hit the papers from Abu Ghraib Prison.

An erudite few recognized the moral peril and pointed it out in real time, and a few Americans who have suffered at the hands of evil captors spoke out effectively (albeit fruitlessly) against the policy.

 In the end, the harsh interrogations and the detestable treatment of prisoners gave America a black eye, and were hugely detrimental to the mission. We developed little actionable intelligence, gained enemies, and burned the rest of the international good will we enjoyed after 9/11.

I'd like to hear recognition of this in Mz Haspel's testimony. We need a catharsis, a national moral reckoning and see that a proper after action review was conducted by the CIA to create safeguards against revenge and moral hazard becoming policy. This is an opportunity for America to reestablish a moral foundation. As a society, we need a few leaders to step up and create a such underpinnings and make "doing the right thing" an imperative for the country, if only because it is far more effective than behaving like our enemies.

This is such an opportunity. I hope Mz Haspel takes full advantage of it.

Well said, That was my point with Brennan,  he was asked many of the same questions you want asked, when he was confirmed as CIA director.  I see nothing wrong with those same questions being posed to Ms. Haspel. 

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6 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Then provide the cites.   I still think that you saw a Republican nominee - and wet your pants in giddiness with the idea that she is a tainted candidate.  I haven't read anything that supports your supposition - as a matter of fact, everything that I'm reading from people who actually DO know, suggests that she's a competent, considerate professional.  If, as you've claimed, have other information that supports the counter?  Share it.

  And *my* comment is ignorant?   That's funny. 

I'm not offering courses this year, you'll have to hit the library for this one or fail.

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3 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

At the time, when they heard of the "enhanced interrogations", most citizens of America either said, "GOOD! They deserve it!" or "GOOD, we might get solid intel", having watched serial episodes of "24" and understanding that the bomb only gets defused if you throw the rulebook out the window, after 12-15 seconds of deep soul searching.

A lot of qualified people, especially FBI & NYPD types, found they could get more information, and suffer fewer PTSD complaints, by using boring old interview and crosscheck and reinterview techniques.

A bunch of Americans said, "Meh" and worried about other problems, like the thousands dying in the insurgency and the hundreds of US Servicemen killed & maimed. It was a time of death and injury and angst, and this issue only steadily hit the front page long after the photos and such hit the papers from Abu Ghraib Prison.

An erudite few recognized the moral peril and pointed it out in real time, and a few Americans who have suffered at the hands of evil captors spoke out effectively (albeit fruitlessly) against the policy.

 In the end, the harsh interrogations and the detestable treatment of prisoners gave America a black eye, and were hugely detrimental to the mission. We developed little actionable intelligence, gained enemies, and burned the rest of the international good will we enjoyed after 9/11.

I'd like to hear recognition of this in Mz Haspel's testimony. We need a catharsis, a national moral reckoning and see that a proper after action review was conducted by the CIA to create safeguards against revenge and moral hazard becoming policy. This is an opportunity for America to reestablish a moral foundation. As a society, we need a few leaders to step up and create a such underpinnings and make "doing the right thing" an imperative for the country, if only because it is far more effective than behaving like our enemies.

This is such an opportunity. I hope Mz Haspel takes full advantage of it.

A reasonable position - and to the point that doing so doesn't improperly disclose sources and methods?   I'd agree. 

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Just now, badlatitude said:

I'm not offering courses this year, you'll have to hit the library for this one or fail.

Just what I thought - you got nuttin.  Thanks for the confirmation. 

 

1 hour ago, badlatitude said:

Gina is a sadistic piece of shit who got off torturing people and now she gets a promotion. God Bless America. This bitch should be in prison along with Trump.

 

 

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So, what's the general feeling on waterboarding... is it torture? Should America use it on our prisoners?

 

I'd say it's a version of torture, one that instills hopelessness, fear, the sensation of dying in agony. Because it does not leave marks, it is more difficult to prove than other, more destructive forms of torture. In that sense, it is less harmful than forms of torture which destroy body image or function... scars and injuries serve as a physical reminder of the humiliation and violence for years after. But just as rape victims describe permanent psychological trauma, so do victims of waterboarding.

I don't want people serving my country being taught and expected to perform torture. I do not think it effective, nor do I think the country will benefit from it's use, in the end.

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As noted above, being nice is for civilized people. Like Canadians and other pleasant folk. Tea and crumpets, and la ti da. Cucumber sandwiches.

Real evil lives under rocks. No rules. Equating the Nuremburg situation is apples to nanoparticles. There is nothing nice about fighting and killing yet it has to be done. Torturing is a tool. Nothing at all like killing millions of people cuz you don't like them.

Ms. Haspel is a career spy,  a perfect choice.

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On Gina Haspel and Trump's apparent ambitions to become torturer-in-chief

Quote

Before Haspel can be confirmed as director, she needs to explain clearly and convincingly to the Senate and the American people what her role was during that shameful period in history. She must also repudiate torture as indefensible and give the Senate unequivocal assurances that even if Trump were to order the resumption of such odious and illegal practices, she would refuse to comply.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-cia-haspel-trump-20180507-story.html

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28 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

As noted above, being nice is for civilized people. Like Canadians and other pleasant folk. Tea and crumpets, and la ti da. Cucumber sandwiches.

Real evil lives under rocks. No rules. Equating the Nuremburg situation is apples to nanoparticles. There is nothing nice about fighting and killing yet it has to be done. Torturing is a tool. Nothing at all like killing millions of people cuz you don't like them.

Ms. Haspel is a career spy,  a perfect choice.

Hey Blue, any evidence torture was effective in support of our overall mission? 

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2 hours ago, TMSAIL said:

She wasn't in charge of that site or any other when the tapes were ordered to be destroyed.  It was her boss that gave the order.  An internal review cleared her, but that isn't enough for some.

Instead of pushing back on the illegal and unethical order to destroy evidence, she destroyed the evidence, or passed along the order to destroy evidence.

"I was just following orders" is not a defense.

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23 minutes ago, another 505 sailor said:

Instead of pushing back on the illegal and unethical order to destroy evidence, she destroyed the evidence, or passed along the order to destroy evidence.

"I was just following orders" is not a defense.

Then take it up with those that actually destroyed the tapes.  Hint:  It wasn’t her.   In addition she was cleared of any wrong doing by a review board.  I’ll take their word over the talking points.  

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58 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

As noted above, being nice is for civilized people. Like Canadians and other pleasant folk. Tea and crumpets, and la ti da. Cucumber sandwiches.

Real evil lives under rocks. No rules. Equating the Nuremburg situation is apples to nanoparticles. There is nothing nice about fighting and killing yet it has to be done. Torturing is a tool. Nothing at all like killing millions of people cuz you don't like them.

Ms. Haspel is a career spy,  a perfect choice.

So the USA is a nation of laws, except when we aren't.  And we don't condone torture except when it's necessary.  Got it.

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1 minute ago, TMSAIL said:

Then take it up with those that actually destroyed the tapes.  Hint:  It wasn’t her.   In addition she was cleared of any wrong doing be a review board.  I’ll take their word over the talking points.  

Instead of pushing back, she passed along the order.

That she was cleared does not mean what she did was legal.

Or ethical.

Destruction of evidence. I doubt you're ok with that.

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28 minutes ago, another 505 sailor said:

Instead of pushing back, she passed along the order.

That she was cleared does not mean what she did was legal.

Or ethical.

Destruction of evidence. I doubt you're ok with that.

Yes Her direct boss issued the order.   In 2018 is it viewed as wrong and unethical.   At the time 2005 it was considered the correct move by some at the CIA   Plenty of serving people involved in that decision including John Breenan Obama’s CIA DIRECTOR   Why would a assistant be considered unacceptable when her bosses and higher ups were excused?

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12 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

Yes Her direct boss issued the order.   In 2018 is it viewed as wrong and unethical.   At the time 2005 it was considered the correct move by some at the CIA   Plenty of serving peoplE  involved in that decision including John Breenan Obama’s CIA DIRECTOR   Why would a assistant be considered unacceptable when her bosses and higher ups were excused?

  

I thought we were discussing Haspel, not her boss.

she passed along an order to destroy evidence.

Do you wonder why the high ups in the CIA thought it would be a good idea to destroy evidence? Maybe because they didn't want their subordinates charged with crimes. Because maybe the subordinates' defense would have been they were just following orders?

I find it hard to believe you are defending the destruction and destructors of evidence.

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3 minutes ago, another 505 sailor said:

I thought we were discussing Haspel, not her boss.

she passed along an order to destroy evidence.

Do you wonder why the high ups in the CIA thought it would be a good idea to destroy evidence? Maybe because they didn't want their subordinates charged with crimes. Because maybe the subordinates' defense would have been they were just following orders?

I find it hard to believe you are defending the destruction and destructors of evidence.

I’m not.  Just applying the same standards, as they were applied to previous CIA personal when nominated for positions in the US government.    What did she do differently? You do understand that their was an investigation during the Obama administration that cleared her of any wrong doing.  Why so quick to dismiss those findings?  

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1 hour ago, phillysailor said:

Hey Blue, any evidence torture was effective in support of our overall mission? 

Yeah. 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

I’m not.  Just applying the same standards, as they were applied to previous CIA personal when nominated for positions in the US government.    What did she do differently? You do understand that their was an investigation during the Obama administration that cleared her of any wrong doing.  Why so quick to dismiss those findings?  

No, let's start fresh. No prior history, no comparisons.

Do you want a destroyer of evidence to lead the CIA? It's a yes or no question.

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7 minutes ago, another 505 sailor said:

No, let's start fresh. No prior history, no comparisons.

Do you want a destroyer of evidence to lead the CIA? It's a yes or no question.

If that question applied to her directly, No.  But it doesn’t so Yes, she should and most likely will be confirmed. 

50 current and former members of the intelligence community both Democrats and Republicans, supporters of Trump and vocal critics of the President have signed a letter supporting her nomination.  

I’ll go with their recommendation rather than whispered innuendo from the left. 

 

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5 hours ago, TMSAIL said:
8 hours ago, Mid said:

Untitled.jpg.af2660dfad00712999173a121fe846bc.jpg

Great tweet ,  SPOT ON!   

Glad to see President Trump is supporting his highly qualified candidate.  

You are revolting.

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Just now, B.J. Porter said:

You are revolting.

Thanks. I try to piss off the Zeolots every once in awhile. 

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2 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

As noted above, being nice is for civilized people. Like Canadians and other pleasant folk. Tea and crumpets, and la ti da. Cucumber sandwiches.

Real evil lives under rocks. No rules. Equating the Nuremburg situation is apples to nanoparticles. There is nothing nice about fighting and killing yet it has to be done. Torturing is a tool. Nothing at all like killing millions of people cuz you don't like them.

Ms. Haspel is a career spy,  a perfect choice.

So we WIN by becoming evil ourselves? Excellent!

What fabulous prizes do we win by sacrificing our morals, our principles, and our international reputation?

 

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11 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:
13 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

You are revolting.

Thanks. I try to piss off the Zeolots every once in awhile. 

The amorality of the positions you are supporting is really repellent.

I'm glad you are getting off by sending our country down the moral toilet, it suits you.

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She will probably be confirmed, and the United States will fight all future wars from the gutter. I find it very disheartening that our representatives are helping to lend dignity and respect to an organization that is probably the most evil in all of history. 

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4 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

The amorality of the positions you are supporting are really repellent.

I'm glad you are getting off by sending our country down the moral toilet, it suits you.

Care to clarify?  Did you object to John Brennan, you know Obama’s CIA director who was a whole lot senior to Gina.   

Was he a threat to our country going down the moral toilet?  

 

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1 hour ago, TMSAIL said:
1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

The amorality of the positions you are supporting are really repellent.

I'm glad you are getting off by sending our country down the moral toilet, it suits you.

Care to clarify?  Did you object to John Brennan, you know Obama’s CIA director who was a whole lot senior to Gina.   

Was he a threat to our country going down the moral toilet?  

 

I objected to the CIA torturing people from day one and anyone involved in it. I've been firmly opposed to it since word first broke of it, and if you can't recollect that from arguments back in the day, well, you're dimmer than I thought.

Once upon a time, we were the white hats. The Good Guys. The "Shining City on a Hill" to set an example for others with our conduct.

But you guys are perfectly fine going over to the dark side if it expedites the end.

Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine thought they were doing the right thing bringing order to the galaxy. So did Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot. Our enemies that you are willing to debase ourselves to defeat firmly believe God is on their side, too.

If we must BE evil to defeat evil, what have we accomplished? What have we one? We've replaced one amoral murderous regime with another one.

You are perfectly down with that, so long as the ends justify the means. I am not.

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

So we WIN by becoming evil ourselves? Excellent!

What fabulous prizes do we win by sacrificing our morals, our principles, and our international reputation?

 

A cookie.

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As someone once asked in similar circumstances "What are we fighting FOR"?

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24 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I objected to the CIA torturing people from day one and anyone involved in it. I've been firmly opposed to it since word first broke of it, and if you can't recollect that from arguments back in the day, well, you're dimmer than I thought.

Once upon a time, we were the white hats. The Good Guys. The "Shining City on a Hill" to set an example for others with our conduct.

But you guys are perfectly fine going over to the dark side if it expedites the end.

Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine thought they were doing the right thing bringing order to the galaxy. So did Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot. Our enemies that you are willing to debase ourselves to defeat firmly believe God is on their side, too.

If we must BE evil to defeat evil, what have we accomplished? What have we one? We've replaced one amoral murderous regime with another one.

You are perfectly down with that, so long as the ends justify the means. I am not.

Wow nice rant.  No one is talking about restarting water boarding or other enhanced interrogation.  I like you do not want out country to go down that path again.  I also do not want Americans put in camps because of their heritage like Japanese Americans were.  Nor do I want to go back to slavery.  Hell I’m glad we don’t hold duals anymore either.  I agree with Philly I know shocked me too.  Ask her the questions needed to assure the committee and the public that she will never go down that path.  BUT I see no reason she should be held to a different standard than previous CIA confirmations, especially John Brennan. 

Love the Star Wars reference.  You do understand that was fiction at the very least it was in a galaxy far far away 

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20 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I objected to the CIA torturing people from day one and anyone involved in it. I've been firmly opposed to it since word first broke of it, and if you can't recollect that from arguments back in the day, well, you're dimmer than I thought.

Once upon a time, we were the white hats. The Good Guys. The "Shining City on a Hill" to set an example for others with our conduct.

But you guys are perfectly fine going over to the dark side if it expedites the end.

Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine thought they were doing the right thing bringing order to the galaxy. So did Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot. Our enemies that you are willing to debase ourselves to defeat firmly believe God is on their side, too.

If we must BE evil to defeat evil, what have we accomplished? What have we one? We've replaced one amoral murderous regime with another one.

You are perfectly down with that, so long as the ends justify the means. I am not.

We stand a real possibility of a terrorist attack in the runup to our midterms. It's bad enough someone like Donald Trump is in charge to handle it, but it's even more dangerous when you have someone like Gina Haspel in charge and has no conscience to blunt Donald Trump but is deigned to enact the worst possible civil rights violations in the ensuing madness. You have Trump willing to toss people into Gitmo, the CIA willing to waterboard, reopen black sites, close our borders, surveil people without warrants, revisit internment camps, and suspend the rule of law.

All it takes is an assault on our country serious enough to set it off, and these two hyenas would love to start dismantling our civil liberties in the ensuing process.

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Enhanced interrogation - nice euphemism for torture.

Collateral damage - dead civilians.

Acceptable losses - we can live with that many bodies.

 

Who thinks up these kind of expressions? There has to be a specific name behind each one of them.

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7 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

Wow nice rant.  No one is talking about restarting water boarding or other enhanced interrogation.  I like you do not want out country to go down that path again.  I also do not want Americans put in camps because of their heritage like Japanese Americans were.  Nor do I want to go back to slavery.  Hell I’m glad we don’t hold duals anymore either.  I agree with Philly I know shocked me too.  Ask her the questions needed to assure the committee and the public that she will never go down that path.  BUT I see no reason she should be held to a different standard than previous CIA confirmations, especially John Brennan. 

Love the Star Wars reference.  You do understand that was fiction at the very least it was in a galaxy far far away 

You aren't fooling anybody.  You would go along with anything Trump does.  

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